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Old 12th September 2017, 02:23 PM   #2361
Agatha
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I'm not speaking as a moderator in this post, just as a participant in the thread so this post carries no more weight than any other post made by an ISF member.

Jabba, for the love of everything you hold dear, please return to the topic of your immortality. Please address the responses you are getting instead of copypasting lists over and over again.

This derail into the origin of the universe and your personal ability to make sense of the evidence we have for it is nothing to do with your arguments for immortality.
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Old 12th September 2017, 02:32 PM   #2362
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
It has taken you five years to NOT address any of the fatal flaws in your argument. Why are you so against taking a week to actually address them?
Or an hour. I really just want an hour. With a brief summary in hand -- an outline of how Jabba plans to address his critics on every point on the table -- we could conceivably endure quite a lengthy and detailed foray into the various sub-topics. But without that high-level assurance of a plan, we have little choice but to characterize the fine-toothed picking as a distraction from what he has come to realize is a losing argument. I've given Jabba leave to postpone the sub-issues. In fact, I've given Jabba explicit instructions not to include the sub-issues. I've done this with the intent of paring down the assignment to something that can be done in an hour or less. And because I've done that, I expect him not to whine about how long it's going to take.
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Old 12th September 2017, 02:41 PM   #2363
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
[...] Keep in mind that if I'm right, we're all the same re our mortality and I can't set us apart the usual way...
Why would anyone keep that in mind? You've never been right. You can't persuade your critics using even the simplest of logical arguments.

You have not produced any evidence to support your silly arguments, and you likely never will.
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Old 12th September 2017, 02:47 PM   #2364
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- So, you're suggesting that "ever" only goes back 13 billion years. Does that really make sense?
This is the crux of your entire argument. You don't care what the reality is. You just care that the conclusion is convenient for you.
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Old 12th September 2017, 02:52 PM   #2365
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
This is the crux of your entire argument. You don't care what the reality is. You just care that the conclusion is convenient for you.
If even that. He doesn't have to believe it. It doesn't have to make sense to him. In terms of his argument, it simply has to be taken arguendo for no more purpose than to correctly reckon P(E|H). It doesn't have to be reality for him to use it properly in his argument. We haven't even reached that stage, which is why the first of the fatal flaws -- which I'm sure we'll never see him address again -- is that he doesn't understand how to formulate a Bayesian inference. Every day he provides more proof he doesn't.
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Old 12th September 2017, 02:59 PM   #2366
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Fairly conclusive proof that Jabba has no real interest in the topic at hand. The question then shifts to why anyone should take him seriously.
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Old 12th September 2017, 03:04 PM   #2367
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- So, you're suggesting that "ever" only goes back 13 billion years. Does that really make sense?

Where does a circle start and end? How can a Moebius strip have only one side, when it can be constructed from an object with two?

You have a very limited imagination when it comes to topology, and how that could possibly affect time.
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Old 12th September 2017, 03:29 PM   #2368
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
If even that. He doesn't have to believe it. It doesn't have to make sense to him. In terms of his argument, it simply has to be taken arguendo for no more purpose than to correctly reckon P(E|H). It doesn't have to be reality for him to use it properly in his argument. We haven't even reached that stage, which is why the first of the fatal flaws -- which I'm sure we'll never see him address again -- is that he doesn't understand how to formulate a Bayesian inference. Every day he provides more proof he doesn't.
Oh, but I meant at an more basic level than that. His formula and everything else are just tools to serve the convenience: that he won't die.
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Old 12th September 2017, 03:44 PM   #2369
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It's simple. If you want to quibble about whether reality exists (which is all "Materialism" really boil down to) you can't do in a discussion where you are trying to promote an answer to a question, real or imagined.

Your cop out response to someone pointing out that your answer doesn't make sense can't be "Prove to me answers as a concept exist."
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Old 12th September 2017, 05:36 PM   #2370
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Mod WarningAlthough the topic for this thread has drifted broadly at times, it has at least tried to stay in the same continent with Bayesian statistics and proofs of immortality. The philosophical significance of modern science isn't in that same continent, so I have taken the liberty of deporting multiple posts that didn't belong before they reached the Kingdom of Bickering.

You're welcome.
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Old 12th September 2017, 07:10 PM   #2371
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
You know Jabba most people can sum up their existential crisis in far fewer words.


Yup. And mine didn't last for 5 years, either.


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Old 12th September 2017, 07:34 PM   #2372
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Yup. And mine didn't last for 5 years, either.
Mine lasted six, but I got a Ph.D. out of it.

I'm a slow learner.
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Old 12th September 2017, 09:49 PM   #2373
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I can't believe I survived a hurricane to find that this thread has somehow managed to find a new way to go downhill.
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:13 PM   #2374
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yes it is. Logically speaking, either something has come from nothing, or something has always existed --
neither of which makes any sense.

The Chewbacca defence won't help you.
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Old 13th September 2017, 05:57 AM   #2375
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
...
- Moving along a little bit -- remember all the events that had to occur in order for you and me to be here today.
[i]10. And, the thing is, logically speaking, NOTHING should exist...
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
...
That's not logical at all...
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
... Yes it is. Logically speaking, either something has come from nothing, or something has always existed -- neither of which makes any sense.
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
In what way do neither of those make sense? Something obviously exists, so if that seems illogical, then at least one of your premises must be wrong.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- That's the problem. Which one is it?
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
The premise that something couldn't always have existed. And, if you hold it, the premise that "always" extends infinitely into the past instead of a finite amount of time.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- If I understand what you're saying, time came from nothing...
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Maybe it did. Or maybe time has existed forever - where "forever" is around 13 billion years so far. There's no evidence there was ever nothing.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- So, you're suggesting that "ever" only goes back 13 billion years. Does that really make sense?
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
That's what the available evidence suggests. Whether it makes sense to me has no bearing on whether it's true.
- It should. Whether it makes sense or not is part of the evidence. That it doesn't make sense (even just to you) suggests that there is something wrong with the science. Quantum entanglement doesn't seem to make sense. That suggests that something is wrong with current science.

- So, all that may be wrong -- but, it is logical.
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:02 AM   #2376
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- It should. Whether it makes sense or not is part of the evidence. ....
False.

that is the fallacy: "Gee I can't understand this, therefore it must be wrong."
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:03 AM   #2377
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... And as such, is part of the evidence.

- This refers back to 2375.
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:04 AM   #2378
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- It should.
Are you seriously suggesting that reality must make sense to you?




You do know that plenty of established science was very counter-intuitive, right? The very computer you're using to post here wouldn't work if not for some pretty insane Quantum Mechanics stuff. But it works despite not making sense to a lot of people.

Quote:
Whether it makes sense or not is part of the evidence.
Absolutely not.

How do you manage to get the fundamentals so wrong, so consistently?
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:06 AM   #2379
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- So, all that may be wrong -- but, it is logical.
It IS wrong, and it's illogical.
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:19 AM   #2380
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- It should. Whether it makes sense or not is part of the evidence. That it doesn't make sense (even just to you) suggests that there is something wrong with the science. Quantum entanglement doesn't seem to make sense. That suggests that something is wrong with current science.
There's no reason to think my brain is capable of understanding everything. What you have above is not any kind of evidence.
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:29 AM   #2381
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- It should. Whether it makes sense or not is part of the evidence. That it doesn't make sense (even just to you) suggests that there is something wrong with the science. Quantum entanglement doesn't seem to make sense. That suggests that something is wrong with current science.
I see. Having failed to argue successfully that the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy is not a logical fallacy, you're now retreating to arging the case that the argument from incredulity is not a logical fallacy. Interesting.

Dave

PS: It's still a logical fallacy.
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:32 AM   #2382
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- It should. Whether it makes sense or not is part of the evidence. That it doesn't make sense (even just to you) suggests that there is something wrong with the science. Quantum entanglement doesn't seem to make sense. That suggests that something is wrong with current science.

- So, all that may be wrong -- but, it is logical.
Science isn't flawed because it doesn't make sense to people who openly admit they never put the effort into understanding it.

There are people out there that understand science well enough to go "Something looks off." You are not one of of them. You have spent this entire five year train wreck throwing away every ounce of argumentative credibility you ever had. Your personal opinion about what science can or cannot do is absolutely worthless at this point. You can't point at your own ability to understand something when you are literally wrong about everything you have ever said.

You can't use uninformed incredulity to special plead your way an absurdity.
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:40 AM   #2383
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
There are people out there that understand science well enough to go "Something looks off." You are not one of of them.
And if you were, you'd understand that your next step is to describe precisely what looks off, and why, and then to come up with an explanation as to why it requires a modification to our understanding. The exchange, "I don't like the look of this theory," "OK, we'll throw it away and just blame it on God" doesn't happen in science.

Dave
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Old 13th September 2017, 07:00 AM   #2384
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- It should. Whether it makes sense or not is part of the evidence. That it doesn't make sense (even just to you) suggests that there is something wrong with the science. Quantum entanglement doesn't seem to make sense. That suggests that something is wrong with current science.
Cool! So, since pretty much everything seems fishy to someone (I mean, check out the Conspiracy Theory forum) then that suggests that there's something wrong with literally everything we know!

Flat Earthers must be on to something, right Jabba?

Unless you think that you're special in this sense, that your own gut feelings are somehow able to trump established science and reality itself but other people don't have that same ability? Is that it?
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Old 13th September 2017, 07:02 AM   #2385
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Whether it makes sense or not is part of the evidence.
No. Evidence is what is meant to alter or create a legitimate belief. You're putting the cart before the horse and trying to say that belief creates or legitimizes evidence. That's emphatically not science.

Quote:
That it doesn't make sense (even just to you) suggests that there is something wrong with the science.
No. The scientific method was adopted precisely to keep belief from creating inappropriate illusions of evidence. The entire purpose of science is to refer to fact even though it "doesn't make sense."

Quote:
Quantum entanglement doesn't seem to make sense.
According to ... ?

Quote:
That suggests that something is wrong with current science.
No. At best it may suggest that you don't understand science.

Quote:
So, all that may be wrong...
Everything you've said above is grossly wrong.

Quote:
but, it is logical.
No, everything you've said above is grossly illogical. It's just a bunch of nonsense trying very hard to establish a belief-based epistemology in place of facts. You are not making a logical argument by any stretch of the imagination.

Last edited by JayUtah; 13th September 2017 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 13th September 2017, 07:04 AM   #2386
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No. Evidence is what is meant to alter or creates a legitimate belief. You're putting the cart before the horse and trying to say that belief creates or legitimizes evidence. That's emphatically not science.
In fact it could be called anti-science.
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Old 13th September 2017, 07:10 AM   #2387
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
... And as such, is part of the evidence.
One of the several fatal flaws you're too terrified to address is that you don't understand what evidence is. Today's posts from you earnestly underline that deficiency.

Here is a list of individually fatal flaws in your argument. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=3198 For each of them, please write a few sentences telling your readers how you plan to overcome it. This should take you no more than an hour. It's abundantly evident that you know this list exists and that it challenges your claim. Can we expect your answers in the next day or so?
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Old 13th September 2017, 07:46 AM   #2388
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What a blatant double standard you have, here. When told that souls do not make sense in the current model of reality, you claim it is just because you aren't being understood, not that you are wrong.

Yet, when you claim not to understand the current model of reality, it is because it is wrong.

Sheesh...
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Old 13th September 2017, 08:01 AM   #2389
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Woo Slingers as a group simply refuse to admit that introducing ambiguity into an argument (usually via the broad brush of just smearing science, rationality, or even the very concept of knowing anything) doesn't make their Woo more likely.

It's a sad, childish "I know you are but what am I" level argument.

I've seen it a hundred times spanning a dozen different basic variations that all boil down to the same stupid copout "If you can't prove everything to my made up meaningless standards you have to step aside and let me espouse any made up nonsense I want."
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Old 13th September 2017, 09:37 AM   #2390
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post

- So, all that may be wrong -- but, it is logical.
The universe is under no compulsion to meet our expectations, logic is a useful human tool.
The universe is what it is and not bound by logic
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Old 13th September 2017, 09:45 AM   #2391
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
The universe is what it is and not bound by logic
Or if you'd rather, the universe is bound by logic but not by what *feels* or *seems* logical. Lots and lots of things seem illogical and then turn out to be totally logical once we have more information or whatever. Our gut feelings don't do a great job at covering gaps in our knowledge.
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Old 13th September 2017, 09:54 AM   #2392
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Quantum entanglement doesn't seem to make sense.

Jabba -

It would if you were properly educated.

In fact, a whole lot that you have claimed to be guessing or supposing would become clearer if you educated yourself. What do Hindus believe survives reincarnation? You've claimed to guess at what they believe but it would be easier for you to find out on a Hindu message board than it would be to post here.

You've actively refused to investigate multiple areas of knowledge that would help you with your arguments. You don't get to then use your ignorance as evidence.
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Old 13th September 2017, 09:57 AM   #2393
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Jabba -

It would if you were properly educated.

In fact, a whole lot that you have claimed to be guessing or supposing would become clearer if you educated yourself. What do Hindus believe survives reincarnation? You've claimed to guess at what they believe but it would be easier for you to find out on a Hindu message board than it would be to post here.

You've actively refused to investigate multiple areas of knowledge that would help you with your arguments. You don't get to then use your ignorance as evidence.
Those are non-christian sources. A real christian could not be having with those.

Although, Jabba's arguments are fundamentally non-christian. I have no idea what he actually believes at this point.
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Old 13th September 2017, 10:01 AM   #2394
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I have no idea what he actually believes at this point.
I don't even know if Jabba knows what Jabba believes at this point.

I think after all this time Jabba's random mishmash of various religious apologetics, the fetish for his "Effective Debate Technique" and fear of death (peppered with the countless argumentative, logical, and factual mistakes he's made) have just... congealed into this Frankenstein mass of "Just keep the argument going."
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Old 13th September 2017, 10:14 AM   #2395
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Our gut feelings don't do a great job at covering gaps in our knowledge.
Which is exactly what we evolved the scientific method to overcome. As Argumemnon noted, it would be anti-science to submit scientific findings to the whims of our expectations or beliefs.

Now in a certain sense we look at something unexpected and say, "Well, that doesn't make sense." That's the beginning of scientific inquiry, not the end of it. At the end of the exercise of scientific investigation, it will make sense because we expanded our understanding to encompass it.

But that's not what Jabba is talking about. He's talking about taking established scientific findings (not new, unexpected observation) and subjecting them to his gut feelings to see if they pass that muster. He's not the first to try to parlay "I don't understand" into "This is a problem for everyone."
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Old 13th September 2017, 11:46 AM   #2396
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
He's not the first to try to parlay "I don't understand" into "This is a problem for everyone."
And that's what his whole "Effective Debate" thing is about. He's trying to prove, even to himself, that's he developed a way to turn his gut feelings and lack of understanding into proof of factual wrongness.
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Old 13th September 2017, 02:13 PM   #2397
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The latest podcast from Sam Harris is all about consciousness and the illusion of self. Good stuff.


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Old 13th September 2017, 04:23 PM   #2398
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Whether it makes sense or not is part of the evidence.

You understand that your arguments don't make sense, right?

Last edited by Loss Leader; 13th September 2017 at 05:31 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tags
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Old 14th September 2017, 01:01 AM   #2399
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
You understand that your arguments don't make sense, right?
Which means, by impeccable Jabba logic, that they must be wrong.

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Old 14th September 2017, 02:38 AM   #2400
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
... And as such, is part of the evidence.
At this point you are like someone who came here believing that the earth is flat because that's what their common sense told them and, after having the concept of gravity explained to them over and over again for going on five years, is still saying "but it can't be round because the people on the other side would fall off".
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