ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

Reply
Old 2nd November 2017, 09:29 AM   #601
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,314
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks for proving my point! Sensational. You and I are like peas and carrots.

And lookit the growth in India as a percentage of the total! Holle molee! Say, India has not been a hot bed of Catholicism despite the work of actual Saints, now has it. So one would expect that as the percentage of non-Christian countries grows as respects the remainder of the world, that one would have to take that into account, right?

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics".
Are catholics being arrested in those countries as you claimed?

ETA: Where exactly are all of these catholics being arrested and/or killed? Do you know?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2017, 09:36 AM   #602
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 22,118
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Are catholics being arrested in those countries as you claimed?
Yes, as you showed, as you likely surmised, I was thinking of China and also growth in countries dominated by Radical Muslims.

One thinks of the recent attack on Christians in Egypt, which is right there on your list, and of course, wide swaths of the Middle east, facts that of course that you are no doubt well aware.

Interested that your annotated list contains recognition that in many countries there are no Catholics or other Christians to speak of.

Thanks for helping me nail down my points!!
__________________
Ut apostolica institutio quadraginta dierum jejuniis impleatur

St. Leo The Great Doctor of the Church
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2017, 09:38 AM   #603
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 22,118
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Are catholics being arrested in those countries as you claimed?

ETA: Where exactly are all of these catholics being arrested and/or killed? Do you know?
Not in those countries where being Catholic or Christian is officially or as a practical matter suppressed!

Thanks for helping me absolutely crush this argument big time!!

FANTASTIC!!
__________________
Ut apostolica institutio quadraginta dierum jejuniis impleatur

St. Leo The Great Doctor of the Church
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2017, 09:43 AM   #604
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,314
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Not in those countries where being Catholic or Christian is officially or as a practical matter suppressed!

Thanks for helping me absolutely crush this argument big time!!

FANTASTIC!!
Name those countries.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2017, 09:48 AM   #605
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 22,118
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Name those countries.
China, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Eritrea, Uzbekistan, Qatar...

You just keep serving me those softballs and i will keep on knocking them out of the god damned park!

Fantastic.
__________________
Ut apostolica institutio quadraginta dierum jejuniis impleatur

St. Leo The Great Doctor of the Church
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2017, 09:50 AM   #606
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 41,093
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
In many cases, the attitude of the Catholic Church towards women would be more progressive than the developing countries they operate in. And for some reason I've never had time to sit down and work out, their retarded attitude towards homosexuals doesn't 'stick' with Catholic populations, (that could be a subject for a thread on its own though).
That depends on the nature of those rules, yes women married to HIV positive men need to get knocked up and never use a condom.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2017, 01:47 PM   #607
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks for proving my point! Sensational. You and I are like peas and carrots.
Typical The Big Dog pretend excitement and mirth.

Quote:
And lookit the growth in India as a percentage of the total! Holle molee! Say, India has not been a hot bed of Catholicism despite the work of actual Saints, now has it. So one would expect that as the percentage of non-Christian countries grows as respects the remainder of the world, that one would have to take that into account, right?

Now why would that be I wonder? If actual Saints can't do the job what hope is there.


Quote:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics".

That's a bit trite isn't it?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2017, 02:00 PM   #608
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
The numbers in the article look impressive, but it's a textbook case of a failure of critical thinking.

1950: Number of Catholics: 437 million; world population: 2,525 million: % Catholic: 17.3
1970: Number of Catholics: 650 million; world population: 3,682 million: % Catholic: 17.6
2015: Number of Catholics: 1,200 million; world population: 7,349 million: % Catholic: 16.3

Not spectacular at all. The RCC is barely holding its own against the world-wide population growth, and in the last 45 years has actually shrunk.

Yes some good stats.

The only reason the number of Catholics remains relatively high is because of recruitment in developing countries. In the West the fall is dramatic.

I recall reading an article some time ago suggesting the centre of Catholicism may move to Africa or South America in the not too far distant future.

Just imagine that The Big Dog ....... the Vatican moved to Africa!
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2017, 02:10 PM   #609
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,530
I just can't engage with such blatant dishonesty.
__________________
"This quote was taken out of context."
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2017, 02:21 PM   #610
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,314
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
China,
Already demonstrateds to be false
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Saudi Arabia,
Demonstrably false

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yemen,
About 3 thousand of those and demonstrably false
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Iran,
Demonstrably false.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Iraq,
Demonstrably false.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Somalia,
Wow. What a messed up country. Catholic population under 100. Colour me unimpressed.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Syria,
Plenty of christians and catholics there. They even have their on version of it.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Afghanistan
Really? Insane warzones are definitive. Off you go and explain that to the Taliban. And the opium farmers.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Pakistan,
I provided you those numbers already. You ignored it.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Eritrea,
And those. You would not even know that Eritrea was a country until I mentioned it.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Uzbekistan,
Different culture. Mostly, when it comes to christianity, they go "Meh?"

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Qatar...
No arrests.

Qatar is secular.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You just keep serving me those softballs and i will keep on knocking them out of the god damned park!

Fantastic.
Nope. You will continue to fail.

Still waiting for wherever it is that you think christians are imprisoned and/or executed. You continue to fail to produce any.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2017, 02:33 PM   #611
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
On the subject of Catholic expansion in developing countries I have an amusing story to tell.

I did some volunteer work for a couple of NGO's in Northern Thailand for a few years. The people we were helping were the Hill Tribe folk, who are very much disadvantaged in the country. I was working for secular organisations, but there were no less than 90 faith based ones there also, including Catholics.

When I visited many Hill Tribes there was often a fine church among the bamboo huts. The people were a soft target for the missionaries, as they did not have a strong religion already entrenched in their culture.

On one visit, together with a Hill Tribe national guide, I noticed there were two churches in the village. "Why two churches" I asked, as it was only a small village. "They are different" my guide said. "One is Christian and the other Catholic".
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2017, 01:45 PM   #612
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
Another Australian news item:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-0...-abuse/8680158


I know this was discussed in another thread but I see the relevance to this discussion also.

Referring to abaddon's earlier account of the divorced lady being refused the sacrament by the ranting priest, one can see why this may be causing even more to leave the church.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2017, 02:03 PM   #613
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 22,118
Demonstrably false.

is something that one expects will be followed by the demonstration of it, but one would be waiting quite a while for it!

The suggestion that Saudi Arabia does not suppress Christianity is so utterly ridiculous it is amazing that the words were typed on this website.

Just really remarkable, utterly mindblowing.
__________________
Ut apostolica institutio quadraginta dierum jejuniis impleatur

St. Leo The Great Doctor of the Church
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd November 2017, 10:15 PM   #614
Dabop
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Oz
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by The Big Dog
Not in those countries where being Catholic or Christian is officially or as a practical matter suppressed!

Thanks for helping me absolutely crush this argument big time!!

FANTASTIC!!
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Name those countries.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Saudi Arabia
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Demonstrably false.
I hate to disagree, but in this case Big Dog has (finally) got something right

I have friends working in Saudi and even foreign workers invited into the country keep their religion (or lack of it) very quiet, public expressions of any other faith is banned, and atheists are technically to be executed!
Any other religions are banned from any public displays and even `private' gatherings are not encouraged in the foreign workers, as one of my friends said "if you have to pray, do it inside your head and in your own room by yourself"
Gatherings of foreign workers have been broken up by the 'religious police' whatever they are called, begins with m, and they have been charged and in some cases deported. If there are any locals involved in any other religions or even atheists, they are keeping their heads well down while still inside Saudi

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove relatively innocuous remark that was misunderstood and caused a derailing bickerfest
__________________
It's a kind of a strawman thing in that it's exactly a strawman thing. Loss Leader

'When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.' George Carlin

Last edited by Agatha; 13th November 2017 at 06:21 AM.
Dabop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2017, 02:56 PM   #615
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
It may have been a slip of the pen (or more correctly a bad key stroke) by abaddon but unfortunately it allowed The Big Dog to use the distraction to duck the other questions pending.

I would really, really, like some answers about his take, on the severe infighting between the hierarchy of the church and the Pope, among other things he continually sidesteps.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 05:57 PM   #616
Strawberry
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,261
Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
I hate to disagree, but in this case Big Dog has (finally) got something right

I have friends working in Saudi and even foreign workers invited into the country keep their religion (or lack of it) very quiet, public expressions of any other faith is banned, and atheists are technically to be executed!
Any other religions are banned from any public displays and even `private' gatherings are not encouraged in the foreign workers, as one of my friends said "if you have to pray, do it inside your head and in your own room by yourself"
Gatherings of foreign workers have been broken up by the 'religious police' whatever they are called, begins with m, and they have been charged and in some cases deported. If there are any locals involved in any other religions or even atheists, they are keeping their heads well down while still inside Saudi

Edited by Agatha:  edited previously moderated content
..
Edited by Agatha:  edited response to previously moderated content
Saudi Arabia is a repressive Islamic theocracy which still executes people for witchcraft and bans all non muslims from even setting foot in two of its cities. If you feel the need for a shower after telling that truth you might not be as rational or as skeptic as you like to believe.

I don't know what infighting, if any, is taking place between the Catholic hierarchy and the Pope but it wouldn't surprise me because the Church needs to modernise and reform in various ways and this Pope seems to know it. Reforms rarely take place in any institution without some kind of resistance and backlash, especially in a large, global institution like the Catholic Church.

Last edited by Agatha; 13th November 2017 at 06:22 AM.
Strawberry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 01:13 PM   #617
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Edited by Agatha:  edited previously moderated content
Saudi Arabia is a repressive Islamic theocracy which still executes people for witchcraft and bans all non muslims from even setting foot in two of its cities. If you feel the need for a shower after telling that truth you might not be as rational or as skeptic as you like to believe.

I don't know what infighting, if any, is taking place between the Catholic hierarchy and the Pope but it wouldn't surprise me because the Church needs to modernise and reform in various ways and this Pope seems to know it. Reforms rarely take place in any institution without some kind of resistance and backlash, especially in a large, global institution like the Catholic Church.
Edited by Agatha:  edited response to previously moderated content


Abaddon kindly gave us a link to an article in The Guardian about the infighting in the Catholic hierarchy a couple of pages back. I thought you were part of the discussion back then but if not here it is again. The article speaks of a number of high up clergy writing an open letter to the Pope.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...t-pope-francis
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.

Last edited by Agatha; 13th November 2017 at 06:23 AM.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 01:32 PM   #618
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
I found something else of pertinence to this discussion in the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/us...-celibacy.html

Quote:
Francis Moloney, a senior professorial fellow at Catholic Theological College in Melbourne, says there is an "urgent need" for the Church to rethink it’s teaching on divorce and remarriage.
Doing so, he says, could help to address the issue of domestic violence in Catholic marriages.
(The Catholic Church does not recognise the re-marriage of a divorced person unless an annulment is granted determining that a valid, sacramental marriage never occurred in the first place.)

The Church's teaching on the indissolubility of marriage can exacerbate already abusive marriages, said Professor Moloney, a priest of the Salesians of Don Bosco, because it can lead couples to believe there is "no exit".
"Once they wrongly have it in their minds and hearts that there is no escape, deeper depression and violence sets in," he said.

The indissolubility of marriage is a large boulder on the road, hindering the progress of the RCC to fit in more comfortably with modern day trends. Abaddon told us a story, back a few pages, about a priest who refused to give a divorcee the sacrament, and the whole congregation walked out in support of the woman. This is more a case of the church driving people away than people walking away of their own accord.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 02:18 PM   #619
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 5,277
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Edited by Agatha:  edited previously moderated content


Abaddon kindly gave us a link to an article in The Guardian about the infighting in the Catholic hierarchy a couple of pages back. I thought you were part of the discussion back then but if not here it is again. The article speaks of a number of high up clergy writing an open letter to the Pope.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...t-pope-francis
The link is broken. Here's the corrected one: The War Against Pope Francis.
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

Last edited by Agatha; 13th November 2017 at 06:23 AM.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 02:57 PM   #620
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 15,163
I'm just wondering what our Catholic members think of a country that would appoint, as it's Ambassador to the Holy See, a woman married to a divorced man with whom she was having sexual relations while he was married to someone else?
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 02:09 PM   #621
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm just wondering what our Catholic members think of a country that would appoint, as it's Ambassador to the Holy See, a woman married to a divorced man with whom she was having sexual relations while he was married to someone else?

Yes I can imagine some awkwardness as a result of this. Who are we talking about?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 05:17 PM   #622
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 15,163
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm just wondering what our Catholic members think of a country that would appoint, as it's Ambassador to the Holy See, a woman married to a divorced man with whom she was having sexual relations while he was married to someone else?
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes I can imagine some awkwardness as a result of this. Who are we talking about?
That would be the new US Ambassador. Doesn't seem to be bothering anyone at all. Her husband was conveniently able to get his previous marriage annulled on account of his wife of 19 years having been previously married. So had he, in fact he was cheating with her when he served divorce papers on his first wife while she was in the hospital after cancer surgery. Just fine upstanding Catholics, the lot of them.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 10:02 PM   #623
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 22,118
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Unfortunately for you there are 1.5 to 2 million christians in SA and they are happily tolerated.

But that doesn't matter anymore. Whatever it is that you believe, you are unwilling to defend it.

So direct question for you. What is it that you believe? and why do you believe it?

You do not have to answer, of course, but a lack of answer will draw conclusions as much as an answer.

You must understand that this is a discussion forum, and no discussion is possible when one "participant" refuses to post any content for discussion.
Happily tolerated? Oh man, that is a laughable joke.
__________________
Ut apostolica institutio quadraginta dierum jejuniis impleatur

St. Leo The Great Doctor of the Church
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 11:23 PM   #624
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,314
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Happily tolerated? Oh man, that is a laughable joke.
Yes. There are. You can ignore the facts all you like. But I notice that you had no response at all to the meat of the question. Because you plainly have none. It seems to me that you are afraid to commit to any god at all. Feel free to contradict me, but so far, you are an atheist. you will endorse no god.

Why?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 07:33 AM   #625
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Moderator
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 12,263
Mod Warning Discerning readers will note that several posts have been edited and a bunch sent to The Place Where Bad Posts Go.

Will you all kindly remember to be civil and polite, even when (perhaps especially when) you disagree fundamentally with another member.
Posted By:Agatha
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 06:39 PM   #626
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
Thanks Agatha.

The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse is winding up soon and the chairman has once again drawn attention the Catholic Church.

Quote:
'Impossible not to share the anger'

Justice McClellan drew particular attention the Roman Catholic Church, which had the highest number of alleged perpetrators and abused children.
"Alleged perpetrators were often allowed to have access to children even when religious leaders knew they posed a danger," he said.
"Alleged perpetrators were often transferred to another location where they had access to children but were never reported to police."
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2017, 01:34 PM   #627
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,803
oh, look
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2017, 01:58 PM   #628
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post

Once again an article with a familiar ring to it:

Quote:
It is also reported that the abbey asked the court not to allow the claim because the seriousness of the allegations was likely to attract attention that may threaten the continued existence of the abbey.

Oh yes! The good name of the abbey and church must be protected.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2017, 04:34 PM   #629
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,803
More, from Scotland
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2017, 12:22 AM   #630
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,267
I haven't read most of this thread. Mostly I checked in for an answer to the thread title and didn't find an answer at the start of end of the thread. But maybe there is an answer someplace in the middle of the thread that I didn't read.

Regardless, this is a link that provides some data concerning the question:
https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/05/1...-denomination/

I've never heard of Crux so it may not be the most credible source, but it specializes in coverage of the Catholic Church and providing evidence that Catholic Church membership is declining seems like it would not be something they would misrepresent.

From the article:
"A report released Tuesday by the Pew Forum finds that the total number of Catholics in the United States dropped by 3 million since 2007, now comprising about 20 percent - or one-fifth - of the total population."

Also
"The big winner in terms of growing numbers is the unaffiliated, or the so-called “nones,” shooting up to about 23 percent of the total population from just 16 percent seven years ago."

And more
"And perhaps more troubling for the church, for every one Catholic convert, more than six Catholics leave the church. Taken a step further, Catholicism loses more members than it gains at a higher rate than any other denomination, with nearly 13 percent of all Americans describing themselves as “former Catholics.”"

Freefall might be a tad strong, but if it wasn't for the Latino immigration the numbers would be worse.
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett

Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2017, 12:44 AM   #631
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,803
Interesting numbers, thanks. "Freefall" is clearly overstating the situation, but there are certainly crises in a number of "first world" countries
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th December 2017, 11:02 PM   #632
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
And so it goes on:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-0...castle/9230604

Quote:
Archbishop Philip Wilson has appeared in court in Newcastle on one count of covering up an indictable offence after being declared fit to stand trial.
He flew into Newcastle today from Adelaide for the magistrate-alone trial.
The 67-year-old is accused of covering up abuse by priest Jim Fletcher in the Hunter Valley in the 1970s.
The Adelaide Archbishop is the most senior Catholic in the world to be charged with this offence.

I wonder about he wording of this ...... " the most senior Catholic in the world to be charged with this offence."

I would have thought he was eclipsed by Pell here.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2017, 02:18 PM   #633
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
We eagerly await the handing down of the final report tomorrow.

This from one survivor:

Quote:
Child sexual abuse survivor Damian De Marco is calling for the Catholic Church to be banned from operating Australian schools unless it agrees to report abuse revealed during confession.
The call comes as the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse prepares to hand down its final report tomorrow.
Lifted from this news item:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-1...chools/9256172

I think it unlikely the Catholic Church will roll over on this, and unlikely also that politicians will push for it. The sanctity of the confession seems pivotal to Catholic belief, and I have yet to hear any Catholic clergy, make any noises about letting it go.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2017, 04:31 PM   #634
davefoc
Philosopher
 
davefoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,267
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
We eagerly await the handing down of the final report tomorrow.

This from one survivor:



Lifted from this news item:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-1...chools/9256172

I think it unlikely the Catholic Church will roll over on this, and unlikely also that politicians will push for it. The sanctity of the confession seems pivotal to Catholic belief, and I have yet to hear any Catholic clergy, make any noises about letting it go.
I don't think you need a special Catholic law on this. I would have guessed you wouldn't have needed any law at all because I wouldn't have imagined any kind of school or church bureaucracy would try to handle serious sexual crimes on their own. But, obviously, I was wrong about that.

So, we need laws to make it clear not reporting claims of serious sexual crimes is bad. School officials who do not report claims of serious sexual crimes to the authorities go to jail. That will fix the vast majority of the problem within a week of the law taking effect.
__________________
The way of truth is along the path of intellectual sincerity. -- Henry S. Pritchett

Perfection is the enemy of good enough -- Russian proverb
davefoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2017, 05:52 PM   #635
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
No we don't need a special law for catholic clergy, we need the Catholic clergy to be subject to The Law of the Land, and not claim some special exemption because of the so called specialness of confession.

An extract from the Sydney Morning herald a couple of years ago.

Quote:
The Victorian inquiry had broad terms of reference and dealt with religious and non-religious institutions throughout Victoria. Yet according to the report, the overwhelming majority of criminal acts perpetrated against vulnerable children were committed by Catholic priests. Despite this appalling record, the church hierarchy insists that, on the grounds of religious right, the Confessional should remain exempt from mandatory reporting. If a penitent reveals during the Confession that he or she has been sexually abused by anybody, the priest must not disclose that information.

For Catholic priests, the confidentiality of such statements is absolute - even under threat of their own death or that of others. Canon Law states that a priest who breaches the Seal of the Confessional, incurs latae sententiae - i.e. automatic - excommunication. Paradoxically, a priest who commits an indictable criminal offence, such as sexual abuse of a minor, does not incur the same penalty. Instead, the evidence shows, usually his bishop quietly transfers the offender to another parish and rejects any complaints from aggrieved parents.

It will be interesting times if we see priests being jailed for adhering to Canon Law and other priests abiding by The Law of the Land and thus breaking Canon Law.

I don't think we can overstate what a big deal this is for the Catholic Church. What will the faithful do if they cannot confess sins that are crimes, for fear of being brought to justice? No confession and no absolution?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2017, 06:38 PM   #636
Strawberry
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,261
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
No we don't need a special law for catholic clergy, we need the Catholic clergy to be subject to The Law of the Land, and not claim some special exemption because of the so called specialness of confession.

An extract from the Sydney Morning herald a couple of years ago.




It will be interesting times if we see priests being jailed for adhering to Canon Law and other priests abiding by The Law of the Land and thus breaking Canon Law.

I don't think we can overstate what a big deal this is for the Catholic Church. What will the faithful do if they cannot confess sins that are crimes, for fear of being brought to justice? No confession and no absolution?
Interesting. I don't think you can jail priests for not breaking the seal of the confessional, its privileged information like doctor/patient stuff. However, when someone confesses a crime that obviously complicates things - although the Catholic church themselves could offer a solution by refusing to give absolution unless the criminal confesses to the police.
Strawberry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th December 2017, 02:00 PM   #637
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Interesting. I don't think you can jail priests for not breaking the seal of the confessional, its privileged information like doctor/patient stuff. However, when someone confesses a crime that obviously complicates things - although the Catholic church themselves could offer a solution by refusing to give absolution unless the criminal confesses to the police.

It will be a surprise to me, if one of the recommendations of the Royal Commission, (due out today), is not that it should be made unlawful, for a priest to withhold information about a crime.

Leaving it up to the church to resolve this by refusing absolution, would have little chance of success I think, as it would require the honesty of clergy, and we know what a faint possibility that is from experience now.

The strength of faith of Catholic clergy is questionable I think, given the number of very serious crimes committed by so many, and the lies told by them and others to cover things up. These are serious sins and we have to wonder if the clergy are really concerned about committing them.

Some time ago Daniel Dennett gave a presentation titled “The Evolution of Confusion”, where the main topic of discussion was “Non Believing Clergy". Dennett suggested there are a large number of priests and ministers who are secretly atheists and that many lose their faith before they are ordained, whilst studying at the seminary. This he claimed was because they were confronted with the very dubious history of the Bible and lost confidence that it really is the unerring word of God.

Could this be the reason Catholic clergy are so seemingly unconcerned about sins committed? Many just don't believe this tosh about being off to Hell and their main concern is just having a comfortable life here and now.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th December 2017, 06:10 AM   #638
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 8,131
Have the RCC crashed on the ground yet?
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th December 2017, 01:12 PM   #639
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,246
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Have the RCC crashed on the ground yet?

There is no ground just a bottomless abyss.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th December 2017, 01:28 PM   #640
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 8,131
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
There is no ground just a bottomless abyss.
How convenient!

Wait! ... then the RCC is exactly as strong as it was 10 years ago
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:09 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.