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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 2nd November 2017, 09:29 AM   #601
abaddon
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks for proving my point! Sensational. You and I are like peas and carrots.

And lookit the growth in India as a percentage of the total! Holle molee! Say, India has not been a hot bed of Catholicism despite the work of actual Saints, now has it. So one would expect that as the percentage of non-Christian countries grows as respects the remainder of the world, that one would have to take that into account, right?

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics".
Are catholics being arrested in those countries as you claimed?

ETA: Where exactly are all of these catholics being arrested and/or killed? Do you know?
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Old 2nd November 2017, 09:36 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Are catholics being arrested in those countries as you claimed?
Yes, as you showed, as you likely surmised, I was thinking of China and also growth in countries dominated by Radical Muslims.

One thinks of the recent attack on Christians in Egypt, which is right there on your list, and of course, wide swaths of the Middle east, facts that of course that you are no doubt well aware.

Interested that your annotated list contains recognition that in many countries there are no Catholics or other Christians to speak of.

Thanks for helping me nail down my points!!
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Old 2nd November 2017, 09:38 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Are catholics being arrested in those countries as you claimed?

ETA: Where exactly are all of these catholics being arrested and/or killed? Do you know?
Not in those countries where being Catholic or Christian is officially or as a practical matter suppressed!

Thanks for helping me absolutely crush this argument big time!!

FANTASTIC!!
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Old 2nd November 2017, 09:43 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Not in those countries where being Catholic or Christian is officially or as a practical matter suppressed!

Thanks for helping me absolutely crush this argument big time!!

FANTASTIC!!
Name those countries.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 09:48 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Name those countries.
China, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Eritrea, Uzbekistan, Qatar...

You just keep serving me those softballs and i will keep on knocking them out of the god damned park!

Fantastic.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 09:50 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
In many cases, the attitude of the Catholic Church towards women would be more progressive than the developing countries they operate in. And for some reason I've never had time to sit down and work out, their retarded attitude towards homosexuals doesn't 'stick' with Catholic populations, (that could be a subject for a thread on its own though).
That depends on the nature of those rules, yes women married to HIV positive men need to get knocked up and never use a condom.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 01:47 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thanks for proving my point! Sensational. You and I are like peas and carrots.
Typical The Big Dog pretend excitement and mirth.

Quote:
And lookit the growth in India as a percentage of the total! Holle molee! Say, India has not been a hot bed of Catholicism despite the work of actual Saints, now has it. So one would expect that as the percentage of non-Christian countries grows as respects the remainder of the world, that one would have to take that into account, right?

Now why would that be I wonder? If actual Saints can't do the job what hope is there.


Quote:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics".

That's a bit trite isn't it?
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Old 2nd November 2017, 02:00 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
The numbers in the article look impressive, but it's a textbook case of a failure of critical thinking.

1950: Number of Catholics: 437 million; world population: 2,525 million: % Catholic: 17.3
1970: Number of Catholics: 650 million; world population: 3,682 million: % Catholic: 17.6
2015: Number of Catholics: 1,200 million; world population: 7,349 million: % Catholic: 16.3

Not spectacular at all. The RCC is barely holding its own against the world-wide population growth, and in the last 45 years has actually shrunk.

Yes some good stats.

The only reason the number of Catholics remains relatively high is because of recruitment in developing countries. In the West the fall is dramatic.

I recall reading an article some time ago suggesting the centre of Catholicism may move to Africa or South America in the not too far distant future.

Just imagine that The Big Dog ....... the Vatican moved to Africa!
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Old 2nd November 2017, 02:10 PM   #609
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I just can't engage with such blatant dishonesty.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 02:21 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
China,
Already demonstrateds to be false
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Saudi Arabia,
Demonstrably false

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yemen,
About 3 thousand of those and demonstrably false
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Iran,
Demonstrably false.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Iraq,
Demonstrably false.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Somalia,
Wow. What a messed up country. Catholic population under 100. Colour me unimpressed.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Syria,
Plenty of christians and catholics there. They even have their on version of it.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Afghanistan
Really? Insane warzones are definitive. Off you go and explain that to the Taliban. And the opium farmers.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Pakistan,
I provided you those numbers already. You ignored it.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Eritrea,
And those. You would not even know that Eritrea was a country until I mentioned it.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Uzbekistan,
Different culture. Mostly, when it comes to christianity, they go "Meh?"

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Qatar...
No arrests.

Qatar is secular.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You just keep serving me those softballs and i will keep on knocking them out of the god damned park!

Fantastic.
Nope. You will continue to fail.

Still waiting for wherever it is that you think christians are imprisoned and/or executed. You continue to fail to produce any.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 02:33 PM   #611
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On the subject of Catholic expansion in developing countries I have an amusing story to tell.

I did some volunteer work for a couple of NGO's in Northern Thailand for a few years. The people we were helping were the Hill Tribe folk, who are very much disadvantaged in the country. I was working for secular organisations, but there were no less than 90 faith based ones there also, including Catholics.

When I visited many Hill Tribes there was often a fine church among the bamboo huts. The people were a soft target for the missionaries, as they did not have a strong religion already entrenched in their culture.

On one visit, together with a Hill Tribe national guide, I noticed there were two churches in the village. "Why two churches" I asked, as it was only a small village. "They are different" my guide said. "One is Christian and the other Catholic".
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:45 PM   #612
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Another Australian news item:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-0...-abuse/8680158


I know this was discussed in another thread but I see the relevance to this discussion also.

Referring to abaddon's earlier account of the divorced lady being refused the sacrament by the ranting priest, one can see why this may be causing even more to leave the church.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:03 PM   #613
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Demonstrably false.

is something that one expects will be followed by the demonstration of it, but one would be waiting quite a while for it!

The suggestion that Saudi Arabia does not suppress Christianity is so utterly ridiculous it is amazing that the words were typed on this website.

Just really remarkable, utterly mindblowing.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 10:15 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog
Not in those countries where being Catholic or Christian is officially or as a practical matter suppressed!

Thanks for helping me absolutely crush this argument big time!!

FANTASTIC!!
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Name those countries.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Saudi Arabia
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Demonstrably false.
I hate to disagree, but in this case Big Dog has (finally) got something right

I have friends working in Saudi and even foreign workers invited into the country keep their religion (or lack of it) very quiet, public expressions of any other faith is banned, and atheists are technically to be executed!
Any other religions are banned from any public displays and even `private' gatherings are not encouraged in the foreign workers, as one of my friends said "if you have to pray, do it inside your head and in your own room by yourself"
Gatherings of foreign workers have been broken up by the 'religious police' whatever they are called, begins with m, and they have been charged and in some cases deported. If there are any locals involved in any other religions or even atheists, they are keeping their heads well down while still inside Saudi

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove relatively innocuous remark that was misunderstood and caused a derailing bickerfest
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Old 4th November 2017, 02:56 PM   #615
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It may have been a slip of the pen (or more correctly a bad key stroke) by abaddon but unfortunately it allowed The Big Dog to use the distraction to duck the other questions pending.

I would really, really, like some answers about his take, on the severe infighting between the hierarchy of the church and the Pope, among other things he continually sidesteps.
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:57 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
I hate to disagree, but in this case Big Dog has (finally) got something right

I have friends working in Saudi and even foreign workers invited into the country keep their religion (or lack of it) very quiet, public expressions of any other faith is banned, and atheists are technically to be executed!
Any other religions are banned from any public displays and even `private' gatherings are not encouraged in the foreign workers, as one of my friends said "if you have to pray, do it inside your head and in your own room by yourself"
Gatherings of foreign workers have been broken up by the 'religious police' whatever they are called, begins with m, and they have been charged and in some cases deported. If there are any locals involved in any other religions or even atheists, they are keeping their heads well down while still inside Saudi

Edited by Agatha:  edited previously moderated content
..
Edited by Agatha:  edited response to previously moderated content
Saudi Arabia is a repressive Islamic theocracy which still executes people for witchcraft and bans all non muslims from even setting foot in two of its cities. If you feel the need for a shower after telling that truth you might not be as rational or as skeptic as you like to believe.

I don't know what infighting, if any, is taking place between the Catholic hierarchy and the Pope but it wouldn't surprise me because the Church needs to modernise and reform in various ways and this Pope seems to know it. Reforms rarely take place in any institution without some kind of resistance and backlash, especially in a large, global institution like the Catholic Church.

Last edited by Agatha; 13th November 2017 at 06:22 AM.
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:13 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Edited by Agatha:  edited previously moderated content
Saudi Arabia is a repressive Islamic theocracy which still executes people for witchcraft and bans all non muslims from even setting foot in two of its cities. If you feel the need for a shower after telling that truth you might not be as rational or as skeptic as you like to believe.

I don't know what infighting, if any, is taking place between the Catholic hierarchy and the Pope but it wouldn't surprise me because the Church needs to modernise and reform in various ways and this Pope seems to know it. Reforms rarely take place in any institution without some kind of resistance and backlash, especially in a large, global institution like the Catholic Church.
Edited by Agatha:  edited response to previously moderated content


Abaddon kindly gave us a link to an article in The Guardian about the infighting in the Catholic hierarchy a couple of pages back. I thought you were part of the discussion back then but if not here it is again. The article speaks of a number of high up clergy writing an open letter to the Pope.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...t-pope-francis
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:32 PM   #618
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I found something else of pertinence to this discussion in the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/us...-celibacy.html

Quote:
Francis Moloney, a senior professorial fellow at Catholic Theological College in Melbourne, says there is an "urgent need" for the Church to rethink itís teaching on divorce and remarriage.
Doing so, he says, could help to address the issue of domestic violence in Catholic marriages.
(The Catholic Church does not recognise the re-marriage of a divorced person unless an annulment is granted determining that a valid, sacramental marriage never occurred in the first place.)

The Church's teaching on the indissolubility of marriage can exacerbate already abusive marriages, said Professor Moloney, a priest of the Salesians of Don Bosco, because it can lead couples to believe there is "no exit".
"Once they wrongly have it in their minds and hearts that there is no escape, deeper depression and violence sets in," he said.

The indissolubility of marriage is a large boulder on the road, hindering the progress of the RCC to fit in more comfortably with modern day trends. Abaddon told us a story, back a few pages, about a priest who refused to give a divorcee the sacrament, and the whole congregation walked out in support of the woman. This is more a case of the church driving people away than people walking away of their own accord.
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:18 PM   #619
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Edited by Agatha:  edited previously moderated content


Abaddon kindly gave us a link to an article in The Guardian about the infighting in the Catholic hierarchy a couple of pages back. I thought you were part of the discussion back then but if not here it is again. The article speaks of a number of high up clergy writing an open letter to the Pope.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...t-pope-francis
The link is broken. Here's the corrected one: The War Against Pope Francis.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:57 PM   #620
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I'm just wondering what our Catholic members think of a country that would appoint, as it's Ambassador to the Holy See, a woman married to a divorced man with whom she was having sexual relations while he was married to someone else?
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Old 11th November 2017, 02:09 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm just wondering what our Catholic members think of a country that would appoint, as it's Ambassador to the Holy See, a woman married to a divorced man with whom she was having sexual relations while he was married to someone else?

Yes I can imagine some awkwardness as a result of this. Who are we talking about?
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Old 12th November 2017, 05:17 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm just wondering what our Catholic members think of a country that would appoint, as it's Ambassador to the Holy See, a woman married to a divorced man with whom she was having sexual relations while he was married to someone else?
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes I can imagine some awkwardness as a result of this. Who are we talking about?
That would be the new US Ambassador. Doesn't seem to be bothering anyone at all. Her husband was conveniently able to get his previous marriage annulled on account of his wife of 19 years having been previously married. So had he, in fact he was cheating with her when he served divorce papers on his first wife while she was in the hospital after cancer surgery. Just fine upstanding Catholics, the lot of them.
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Old 12th November 2017, 10:02 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Unfortunately for you there are 1.5 to 2 million christians in SA and they are happily tolerated.

But that doesn't matter anymore. Whatever it is that you believe, you are unwilling to defend it.

So direct question for you. What is it that you believe? and why do you believe it?

You do not have to answer, of course, but a lack of answer will draw conclusions as much as an answer.

You must understand that this is a discussion forum, and no discussion is possible when one "participant" refuses to post any content for discussion.
Happily tolerated? Oh man, that is a laughable joke.
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Old 12th November 2017, 11:23 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Happily tolerated? Oh man, that is a laughable joke.
Yes. There are. You can ignore the facts all you like. But I notice that you had no response at all to the meat of the question. Because you plainly have none. It seems to me that you are afraid to commit to any god at all. Feel free to contradict me, but so far, you are an atheist. you will endorse no god.

Why?
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Old 13th November 2017, 07:33 AM   #625
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Mod Warning Discerning readers will note that several posts have been edited and a bunch sent to The Place Where Bad Posts Go.

Will you all kindly remember to be civil and polite, even when (perhaps especially when) you disagree fundamentally with another member.
Posted By:Agatha
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Old 13th November 2017, 06:39 PM   #626
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Thanks Agatha.

The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse is winding up soon and the chairman has once again drawn attention the Catholic Church.

Quote:
'Impossible not to share the anger'

Justice McClellan drew particular attention the Roman Catholic Church, which had the highest number of alleged perpetrators and abused children.
"Alleged perpetrators were often allowed to have access to children even when religious leaders knew they posed a danger," he said.
"Alleged perpetrators were often transferred to another location where they had access to children but were never reported to police."
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Old 18th November 2017, 01:34 PM   #627
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oh, look
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Old 18th November 2017, 01:58 PM   #628
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post

Once again an article with a familiar ring to it:

Quote:
It is also reported that the abbey asked the court not to allow the claim because the seriousness of the allegations was likely to attract attention that may threaten the continued existence of the abbey.

Oh yes! The good name of the abbey and church must be protected.
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