ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

Reply
Old 27th July 2017, 04:59 AM   #161
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,604
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I would caution against the assumption that everyone else's experience is the same as one's own. Even just going by the numbers, a majority of priests don't molest.

The Principle of Charity is dead in this thread, it seems.
Yeah, it's too bad the policy (unofficial or not) was to cover up these heinous crimes. Makes everyone look bad. Makes folks . . . uncharitable towards the abusers and enablers.
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane
Resume is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th July 2017, 05:05 AM   #162
Damien Evans
Up The Irons
Tagger
 
Damien Evans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,748
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, it's still the largest religious denomination in Australia, so I'm going to say no, it's probably not in freefall.
I'd wager at least 3.5 million of those 5 million haven't been to church since they were 10.
__________________
i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.
Damien Evans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th July 2017, 05:12 AM   #163
Damien Evans
Up The Irons
Tagger
 
Damien Evans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,748
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Assuming Sydney as the destination, it's not that bad: 22 Mm (Mega meters) via L.A. vs. 16 Mm via Singapore. But still, you're right, 6 Mm is a lot of a difference.

Some years ago, I flew with my mother, then 80 years old, from Frankfurt, Germany to Auckland, NZ. The way to via Vancouver was 19.3 Mm, the way back via Hong Kong was 18.2 Mm - a negligible difference, and with two nights in both Vancouver and HK, we managed the jet lag great.

I underestimated the effect the distances AUC-SYD and FRA-ROM would have.

(Distances determined using http://tjpeiffer.com/crowflies.html )
Auckland is as far east of Melbourne as Moscow is of Paris.
__________________
i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.
Damien Evans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th July 2017, 07:52 AM   #164
llwyd
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 398
One heartily hopes...
llwyd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th July 2017, 02:19 PM   #165
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,958
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I think the question about bringing perjury charges against Pell is rather academic. If he is found guilty then he could be facing a long prison sentence. If you spell not guilty then trying to prove a charge of perjury would be difficult.

Edit. October is just the date of his next court appearance, not the start of his trial.

The charge of perjury would not be about his own physical involvement in child sex abuse, but his evidence about the covering up thereof. Therefore I can't see how the result of his trial will effect the other.

Thanks for the info about the trial. These legal proceedings are confusing.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 06:37 PM   #166
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,958
And so it goes on. It would seem the Catholic Church is only paying lip service to the ideal of caring for the abused. The actions are still consistently about caring for the church and it's assets.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-0...actics/8763302


Quote:
In 2014, the church conceded under oath at the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse some of its legal tactics were unfair "from a Christian point of view".

Why would bishops and archbishops use unchristian tactics?

Because they have saved the Australian arm of the Roman Catholic Church its cities of riches.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.

Last edited by Thor 2; 5th August 2017 at 06:41 PM.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2017, 08:02 AM   #167
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,954
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
And so it goes on. It would seem the Catholic Church is only paying lip service to the ideal of caring for the abused. The actions are still consistently about caring for the church and it's assets.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-0...actics/8763302
Were any of the legal defenses improper from a legal standard, because I know that when I want an astute legal analysis I want it from a former "footballer."
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2017, 09:17 AM   #168
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,889
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Were any of the legal defenses improper from a legal standard, because I know that when I want an astute legal analysis I want it from a former "footballer."
Oh dear. Not holding a christian standard, then.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2017, 09:31 AM   #169
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,954
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Oh dear. Not holding a christian standard, then.
I notice the footballer failed to provide a source for that claim, and given what we know about the ABC and their "citation" methods in their anti-religion articles...

Well a skeptic would take that with a grain of salt.

That being said, I see nothing unchristian about raising legal defenses to legal claims.
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2017, 09:47 AM   #170
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,889
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I notice the footballer failed to provide a source for that claim, and given what we know about the ABC and their "citation" methods in their anti-religion articles...

Well a skeptic would take that with a grain of salt.

That being said, I see nothing unchristian about raising legal defenses to legal claims.
You think it's an isolated case of bias against your church?

Think again.15 years and still avoiding paying compensation. The legal matters are put to bed. Where is the christianity in that?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2017, 10:02 AM   #171
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,568
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Cardinal George Pell is taking leave of his Vatican duties after informing the Pope he plans to return to Australia to fight historical sexual assault charges in court and clear his name.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-2...tralia/8664516
That's local news. If you intended the topic to be local, you failed to express it clearly [And even locally, there's a massive non sequitur between the thread's title and the piece of news in the OP]

The RCC is a political party which has being operating during almost two millennia. It has tens of thousands of political committees that celebrate gatherings at least once a week. Its central headquarters is an independent country itself.

Hence, saying it's in free fall is a ridiculous notion.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2017, 02:52 PM   #172
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,958
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
That's local news. If you intended the topic to be local, you failed to express it clearly [And even locally, there's a massive non sequitur between the thread's title and the piece of news in the OP]

The RCC is a political party which has being operating during almost two millennia. It has tens of thousands of political committees that celebrate gatherings at least once a week. Its central headquarters is an independent country itself.

Hence, saying it's in free fall is a ridiculous notion.

Well all news is local to some degree I suppose. The piece of news in the OP was about the third highest ranking person in the Roman Catholic Church. He just happens to be an Australian.

As has been uncovered by the Royal Commission into child abuse the Catholic involvement is massive:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-0...sydney/8242600

Quote:
More than 20 per cent of the members of some Catholic religious orders — including Marist Brothers and Christian Brothers — were allegedly involved in child sexual abuse, a royal commission hearing in Sydney has been told.

Nearly 2,000 Catholic Church figures, including priests, religious brothers and sisters, and employees, were identified as alleged perpetrators in a report released by the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.

Regardless of the length of time the RCC has been around it can still plummet in a dramatic way.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.

Last edited by Thor 2; 6th August 2017 at 02:56 PM.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2017, 03:13 PM   #173
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,958
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Were any of the legal defenses improper from a legal standard, because I know that when I want an astute legal analysis I want it from a former "footballer."

What are you banging on about The Big Dog? Who is the former footballer .... Paul Kennedy?

Am not an expert on football and it's stars so this is news to me. Non the less I don't see why being a former footballer would disqualify you from being a person of some intellect - unless you were kicked in the head at some time.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2017, 10:41 AM   #174
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,568
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Regardless of the length of time the RCC has been around it can still plummet in a dramatic way.
The RCC is like the army or the police department: men may fall, but the institution remains untouched.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2017, 12:00 PM   #175
ahhell
Muse
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 618
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Regardless of the length of time the RCC has been around it can still plummet in a dramatic way.
Sure but when was the last time a major world religion went away? Zoarastrianism, Manicheaism? It can happen but it rarely does, especially not without a conquest of some sort.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2017, 02:22 PM   #176
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,103
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Sure but when was the last time a major world religion went away? Zoarastrianism, Manicheaism? It can happen but it rarely does, especially not without a conquest of some sort.
It probably will be around for a long time. But its influence and following will decline, even more than other religions.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2017, 02:35 PM   #177
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,958
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
It probably will be around for a long time. But its influence and following will decline, even more than other religions.

Yes no doubt it will hang on in a diminished form but only be a shadow of its former self - well in the West anyway.

https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/05/1...-denomination/

Quote:
A report released Tuesday by the Pew Forum finds that the total number of Catholics in the United States dropped by 3 million since 2007, now comprising about 20 percent - or one-fifth - of the total population.
And perhaps more troubling for the church, for every one Catholic convert, more than six Catholics leave the church. Taken a step further, Catholicism loses more members than it gains at a higher rate than any other denomination, with nearly 13 percent of all Americans describing themselves as “former Catholics.”

And.

http://www.salon.com/2015/05/21/the_...r_the_country/


Quote:
But now it appears that the Catholic Church is in a demographic free-fall, as it sheds adherents faster than any faith other than the mainline Protestant denominations, which have been in decline for decades. Nearly one-third of all American adults were raised Catholic, but a stunning 41 percent—four in ten of those who marched to the alter in their little white First Communion dresses and suits—no longer identify with Catholicism.

Someone else is using the term free-fall also.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2017, 04:26 PM   #178
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 5,235
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Sure but when was the last time a major world religion went away? Zoarastrianism, Manicheaism? It can happen but it rarely does, especially not without a conquest of some sort.
To answer that, we'd have to define "major" and "world" in the context of a religion. Of the three primary monotheistic religions, the Jews became a "world" religion primarily through the diaspora, and Christianity and Islam through conquest and active missionary endeavours.

Possibly the most recent religion that had a large number of active adherents or believers and subsequently go extinct was the Norse (Thor, Odin, Freyja and the lot.) For the most part they converted to Christianity.
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2017, 04:35 PM   #179
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,451
Hopefully!!! And may the fundies of all stripes do the same. Swiftly and permanently!!!!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2017, 04:59 PM   #180
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,568
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Possibly the most recent religion that had a large number of active adherents or believers and subsequently go extinct was the Norse (Thor, Odin, Freyja and the lot.) For the most part they converted to Christianity.
Yes, if you're an unrepentant Eurocentric.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 12:19 AM   #181
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,103
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes no doubt it will hang on in a diminished form but only be a shadow of its former self - well in the West anyway.

https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/05/1...-denomination/




And.

http://www.salon.com/2015/05/21/the_...r_the_country/





Someone else is using the term free-fall also.
Looks like the % of Christians in the USA is falling at the rate of 1% per year. In 2014 71% were Christian. This means that around 2091 there will be no Christians left in USA. Though immigration will alter this figure.

The numbers you cite are a bit meaningless as they mix percentages with absolute numbers.

Edit. From the second link they give the % of Catholics dropping from 24 - 21% over 7 years. This means that Catholics in the USA will cease to exist in 49 years from 2014 which is 2063.

Last edited by rjh01; 8th August 2017 at 12:23 AM.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 03:55 AM   #182
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,568
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Looks like the % of Christians in the USA is falling at the rate of 1% per year. In 2014 71% were Christian. This means that around 2091 there will be no Christians left in USA.
You have there the typical non sequitur of randi/internationalwhatnots forum's: It's the period between "year" and "In".

That's also a failed induced inference, another means for manipulation this website should be fighting against and not promoting.

-------------------------------------------------------

It's appalling to see how sin seems to be the part of religion that attracts people -both insiders and outsiders- into these discussions.

Besides, the existence of catholic priests abusing girls doesn't seem to cast so much attention, except to come through as "thorough", in the same way movies about Vikings cast one or two coloured people just to meet union requirements and some ill expectations of a bigot-by-political-correctedness public.

It's the both homosexual and paedophile the ones who have users flocking into these threads. That's very telling.

There's certainly no real evidence of any god and regarding the Christian, the misconstruction of the death of a real life saint by his ignorant foul smelling sidekicks into a false resurrection, plus an additional schizo who even never knew the saint but crossed paths with him in the windmill of his mind to later pontificate about the meaning of the saint's path in Earth, all leading to a Trinity and other artefactual developments, all to be sold to the gentile, this whole thing only makes Christianity into the longest lasting marketing campaign in history.

But in spite of that, there's no decline towards extinction either for Christianity or any other time tested religion, just because you can't phase out human instincts at will. Not yours, and certainly not other's. That's why from Joseph Smith to Hubbard and Moon, they continue to appear new outrageous developments that suck up from those instincts.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 04:05 AM   #183
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,978
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You think it's an isolated case of bias against your church?

Think again.15 years and still avoiding paying compensation. The legal matters are put to bed. Where is the christianity in that?
But you need to punish those little perverts for seducing good priests.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 05:59 AM   #184
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 5,235
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Yes, if you're an unrepentant Eurocentric.
Point taken. Given that you're in South America, are you thinking of indigenous religions that have gone extinct because their followers either died out or were actively killed off?
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 07:37 AM   #185
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,568
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Point taken. Given that you're in South America, are you thinking of indigenous religions that have gone extinct because their followers either died out or were actively killed off?
The Inca Empire (some 12 to 20 million inhabitants) had its mythology imposed all over its domain with a great deal of syncretism. Christianity absorbed that and took advantage of that syncretism, that's why you have in my country the Pachamama festival, where "Mother Earth" has being absorbed by Virgin Mary, yet "pagan" traditions survive within.

Protestants and Evangelic tend to consider that a devilish papist contamination (thus, just for a cultural reflex, those even Atheists grown in the Bible Belt flock here to enjoy commenting on the pederasty of any Catholic priest).

On the whole, the RCC is more able to admit different cultural backgrounds -and less freedom to speculate about what the dogma is- than her Reformed counterparts, which only want to defeat and impose their different visions. That's why New Orleans, and not Boston, is the place for a Mardi Gras.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 08:17 AM   #186
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,889
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
The Inca Empire (some 12 to 20 million inhabitants) had its mythology imposed all over its domain with a great deal of syncretism. Christianity absorbed that and took advantage of that syncretism, that's why you have in my country the Pachamama festival, where "Mother Earth" has being absorbed by Virgin Mary, yet "pagan" traditions survive within.

Protestants and Evangelic tend to consider that a devilish papist contamination (thus, just for a cultural reflex, those even Atheists grown in the Bible Belt flock here to enjoy commenting on the pederasty of any Catholic priest).

On the whole, the RCC is more able to admit different cultural backgrounds -and less freedom to speculate about what the dogma is- than her Reformed counterparts, which only want to defeat and impose their different visions. That's why New Orleans, and not Boston, is the place for a Mardi Gras.
At first blush, it would seem that such a thing would be a good point for the RCC, no?

Well, no. That simply means that the RCC will say, do and accept anything in the quest for new marks.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 08:56 AM   #187
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,568
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
At first blush, it would seem that such a thing would be a good point for the RCC, no?

Well, no. That simply means that the RCC will say, do and accept anything in the quest for new marks.
It's the difference between Ebola and common flu. A virus like Ebola is bound to disappear in a few human generations even without modern medicine, just because it's so virulent it kills the host before it's successfully spread. That's why it's outbreak, another outbreak, another outbreak, extinction (unless it mutates into something less virulent). Common flu is a foolish virus which is so slow to get the host ill that it's already being spread from the very beginning. It leaves the host ambulatory, so they can get more people infected. And it's so clumsy using the genetic machinery of the hosts that it creates a lot of mutated copies, most of them a failure, a few of them changed exactly as it's needed to avoid the defences of hosts, giving birth to next year strains.

RCC is like the flu. Syncretism is the way to overcome the defences of invaded groups.

I can live with the Catholic flu. The Ebola Belt, with its fighting Darwin in the outskirts of science and other equally horrifying treats, I'm not so sure about that.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 09:04 AM   #188
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 14,168
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
It's the difference between Ebola and common flu. A virus like Ebola is bound to disappear in a few human generations even without modern medicine, just because it's so virulent it kills the host before it's successfully spread. That's why it's outbreak, another outbreak, another outbreak, extinction (unless it mutates into something less virulent). Common flu is a foolish virus which is so slow to get the host ill that it's already being spread from the very beginning. It leaves the host ambulatory, so they can get more people infected. And it's so clumsy using the genetic machinery of the hosts that it creates a lot of mutated copies, most of them a failure, a few of them changed exactly as it's needed to avoid the defences of hosts, giving birth to next year strains.

RCC is like the flu. Syncretism is the way to overcome the defences of invaded groups.

I can live with the Catholic flu. The Ebola Belt, with its fighting Darwin in the outskirts of science and other equally horrifying treats, I'm not so sure about that.
Well put. I always admired how Central Americans preserved their polytheistic culture within Catholicism through the use of saints.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 09:34 AM   #189
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,568
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Well put. I always admired how Central Americans preserved their polytheistic culture within Catholicism through the use of saints.
But that's a region of week culture. Take a look at these figures and the viral expansion of Evangelic Ebola. Cultureless people -not European nor Indians, in spite of their 30/70 makeup, that is, less White than Obama; not Westerners nor aboriginal; speaking an extremely limited Spanish and having lost their original languages; in a nutshell: people who doesn't belong to anything- are an easy target for Pentecostal, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who will in turn brainwash and reprogram them into fifth class Usians and have them ringing doorbells in search for new victims.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.

Last edited by aleCcowaN; 8th August 2017 at 09:37 AM.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 02:23 PM   #190
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,958
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But you need to punish those little perverts for seducing good priests.

Yes it is mind blowing that some in the RCC have pushed this line. Desperation comes to mind.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 02:34 PM   #191
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,958
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Well put. I always admired how Central Americans preserved their polytheistic culture within Catholicism through the use of saints.

Perhaps also why Catholicism has been so successful in it's recruitment in different cultures. Central America is a prime example and I have seen it in the hill tribes of Thailand also.

Seems somewhat contradictory however for a religion that claims to be "the one true church" and maintains the facade of being unchanging through time.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2017, 03:00 PM   #192
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,568
That's just the most a Christian denomination can match the Pepsi challenge.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2017, 01:17 AM   #193
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,103
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
You have there the typical non sequitur of randi/internationalwhatnots forum's: It's the period between "year" and "In".

That's also a failed induced inference, another means for manipulation this website should be fighting against and not promoting.
This makes no sense at all to me. If you had said my post is a gross simplification of the facts then I would agree.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2017, 03:08 AM   #194
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,568
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
This makes no sense at all to me. If you had said my post is a gross simplification of the facts then I would agree.
Oh, the o'le "it's OK because I did it".

Which of both parts of your doing you didn't understand?

Using linear trends in the mind of the uneducated folk is a book example of induced inference: "religious people dropped from 80% in 2000 to 70% in 2010 so by 2080 there will be no religious people", where the text in the quotations is the induced inference and that "so", the place where the non sequitur is committed.

The fact that you deceived yourself and/or are deceived by others in similar ways doesn't excuse you of the serious error you made in that assertion. You acted like an induced inference is normal reasoning and not just a pure piece of manipulation. And you did it in the public sections of a forum supposedly devoted to promote critical thinking and scepticism.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2017, 04:58 AM   #195
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,103
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Oh, the o'le "it's OK because I did it".

Which of both parts of your doing you didn't understand?

Using linear trends in the mind of the uneducated folk is a book example of induced inference: "religious people dropped from 80% in 2000 to 70% in 2010 so by 2080 there will be no religious people", where the text in the quotations is the induced inference and that "so", the place where the non sequitur is committed.

The fact that you deceived yourself and/or are deceived by others in similar ways doesn't excuse you of the serious error you made in that assertion. You acted like an induced inference is normal reasoning and not just a pure piece of manipulation. And you did it in the public sections of a forum supposedly devoted to promote critical thinking and scepticism.
The slope of the trend line is unknown. So the simplest guess is to use straight lines. This would be accurate if the only people who are ever going to be Catholic are already Catholic. In reality all sorts of things complicate this picture. For example some children will become Catholic. Or maybe there might be a mass exodus, like they are exposed as tolerating abuse of children within their ranks. I did not bother to state that in my original post as I thought it too obvious.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2017, 05:01 AM   #196
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,978
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes it is mind blowing that some in the RCC have pushed this line. Desperation comes to mind.
It isn't even surprising it is their first line of defense.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2017, 05:09 AM   #197
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,889
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The slope of the trend line is unknown. So the simplest guess is to use straight lines. This would be accurate if the only people who are ever going to be Catholic are already Catholic. In reality all sorts of things complicate this picture. For example some children will become Catholic. Or maybe there might be a mass exodus, like they are exposed as tolerating abuse of children within their ranks. I did not bother to state that in my original post as I thought it too obvious.
Perhaps asymptotically tending towards yet never quite reaching zero.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2017, 05:30 AM   #198
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 13,152
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The slope of the trend line is unknown. So the simplest guess is to use straight lines. This would be accurate if the only people who are ever going to be Catholic are already Catholic. In reality all sorts of things complicate this picture. For example some children will become Catholic. Or maybe there might be a mass exodus, like they are exposed as tolerating abuse of children within their ranks. I did not bother to state that in my original post as I thought it too obvious.

Actually, no. Straight lines might be the "simplest" guess in terms of the resulting calculations, but it's far from the simplest model of what's actually happening in cases like this. An equal number of members leaving the group every time period (a straight-line trend) would be reasonable in a scenario where the total number of members were only changing by a small factor over the whole time period. But when you're extending the trend toward extinction, the assumption of equal numbers (per unit time) leaving the group, simultaneously assumes an ever-larger fraction of them (per unit time) doing so. Until during the period from 2070 to 2080, in the example case, all of the remaining ones leave. (And then, continuing the trend, by 2090 there would be a large negative number of members, whatever that means.)

If you instead extrapolate based on a constant fraction of existing members departing per specified time interval, the resulting exponential decay function is much better behaved. The trend of 80% in 2000 to 70% in 2010 extrapolates to about 33.5% in 2080.
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...

Last edited by Myriad; 9th August 2017 at 05:35 AM.
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2017, 05:44 AM   #199
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 7,568
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The slope of the trend line is unknown. So the simplest guess is to use straight lines.
"The slope of the trend line" ... "so" ... "is to use straight lines"? It translates as "it's linear, so I'll consider it to be linear".

No. The simplest guess is considering it "exponential" -logistic, to be exact-. That if a trend line would help to predict values way out of its time span.

Telling that Christians are going to disappear by 2080 and telling that by 2180 a 200% of the population will be "not a Christian" are equally wrong. I suppose seeing Christianity vanished is a wish of yours, so when you arrived to 0 you stopped.

Linear trends are intuitive to people 8 or 9 years old, that's why they can learn the rule of three at school. Stopping there and having the rest of your life at that level is just some personal doing of which everyone should take responsibility.

Most of any other thing, in a website about scepticism everyone should put reason before personal expectations. I don't tell that to the hopeless people who flood this website with their epistemological hedonism. I'm telling you just because you usually do much better than this. I'd never imagine you being one of them. It's just that we, sceptical thinkers and non-Theists, hold ourselves to much higher moral and intellectual standards than those of Theists. Both Theists and non-Theist would be horrified just by the notion of killing someone. But non-Theists may be also horrified by the ability of Theists to self-servingly manufacture pet gods out of thin air. Don't stoop to their level. Don't allow any wish to perturb your reasoning.

ETA: ninja'd by Myriad (regarding the trends)
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!
These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.

Last edited by aleCcowaN; 9th August 2017 at 05:45 AM.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2017, 02:05 PM   #200
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,958
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Perhaps asymptotically tending towards yet never quite reaching zero.

Yes there will always be some who will stick with the church no matter what. I would suggest even if the pope came out of the closet as a homosexual atheist, there would be a group stubbornly clutching their rosaries.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:53 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.