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Old 2nd July 2017, 01:34 AM   #1
magellan
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Mod Info This is a continuation of this thread. As is usual, the split point is arbitrary and participants are free to quote/copy & paste from the previous iteration of the thread.
Posted By:Agatha




Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
She presented some(weak) evidence that supported Henry McPhee's claim. You should have done that.



Earlier you made a big deal about knowing the definition of "legitimate".

It means legal. Note the "leg" at the beginning of both words, same root.
Wrong.
A government is a body that makes the rules, interprets them and executes them. All governments are legal. Syria as well as the IS and Donbas and Ukraine. Even if you form a government while breaking a rule you will later just rewrite the rule or reinterpret it. (As happened in Ukraine)

Legitimacy is something else.

Quote:
Bashir al-Assad inhereted the presidency from his father. This illegal but not unexpected seizure of power was "legitimized" by an election rigged in that they only allowed one candidate.
How was it illegal? Against what laws? You keep saying inherited but that's not what happened. Hafed al Assad didn't leave a will, giving the presidency to his son.

Quote:
Ignoring the obvious rigging of an election doesn't make the issue go away, it only makes you look disingenuous. If you want to pretend there is nothing unusual about results that one sided in a nation that fractured (even before the civil war) go on, but the rest of us don't need to pretend stupidity.
You should read up on the process. It's the same way Merkel got 95% last February in Stralsund. I guess that was obviously rigged too?

Quote:
Some people support Assad because of his closeness to Putin. They believe Putin will be able to prop up Assad, prevent the formation of a Kurdish state which would likely be friendly to the United States. A state that could someday host a US military base uncomfortably close to Iran, Syria, and a whole slew of territories Russia might want to expand into soon.
Boring "Russia evil US good" - BS. After almost 20 Years of american agression I really can't buy into that anymore.

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Old 2nd July 2017, 08:08 AM   #2
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You quoted it twice, bro. Post #3585, where I challenged the assertion that the Assad government is legitimate by asking what makes it legitimate. Answer the challenge or not, your choice. I can't dumb it down any more than I already have.



Will do, but for right now we'll see if anyone can demonstrate the legitimacy of the Assad government. So far neither you nor Henry McPhee has even attempted.

Just a reminder because you don't seem to understand, the burden of proof is on the claimant. That doesn't put any obligation on the one who demands that proof to make any argument themselves.

What that means, and I'm trying to dumb this down as much as possible, is that if you're waiting for me to make some argument, then you're missing the point. The next step is for you, Henry McPhee, or whoever wants to, to produce some factual evidence that supports the legitimacy of the Assad government.

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The point is that if the Russians tried to topple the government in Saudi Arabia and interfere in its elections, and criticise the Saudis for human rights abuses, and launch aggressive war against it, then the American military and security and media complex would say that is not in the American national interest, or American economic interests, or even against international law. You can't have it both ways, or rush off to war at a chemical attack by Isis and Al Nusra, pretending it to be from Assad. North Korea is a communist fascist country, but there needs to be due and careful thought about it before you start moaning about appeasement.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 03:09 AM   #3
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I agree that political action is based on philosophies of power - whether the state should own certain kinds of asset, or operate certain activities, whether the State should use force for certain ends, whether the State should co-operate with other States for certain purposes.

There are lots of countries which have governments which I don't like, like Argentina and South Sudan and Zimbabwe and Eritrea, and others, but I don't propose dropping a nuclear bomb on them in order to avoid appeasement. Sometimes you have just got to say that we shall be unable to maintain even the appearance of friendly relations and use a bit of subtlety. Israel just uses endless negotiation.

I suppose you could say that Tanzania's invasion of Uganda in about 1978 to topple the tyrant Idi Amin broke international law, but there are doubts about that:

Quote:
On October 27, 1978 Ugandan forces carried out a surprise invasion of the Tanzanian territory, annexing the Kagera Salient (area north of Kagera River).

The area had been defended by the 202 Brigade commanded by Brig Gen Yusuf Himid. Within two days of the invasion, Ugandan troops occupied 1,850 sqkm of Tanzanian soil, after bombing Bukoba and Kyaka towns and blowing up the Kagera Bridge which connected the salient to the rest of Tanzania. Amin went ahead and announced that the Kagera Salient was now part of Ugandan territory.

Tanzania reacts

Tanzanian President Julius Nyerere’s first reaction was to seek a diplomatic solution to the conflict through the Organisation of the African Union (OAU) now African Union. When the OAU failed to act, President Nyerere on November 2, 1978 declared war on Uganda calling on the TPDF to defend the national sovereignty and integrity.

“The world must understand our reason for wanting to hit Amin hard. Sababu za kumpiga Amin tunazo, nia tunayo, na uwezo tunao” meaning “We have the reasons to hit Amin, we have the ability to hit him and we have the determination to hit him),” said Nyerere at the Diamond Jubilee Hall in Dar es Salaam as he formally declared war on Uganda.
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Old 7th July 2017, 07:46 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by magellan View Post
If you weren't "just asking a question" what was your intent with that question? Please stop wasting my time.
That's rich, my friend.
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The next step is for you, Henry McPhee, or whoever wants to, to produce some factual evidence that supports the legitimacy of the Assad government.
Hama rules. His dad established that criterion. Syria ain't where you live.
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post

2)Subsequent plebiscites gave him ridiculous majorities around the 98th percentile. Naturally, these elections were widely condemned worldwide except for the usual suspects that did not.

3)The most recent plebiscite, the only contested plebiscite in the history of Syria (contested in this context means there was someone else to vote for) won him a ridiculous majority around the 89th percentile. Naturally, this election was widely condemned worldwide except for the usual suspects that did not.
He won the election. That counts for something, doesn't it?
Allende won an election.
Look, Bashar Al Assad is never going to enter my hall of fame of people who I admire, but the facts of the matter are that in a part of the world where the freaking King of Saudi Arabia is a legitimate head of state, then Bashar Al Assad getting it from his dad is as legit as any of the fruitbat emirs just east of him.
They have seats at the UN also. And those (rule 10's) have been feeding millions of dollars to his opponents.

This quibbling over legitimacy by outsiders is somewhat bizarre. The quibbling by all of the people in Syria has its merits, to be sure.
Now let's look at the French Republic. I think they are up to being the Fifth Republic, right?
For it to ever happened, First, Second, Third, Fourth, or Fifth, a Hell of a Lot of Blood had to Flow. More than once.
Syria is just doing as we nice westerners have done in setting the example for how to change government.
First, fight a bloody war.
Then, when people are done fighting, get that election thing worked on.
They are in the middle bit, where the war isn't over yet.
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Old 31st July 2017, 08:52 AM   #5
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Has everybody now forgotten about Syria and Syrian refugees, or is the CIA now just concentrating on toppling the bus driver government in Venezuela and interfering in their elections?
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Old 31st July 2017, 10:49 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Has everybody now forgotten about Syria and Syrian refugees, or is the CIA now just concentrating on toppling the bus driver government in Venezuela and interfering in their elections?
Just curious... is this a direct quote from RT, or did you kinda put it into your own words?
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Old 27th August 2017, 12:18 PM   #7
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Just today, one of the very last ISIS strongholds in Iraq, Tal Afar, fell after only two weeks or so. In Syria, the ISIS enclave at the Lebanese border surrendered, and one of the two large ISIS desert pockets has rapidly collapsed. The Russians estimate that there are 9,000 ISIS fighters left.

If you don't hear about that in the very fake news, think about the reasons.
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Old 28th August 2017, 05:32 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Just today, one of the very last ISIS strongholds in Iraq, Tal Afar, fell after only two weeks or so. In Syria, the ISIS enclave at the Lebanese border surrendered, and one of the two large ISIS desert pockets has rapidly collapsed. The Russians estimate that there are 9,000 ISIS fighters left.

If you don't hear about that in the very fake news, think about the reasons.
I've seen that in Reuters, CBC, BBC, and CNN feeds - and while good news, my own take on this is don't count the enemy out until the surrender documents are signed or the last holdout is taken out.
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Old 28th August 2017, 08:36 AM   #9
Henri McPhee
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I was under the impression that there is a new combination of about 20000 terrorists in Idlib province in Syria comprising of the old Al-Qaeda and Al-Nusra groups, and many other groups previously supported by America and Britain and Israel in order to topple Assad. They are head choppers and suicide bombers and they leave behind booby traps.

There is a bit about this in an interview with Assad on the internet:

Quote:
Question 4: Is it information, or is it an opinion?

President Assad: Information, everything, they were like one army; the terrorists, al-Nusra Front which is part of al-Qaeda, and the Turkish government or institutions or intelligence, were like one army in that battle, so it doesn’t depend on the weakening of our army. It depended more on how much support the terrorists have from Turkey.

Question 5: Turkey and Qatar and Saudi Arabia, they had an agenda four years ago. Did it change? Did they change that agenda?

President Assad: First of all, they’re not independent countries, so they won’t have their own agenda. Sometimes they have their own narrow-minded behavior or vengeful behavior or hateful behavior that’s been used by others’ agenda, let’s be frank here, sometimes the United States. So, we cannot say that they have their own agenda, but they haven’t changed. They still support the same terrorists, because this behavior is not related to the crisis in Syria. They supported the terrorists in Afghanistan, they supported the Wahhabi ideology, the extremism that led to terrorism recently in Europe, for decades, and now they are supporting the same ideology and the same factions under different labels and names in Syria. So, there’s nothing to change because this is their natural behavior.

Question 6: Which ideology you mean?

President Assad: The Wahhabi ideology, which forms the foundation for every terrorism in the world. No terrorist acts for the last decades in the Middle East and in the world happened without this ideology. Every terrorist bases his doctrine on the Wahhabi ideology.

Question 7: Wahhabi ideology, it’s linked to 9-11 and all the terrorist groups. Doesn’t the United States know about that link between Wahhabi ideology and terrorists? But they continue to support Saudi Arabia.

President Assad: This is a very important question, because the United States in the 1980s called the same groups of al-Qaeda and Taliban, in Afghanistan, they called them holy fighters, and that’s what president Bush described them as, holy fighters. And then, after the 11th of September 2001, they called them terrorists. The problem with the United States and of course some Western officials is that they think you can use terrorism as a card in your pocket, as a political card. Actually, terrorism is like a scorpion; whenever it has the chance, it will bite. So, they know, but they didn’t estimate how dangerous terrorism is to be used as a political card.
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Old 28th August 2017, 02:58 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I was under the impression that there is a new combination of about 20000 terrorists in Idlib province in Syria comprising of the old Al-Qaeda and Al-Nusra groups, and many other groups previously supported by America and Britain and Israel in order to topple Assad.

The same Russian estimate that has ISIS at 9,000 has the-al-Qaeda-group-formerly-known-as-al-Nusra at 15,000, 9,000 of them in Idlib province alone, and as you say they are sucking up the "moderate rebels" supported by "the West" under Obama. But their support among the people who now have experience living under their rules is at record low, even with these regions being historically most close to fanatic interpretations of Islam. Hence it is unlikely, also because Turkey now has chosen its allegiance east, not west, and cut the CIA rat lines, that these forces will be able to cause major trouble again.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 05:23 AM   #11
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Interesting read: The Reasons for Netanyahu’s Panic

Quote:
Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu is pushing the panic button over the collapse of the Saudi-Israeli jihadist proxies in Syria and now threatening to launch a major air war, as ex-British diplomat Alastair Crooke describes.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 11:05 AM   #12
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Quote:
President Assad: The Wahhabi ideology, which forms the foundation for every terrorism in the world. No terrorist acts for the last decades in the Middle East and in the world happened without this ideology. Every terrorist bases his doctrine on the Wahhabi ideology.
Right. No Shia ever committed a terrorist act. (Darn, my head hurts from how hard my eyes just rolled). However, within the current context, it would appear that more often than not the group Pres Assad names is most commonly behind that kind of activity.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:41 AM   #13
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A map showing the "agony" of ISIS from its heyday in 2015 to early September. A good two weeks later, Raqqa is 80% SDF-controlled, the siege of Deir ez-Zor is broken and the SAA has crossed the Euphrates there, while on both sides of the Iraqi-Syrian border respective loyalist forces advance from south-west towards the Euphrates at Abu Kamal / Al Qaim.
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Old 22nd September 2017, 10:50 AM   #14
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Meanwhile the Al Qaeda "rebels" in Idlib (very north-west on the map) have tried an offensive this week which according to the Russians cost them no less than 850 lives. In an unprecedented clarity, Russia accuses the United States "special agencies", i.e. CIA of having initiated the attack with the goal of capturing a Russian Military Police unit that was there in accordance to the agreement on the Idlib de-escalation zone recently finalized in Astana between Russia, Turkey and Iran, tolerated by the Syrian government. Unfortunately for the zombies, the military police unit consisted of Kadyrov's hardcore Chechens who managed to defend themselves until Russian special forces arrived. Read about the implications of this at the MoA link provided.
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Old 24th September 2017, 07:58 AM   #15
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Some BBC official reported on BBC TV News yesterday that Iran had test fired a NUCLEAR ballistic missile. I just think that's fake news and the BBC should be more careful about its language in an area which is dangerously stormy. Iran has a right to self defence.
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Old 24th September 2017, 11:42 AM   #16
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Henri, would you provide a link to the story? I doubt that what you typed is what was reported. I read other news reports that did not describe the missile as nuclear.
Quote:
WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump on Saturday pointed to a reported missile test by Iran to renew his criticism of the nuclear agreement it reached with the U.S. and other nations.

Iran’s Revolutionary Guard on Friday displayed its latest ballistic missile capable of reaching Israel and much of the Middle East. The U.S. opposes Iran’s ballistic missile program and Trump signed a bill last month imposing penalties on those involved with it.
So, once again Henri, when you don't know what you're talking about, it's usually best not to utter your usual nonsense.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:51 AM   #17
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News just in that Deir ez-Zor has been liberated by the Syrian Arab Army. ISIS is now basically reduced to two cities at the Euphrates on both sides of the Syrian-Iraqi border, Al Bukamal and Al Qaim, and both national loyalist forces are advancing with huge convoys through the desert to finish the job. If you want to witness the death of ISIS as a territory-controlling entity, now is the time.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 07:26 PM   #18
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Al Qaim liberated. PMU is chasing fleeing ISIS into Syria. Dominoes are falling quickly. Some wonder where all the foreign fighters went to. Well, recycled months ago already to Yemen, Philippines, Myanmar, etc, and Afghanistan to close the circle.
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:41 PM   #19
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Today they all met at the border: Iraqi and Syrian army, Hezbollah, Hashd al-Shaabi, Iranian Republican Guards, Tribal militias, etc, and swarmed up all together to finish off Al Bukamal in a single day, leaving nothing of ISIS but a couple of Ratmobiles in the desert.

That's it. Now the Yankee can go home, his excuse is no more. The "Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham" is history. Allahu Akbar!
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