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Tags assault incidents , Charlottesville riot , protest incidents , Virginia incidents , white supremacists

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Old 13th August 2017, 06:00 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Both sides suck but depending on what side you're on your side sucks just a little bit less.
Are suggesting that there are people out there thinking, "Man, those white supremacist Nazis yesterday weren't so bad..."?
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:03 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Were you a wiser man, you would know what a cum hoc ergo propter hoc is.
I know what it is. How is relevant to the conversation? Are you suggesting that the internet would've been developed under a monarchy? Or anarchy? Even if you're right, it wouldn't have developed when it did, so my point stands. Instead of trying to mirror my own words back at me, which I'm sure is very satisfying emotionally, how about you make a point?

Quote:
I'm not overstating anything, quite the opposite.
You're essentially calling them worthless monsters. How could that possibly be an understatement? Stop playing a role and start making some sense.

Quote:
I don't care about your anecdotal "interactions"
Then why are your views worth anything more?
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:04 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
And some are a-political fun-oriented fashion-wearing lefties with a knack for violent entertainment - extreme, reckless individualists.
Huh...?!
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:07 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Their trajectory is just as bad. It's the public receptivity to the amount of punishment that's allowed and degree of blind trust that named suspects are pretty much guilty as sin that determines how 'bad' they are. Being ostracized from social standing, having your property seized or attacked without recourse, constant harassment, humiliation, shame, words of degradation, etc.

Racism, Social Justice, Communism, McCarthyism, Fascism, Anti-Fascism, they can all reach fever pitch. They all use the same tools and follow the same progression.
Except the issue is that AntiFa doesn't have a central ideology that the rest of these things do, it simply can't gain the power to do what you claim because it has nothing to focus around other than getting rid of Fascism. Simply running on a Banner of "Get Rid of Trump and his Nazi's" isn't going to be enough for the left, and even if they did, and won, then when they did, they'd fall to pieces because they'd no longer have a target to galvanise them or a single ideology to hold them together.

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The Reign of Terror is example #1. We're smashing the decadent and abusive monarchy! We're liberating the people to rule themselves...just as soon as we eliminate more notable scholars and common peasantry than any adolescent royal brat could have ever dreamed of.

Hey, Gracchus wants to give the land back to the people and this jerk keeps using the veto. Let's 'gently usher him off the dias' and get on with the voting. It's for justice, after all.

I'm aware enough to realize that power likely doesn't bargain with the open hand (disciplined nonviolent resistance) unless there's a fist present, too.

I guess the best way I can put it is that I don't want the fist to be in charge, either.
It's funny that you bring this up because it's another classic example of what happens when you don't have a binding ideology beyond "getting rid of X."

With the French Revolution all the groups banned together to get rid of the Royals and Nobility, but once they had, and they had power themselves, they found that each group had a diverse number of Ideologies, and so they fell apart and started to attack each other. They were no longer the Revolutionaries, but rather a bunch of bickering individual groups.

In the same way, if AntiFa did win, and let's say that they managed a Tea Party and got into power. They'd fall apart and be unable to do anything because they'd be fighting and bickering with each other without the presence of the Alt-Right to keep them together. They would end up being as impotent as the current Republican Party is, if not worse.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:10 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Like they stood up to the Jews and slavery abolitionists.
And Suffragettes, and Civil Rights Activists, and Gay Rights Activists.....
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:13 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I know what it is.
Apparently not.

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How is relevant to the conversation?
Because you were using it.

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Are you suggesting that the internet would've been developed under a monarchy? Or anarchy? Even if you're right, it wouldn't have developed when it did, so my point stands.
No your point really doesn't stand at all. Even if we accept your contention, then it's still just a modern form of this:

"But how can you be against feudalism when you're wearing rags made under feudalism? Ha, checkmate, you *********** peasant! I'm such a wise man!"

Quote:
Instead of trying to mirror my own words back at me, which I'm sure is very satisfying emotionally, how about you make a point?
I have.

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Then why are your views worth anything more?
One unpleasant interaction is a tragedy, 300k yearly kills is a statistic.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:16 AM   #247
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"Oh crap a social/political issue with a clear cut bad guy. How will I affect my too cool for school going against the grain rebel act now? Oh I've got it... a meaningless truism about how any ideology can lead to extremism. It's technically true but completely pointless and irrelevant to this discussion. Perfect!"
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:19 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
One unpleasant interaction is a tragedy, 300k yearly kills is a statistic.
You realise that 300K is like a 10th of the population of the US? This stat seems to have come from the same orifice your 40 Countries attacked by the US since the Korean War came from.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:19 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
W...the police just stand by twiddling their fingers. Heck a non insignificant portion of them probably support them.

We can't count on the feds to stop them. Not with the very top of the federal government run by them now...
You are conflating the federal (and state) agencies of the police with the federal (perhaps state) ofices of elected politicians - or the government job of upholding laws with the political job of executing and developing laws.

This conflation in effect amounts to calling for a political police. That is totalitarian masturbation.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:19 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
What I'll say is this: at least someone is standing up to these fascist pricks. They gather and spread their genocidal ideology and the police just stand by twiddling their fingers. Heck a non insignificant portion of them probably support them.

We can't count on the feds to stop them. Not with the very top of the federal government run by them now. So who is going to stand up to these bullies? Or do we just lay down and hope they don't kill us when they go and kill the others?

I've been reading tons of books lately on the rise of fascism in Europe and my takeaway so far is that they put themselves in a position to murder tens of millions by everyone either not taking them seriously or being more worried about some phantom Communist boogeyman. No one stood up to them in any kind of forceful way until it was too late and I would really rather we not do the same thing here in America. If I'm being presented the choice of Nazis talking about race wars and a group of people that stand up to them that someone on the internet thinks are Stalinists (but otherwise don't seem to be advocating anything other than defending us from the fascists) well I'm definitely not picking the Nazis. And I'm also not just going to sit around doing nothing.
Yep. Antifa are trying to stop a heinous ideology from spreading. They are meeting the neo-nazis on their own terms, so yeah, they are a little rough around the edges. But the neos are un-American, and even inhuman in a limited sense. Singing Kumbaya is not the move when confronting a white supremacist. And they are becoming openly accepted in a certain political party, and becoming more normalized by the day. I think it's significantly more acceptable for antifa to crawl down in the gutter with the neos. These two groups are not roughly equal but on opposite ends of the spectrum. One is textbook evil, and the other wants to reject that evil, By Any Means Necessary.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:21 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Fascism was successful in Germany and Italy (though it could be argued IMO that apart from a common global brand Mussolini and Hitler and their regimes weren't alike at all) because enough people actively wanted it, not that the huge silent majority remained silent.

IMO that's the situation in the U.S. at the moment. White supremacism is on the rise because a majority of white people in the United States are either active supporters of it or are sufficiently tolerant of it for it to become the guiding tenet of on of its two major political parties.
Good post!
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:22 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You realise that 300K is like a 10th of the population of the US? This stat seems to have come from the same orifice your 40 Countries attacked by the US since the Korean War came from.
I think a little less than a 1/1000th, but your point is still clear.
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Last edited by Thermal; 13th August 2017 at 06:32 AM. Reason: still sleepy, typed wrong number
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:22 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Going by the flags in that group of people hit, I'm seeing plenty of communists of one persuasion or another. Mostly red, black, an IWW one, and a "red fist" one (presumably Trots?).
Foolish.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:23 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Yep. Antifa are trying to stop a heinous ideology from spreading. They are meeting the neo-nazis on their own terms, so yeah, they are a little rough around the edges. But the neos are un-American, and even inhuman in a limited sense. Singing Kumbaya is not the move when confronting a white supremacist. And they are becoming openly accepted in a certain political party, and becoming more normalized by the day. I think it's significantly more acceptable for antifa to crawl down in the gutter with the neos. These two groups are not roughly equal but on opposite ends of the spectrum. One is textbook evil, and the other wants to reject that evil, By Any Means Necessary.
Yeah, it's kind of like saying that the Allies were as bad at the Axis because they declared to war with them.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:23 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I think a little less than a 1/100th, but your point is still clear.
A little less than 1/1000th, actually, but the point still remains clear
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:24 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Are suggesting that there are people out there thinking, "Man, those white supremacist Nazis yesterday weren't so bad..."?
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people thinking that. Those people would be other white supremacists and Nazis.. ie, Trump supporters.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:26 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I think a little less than a 1/100th, but your point is still clear.
gah, yes, math is never my strong suit at 1:30am, then being awake at 1:30am isn't one of my strong suits either anymore.....

But yes, if 1% of the US population was being killed by the police each year it's likely that people might have noticed. For a start it'd be about 100 people a day rather than the 3 that we're actually seeing.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:27 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people thinking that. Those people would be other white supremacists and Nazis.. ie, Trump supporters.
The basket full of deplorables reveals itself.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:27 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You realise that 300K is like a 10th of the population of the US? This stat seems to have come from the same orifice your 40 Countries attacked by the US since the Korean War came from.
Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I think a little less than a 1/100th, but your point is still clear.
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
gah, yes, math is never my strong suit at 1:30am, then being awake at 1:30am isn't one of my strong suits either anymore.....

But yes, if 1% of the US population was being killed by the police each year it's likely that people might have noticed. For a start it'd be about 100 people a day rather than the 3 that we're actually seeing.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:28 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I take this to mean that you did get the number out of your arse
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:31 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I take this to mean that you did get the number out of your arse
Here you go: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Basic-Maths.../dp/1119974526
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:32 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
...
But yes, if 1% of the US population was being killed by the police each year ...
0.1%.

But that is not what Caveman claims. He claims there are 300,000 additional deaths due to poverty, lack of education and such thing - which he blames on capitalism (notwithstanding the obvious observation that the poor in ALL non-capitalist countries are a lot poorer, less educated and die sooner than the capitalist poor), which in turn he blames on police officers for enforcing the freedoms and rights that the constitution grants.

He equates liberal democracy with murderous capitalism and seeks to abolish BOTH. If by mass death of policemen and any other system supporters, then that should cause him much joy.

Caveman is a totalitarian militarist.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:43 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
You are conflating the federal (and state) agencies of the police with the federal (perhaps state) ofices of elected politicians - or the government job of upholding laws with the political job of executing and developing laws.

This conflation in effect amounts to calling for a political police. That is totalitarian masturbation.
When the states refused to segregate Eisenhower sent in the Army. I really don't see Trump sending in troops to stop fascists when local police aren't doing anything about them.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:47 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people thinking that. Those people would be other white supremacists and Nazis.. ie, Trump supporters.
And the closet white supremacists may see more of their kindred spirits being socially accepted. President Trump really needs to denounce these un-American neos, and sincere Republicans need to reject them from rallys. That they do not is very telling, IMO.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:51 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
0.1%.

But that is not what Caveman claims. He claims there are 300,000 additional deaths due to poverty, lack of education and such thing - which he blames on capitalism (notwithstanding the obvious observation that the poor in ALL non-capitalist countries are a lot poorer, less educated and die sooner than the capitalist poor), which in turn he blames on police officers for enforcing the freedoms and rights that the constitution grants.

He equates liberal democracy with murderous capitalism and seeks to abolish BOTH. If by mass death of policemen and any other system supporters, then that should cause him much joy.

Caveman is a totalitarian militarist.
Most weird when you compare life expectancies of countries. It's notable that the first non-democracy (or Democratic Republic if you want to differentiate between them) comes in at 32nd, being Cuba, after the US in 31st. China comes in 3.2 years less than the US and 7.6 years behind the likes of Japan. North Korea come in at 106th!

I'm not sure how totalitarianism is supposed to help extend people's lives when it clearly doesn't in actual totalitarian states. And if the police are so bad in western democracies (and Democratic Republics) then surely they must be even more terrible in a totalitarian regime where they are often used as death squads quite literally.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:53 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
When the states refused to segregate Eisenhower sent in the Army. I really don't see Trump sending in troops to stop fascists when local police aren't doing anything about them.
My love of irony demands any effort you make in that results in terrible outcome for you and more fascist power than before.
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Old 13th August 2017, 07:09 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
White Nationalists don't hate.
This is a steaming load of deplorable bull crap.

First off, you're not a mind reader. You don't know what these people feel. But more importantly, it's painfully obvious that "white nationalism" is the new face of the worst sort of nazi-sympathetic racism, and your defense of this bare naked scum speaks volumes.
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Old 13th August 2017, 07:12 AM   #268
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Nevermind...

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Old 13th August 2017, 07:29 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
But more importantly, it's painfully obvious that "white nationalism" is the new face of the worst sort of nazi-sympathetic racism, and your defense of this bare naked scum speaks volumes.

It's kind of the "intelligent design" of racism.
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Old 13th August 2017, 07:30 AM   #270
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It's telling that Trump was more willing to call the CIA Nazis than he was to call actual Nazis Nazis.
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Old 13th August 2017, 07:43 AM   #271
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Even Drudge is calling out the white nationalists.

https://mobile.twitter.com/lrozen/st...53459465547776
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:03 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The problem with you're explanation is that you think that White Nationalists hate people who are different from them, that they target people for intrinsic qualities over which they don't have any control. White Nationalists don't hate. Maybe Nazis and KKK do but White Nationalists want White ethnostates. That's all. No hate required for that.
Uhhhh......yeah there is. Hate required, that is. Wanting a "white ethnostate" really does require hate.

Quote:
Condemning White Christians who want an ethnostate for their people is like condemning Zionists who want an ethnostate for their people.
Ok....now, this one gets a little bit more tricky, and could derail things, so I won't go too deep, but there are an awful lot of differences between Zionists and White Nationalists. Even so, I would go so far as to say there is a lot of hatred among Zionists, but that doesn't make it equivalent to White Nationalism, which has hatred as a starting point.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:04 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Both sides suck but depending on what side you're on your side sucks just a little bit less.


Rinse, repeat
A key difference is, one "side" consists of a miniscule group of a fringe zealots who have virtually no political support, and the other side is esconced in the white house.

A word of advice: Stick with the comment-free emoticons.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:07 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Your mom must have a huge basement if she fits you, your banner of revolution, a milk crate, folding chair and your laptop. Do you have a hard time not getting grease stains on the flag from the microwavable pizza rolls she brings you?
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:13 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
When the states refused to segregate Eisenhower sent in the Army. I really don't see Trump sending in troops to stop fascists when local police aren't doing anything about them.
You are too intelligent not to see the difference between STATES violating the Federal Constitution and PRIVATE individuals voicing an opinion that is at odds with the same.

Bad comparison is bad.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:13 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
That they do not is very telling, IMO.
They sometimes do. Couple of weeks ago there was some meeting by Trump supporters and some neo-nazi groups had decided to show up. So antifa also decided to show up to oppose the neo-nazi groups, and the meeting organizers squarely sided with antifa and the neo-nazis eventually walked off.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:19 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
White supremacists show up to an event looking for a fight... then proceed to play victim when violence happens.
Well, they are superior. We are destined always to admire their tactics and strategy - at least those activities which our mud-brains can handle.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:25 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
...
I'm not sure how totalitarianism is supposed to help extend people's lives when it clearly doesn't in actual totalitarian states. ...
It is not.
Caveman insinuated that capitalism is the root cause of 300,000 deaths annually (in the USA, I think). Here is the argument chain:

1. He cited that poverty causes additional deaths (which is certainly true),
2. ...AND that capitalism is the reason for poverty;
3. THEREFORE capitalism kills 300,000.

What he didn't consider is the fact that non-capitalism makes people even poorer, and is correlated with even lower life expectancy, such that non-capitalism would kill much more than those 300K if it were the social system in the USA.
In turn, Caveman ought to have argued that capitalism, for pulling the poor up to higher levels of wealth and education than any sort of non-capitalism, actually SAVES lots of lives.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:25 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
They sometimes do. Couple of weeks ago there was some meeting by Trump supporters and some neo-nazi groups had decided to show up. So antifa also decided to show up to oppose the neo-nazi groups, and the meeting organizers squarely sided with antifa and the neo-nazis eventually walked off.
An excellent sign. I hadn't heard of that, do you recall where and when? And did antifa leave after the neos cleared out?
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:26 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
They sometimes do. Couple of weeks ago there was some meeting by Trump supporters and some neo-nazi groups had decided to show up. So antifa also decided to show up to oppose the neo-nazi groups, and the meeting organizers squarely sided with antifa and the neo-nazis eventually walked off.
Citation?
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