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Old 26th August 2017, 08:27 AM   #361
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Real or Poe?
If you are not familiar with the representation issue, here is a cool piece on it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...representation
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:29 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If you are not familiar with the representation issue, here is a cool piece on it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...representation
It's funny, because you keep ignoring any evidence to the contrary. Basically, I think you'd just rather be of the opinion that ethnic people are not as depicted in art, which is a demonstrably false opinion to hold, but hey, don't let that get in the way of your preferred beliefs.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:29 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I can only pray that it's some form of weird satire.
Seriously. I've never depicted in art and media but Samual L Jackson has been in a zillion movies. I suppose I should feel a crushing weight on my self esteem over this but I just can't bring myself to be that pathetic.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:31 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If you are not familiar with the representation issue, here is a cool piece on it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...representation
Yes, I'm familiar with that non-issue. I was only wondering if your belief in that woo woo was genuine or a joke. It's hard to tell.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:34 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Who said they were? I've been responding to you on the basis that you seem to think ethnic cultures have not been depicted "as much" in art, which I have shown you to be demonstrably false. You keep avoiding any further debate on the issue, instead choosing to play a silly game of "I didn't say it like that, I said it like this." It's tiring and non-productive.



You came right out and said that you thought my notions of the 70's not being very PC were probably incorrect. Unless you've gone back and edited your post then I don't see why you're now pretending to not have said it.

Again, can you start addressing my argument that what you said is false, or is this conversation now over?
I cannot have a debate on if the quantity of depictions if you state multiple times that my position is "not depicted." If I don't address that now, you can default to that later and point to that I never disputed that characterization of my opinion

ETA: you just did it again in post 402.

That is in contrast to where I acknowledge my post on my position was a miscommunication on my part that has led to a different interpretation and that I have made repeated posts to try and clarify my position.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 26th August 2017 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:34 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Seriously. I've never depicted in art and media but Samual L Jackson has been in a zillion movies. I suppose I should feel a crushing weight on my self esteem over this but I just can't bring myself to be that pathetic.
I've been in less movies than Patrick Stewart, and he's gay. Samuel L. Jackson has been in more movies than me, and he's black. Jackie Chan has been in more movies than me, and he's Asian.

Tim Roth, though!
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:37 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I've been in less movies than Patrick Stewart, and he's gay. Samuel L. Jackson has been in more movies than me, and he's black. Jackie Chan has been in more movies than me, and he's Asian.

Tim Roth, though!
Patrick Stewart is not gay.

This is his wife

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_Ozell

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 26th August 2017 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:37 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Privilege doesn't mean you have easy in general, it just means you don't suffer from a specific issue.
This is exactly why the concept is so stupid. Everyone has "privilege". The poor unemployed single monther has the "privilege" of not suffering from the issue of having to be at work on time. I wish I had some of that "privilege".
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:38 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I cannot have a debate on if the quantity of depictions if you state multiple times that my position is "not depicted." If I don't address that now, you can default to that later and point to that I never disputed that characterization of my opinion

That is in contrast to where I acknowledge my post on my position was a miscommunication on my part that has led to a different interpretation and that I have made repeated posts to try and clarify my position.
The problem is that you claimed that white privilege meant that "people of my colour" are depicted in art more than people of ethnic origin. Why on earth some guy from Rome having a statue of himself is supposed to make me, a bloke from Liverpool, feel privileged, is anyone's guess.

The other problem is that I clearly explained to you that art will depict whatever the artist chooses to depict. A writer will tell a story that he wants to tell. A town that doesn't have an ethnic community is not going to be as likely to have art that depicts ethnicity, right?

Now, there are sooooo many cities on this globe that have a vast plethora of ethnic art and literature. To deny it is weird.

My entire city is a testament to our history of being part of a wider culture. I'd suggest leaving your town and venturing into the outside world, and not believing everything you read on random websites.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:41 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Patrick Stewart is not gay.

This is his wife

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_Ozell
Ian McKellen, then, lol. Patrick is so well known in the gay community and the wider community for his support of gay rights that you can see why I thought he was gay. There's also a fair few pictures of him kissing men!

If this was you, you'd just deny you ever said it, lol.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:44 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
The problem is that you claimed that white privilege meant that "people of my colour" are depicted in art more than people of ethnic origin. Why on earth some guy from Rome having a statue of himself is supposed to make me, a bloke from Liverpool, feel privileged, is anyone's guess.

The other problem is that I clearly explained to you that art will depict whatever the artist chooses to depict. A writer will tell a story that he wants to tell. A town that doesn't have an ethnic community is not going to be as likely to have art that depicts ethnicity, right?

Now, there are sooooo many cities on this globe that have a vast plethora of ethnic art and literature. To deny it is weird.

My entire city is a testament to our history of being part of a wider culture. I'd suggest leaving your town and venturing into the outside world, and not believing everything you read on random websites.
If that is the problem then why are you repeatedly misrepresenting one of my positions and not acknowledging an effort to correct something I acknowledge as a misstatement?
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:44 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
This is exactly why the concept is so stupid. Everyone has "privilege". The poor unemployed single monther has the "privilege" of not suffering from the issue of having to be at work on time. I wish I had some of that "privilege".
Exactly. The idea of privilege is so unique from person to person that it's silly to act like it's some definite blanket that you can drape over a certain group of people.

There are black guys whom I work with that wouldn't know a ghetto from a grotto. In terms of getting trouble, I've likely had as much grief as some of them for being a so-called "thief from Liverpool," than they have for being black.

There are black men who work in excellent jobs, and live in wealthy neighbourhoods, yet I'm supposed to feel privileged because I'm an accepted white man?

Reality is totally different.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:45 AM   #373
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Question

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
The problem is that you claimed that white privilege meant that "people of my colour" are depicted in art more than people of ethnic origin. Why on earth some guy from Rome having a statue of himself is supposed to make me, a bloke from Liverpool, feel privileged, is anyone's guess.

The other problem is that I clearly explained to you that art will depict whatever the artist chooses to depict. A writer will tell a story that he wants to tell. A town that doesn't have an ethnic community is not going to be as likely to have art that depicts ethnicity, right?

Now, there are sooooo many cities on this globe that have a vast plethora of ethnic art and literature. To deny it is weird.

My entire city is a testament to our history of being part of a wider culture. I'd suggest leaving your town and venturing into the outside world, and not believing everything you read on random websites.
The underlying assumptions of the "minorities are not depicted in art and are therefor subject to sights to their self esteem" line of thinking are just weird.

It's as if white people are the only group who make art and they have a responsibility to depict every other culture and race on the planet.
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Last edited by Tony; 26th August 2017 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:46 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
They blocked the other entrances to the park while the permit holding Nazis were supposed to go in the single entrance (north one if I remember correctly), but decided to try to go in all of them.
I found one article in the Daily Caller that referenced this.

It sees the police had a plan to funnel the Nazis through a rear entrance on the North side, and the police set up so they could do that. For reasons unclear, that didn't happen. The initial violent confrontations seems to be centered mostly on the entrances being blocked by counter-protesters, with alt-right pushing past them. Why the alt-righters didn't go to the back of the park where they could enter unmolested is unclear. If I see any other information about this, I'll pass it along.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:47 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If that is the problem then why are you repeatedly misrepresenting one of my positions and not acknowledging an effort to correct something I acknowledge as a misstatement?
Are you serious?

I spent a good while typing posts out, some complete with links, to show you why you were mistaken in your belief, and each time you ignored the content and changed the context. You made no effort to discuss my argument, as I had yours, and you're now coming out with this?

At this point, you can kindly stop this game.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:50 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
The underlying assumptions of the "minorities are not depicted in art and are therefor subject to sights to their self esteem" line of thinking are just weird.

I guess white people are the only group who make art and they have a responsibility to depict every other culture and race on the planet.
That's part of the point I was making. Art is only created by the people who create it. It'd be daft to imagine a man from a small, secluded town from the 1600's to be painting pictures of Africans.

You have to look at each individual piece of art and ask yourself where it was made, by whom, what was it reflecting? etc.

Art in communities with strong and diverse cultural links will reflect that.

This is all ignoring the fact that each culture makes their own art, hence why we even have culture in the first place...

It's such a strange argument and one that I have to assume it some weird Andy Kaufman-style prank.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:59 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
The underlying assumptions of the "minorities are not depicted in art and are therefor subject to sights to their self esteem" line of thinking are just weird.

It's as if white people are the only group who make art and they have a responsibility to depict every other culture and race on the planet.
When you talk about mass culture, movies, television, books, the means of producing these things in the western world have overwhelmingly been controlled by white people for most of the history of those media.

That's not really controversial, that's history.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:02 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
When you talk about mass culture, movies, television, books, the means of producing these things in the western world have overwhelmingly been controlled by white people for most of the history of those media.

That's not really controversial, that's history.
The argument wasn't mass-media. Most (not all) mass-media is a western product, anyway, so it'd be daft to not assume that it'd be mainly white in origin and product.

The argument being made was that ethnic groups aren't as depicted in art as white people, which is, of course, bollocks.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:03 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
When you talk about mass culture, movies, television, books, the means of producing these things in the western world have overwhelmingly been controlled by white people for most of the history of those media.

That's not really controversial, that's history.
Yes. It is history. That's exactly why it's a non issue.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:17 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Are you serious?

I spent a good while typing posts out, some complete with links, to show you why you were mistaken in your belief, and each time you ignored the content and changed the context. You made no effort to discuss my argument, as I had yours, and you're now coming out with this?

At this point, you can kindly stop this game.
You have repeatedly misstated my belief. I can't argue a point to challenge a belief I do not have.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:18 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
The argument wasn't mass-media. Most (not all) mass-media is a western product, anyway, so it'd be daft to not assume that it'd be mainly white in origin and product.

The argument being made was that ethnic groups aren't as depicted in art as white people, which is, of course, bollocks.
Of course I included mass media. I said media.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:21 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post

There are black men who work in excellent jobs, and live in wealthy neighbourhoods, yet I'm supposed to feel privileged because I'm an accepted white man?

Reality is totally different.
I think the point is you have privilege whether you feel it or not.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:25 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You have repeatedly misstated my belief. I can't argue a point to challenge a belief I do not have.
You basically came out with something which was false, I took the time to explain how it was false, you ignored it all and continued making odd arguments, claiming you meant it in another way, despite having literally stated your point several times before deciding to change it around, and you're now still beating a long-dead horse regarding an disingenuous statement regarding ethnic people not being depicted in art or media as much as white people, which has been explained to you tenfold. You just bored today, or something?
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:26 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Of course I included mass media. I said media.
Which has been explained to you rather logically, only for you to ignore it. You cannot be helped.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:27 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
You basically came out with something which was false, I took the time to explain how it was false, you ignored it all and continued making odd arguments, claiming you meant it in another way, despite having literally stated your point several times before deciding to change it around, and you're now still beating a long-dead horse regarding an disingenuous statement regarding ethnic people not being depicted in art or media as much as white people, which has been explained to you tenfold. You just bored today, or something?
Are you talking about the 70s thing? I made one statement and have tried repeatedly to clarify that position.

I'm glad when I see you say as much which is closer to my position. Let's see if it will actually hold or you will default to no depiction again.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:29 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think the point is you have privilege whether you feel it or not.
I think the reality of the situation is that this idea of "privilege" has been demonstrably rubbished several times and you've basically resorted to repeating the false claim over and over. Typical, but unsurprising. Like I said, maybe it's time to log-off and venture out into the world to see all of the "lack of depictions of ethnic people in art".
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:30 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Are you talking about the 70s thing? I made one statement and have tried repeatedly to clarify that position.

I'm glad when I see you say as much which is closer to my position. Let's see if it will actually hold or you will default to no depiction again.
No, I'm talking about your odd belief that ethnic people haven't been depicted as much as white people. You've offered no examples, have been given plenty, and continue to troll.

I have clarified several times now that I was responding to your statement of "not as much," I have repeatedly told you this, and again, you continue to spin the same yarn. <snip>


Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rules 0/12
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:31 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Which has been explained to you rather logically, only for you to ignore it. You cannot be helped.
Whatever you think you explained is not relevant to your misrepresentation of my position in post 418.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:33 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I have clarified several times now that I was responding to your statement of "not as much," I have repeatedly told you this, and again, you continue to spin the same yarn.
While also continuing to counter your clarifications as recently as post 402.

Last edited by Loss Leader; 29th August 2017 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:34 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Whatever you think you explained is not relevant to your misrepresentation of my position in post 418.
Funny to hear you talking about misinterpretation, lol.

It is quite clear to anyone with two working eyeballs that I have covered both media and art and literature.

You're now once again avoiding the argument and are arguing about pedantic details which you continue to change as you see fit in order to make it seem like your argument has not been shown to be false. Get a life.
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Old 26th August 2017, 09:36 AM   #391
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
While also continuing to counter your clarifications as recently as post 402.
Do yourself a favour and go back and actually read my comments. You'll see that I was responding to your argument, what you fail to understand is that it applies to "not depicted at all" and "not depicted as much," ignoring the fact that I have repeatedly clarified this, you seem to just be trolling for the sake of it. You're not fooling anyone now, Bob the Coward.
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Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 26th August 2017, 10:10 AM   #392
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Do yourself a favour and go back and actually read my comments. You'll see that I was responding to your argument, what you fail to understand is that it applies to "not depicted at all" and "not depicted as much," ignoring the fact that I have repeatedly clarified this, you seem to just be trolling for the sake of it. You're not fooling anyone now, Bob the Coward.
It doesn't matter fi your evidence applies to both. The fact you clarify and then misstate again is objectionable.
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Old 26th August 2017, 10:13 AM   #393
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It doesn't matter fi your evidence applies to both. The fact you clarify and then misstate again is objectionable.
1) I clarified from the beginning that I was going with your "not as much" argument.

2) I have told you this more than 5 times.

3) The argument would apply to both situations, regardless.

4) I have asked you to read through the comments and see for yourself, you haven't.

5) I have continued to tell you that you should address my argument for your odd belief, you refrain from doing it time and again, and I'm sure you're aware that the point of these threads is to address the argument, which I have done, and you have not, ergo: you are now trolling.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 26th August 2017, 10:15 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
1) I clarified from the beginning that I was going with your "not as much" argument.

2) I have told you this more than 5 times.

3) The argument would apply to both situations, regardless.

4) I have asked you to read through the comments and see for yourself, you haven't.

5) I have continued to tell you that you should address my argument for your odd belief, you refrain from doing it time and again, and I'm sure you're aware that the point of these threads is to address the argument, which I have done, and you have not, ergo: you are now trolling.
You have also made the misstatement more than once between your clarifications. I have not argued that you haven't clarified.
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Old 26th August 2017, 10:22 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You have also made the misstatement more than once between your clarifications. I have not argued that you haven't clarified.
No, what has happened, and it's happened before, is that you don't seem to read what I'm saying at all. It was clarified for you many many posts ago, yet you chose to avoid it and keep spinning the same transparent yarn.

You've basically now hijacked the thread and turned it into a debate about clarifications, and continue to avoid addressing my rebuttal to your strange and false statement in your OP.

It's very odd behaviour.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 26th August 2017, 10:36 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Since the discriminating criterion between the two groups isn't race, it's not racist. That's literally not racist.
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The negative opinion is based on the fact that he doesn't know them. After all he's fine with the ones he knows despite their ethnicity.

Unless this hypothetical person knows more black people than they don't know, their default opinion of black people is "I don't like them". The fact that they like the handful of black people they do know only strengthens the argument that this person's opinion is racist in nature, for two reasons:

1) This person continues to cling to a default dislike of every other black person when all of the black people this person knows are seen as decent people. There's no consideration that some of the black people this person doesn't know might also be decent people.

2) The black people this person knows are obviously viewed as exceptions.
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Old 26th August 2017, 10:54 AM   #397
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
No, what has happened, and it's happened before, is that you don't seem to read what I'm saying at all. It was clarified for you many many posts ago, yet you chose to avoid it and keep spinning the same transparent yarn.

You've basically now hijacked the thread and turned it into a debate about clarifications, and continue to avoid addressing my rebuttal to your strange and false statement in your OP.

It's very odd behaviour.
I will need a PC to put together the posts of your backtracks on the no vs some discussion. Until then we will move on to the other point.

We never defined few and far between. I don't dispute the quantity you say is there. But there is no criteria to test the quantity against.
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Old 26th August 2017, 11:03 AM   #398
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I will need a PC to put together the posts of your backtracks on the no vs some discussion. Until then we will move on to the other point.

We never defined few and far between. I don't dispute the quantity you say is there. But there is no criteria to test the quantity against.
I have not backtracked on anything, whereas you actually have, and I mentioned some of them in my various postings.

You obviously have nothing to offer to this argument anymore, Bob. You've repeatedly avoided an actual debate on your odd belief, and have repeatedly made blatant lies up out of thin air to make out like you didn't say something which you're on record as saying. Have a great day, mate.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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Old 26th August 2017, 11:06 AM   #399
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I have not backtracked on anything, whereas you actually have, and I mentioned some of them in my various postings.

You obviously have nothing to offer to this argument anymore, Bob. You've repeatedly avoided an actual debate on your odd belief, and have repeatedly made blatant lies up out of thin air to make out like you didn't say something which you're on record as saying. Have a great day, mate.
It is not a lie to acknowledge a statement you made is not being interpreted as you intended and make repeated statements to try and clarify.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 26th August 2017 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 26th August 2017, 11:14 AM   #400
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is not a lie to acknowledge a statement you made is not being interpreted as you intended and make repeated statements to try and clarify.
I've gone over our entire debate, Bob, and I can plainly see many many posts of mine in which I have clarified that I was discussing the argument on your "not as much a white person" claim, now ignoring the fact that either "not at all" and "not as much" are covered by the same argument, you have now spent the last hour+ posting the same drivel and avoiding any type of rebuttal to my posts. Seek help, Bob.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
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