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Old 25th August 2017, 10:58 AM   #241
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You know, sometimes I get the impression that "privilege" has nothing to do with circumstances, only with gender and skin colour; all things you can't control. Gee, that idea almost sounds... racist.
Tell me about it, lol.

I wish I had something to show for all of this privilege that I've had over the years.
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Old 25th August 2017, 10:59 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's a distinction without a difference when talking about the hate we're discussing in this thread.

We may safely assume that everyone waving a confederate flag desires total annihilation of all PoC?
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Old 25th August 2017, 11:02 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
There really isn't any pleasant coexisting with people who hate you for what you are. And that's not the fault of the victims of hate.
I find this hard to believe and I think you do as well.

Do you extend this courtesy to everyone? Should the religious right pleasantly coexist with people who hate them? I think they should.
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Old 25th August 2017, 11:03 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You know, sometimes I get the impression that "privilege" has nothing to do with circumstances, only with gender and skin colour; all things you can't control. Gee, that idea almost sounds... racist.
I understand the concept as it's put forth. Guess the issue would be the weight it is given.
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Old 25th August 2017, 11:14 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Everything supposedly provides indirect support for white supremacists, which I find hilariously pathetic, tbh. I got called a racist because I gave legit reasons for why AntiFa members find themselves getting arrested at protests. We live in delicate times.



All I'm saying is that fighting in the streets and endangering your own and other people's lives is not the way to go, regardless of who you are, what country you're from, or what you believe in. What does fighting in the streets honestly achieve? It generally just makes matters worse and nothing gets resolved. I'm not for or against anyone's right to protest, I could care less whether the blacks, gays or Nazi's want to march, as long as they do it sensibly and peacefully. Nobody is telling anyone to "know their place," certainly not me.

Being that it is my job to work at such rallies providing security, I could honestly care less who believes in what, or why. My concern is directed towards everyone doing their thing in a calm and controlled manner. If someone is causing trouble, I don't give a toss whether they're Nazi's, Black Panthers, AntiFa, or the cast of the Jersey Boys musical.
Google World Service Witness Notting Hill Race Riot and listen to the 9 minute programme.

The teddy boys ran amok for a week until Jamaicans from Brixton came to fight then. That stopped the violence. In many respects it's a better example tgan the battle of Cable Street
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Old 25th August 2017, 11:17 AM   #246
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Google World Service Witness Notting Hill Race Riot and listen to the 9 minute programme.

The teddy boys ran amok for a week until Jamaicans from Brixton came to fight then. That stopped the violence. In many respects it's a better example tgan the battle of Cable Street
It was certainly a pretty notable riot that spawned the song "White Riot" by the Clash, and highlighted a lot of truths about the climate of the period, much like the Toxteth riots here in Liverpool in the 80's, which a lot of people here still remember. My family lived in the middle of it all.
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Old 25th August 2017, 11:38 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You guys really don't go to the theater much, do you?
Bad theater? No, not much.
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Old 25th August 2017, 11:42 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
How about an overweight white woman with a southern drawl starring in a film as Micheal Jackson?
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


(I think the skin tone and the gender are the least of your problems in this scenario).
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Old 25th August 2017, 11:43 AM   #249
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A white woman playing Michael Jackson actually isn't as far-fetched as it sounds!
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Old 25th August 2017, 11:54 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


(I think the skin tone and the gender are the least of your problems in this scenario).
I'm at work now, but I definitely want to click on that link!
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Old 25th August 2017, 11:59 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
The irony of a suburban American from a middle-class family telling a Scouser about privilege is nothing short of hilarious and inept, lol.

So you're claiming to be psychic now? I'd suggest you re-evaluate your psychic powers, since they're clearly not working for you.

Privilege is saying that because some white folks have it hard, the systematic, institutionalized oppression and murder of people of colour and sexual minorities is not a matter for concern, and that their struggles to defend themselves are not valid unless they do so entirely passively.

Quote:
My priority is in making a good life for my family.

And screw anyone else. Especially if they offend your delicate sensibilities by using force to defend themselves.

"As long as one of us is not free, none of us are free."
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:03 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
So you're claiming to be psychic now? I'd suggest you re-evaluate your psychic powers, since they're clearly not working for you.

Privilege is saying that because some white folks have it hard, the systematic, institutionalized oppression and murder of people of colour and sexual minorities is not a matter for concern, and that their struggles to defend themselves are not valid unless they do so entirely passively.
I'm doing what you're doing: pulling wild presumptions out of your behind. You claim that I'm used to living in a safe and privileged environment, which is frankly silly, and displays a total lack of knowledge about me.

To tell me that I'm somehow privileged in various non-existent ways is about as nonsensical as telling me that I'm part of the problem because I don't go out and march for every single rally being held.




Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And screw anyone else. Especially if they offend your delicate sensibilities by using force to defend themselves.

"As long as one of us is not free, none of us are free."
I've never said this, so I've no idea why you're saying it. I've gone over my contributions to my community in this thread, you've decided to ignore them because it doesn't gel with your preconceived image of me as a bigot.
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:06 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Just so we're clear, here: are you saying that it's not only ok but imperative that we go out and punch the morally reprehensible?
Having not read all of luchog's argument I can't speak for them, but my takeaway from that entire line of reasoning is that the opposition to the Nazi/white supremacists/ alt right resorting to violence is motivated by many factors that make it thus far nowhere NEAR the moral or ethical equivalency of the Nazi/alt-right violence. Many of the suggestions of 'why don't you just do this' are for things where 'this' is not practical in the least for them and/or they already have been to little/no effect. Further, that people who use the line of reasoning 'it works for me/I'd never succumb to these factors' are being blinded by their position of privileged in that regard. It is like the people telling poor people to just go to college and work hard, when they have never had to actually worry about money while doing so and had family money to fall back on. It just isn't the same situation.

Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I understand the concept as it's put forth. Guess the issue would be the weight it is given.
Oh the concept is perfectly fine, it's the usage that gets it wrong a lot. This is the same as with terms like 'fake news' and 'mansplaining'. They're perfectly fine concepts with limited applications that describe things very well. Until some straw man it, while others insist it's never used that way. Then some others actually start using in that way, while the second group still insists it isn't being used that way, and finally the first group is now satisfied that it only is ever and has ever been used that way.

Overuse and misuse ruins many a perfectly fine and descriptive term, leaving us with the truly unfair and difficult task of judging any given use on it's specific merits and context. Having to actually read and understand what the other person is saying rather than handwave? I won't hear of it!
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:07 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Yes, because we respect, appreciate and celebrate their culture, hence why we still have these old communities and why we have historic districts in which they live, that are visited by tourists from around the globe on a daily basis. Are you assuming ill treatment for ethnic communities now?

That's hilarious. You don't personally see it, therefore you don't believe it exists. That's pretty much the definition of privilege. Why don't you go and talk to some of those people and ask them about the kind of racism they deal with on a daily basis?

Quote:
I'm saying that it's funny that they're only opposed to fascism and ignorance when the culprits are in positions of power or supported by those in positions of power.

Fixed that for you.

Quote:
Are you kidding? I've been racially abused many times, and I've been given plenty of abuse for being Scouse. My family came to England as "Irish dogs," and weren't given a pot to piss into. If you recall, "my people" were scorned by many, when lies were made up about us robbing the dead, and urinating on police officers, and effectively causing a crush that killed 96 of us. You know when that was thrown out? How long did that continue before being rubbished? Give your white privilege nonsense a rest.

Yeah, the Irish were treated like ****. For centuries. You want to take a guess at what stopped that and got them better treatment? Little hint, it wasn't sitting on the corner with signs and being good, passive little micks. As I recall from my reading of history, there was a great deal of inconvenient protesting and even fighting in the streets before they got a voice and reversed a lot of the oppression they suffered under.

Funny how so many of them don't seem to care much when other people of darker skin tones are suffering similarly or worse. You think they'd be more sympathetic, but as I recall, Irish culture never had much more use for "darkies" than the British did.

(About a quarter of my ancestors were green-county Irish by the way, so you know where you can stuff that.)
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:09 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
the systematic, institutionalized oppression and murder of people of colour and sexual minorities
The what? In the West? Don't you think you're exaggerating a bit?
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:14 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
To tell me that I'm somehow privileged in various non-existent ways is about as nonsensical as telling me that I'm part of the problem because I don't go out and march for every single rally being held.

You know, hypocrisy doesn't become you. If you're going to castigate someone for an imaginary wrong, you should make sure you're not committing that very wrong yourself.

Quote:
I've never said this, so I've no idea why you're saying it.

Because everything you're saying strongly implies this. Every time you invalidate peoples' attempts to defend themselves from being oppressed and murdered if they're not completely passive says this. The moment you deride the use of force to oppose systematic, institutionalized oppression, despite the fact that you yourself have benefited from other people doing exactly that, you say this. Every time you say that your sense of security is more important than their lives and rights, you say this.

As I've said before, if you can't go out and fight, fine, not everyone can. But you don't get to hide behind your computer screen and tell me that no one else has the right to fight for their own lives because it upsets your sense of security, and still insist that you hold the moral high ground.
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:16 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That's hilarious. You don't personally see it, therefore you don't believe it exists. That's pretty much the definition of privilege. Why don't you go and talk to some of those people and ask them about the kind of racism they deal with on a daily basis?
I quite literally said, at least a dozen times, that racism exists everywhere, lol. You're doing that thing again where you ignore whole paragraphs and cherry-pick things that you feel contain negative context, going so far as to take my words out of context to present them as negative. It's silly and quite desperate.




Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Fixed that for you.
You didn't address it, you moved the goal-posts.




Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Yeah, the Irish were treated like ****. For centuries. You want to take a guess at what stopped that and got them better treatment? Little hint, it wasn't sitting on the corner with signs and being good, passive little micks. As I recall from my reading of history, there was a great deal of inconvenient protesting and even fighting in the streets before they got a voice and reversed a lot of the oppression they suffered under.

Funny how so many of them don't seem to care much when other people of darker skin tones are suffering similarly or worse. You think they'd be more sympathetic, but as I recall, Irish culture never had much more use for "darkies" than the British did.

(About a quarter of my ancestors were green-county Irish by the way, so you know where you can stuff that.)
I'm not sure how you can sit there and make such a weirdly baseless and ignorant comment as this:
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Funny how so many of them don't seem to care much when other people of darker skin tones are suffering similarly or worse. You think they'd be more sympathetic, but as I recall, Irish culture never had much more use for "darkies" than the British did.
Where are you getting the idea that the Irish don't care about black people or bigotry? lol. You're so far down the rabbit-hole of social justice that you're making completely bigoted remarks based on nothing at all.

There are plenty of black Irish here in Liverpool, mate.

Yeah, a quarter of your ancestors, whereas my entire immediate family are born of Irish immigrants and felt the harsh reality of bigotry when they came here.
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:19 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Having not read all of luchog's argument I can't speak for them, but my takeaway from that entire line of reasoning is that the opposition to the Nazi/white supremacists/ alt right resorting to violence is motivated by many factors that make it thus far nowhere NEAR the moral or ethical equivalency of the Nazi/alt-right violence. Many of the suggestions of 'why don't you just do this' are for things where 'this' is not practical in the least for them and/or they already have been to little/no effect. Further, that people who use the line of reasoning 'it works for me/I'd never succumb to these factors' are being blinded by their position of privileged in that regard. It is like the people telling poor people to just go to college and work hard, when they have never had to actually worry about money while doing so and had family money to fall back on. It just isn't the same situation.

I don't see it that way at all. Let me try to illustrate.

If communists were to take power in America, they would take away everything I've worked for. They would seize my property. Moreover, communism requires dictatorship, so they would take away our rights. The next time I see a rally where the communists, or their fellow travelers in IWW or Sparticist League or whoever it is they are, are in attendance, it is imperative that I go down and voice my opposition. And because I know that these communists often resort to violence, I must take my baseball bat to protect myself.

Right?

No. Not at all. But why not? Maybe it's because I need to understand their viewpoint better? No, that's not it. Maybe it's because I have lied about the communists and they don't actually seize property or form dictatorships? No, the communists have a pretty strong track record on that point. It's pretty accurate.

The reason I shouldn't take my baseball bat to their rally is because the communists should not be taken seriously. There are so few of them that they are of no real significance, and the ones that do exist in America are laughable examples of humanity that are only good for providing subjects for ridicule.

And even though they think Bernie Sanders is the best candidate that has come along in decades, he is not actually a communist, nor is he even an ally of communists.

The communists don't matter. Neither do the white supremacists. They just aren't worth the attention.

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Old 25th August 2017, 12:22 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You know, hypocrisy doesn't become you. If you're going to castigate someone for an imaginary wrong, you should make sure you're not committing that very wrong yourself.
You'd know all about imaginary wrongs, seeing as you went off on a weird tirade about how the Irish don't care about black rights, or some other such nonsense that you plucked out of the ether.




Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Because everything you're saying strongly implies this. Every time you invalidate peoples' attempts to defend themselves from being oppressed and murdered if they're not completely passive says this. The moment you deride the use of force to oppose systematic, institutionalized oppression, despite the fact that you yourself have benefited from other people doing exactly that, you say this. Every time you say that your sense of security is more important than their lives and rights, you say this.

As I've said before, if you can't go out and fight, fine, not everyone can. But you don't get to hide behind your computer screen and tell me that no one else has the right to fight for their own lives because it upsets your sense of security, and still insist that you hold the moral high ground.
No, the problem is that I've explained my position in detail, and you've ignored it and have highlighted parts that you feel are negative.

You, like UKse, are responding to things you think I'm saying, rather than what I'm actually saying. I have never once claimed I was against anyone's rights, or that they don't matter, and anyone is welcome to come and see in person what I personally do for my community, both black and white, old and young.

I've never said anyone isn't in a position to defend themselves, I actually bloody teach self-defense to many people, lol. My point, as I've reiterated dozens of times, is that fighting in the streets is pointless, and I clearly work in a position that doesn't enable me to favour people who do battle in the streets, hence my point regarding me preferring everyone to not create bloody havoc. Once again, you do not read what I say. I went to great detail in telling you about my position, and you replied to one paragraph, ignoring the rest, and then making claims which had been rubbished already in the parts of my post that you overlooked. How can I take you or your argument seriously when you make snide claims and cherry-pick posts?
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:24 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't see it that way at all. Let me try to illustrate.

If communists were to take power in America, they would take away everything I've worked for. They would seize my property. Moreover, communism requires dictatorship, so they would take away our rights. The next time I see a rally where the communists, or their fellow travelers in IWW or Sparticist League or whoever it is they are, are in attendance, it is imperative that I go down and voice my opposition. And because I know that these communists often resort to violence, I must take my baseball bat to protect myself.

Right?

No. Not at all. But why not? Maybe it's because I need to understand their viewpoint better? No, that's not it. Maybe it's because I have lied about the communists and they don't actually seize property or form dictatorships? No, the communists have a pretty strong track record on that point. It's pretty accurate.

The reason I shouldn't take my baseball bat to their rally is because the communists should not be taken seriously. There are so few of them that they are of no real significance, and the ones that are exist are laughable examples of humanity that are only good for providing subjects for ridicule.

And even though they think Bernie Sanders is the best candidate that has come along in decades, he is not actually a communist, nor is he even an ally of communists.

The communists don't matter. Neither do the white supremacists. They just aren't worth the attention.

This means that you believe the violence that those protesting the Nazis/alt-right is the moral/ethical equivalent of that coming from the Nazis, or you have missed my key point.

In your example, if the communists showed up with torches and AK-47s and the like, and started attacking people, even killing one and nearly killing another (and injuring 19 more) would your baseball bat carrying be the moral/ethical equivalent? On top of this, if you were in a group targeted by the commies for violence, would it still be the same?


EDIT: And the Nazis/KKK think they have more support now that people are going to bat for them, and the president has drawn equivalencies. Their support is higher than I predicted, and perhaps higher than you want to believe too.
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:35 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't see it that way at all. Let me try to illustrate.

If communists were to take power in America, they would take away everything I've worked for. They would seize my property. Moreover, communism requires dictatorship, so they would take away our rights. The next time I see a rally where the communists, or their fellow travelers in IWW or Sparticist League or whoever it is they are, are in attendance, it is imperative that I go down and voice my opposition. And because I know that these communists often resort to violence, I must take my baseball bat to protect myself.

Right?

No. Not at all. But why not? Maybe it's because I need to understand their viewpoint better? No, that's not it. Maybe it's because I have lied about the communists and they don't actually seize property or form dictatorships? No, the communists have a pretty strong track record on that point. It's pretty accurate.

The reason I shouldn't take my baseball bat to their rally is because the communists should not be taken seriously. There are so few of them that they are of no real significance, and the ones that do exist in America are laughable examples of humanity that are only good for providing subjects for ridicule.

And even though they think Bernie Sanders is the best candidate that has come along in decades, he is not actually a communist, nor is he even an ally of communists.

The communists don't matter. Neither do the white supremacists. They just aren't worth the attention.
How about the inhabitants of Charlottesville? The congregation of the synagogue who were intimidated or the multifaith groups that say they were attacked by the Nazis until Antifa interposed themselves between them and the Nazis?
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:36 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I'm at work now, but I definitely want to click on that link!
It is safe for work, but if you can't hold the suspense, click the spoiler.
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:39 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
We may safely assume that everyone waving a confederate flag desires total annihilation of all PoC?
If they are taking part in a rally and are waving that flag alongside others waving Nazi flags, we can at least be sure that they are in favour of white supremacy.
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:53 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
How about the inhabitants of Charlottesville? The congregation of the synagogue who were intimidated or the multifaith groups that say they were attacked by the Nazis until Antifa interposed themselves between them and the Nazis?
Could you share a link or two about this? I keep hearing this position that Antifa, being the angels that they are, did nothing wrong until the evil fascists began their unprovoked attack in which case they came to the defense of minorities, women, children, the disabled and those of every walk of life longing to be free.

When I look at other news reports providing eye witness accounts from multiple people in attendance, it was a mix of violence from both sides, with neither being a shinning light of behavior one should praise.
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:55 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
When I look at other news reports providing eye witness accounts from multiple people in attendance, it was a mix of violence from both sides, with neither being a shinning light of behavior one should praise.
Didn't a BLM member get accidentally attacked by an AntiFa or something like that? lol.

Like you say, both sides are generally as bad as each other in terms of violence.
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Old 25th August 2017, 01:05 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
If they are taking part in a rally and are waving that flag alongside others waving Nazi flags, we can at least be sure that they are in favour of white supremacy.
Oh yeah, it's a safe bet that everyone at the rally was in favour of memorializing and/or extending white supremacy.
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Old 25th August 2017, 01:18 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The what? In the West? Don't you think you're exaggerating a bit?

I desperately wish I was. Did you miss the news on Charlottesville? It's in all the papers and news blogs. Or the brouha over Ferguson?

Oh, and this: https://medium.com/@ShaunKing/soul-s...k-7454a5a43924

This is hardly unique, and despite what the films tell you, this is not something that used to happen in the past, or in some small-town backwater. This is happening, albeit not necessarily on this scale, in cities of all sizes all over the US, including my own. I live in what is ostensibly one of the most liberal cities in the US, but police here can beat and murder minorities with impunity, and cannot be prosecuted for it if they can claim they were "scared". Police who shoot unarmed children walk away without even slap on the wrist, because they law will not allow them to be prosecuted except under the most ridiculously narrow circumstances, and the politicians active opposed changing the law.

We have a president in office who referred to a gathering of white supremacists -- nazis and KKK included -- as "fine people". White supremacists who came prepared to do violence, not against antifa, but against passive, peaceful protesters, which they did, knocking them down with their shields, kicking them, and beating them with batons. And the police did nothing until antifa showed up to oppose the fascists.

And for those assert that not everyone in those marches were white supremacist fascists, that some were just ordinary conservatives, I would counter that all of those "ordinary conservatives" had no problem marching alongside the nazis, had no problem stomping their way through peaceful protesters, had no problem associating with the KKK and other white supremacists. A few may have left early on, but the overwhelming majority stayed and did nothing to stop the fascists or disassociate themselves.

Go here: https://medium.com/@ShaunKing/soul-s...k-7454a5a43924

Look at the numbers for the United States. Over the last three years, the rate of murders of transpeople has growing rapidly, over double what it was before that. 80-90% of these are people of colour.

There are huge chunks of this nation that are little better than third-world hell holes if you're not white and straight.
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Old 25th August 2017, 01:21 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I quite literally said, at least a dozen times, that racism exists everywhere, lol.

And yet, you also said that people who fight it are as bad as the racists.
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Old 25th August 2017, 01:24 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And yet, you also said that people who fight it are as bad as the racists.
Errr, can you quote me on that? What I literally said was that people fighting in the streets are no better or worse than each other.

I have never once stated that the counter-protesters are "as bad as the racists," in any way, besides the violence.

You seem unable to stick to the truth, why is that?

Also, can you explain this ironically bigoted post?

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Funny how so many of them don't seem to care much when other people of darker skin tones are suffering similarly or worse. You think they'd be more sympathetic, but as I recall, Irish culture never had much more use for "darkies" than the British did.
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Old 25th August 2017, 01:36 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
No, the problem is that I've explained my position in detail, and you've ignored it and have highlighted parts that you feel are negative.

You've engaged in a lot of evasion and privileged avoidance of the issue, yes.

Quote:
My point, as I've reiterated dozens of times, is that fighting in the streets is pointless,

And yet history points out time and again that doing so is far from pointless, and at times is the only effective option left when the institutions that should be protecting people instead become their oppressors. The entire history of the fight for freedom, for Civil Rights, Worker's Rights, Gay/Trans Rights in America, for example, demonstrates that very effectively. And not just America, but all over the world, including the UK, India, the Philipines, South Africa (most of Africa for that matter), and so on.

As an Irishman you should be familiar enough with your own history to understand that. Or were all those Irish rebels and trade unionists just as bad as the English oppressors?

Your problem is that you want to have your cake and eat it too, to benefit from the fights of the past, while opposing anyone who breaks the status quo to fight for their own rights in the here and now. No one who benefits from the status quo ever considers fighting legitimate.

And right now there are fascist white supremacists all over the US feeling empowered to terrorize minorities, not because they're being opposed, but because they are not being opposed, because mainstream white culture is telling anti-fascists that they're no better than the terrorists, by telling black people that by standing up for themselves, they're no longer legitimate, that mainstream white society would rather tolerate white fascist terrorizing people of colour than people of colour fighting back against white fascist terrorists.
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Old 25th August 2017, 01:39 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Look at the numbers for the United States. Over the last three years, the rate of murders of transpeople has growing rapidly, over double what it was before that. 80-90% of these are people of colour.
Sorry but did I miss a link to the source data on this? The FBI stats aren't all that helpful.
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Old 25th August 2017, 01:41 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Because everything you're saying strongly implies this.
That sounds suspiciously like you saying you made it up. He's clarified several times that this isn't what he means, and I don't see him meaning that, either.

Quote:
Every time you invalidate peoples' attempts to defend themselves from being oppressed and murdered if they're not completely passive says this.
"Invalidate". What a silly word. That's one of the major problems with SJWs: you can't even disagree with them. Doing so is tantamount to supporting Nazis. There is only one correct way to think: theirs. And if you disagree, well, you deserve to be punched in the face. In self-defense, of course.

Quote:
I desperately wish I was.
No you don't.

Quote:
Did you miss the news on Charlottesville?
How does any of that show a "systematic, institutionalized oppression and murder of people of colour and sexual minorities"?

What it shows is that a minority of asshats can become violent and kill people. How is it systematic? How is it institutionalised? How is it oppression?

In order to be systematic it has to be extremely common. In order to be institutionalised it needs to have a legal framework or facilitation from the state. In order to be oppression the group must be denied their rights somehow.
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Old 25th August 2017, 01:50 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You've engaged in a lot of evasion and privileged avoidance of the issue, yes.
Considering you're a guy who ignores huge swathes of my posts and cherry-picks small paragraphs, misinterpreting them for your own argument, I'd say your talk of evasion and avoidance is quite superbly ironic.

You've literally lied about mseveral times now, and it doesn't make you look very sincere in your argument.




Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And yet history points out time and again that doing so is far from pointless, and at times is the only effective option left when the institutions that should be protecting people instead become their oppressors. The entire history of the fight for freedom, for Civil Rights, Worker's Rights, Gay/Trans Rights in America, for example, demonstrates that very effectively. And not just America, but all over the world, including the UK, India, the Philipines, South Africa (most of Africa for that matter), and so on.
If violence solved these issues in any viable way, we'd not be here having this discussion, because there'd be no issues to discuss. I'm not saying that speaking out for your beliefs is pointless, I'm saying that throwing rocks in the street is pointless and gets us nowhere.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
As an Irishman you should be familiar enough with your own history to understand that. Or were all those Irish rebels and trade unionists just as bad as the English oppressors?
So, yet more baseless assumptions about an entire country of people? lol. And you expect anyone to take your discussions about bigotry seriously?

Educate yourself on the black communities in Ireland before embarrassing yourself:

You could start here: http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/grow...91695-Jan2015/

There are over 60,000 people in Ireland right now that self-identify as being black, and I’m reluctantly one of them. Not because I’m not proud of who I am. I really am proud of my heritage. Not because I don’t identify with ‘black people’. I’d like to think that I do. I just have never really been one to strictly identify with or categorise myself in such a way. My friends consist of the people around me, white, black, yellow, it really doesn’t matter, and I don’t think it should. Maturing into the person I am today happened in Ireland, and, more specifically, in Dublin. If anyone asks where I’m from, the first thought that comes to mind is ‘Ireland’.
Just like everywhere in the world, there are those ********* that are going to go out of their way to make everyone as miserable as they are, but I know for a fact that Dubliners in general, and probably more than anywhere else I’ve ever been, are an extremely welcoming bunch. I’ve never gotten less than full support from everyone I care to know and even strangers during tough times.


Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Your problem is that you want to have your cake and eat it too, to benefit from the fights of the past, while opposing anyone who breaks the status quo to fight for their own rights in the here and now. No one who benefits from the status quo ever considers fighting legitimate.

And right now there are fascist white supremacists all over the US feeling empowered to terrorize minorities, not because they're being opposed, but because they are not being opposed, because mainstream white culture is telling anti-fascists that they're no better than the terrorists, by telling black people that by standing up for themselves, they're no longer legitimate, that mainstream white society would rather tolerate white fascist terrorizing people of colour than people of colour fighting back against white fascist terrorists.
Here you go again with your weird presumptions about me. How do I want to benefit from the fights of the past, while opposing anyone who fights today? Can you honestly explain where you've pulled that bollocks from, mate? You seem to just randomly tag me with odd notions that I've not even touched upon.

Main-stream white culture isn't telling me anything. I'm telling you that I think anyone doing battle in the streets is an ass-hat, and I've formed that opinion whilst risking my own life being in the middle of such ass-hattery from London to Newcastle.

I'm not telling anyone to "not stand up for themselves," in fact, one of my jobs at our boxing club is to teach self-defense to the old and the young, from all walks of life, lol.

If I'm claiming that everyone involved in this prehistoric warfare is an ass-hat, that goes for the left AND the right, but you oddly only attribute it to the left, as though I'm opposing their rights to fight, when I'm doing no such thing.

It's this kind of disingenuous behaviour that makes me think some of you guys are trolling for your own cause.
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Old 25th August 2017, 01:51 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I have never once stated that the counter-protesters are "as bad as the racists," in any way, besides the violence.

So, you don't say they're as bad, except when you do. Got it.

Care to explain how people are expected to defend themselves against violence while not using violence?

Quote:
Also, can you explain this ironically bigoted post?

Really, are you claiming that the Irish have never discriminated against black people? Seriously? That's sad.

http://www.livinginireland.ie/newsle...n_in_workplace
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...port-1.2146079
https://www.ucc.ie/publications/heeu...y/chiwangu.htm
https://www.thoughtco.com/immigrants...merica-2834585
http://www.pitt.edu/~hirtle/uujec/white.html

The history of the Irish in America is the history of climbing the social hierarchy on the backs of African Americans.

Of course, it wasn't just black people. The Irish have never been particularly fond of Jews either. Limerick pogrom ring a bell?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-35999118.html


Do I need to go on?
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Old 25th August 2017, 01:53 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How does any of that show a "systematic, institutionalized oppression and murder of people of colour and sexual minorities"?.
I notice you completely ignored anything that actually provided evidence, including the article I linked to, twice.

Not surprising, given your general support for such things demonstrated in the past.
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Old 25th August 2017, 01:55 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
This means that you believe the violence that those protesting the Nazis/alt-right is the moral/ethical equivalent of that coming from the Nazis, or you have missed my key point.
Yes. I believe that the violence of both sides is morally equivalent.

Quote:
In your example, if the communists showed up with torches and AK-47s and the like, and started attacking people, even killing one and nearly killing another (and injuring 19 more) would your baseball bat carrying be the moral/ethical equivalent? On top of this, if you were in a group targeted by the commies for violence, would it still be the same?
Except that in Charlottesville, that didn't happen. The alt-right didn't show up heavily armed and start attacking people. That's not reality.

Did you read this article, link posted by someone earlier, by Bill Moyers:

http://billmoyers.com/story/white-su...ust-beginning/

Both sides had assault rifles. Both sides had clubs. As Moyers said in his first sentence, "violence was inevitable".

I saw a woman interviewed by Chris Matthews. She described how she and some other people locked arms at the park entrance to attempt to block the alt-right from entering the park, and then described the escalation of violence from that point. She seemed to be oblivious to the fact that she, personally, had initiated the violence. Apparently if you have good intentions, it doesn't count.

Yes, I am saying that blocking a sidewalk is violence, and it will inevitably lead to more violence when there are two groups of heavily armed rowdies are in close proximity.

As for the murder by vehicle that happened later on, yes, this time it was an alt-righter. In Dallas last year, it was a leftie. I don't see a hill of beans worth of difference between the two.

I'll go so far as to say that President Trump was wrong in saying there were good people on both sides. I can't see how any good people could attend that rally on the alt-right side. However, he was right to say that there were bad people on both sides.
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:01 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Explain what the difference is. It took over 30 years for people from Liverpool to be cleared from the suggestions that they robbed the dead and urinated on coppers, lol.

For 30+ years we were told that we were thieves and criminals, by the Yorkshire police, the media and the public. I'm not black, I'm not Asian, but I am a white Scouser, and I've been abused by whites, blacks and Muslims. Ignorance and its effects aren't exclusive to minorities. I was told only recently by a member of this very forum that "my people" were responsible for all manner of sick and twisted things that they'd pulled out of their behind.
I don't know who would have told you that on this forum, but I'm sorry you have been so badly treated. Do not think, though, that what you have experienced is something worth fighting against?


Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
It's not that I don't understand it, it's that I think it's nonsense. I'm against ignorance and prejudice, but not only when it's being committed by white people, and that's the difference between me and the AntiFa.
No, apparently the difference is that Antifa does something about one kind of evil in the world. You don't have to fight every evil out there. Antifa has chosen theirs, and I think we can all agree that the evil they fight is real.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
No, it's obvious that you see yourself as a privileged man of good moral compass, who thinks that anyone not devoting their time to endless marches is part of a problem. The real problem is in people making up rules that don't mean anything, and labeling other people as privileged problems. It's like you can't stand being white, lol.
That's the real problem in the world? It's not racism or bigotry or wars or famine, but people who think you're privileged? Get a ******* grip.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Here you go again, I don't "see minorities' struggles as being important enough to stand up for..." You basically just proved to me that you don't actually read anything I type unless you perceive it as being negative in context. I have already told you some of the things I've done in my own community in the fight against prejudice and bigotry. You have opted to ignore them, as per usual, and continue with your apologist rhetoric.
You have told me you celebrate other people's culture. The more I read of your posts, the less I believe that.

Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
You, therefore, are a big part of the problem, in that you don't see things for how they are, but merely see them for the way you think they appear, that is highly ignorant.
"No U" is the way you wanna go with this?
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:04 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
So, you don't say they're as bad, except when you do. Got it.
That's funny, because you claimed I said the counter-protesters "were worse than the racists," when I never typed anything of that sort at all. You implied that I felt the AntiFa were no better than fascists, which is a totally different thing to what I actually stated, which was this: "neither group is any better than the other in terms of violence," so you knew what I meant, you're just a weirdly disingenuous and snide person, presumably older than I, which is frankly embarrassing when you get down to it.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Care to explain how people are expected to defend themselves against violence while not using violence?
Anyone worth their salt in unarmed combat would tell you that the first rule of self-defense is to stay out of trouble. It takes two to tango, mate. You make out like these AntiFa guys are just standing around minding their own business. Disingenuous.




Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Really, are you claiming that the Irish have never discriminated against black people? Seriously? That's sad.

http://www.livinginireland.ie/newsle...n_in_workplace
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...port-1.2146079
https://www.ucc.ie/publications/heeu...y/chiwangu.htm
https://www.thoughtco.com/immigrants...merica-2834585
http://www.pitt.edu/~hirtle/uujec/white.html

Of course, it wasn't just black people. The Irish have never been particularly fond of Jews either. Limerick pogrom ring a bell?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-35999118.html


Do I need to go on?
If you think I ever stated such a nonsensical thing as that then you're truly mentally unbalanced, lol. Where on earth did I ever say that anyone from Ireland hadn't been racist? What a painfully stupid thing to claim. I've said, about twenty times, that racism occurs everywhere, among all colours and creeds.

You're such a weird guy.
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:04 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
We may safely assume that everyone waving a confederate flag desires total annihilation of all PoC?
We may safely assume that everyone who attend a rally organized by Nazis and white supremacists aren't adverse to the idea of a "final solution".
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:10 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't see it that way at all. Let me try to illustrate.

If communists were to take power in America, they would take away everything I've worked for. They would seize my property. Moreover, communism requires dictatorship, so they would take away our rights. The next time I see a rally where the communists, or their fellow travelers in IWW or Sparticist League or whoever it is they are, are in attendance, it is imperative that I go down and voice my opposition. And because I know that these communists often resort to violence, I must take my baseball bat to protect myself.

Right?

No. Not at all. But why not? Maybe it's because I need to understand their viewpoint better? No, that's not it. Maybe it's because I have lied about the communists and they don't actually seize property or form dictatorships? No, the communists have a pretty strong track record on that point. It's pretty accurate.

The reason I shouldn't take my baseball bat to their rally is because the communists should not be taken seriously. There are so few of them that they are of no real significance, and the ones that do exist in America are laughable examples of humanity that are only good for providing subjects for ridicule.

And even though they think Bernie Sanders is the best candidate that has come along in decades, he is not actually a communist, nor is he even an ally of communists.

The communists don't matter. Neither do the white supremacists. They just aren't worth the attention.
I'm sorry, but this might just be the dumbest post in the thread. Nobody's asking you to work for a communist takeover. We are asking you to stand up to casual racism that you might encounter in your own life, and to at least make an attempt to understand why BLM and Antifa are doing what they are doing.

White supremacists don't matter to you, because... wait for it... YOU'RE WHITE. They're not after you.
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