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Old 26th August 2017, 12:32 AM   #321
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
I find this hard to believe and I think you do as well.

Do you extend this courtesy to everyone? Should the religious right pleasantly coexist with people who hate them? I think they should.
I'm not sure what gotcha you think you conjured up here.

The religious right aren't hated for what they are but what they do and say. If you quietly go about your business thinking Jesus is great evolution is a lie and gays are going to help then absolutely you should not be hated and vilified for that. And if groups were going around harassing them for that they should be opposed.
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Old 26th August 2017, 12:49 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You know, sometimes I get the impression that "privilege" has nothing to do with circumstances, only with gender and skin colour; all things you can't control. Gee, that idea almost sounds... racist.
Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Tell me about it, lol.

I wish I had something to show for all of this privilege that I've had over the years.
I know the word can be confusing but I don't think the concept is. It's just a statement of fact.

Privilege doesn't mean you have easy in general, it just means you don't suffer from a specific issue.

So an unemployed poor white person has privilege over Barack Obama in that he doesn't suffer racism against him because he's black. It doesn't mean he has an easier life or has things better overall.

Equally Obama would have had other forms of privilege potentially over the poor white guy.
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Old 26th August 2017, 02:43 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I know the word can be confusing but I don't think the concept is. It's just a statement of fact.
Ah, well. No need to demonstrate it, then.
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Old 26th August 2017, 04:48 AM   #324
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You cannot see, feel, taste or experience privilege until it is withdrawn or missing. Short of adopting a minority child and watching every time they are shorted, from the playground on up through life, I suppose the only way is to become a despised minority oneself. And the only way to do that is to move somewhere folks can note the ethnic difference without one opening one's mouth; on mere sight. Recommended for those in doubt, but only effective when young, as careers, friendships, and even getting health care professionals or police personnel to pay any attention, become somehow much more difficult, and many outcomes seem mysteriously off somehow.

For those experiencing it, it is if the air itself becomes thicker and more resistant, making every move an extra effort. If you ain't been there, very hard to grasp, which is why losing it is normally the one way to understand it. Perhaps viewing the experiences of white people moving to work in Asia when young on YouTube is about the only thing around that might help give some clue.
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Old 26th August 2017, 06:10 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
... and still realize that Antifa and BLM largely consist of violent agitators.
I've asked something similar before, but how do we know BLM consists largely of violent agitators?
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Old 26th August 2017, 06:11 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
You cannot see, feel, taste or experience privilege until it is withdrawn or missing. Short of adopting a minority child and watching every time they are shorted, from the playground on up through life, I suppose the only way is to become a despised minority oneself. And the only way to do that is to move somewhere folks can note the ethnic difference without one opening one's mouth; on mere sight. Recommended for those in doubt, but only effective when young, as careers, friendships, and even getting health care professionals or police personnel to pay any attention, become somehow much more difficult, and many outcomes seem mysteriously off somehow.

For those experiencing it, it is if the air itself becomes thicker and more resistant, making every move an extra effort. If you ain't been there, very hard to grasp, which is why losing it is normally the one way to understand it. Perhaps viewing the experiences of white people moving to work in Asia when young on YouTube is about the only thing around that might help give some clue.
Tl;dr
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Old 26th August 2017, 06:49 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I know the word can be confusing but I don't think the concept is. It's just a statement of fact.

Privilege doesn't mean you have easy in general, it just means you don't suffer from a specific issue.

So an unemployed poor white person has privilege over Barack Obama in that he doesn't suffer racism against him because he's black. It doesn't mean he has an easier life or has things better overall.

Equally Obama would have had other forms of privilege potentially over the poor white guy.
You'd be surprised how many issues I've had in my time working across the UK with being from Liverpool, mate. I don't see the difference in getting issues for being gay, or being black, any more so than I do for being Scouse. It's basically a way for people to make out like their problems are worse, and worthy of a parade. Which is why I'm pushing forward for a Scouse Pride march, lol.

An unemployed white guy has every right to complain about his lot in life versus the wealthy and well-respected former president, Barrack Obama.

I don't buy into white privilege, and I don't feel any guilt.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:02 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
You'd be surprised how many issues I've had in my time working across the UK with being from Liverpool, mate. I don't see the difference in getting issues for being gay, or being black, any more so than I do for being Scouse. It's basically a way for people to make out like their problems are worse, and worthy of a parade. Which is why I'm pushing forward for a Scouse Pride march, lol.

An unemployed white guy has every right to complain about his lot in life versus the wealthy and well-respected former president, Barrack Obama.

I don't buy into white privilege, and I don't feel any guilt.
This is remarkably ignorant of what white privilege includes. For example, your entire life you have had depictions in art and media that resembled you. Minorities have had that few and far between. It has a fundamental impact to self esteem and that matters.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:05 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This is remarkably ignorant of what white privilege includes. For example, your entire life you have had depictions in art and media that resembled you. Minorities have had that few and far between. It has a fundamental impact to self esteem and that matters.
Was this supposed to be funny? Because I just laughed whilst reading it.

You're telling me that black people aren't depicted in art or literature?

Now we're really scraping the barrel.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:09 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Was this supposed to be funny? Because I just laughed whilst reading it.

You're telling me that black people aren't depicted in art or literature?

Now we're really scraping the barrel.
Isn't the BBC labeled as historically bad at reflecting the nation's diversity in television?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...rust-tony-hall

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcne...er-pay-n784511

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Old 26th August 2017, 07:15 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Was this supposed to be funny? Because I just laughed whilst reading it.

You're telling me that black people aren't depicted in art or literature?

Now we're really scraping the barrel.
I said "few and far between". Your interpretation as "aren't depicted" is a huge misreading of what I wrote.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:16 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Isn't the BBC labeled as historically bad at reflecting the nation's diversity in television?
Why do you presume that the BBC is the be all and end all of culture? You claimed that black people didn't have the advantage of being depicted in art, and now you're asking me whether the BBC were bad at reflecting diversity.

As far as I know, black people and gay people have had their fair share of exposure on television over here. You could argue that the 60's and 70's weren't very PC, but we already know that, because it was a totally different time.

We pretty much live in an age, especially in UK, were the notion that LGBT or people of ethnicity are still living as second-class citizens, is purely nonsense.

People like to believe that the times are harsher than they really are. There are some people from all walks of life right now who've never had a hard day of labour in their life, and have never wanted for anything. Every individual's situation is unique. My mum grew up in a building without windows, or heating, or anything remotely privileged, in a largely ethnic area in Toxteth, full of poor people of every colour, now she had a tougher upbringing than any black kid down my street, or any gay man or woman. To argue that LGBT or black people have it tough merely for being black is to ignore reality. Of course, plenty of people have it tough for the colour of their skin, but it's not a default problem that applies to everyone. Take one walk around the UK's major cities and see how many forgotten white people you can spot living on street-corners, go and ask them to check their privilege.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:25 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Why do you presume that the BBC is the be all and end all of culture? You claimed that black people didn't have the advantage of being depicted in art, and now you're asking me whether the BBC were bad at reflecting diversity.

As far as I know, black people and gay people have had their fair share of exposure on television over here. You could argue that the 60's and 70's weren't very PC, but we already know that, because it was a totally different time.

We pretty much live in an age, especially in UK, were the notion that LGBT or people of ethnicity are still living as second-class citizens, is purely nonsense.
I said their depictions are few and far between.

Let's take your assumption of the 70s as correct (which I think is wrong) and say everything was fixed by 1980. 52% of the UK team was born before 1980. That is a significant percentage to have experienced this issue. If it has a next generation impact then nearly everyone is affected by it.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:25 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I said "few and far between". Your interpretation as "aren't depicted" is a huge misreading of what I wrote.
Your statement that black people's depiction in art and culture is "few and far between" kind of makes me think you've never been to any art museum/gallery or library in your life.

The idea that people of ethnicity haven't been depicted in art as much as white people is just supremely idiotic to me, and ignores many things, such as who it was that created such art, what was the art reflecting, what was the story about? etc etc. If you're talking about art made in a small town where the influx of ethnic people was small, then you're unlikely to see depictions of them in art or literature, whereas you go to a seafaring town, and you'll see far more depictions in their art of the various peoples who live there.

My city has many old communities of people from around the globe, and they're certainly reflected in their art and ours, you can see them in the many museums and libraries that we have here. We even have a Slavery Remembrance Day, which most people don't know about, the last one was just a few days ago.

I have art and antiques from all kinds of cultures, and it's widely available in this city, because of our history with the ports and the sea. Now, it's obvious that a place without those connections may not have the same reflection of ethnicity and its art, but that's common sense.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:28 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I said their depictions are few and far between.

Let's take your assumption of the 70s as correct (which I think is wrong) and say everything was fixed by 1980. 52% of the UK team was born before 1980. That is a significant percentage to have experienced this issue. If it has a next generation impact then nearly everyone is affected by it.
You're saying that the BBC in the 70's was politically correct, then? Well, that's strange.

I'm not sure what you mean by "everything was fixed by 1980."

Black people, gay people, Asian people, have all had plenty of coverage on television over the years here in the UK. That's not to say it was always flattering, but a lot of television wasn't exactly flattering even for white people.

In the last 20 years alone, we've had some pretty breakthrough television that has celebrated people of all walks of life.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:30 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Your statement that black people's depiction in art and culture is "few and far between" kind of makes me think you've never been to any art museum/gallery or library in your life.

The idea that people of ethnicity haven't been depicted in art as much as white people is just supremely idiotic to me, and ignores many things, such as who it was that created such art, what was the art reflecting, what was the story about? etc etc. If you're talking about art made in a small town where the influx of ethnic people was small, then you're unlikely to see depictions of them in art of literature, whereas you go to a seafaring town, and you'll see far more depictions in their art of the various peoples who live there.

My city has many old communities of people from around the globe, and they're certainly reflected in their art and ours, you can see them in the many museums and libraries that we have here. We even have an Slavery Remembrance Day, which most people don't know about, the last one was just a few days ago.

I have art and antiques from all kinds of cultures, and it's widely available in this city, because of our history with the ports and the sea. Now, it's obvious that a place without those connections may not have the same reflection of ethnicity and its art, but that's common sense.
I said art and media. At this point I can't speak about the UK, but the US education system has been very poor at teaching art and history to include minority voices.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:32 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
You're saying that the BBC in the 70's was politically correct, then? Well, that's strange.

I'm not sure what you mean by "everything was fixed by 1980."

Black people, gay people, Asian people, have all had plenty of coverage on television over the years here in the UK. That's not to say it was always flattering, but a lot of television wasn't exactly flattering even for white people.

In the last 20 years alone, we've had some pretty breakthrough television that has celebrated people of all walks of life.
I meant take your assumption that depictions in the 70s were non PC as a correct assumption.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:36 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I said art and media. At this point I can't speak about the UK, but the US education system has been very poor at teaching art and history to include minority voices.
Well maybe that's a problem you have in the US. I can tell you that our museums and libraries are full of art and literature from all corners of the globe. My bookshelf has all kinds of stuff in it right now, as I collect books and all manner of weird stuff from across the world, and across the ages.

Our town-center has one of the most visited China-towns in Europe, with one of the most unique Chinese arches anywhere, given to us by Shanghai:

https://www.visitliverpool.com/thing...se-arch-p54681

Our history with the Caribbean community is well-storied, there are currently plans for a Caribbean center, almost like our China town: http://friendsofthecaribbeanliverpool.yolasite.com/

Everything from our architecture and our art and literature is influenced by our travels across the globe, and the many cultures who have come here and added their pieces. We're one of the most multi-cultured cities on earth.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:38 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I meant take your assumption that depictions in the 70s were non PC as a correct assumption.
If you're going to say that there was any era that wasn't exactly PC, for us, it was certainly the 70's. Obviously, things started to change, especially in terms of comedy, as with the 80's we had far more freedom to be diverse, which is how guys like Lenny Henry started their careers.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:40 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
You cannot see, feel, taste or experience privilege until it is withdrawn or missing. Short of adopting a minority child and watching every time they are shorted, from the playground on up through life, I suppose the only way is to become a despised minority oneself. And the only way to do that is to move somewhere folks can note the ethnic difference without one opening one's mouth; on mere sight. Recommended for those in doubt, but only effective when young, as careers, friendships, and even getting health care professionals or police personnel to pay any attention, become somehow much more difficult, and many outcomes seem mysteriously off somehow.

For those experiencing it, it is if the air itself becomes thicker and more resistant, making every move an extra effort. If you ain't been there, very hard to grasp, which is why losing it is normally the one way to understand it. Perhaps viewing the experiences of white people moving to work in Asia when young on YouTube is about the only thing around that might help give some clue.
I was living in the US South with long hair (usually in a ponytail), at a time when long hair on a man was not as acceptable there as it is now. The day I had my hair cut short, the difference in the way strangers treated me was remarkable. Suddenly, everyone was friendly instead of suspicious and rude. Years before I had done the same while living in the North, and there was no noticeable change. I can imagine that going from black to white would be far more dramatic.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:44 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Black people, gay people, Asian people, have all had plenty of coverage on television over the years here in the UK. That's not to say it was always flattering, but a lot of television wasn't exactly flattering even for white people.
We would have to agree on a definition of plenty but I would bet this isn't true.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:48 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
We would have to agree on a definition of plenty but I would bet this isn't true.
You're not speaking from a place of actual knowledge, though, you're presuming. You also told me that my statement about the 70's not being very PC was incorrect, which makes me wonder where you're getting any of your information from. Thin air?
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:54 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
You're not speaking from a place of actual knowledge, though, you're presuming. You also told me that my statement about the 70's not being very PC was incorrect, which makes me wonder where you're getting any of your information from. Thin air?
A) the part that I meant I didn't think was correct was anything implied by "it was a different time." I was trying to communicate I wasn't conceding anything on that point while discussing a hypothetical.

B) Out of thin air? Yes. That is why I said I would bet on it. I'm purposely taking a position only in the context of wagering and gambling which can involve a certain amount of intuition and risk taking.
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Old 26th August 2017, 07:58 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A) the part that I meant I didn't think was correct was anything implied by "it was a different time." I was trying to communicate I wasn't conceding anything on that point while discussing a hypothetical.
Well, it was a different time, our history of television shows in the 70's that were a little sketchy in terms of being PC are well-documented, so I have no idea what you're talking about, tbh.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
B) Out of thin air? Yes. That is why I said I would bet on it. I'm purposely taking a position only in the context of wagering and gambling which can involve a certain amount of intuition and risk taking.
You're going to bet that ethnic and gay people haven't had plenty of TV coverage in the UK over the years? Are you serious? You didn't even know about the fact that our museums and libraries are chocked full of art and literature from across the globe, and you're actually going to bet me about television that you've likely never seen before?

Is this real life?
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:00 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A) the part that I meant I didn't think was correct was anything implied by "it was a different time." I was trying to communicate I wasn't conceding anything on that point while discussing a hypothetical.

B) Out of thin air? Yes. That is why I said I would bet on it. I'm purposely taking a position only in the context of wagering and gambling which can involve a certain amount of intuition and risk taking.
What's happened here is that you made a pretty odd statement about ethnic people not being depicted in art and literature as much, I explained how you were wrong and gave examples, and you've just resorted to outright denial. That's weird.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:03 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Well, it was a different time, our history of television shows in the 70's that were a little sketchy in terms of being PC are well-documented, so I have no idea what you're talking about, tbh.



You're going to bet that ethnic and gay people haven't had plenty of TV coverage in the UK over the years? Are you serious? You didn't even know about the fact that our museums and libraries are chocked full of art and literature from across the globe, and you're actually going to bet me about television that you've likely never seen before?

Is this real life?
A) I read your original comment as implication that things improved afterwards. Since my scenario involved identifying what percent of the population would have been directly affected, I set the cut off at 1980. But it doing that, I wanted to state I was not conceding to you how much improvement occurred after the 80s.

B) gambling involves risk. I would definitely make a bet on that if the odds and terms were right. Gambling doesn't require I take a skeptical position.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:05 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
What's happened here is that you made a pretty odd statement about ethnic people not being depicted in art and literature as much, I explained how you were wrong and gave examples, and you've just resorted to outright denial. That's weird.
I never said literature.

I used a hypothetical that even operated under the assumption that everything is great now. That wouldn't be a denial of your position. That takes your position as given.

I haven't denied anything.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:07 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
A) I read your original comment as implication that things improved afterwards. Since my scenario involved identifying what percent of the population would have been directly affected, I set the cut off at 1980. But it doing that, I wanted to state I was not conceding to you how much improvement occurred after the 80s.
Things did improve afterwards, I told you that. The 80's brought about a shift in what type of comedy was shown, what type of people were shown, and everything in between. Comedy itself was a major factor in that change, along with the shift in music in the late 70's/early 80's. More diversity was clearly apparent on our screens. This is a period that is well-documented, so I'd suggest doing some research on it, as you apparently have not.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
B) gambling involves risk. I would definitely make a bet on that if the odds and terms were right. Gambling doesn't require I take a skeptical position.
I don't understand why you'd make a bet on something which you've demonstrably shown to be ill-informed on, though. You're essentially just denying that what I'm telling you is true for the sake of it. I don't get this conversation at this point.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:11 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I never said literature.

I used a hypothetical that even operated under the assumption that everything is great now. That wouldn't be a denial of your position. That takes your position as given.

I haven't denied anything.
You said art, which obviously should include literature. You made the claim that ethnic people weren't depicted in art, I said that in order to assess such a thing, you'd have to actually look at the artist, where the art came from, what it was depicting/reflecting, and what the story was about... You've decided to avoid that common sense, for some reason.

I don't know where you live, but like I said, I barely have to go 20 minutes out of my way to see plenty of examples of art depicting people from across the globe, nor do I have to go a mile out of my way in order to pick up a book that could be about the far-reaches of Africa, or Asia.

As I said, this conversation seems to have turned into you basically telling me I'm incorrect about things that you obviously aren't sure about.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:11 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post

I don't understand why you'd make a bet on something which you've demonstrably shown to be ill-informed on, though. You're essentially just denying that what I'm telling you is true for the sake of it. I don't get this conversation at this point.
You don't have to know my gambling strategy.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:12 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Is this real life?
No, we're playing fantasy oppression. Which is sad because it distracts us from real problems, including actual oppression.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:14 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You don't have to know my gambling strategy.
Thank you for essentially proving that you're now just talking nonsense because you made a silly claim that I have shown you to be untrue.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:15 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
You said art, which obviously should include literature. You made the claim that ethnic people weren't depicted in art,

As I said, this conversation seems to have turned into you basically telling me I'm incorrect about things that you obviously aren't sure about.
I didn't say they were not depicted, either.

I have not told you that you were incorrect. Saying under certain circumstances I would wager against your position doesn't mean I even think you are wrong.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:15 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The religious right aren't hated for what they are but what they do and say.
This is irrelevant.

All haters have reasons for why they hate that go beyond the targets of their hate merely existing.

Anti-semites hate Jews because they are greedy bankers. Anti-black racists hate Blacks because they are criminal thugs. Anti-gay haters hate gays because they are going to convert their children and spread diseases. Anti-white racists hate whites because they are over privileged oppressors.

Now that we've debunked that nonsense, could you answer the question?
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:16 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, we're playing fantasy oppression. Which is sad because it distracts us from real problems, including actual oppression.
It's such a strange game, and this is coming from a person who converses with Bigfoot-believers.

To make an odd claim, and then twist it, and deny any evidence to the contrary...

So strange.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:18 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't say they were not depicted, either.

I have not told you that you were incorrect. Saying under certain circumstances I would wager against your position doesn't mean I even think you are wrong.
You told me that they were not depicted "as much" which is what I've been here conversing with you about for the last 30 minutes, lol.

You told me I was probably incorrect about the 70's not being very PC, your post is there for all to see. You also told me I was likely incorrect in my view that ethnic people and LGBT people have been shown on TV plenty of times over the years.

Now you're just denying that you're denying things.

Why not stop this weirdness, and actually address the things I've said which are in contrast to the claims you've made?
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:19 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This is remarkably ignorant of what white privilege includes. For example, your entire life you have had depictions in art and media that resembled you. Minorities have had that few and far between. It has a fundamental impact to self esteem and that matters.
Real or Poe?
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:21 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Real or Poe?
I can only pray that it's some form of weird satire.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:22 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
You told me that they were not depicted "as much" which is what I've been here conversing with you about for the last 30 minutes, lol.

You told me I was probably incorrect about the 70's not being very PC, your post is there for all to see. You also told me I was likely incorrect in my view that ethnic people and LGBT people have been shown on TV plenty of times over the years.

Now you're just denying that you're denying things.

Why not stop this weirdness, and actually address the things I've said which are in contrast to the claims you've made?
As much and not depicted are not the same thing.

Since you pointed out that you interpreted my initial statement as implying i thought the 70s were PC, I have made several posts to clarify the miscommunication.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:26 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
As much and not depicted are not the same thing.
Who said they were? I've been responding to you on the basis that you seem to think ethnic cultures have not been depicted "as much" in art, which I have shown you to be demonstrably false. You keep avoiding any further debate on the issue, instead choosing to play a silly game of "I didn't say it like that, I said it like this." It's tiring and non-productive.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Since you pointed out that you interpreted my initial statement as implying j thought the 70s were PC, I have made several posts to clarify the miscommunication.
You came right out and said that you thought my notions of the 70's not being very PC were probably incorrect. Unless you've gone back and edited your post then I don't see why you're now pretending to not have said it.

Again, can you start addressing my argument that what you said is false, or is this conversation now over?
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