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Old 6th September 2017, 08:51 AM   #201
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
a known racist prop
Banana peels are not known racists props, they are however, known comedic props.

But that is some next level begging the question, poisoning the well there, I gotta tell you.

Find the apology yet which until a few minutes ago you did not know existed.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:53 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That absolutely does not support your conclusion that both races got fired up, not by a long shot.
The reporting is that both 'had a lot to say' and that it moved in an 'unhealthy direction', as 'tensions continued to rise'. To paraphrase saying 'fired up' seems an accurate wording. Pedantic much?

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The actual fact is that the whites were either supportive or apathetic.
Provide said evidence of this fact.

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Do some research before you accuse others of lying.
See above.

ETA: you are right, though. 'Pants on fire' was unfair, retracted with apology.
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Old 6th September 2017, 08:55 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The excerpt states that lots of people spoke and things went south ("in an unhealthy direction"), but doesn't make reference to the ethnic distribution of emotional reactions.

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That is true. In context, though, I see no reason to infer anything but both getting riled.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:02 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
The reporting is that both 'had a lot to say' and that it moved in an 'unhealthy direction', as 'tensions continued to rise'. To paraphrase saying 'fired up' seems an accurate wording. Pedantic much?

Provide said evidence of this fact.

See above.

Some white students seemed receptive. Others appeared apathetic. Many NPHC members denounced the disunity between white and black fraternities and sororities. Black students gave testimony, bearing witness to the subtle racism that pervades our campus.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:06 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
My post was an attempt to sarcastically illustrate that (as discussed above) a self reported motivation, sans compelling evidence to the contrary, carries a greater weight of validity than the supposition of a third party.
Why give credence to the self reported evidence of the student but not to the people involved in later discussion of the issue? If anything only former has reason to lie, but many people only seem to be questioning the latter.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:07 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Nice strawman, but why was it (a known racist prop) hanging prominently in a tree outside a space occupied by a black sorority?
Is there a book somewhere compiled with every potentially provocative act imaginable? I'd literally never heard of this banana thing (participants of the discussion were told to Google it, so I guess it was expected that it was obscure enough not to be presupposed knowledge).

Plus it wasn't unopened and hanging from a noose, so other than "banana" it bears exactly no other resemblance to the incident it would supposedly be a copycat of.

I think the legal term for the evidentiary weight that has is "some really weak ****."

Like I said, reminds me of Glenn Beck's blackboard.

Quote:
Sure there “could” be some innocent explanation for a known racist prop to be displayed in such a location
Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it more true.

Quote:
but there is no evidence it was innocent other than the student denying it.
Onus is on _____ to prove the assertion.

Please fill in the blank.

Quote:
The problem is that he was going to deny any racist intent regardless,
If he wanted to stir up racial drama, he wouldn't have come forward at all, he would be mentally munching popcorn quietly.

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his explanation was really weird
What's weird about, "the banana is in the tree because I put it there. I see now that was a bad idea. Sorry."?

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and when faculty tried to investigate, things [hilite]turned racist and hateful.[hilite]
Citation needed.

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The only overreaction I see anywhere is people overacting to the fact the faculty didn’t just side with the white student immediately.
Who's doing that? Name names, don't create phantoms to inveigh against.

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Given the way things played out, it’s pretty clear that they should not have,
I like how you went from inventing the accusation right into accepting it as proven and land on positioning yourself against the actually still just a speculative theory you made up.

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but apparently when a white people say there is no racial motivation behind what they are doing it’s outrageous if people don’t just shut up about it.
Can I barge into your life, malign your character with nothing but supposition about what your motives behind the things you're doing despite plain as day explanations and then characterize your objection to my doing so as you being unreasonable and unwilling to accept others' perspectives?

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Old 6th September 2017, 09:09 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
One student writing that some seemed receptive and others apathetic seals the spectrum for you, huh? There is a difference between saying all were supportive or apathetic (she does not say this), and some were.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:09 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Banana peels are not known racists props,
False. They have been and continue to be used as racist props by racists.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:12 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The evidence presented doesn’t support there being any over-reaction on the part of the faculty. Clearly however, the outrage over their decision is over-reaction at the very least, and probably racially motivated over-reaction as well.
Lat's take a look at the highlighted bit -

It's plausible that the banana skin was placed there as a racist taunt. OK.

What if it had been:

Actual bananas hanging from nooses?
Black figurines hanging from nooses?
Nazi thugs strutting along hurling racial abuse?
Nazi thugs hurling racial abuse and aiming slaps at black students?
etc ...

Doesn't the response to an offence need, somehow, to be be proportional to the severity of the offence?

It was said upthread that dramatic responses to minor slights actually enables the offenders, and I agree completely. And in this case it's only a plausible offence.

Put it another way - would the staff at an office be justified in closing down the office for a day if a male manager makes a remark that could plausibly be read as sexist?
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:14 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
One student writing that some seemed receptive and others apathetic seals the spectrum for you, huh? There is a difference between saying all were supportive or apathetic She does not say this), and some were.
Uh huh. We are at the point where I have provided direct evidence from an actual participant, and you have provided nothing to support your claim that "both races got fired up"

Now it appears that you are suggesting that her supposed silence on the status of "all" participants somehow serves as evidence for your speculation?

No, it does not, although i will cheerfully concede that the blacks got "riled up."
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:14 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It’s only “known” if you trust the white student without question and question the black student’s ability to figure out what’s going on around them without reason. Seemingly at least, this suggests attitudes of “I trust white people until the facts prove conclusively they are lying” and “I mistrust black people until the facts prove conclusively they have basis for what they are saying”.
Just like supernatural claims lying or not lying are not the only two options. No one is saying fabrication, just overreaction.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:15 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
False. They have been and continue to be used as racist props by racists.
Uh huh, we'll take your word for it, then?

Say, you get around to reading the apology yet? You didn't actually, you know, follow up on that....
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:16 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
False. They have been and continue to be used as racist props by racists.
Racists also get together on obscure internet forums to discuss and plan racism.

Might have to stop breathing racist oxygen, too.

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Old 6th September 2017, 09:19 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
That is not the reported cause of the cancellation. Most posters are completely ignoring this.

The reported cause of the event cancellation was a roundtable talk that went south, and the black students felt intimidated/unwelcome. The banana was already given credibility as an 'unintentional image'.
Sorry it was because some people over reacted to a banana peel.

I know you are trying to throw guilt but it's just not sticking. If peopleare acting stupid, I'm calling it out, regardless of race.


Real racists are loving this btw. They don't even have to do things to cause **** any more.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:21 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
False. They have been and continue to be used as racist props by racists.
I thought that was bananas themselves.
Seriously.
I can't think of the peel being used by itself.
Not saying you're wrong!
Just saying I didn't know that.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:31 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Sorry it was because some people over reacted to a banana peel.

I know you are trying to throw guilt but it's just not sticking. If peopleare acting stupid, I'm calling it out, regardless of race.


Real racists are loving this btw. They don't even have to do things to cause **** any more.
No guilt to throw. Just reading the reporting, which says that the progressively tense discussion including race relations in general ended in blacks feeling intimidated and unwelcome, resulting in the cancellation. Sounds to me like they were long past worrying about the peel.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:36 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Is there a book somewhere compiled with every potentially provocative act imaginable?
Why would there need to be? Not understanding why someone is offended is very different from thinking they should not be offended.
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Plus it wasn't unopened and hanging from a noose, so other than "banana" it bears exactly no other resemblance to the incident it would supposedly be a copycat of.
Why would it need to be hanging from a nose to be a racist prop? That was simply one particular vile example.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'd literally never heard of this banana thing
Even though it was already posted in the thread?
Post 55
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Bananas used as a racist prop is a real thing.
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Onus is on _____ to prove the assertion.

Please fill in the blank.
Clearly the onus is on you since you are the one making the assertion and you are the one whose position dependents on that assertion.

All I have discussed is the different standard of trust being applied to the various parties. You seem to think we should trust the white student and mistrust the people offended and the people that decided to cancel the event. Instead of evidence all you seem to be doing us hand waving.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:40 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
All I have discussed is the different standard of trust being applied to the various parties. You seem to think we should trust the white student and mistrust the people offended and the people that decided to cancel the event. Instead of evidence all you seem to be doing us hand waving.
No, that is indeed not at all accurate. You claimed "The problem is that he was going to deny any racist intent regardless, his explanation was really weird and when faculty tried to investigate, things turned racist and hateful."

There is no evidence to support that claim at all, and much to refute it.

Although if it is your contention that the black students got "racist and hateful" I am certainly willing to concede that claim.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:41 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Uh huh. We are at the point where I have provided direct evidence from an actual participant, and you have provided nothing to support your claim that "both races got fired up"

Now it appears that you are suggesting that her supposed silence on the status of "all" participants somehow serves as evidence for your speculation?

No, it does not, although i will cheerfully concede that the blacks got "riled up."
If, as reported, the black students felt intimidated and unwelcome, I reasonably infer that the discussion was heated on both sides. You seem to think that, what, they intimidated themselves? Please elaborate on what you are projecting onto these black students to reach such a conclusion.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:43 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Why would there need to be? Not understanding why someone is offended is very different from thinking they should not be offended.
Your statements were leading in the direction of "the banana dropper should have known/the racially motivated explanation is the default explanation for bananas in trees."

But wiggle away if you please.

Quote:
Why would it need to be hanging from a nose to be a racist prop? That was simply one particular vile example.
Because that would contextualize it to a specific (if obscure) incident. That incident was referenced as background material for everyone at the meeting to inform themselves of.

I cannot stress enough how absurd it is that "banana=racist".

Quote:
Even though it was already posted in the thread?
Post 55
Before reading about this incident in this thread.

Stop being obtuse.

Quote:
Clearly the onus is on you since you are the one making the assertion and you are the one whose position dependents on that assertion.
I'm not the one who asserted that a banana in a tree is a racist threat.

Quote:
All I have discussed is the different standard of trust being applied to the various parties. You seem to think we should trust the white student and mistrust the people offended and the people that decided to cancel the event. Instead of evidence all you seem to be doing us hand waving.
I have not advocated mistrusting anyone, actually. I stated that the admission of the deed by the accused and their testimony as to the reason stands as having more evidential weight to me than a free-association supposition of "I saw a banana and that's racist."

Please stop misrepresenting my motives.

You're doing exactly what leads to this kind of *********. You presume I must be for the white guy because of his whiteness and hand-wave away the clearly articulated reasoning that I stated I was using.

ETA: I apologize for my (now removed) hostility, but jesus christ on a cracker, please check yourself.

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Old 6th September 2017, 09:47 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
I thought that was bananas themselves.
Seriously.
I can't think of the peel being used by itself.
Not saying you're wrong!
Just saying I didn't know that.
Don’t ask me to fully understand the thought process of racists but it seems to go something along the lines of monkeys eat banana and African are more like monkeys than humans. It doesn’t seem like this “logic” depends on any particular presentation of a banana, eg throwing one on the ice when there was a black hockey player in the game was another use of bananas as a racist prop.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:47 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
If, as reported, the black students felt intimidated and unwelcome, I reasonably infer that the discussion was heated on both sides. You seem to think that, what, they intimidated themselves? Please elaborate on what you are projecting onto these black students to reach such a conclusion.
First, let us note the lack of evidence supporting the claim ""both races got fired up," again.

Second, I have already reported that the Black students felt intimidated and unwelcome BEFORE the meeting:

"My sister took a picture of the banana and sent it to other NPHC members, most of whom responded with immediate urgency. For most black participants, the image of the banana in the tree was jarring, an overt sign that we weren’t welcome."

I have already explained this, yet you ignore it again.

Pretty clear now that there is no question that you both sides were riled up claim is utterly false.
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:57 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Your statements were leading in the direction of "the banana dropper should have known/the racially motivated explanation is the default explanation for bananas in trees."

But wiggle away if you please.



Because that would contextualize it to a specific (if obscure) incident. That incident was referenced as background material for everyone at the meeting to inform themselves of.

I cannot stress enough how absurd it is that "banana=racist".



Before reading about this incident in this thread.

Stop being obtuse.
IOW you have nothing your back up your claim or positon and will continue to fall back on strawmen and handwaving.
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post

I'm not the one who asserted that a banana in a tree is a racist threat.
You asserted that it was a completely innocent misunderstanding but refuse to back that up.
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post

I have not advocated mistrusting anyone, actually.
Then how have you reached the conclusion canceling the event was overreaction?
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Old 6th September 2017, 09:59 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
First, let us note the lack of evidence supporting the claim ""both races got fired up," again.
That is a reasonable inference from the reporting. It specified that both whites and blacks talked a lot, and about race relations, and tensions increased, and black students felt threatened and intimidated. Some supportive or apathetic whites would elicit none of these reactions.

Quote:
Second, I have already reported that the Black students felt intimidated and unwelcome BEFORE the meeting:

"My sister took a picture of the banana and sent it to other NPHC members, most of whom responded with immediate urgency. For most black participants, the image of the banana in the tree was jarring, an overt sign that we weren’t welcome."
Yes, the immediate effect of the banana has been discussed. Imma go out on a limb and say that, hey, some black students may have felt intimidated and unwelcome by southern whites long before that. Why this is lost on you is a mystery. Still not why the event was cancelled.

Quote:
I have already explained this, yet you ignore it again.
Nay, brother: you are ignoring that the reporting says that the event was cancelled after the roundtable talk, not upon finding a banana peel. The discussion got general, not specific to the peel.

Quote:
Pretty clear now that there is no question that you both sides were riled up claim is utterly false.
Only to the reading challenged. But please, keep asserting it over and over. Becomes more believable that way.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:01 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
That is true. In context, though, I see no reason to infer anything but both getting riled.
I feel like if there had actually been any white backlash, the article would have made sure to document it. In context, I infer from the lack of explicit mention that it didn't happen.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:04 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
IOW you have nothing your back up your claim or positon and will continue to fall back on strawmen and handwaving.
I have the statements of the accused as to their intentions behind their actions.

Unless the accusers or yourself have mind-reading powers (which you appear to believe about yourself, at least), then you are actually the one with nothing.

Quote:
You asserted that it was a completely innocent misunderstanding but refuse to back that up.
I did back it up. If you don't accept testimony as backing something up, then we're at quite an impasse.

Quote:
Then how have you reached the conclusion canceling the event was overreaction?
Because a banana in a tree is not a reason to cancel an event. Neither is a long discussion on race relations that ends without everyone ******** rainbow sherbert together.

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Old 6th September 2017, 10:06 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
That is a reasonable inference from the reporting. It specified that both whites and blacks talked a lot, and about race relations, and tensions increased, and black students felt threatened and intimidated. Some supportive or apathetic whites would elicit none of these reactions.



Yes, the immediate effect of the banana has been discussed. Imma go out on a limb and say that, hey, some black students may have felt intimidated and unwelcome by southern whites long before that. Why this is lost on you is a mystery. Still not why the event was cancelled.



Nay, brother: you are ignoring that the reporting says that the event was cancelled after the roundtable talk, not upon finding a banana peel. The discussion got general, not specific to the peel.



Only to the reading challenged. But please, keep asserting it over and over. Becomes more believable that way.
"reasonable" "inference" being a pretty clear signal for "making it all up."

It is fine, I showed that they were triggered when they saw the banana peel and now you concede that:

"Yes, the immediate effect of the banana has been discussed. Imma go out on a limb and say that, hey, some black students may have felt intimidated and unwelcome by southern whites long before that. "

Quote:
Shortly after the banana was found, IMPACT retreat leaders convened a camp-wide meeting. NPHC members used the space as an opportunity to discuss the racial realities of our university community with our white peers. Some white students seemed receptive. Others appeared apathetic. Many NPHC members denounced the disunity between white and black fraternities and sororities. Black students gave testimony, bearing witness to the subtle racism that pervades our campus.
Sounds to me like the blacks got riled up over a whole lot of nothing, now don't it?

I do wish to commend you for sticking to your "inference" despite the complete lack of evidence for it and much to contradict it.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:09 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I feel like if there had actually been any white backlash, the article would have made sure to document it. In context, I infer from the lack of explicit mention that it didn't happen.
A fair observation. I would infer that a black student might not want to be accused of overreacting and so tried to stay neutral in reporting the behavior of whites. Blacks do get accused of this, right?

*MostlyDead glances at the previous postings*
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:13 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Yes, the immediate effect of the banana has been discussed. Imma go out on a limb and say that, hey, some black students may have felt intimidated and unwelcome by southern whites long before that. Why this is lost on you is a mystery. Still not why the event was cancelled.
You've just described profiling.

"Many white people are racist, so it is prudent to expect that behavior from them (and subconsciously presuppose it into their actions)."
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:16 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Nice strawman, but why was it (a known racist prop) hanging prominently in a tree outside a space occupied by a black sorority?
It was not at a space occupied by a black sorority. It was at a summer camp/conference center, not on, or even near, campus.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:16 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
A fair observation. I would infer that a black student might not want to be accused of overreacting and so tried to stay neutral in reporting the behavior of whites. Blacks do get accused of this, right?

*MostlyDead glances at the previous postings*
So now we're speculating about the possible self-censorship of the author in response to the hypothetical objections they might draw if they were to have printed a proposed "real version of the story."

If you're all wondering how a banana in tree becomes "an obvious racist prop", look no further. We have arrived at a perfect case study.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:18 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"reasonable" "inference" being a pretty clear signal for "making it all up."

It is fine, I showed that they were triggered when they saw the banana peel and now you concede that:

"Yes, the immediate effect of the banana has been discussed. Imma go out on a limb and say that, hey, some black students may have felt intimidated and unwelcome by southern whites long before that. "
Now I concede that??? Never disputed it...always acknowledged it...why would you suggest that...oh, that's right. Repeating things to make them sound believable.

Quote:
Sounds to me like the blacks got riled up over a whole lot of nothing, now don't it?
In bold from your quote:Black students gave testimony, bearing witness to the subtle racism that pervades our campus. You offer this, saying...that this is 'riled up over a whole lot of nothing?' I really can't believe what this is turning into.

Quote:
I do wish to commend you for sticking to your "inference" despite the complete lack of evidence for it and much to contradict it.
Thanks. I call it 'reading comprehension in the English language'.

Also, repeat noted. More believable by the minute!
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:19 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
A fair observation. I would infer that a black student might not want to be accused of overreacting and so tried to stay neutral in reporting the behavior of whites. Blacks do get accused of this, right?

*MostlyDead glances at the previous postings*
Infer? I think the word you are searching for is most definitely not "infer," perhaps "speculate" or even better "completely make up"?
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:21 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I have the statements of the accused as to their intentions behind their actions.
Which you trust, when you don’t trust what the back students have said and don’t trust the motivations of the people that canaled the event. This double standard is exactly what I’m calling you on and which you continue to refuse to present any evidence to justify.
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post


Because a banana in a tree is not a reason to cancel an event


a) It’s already well documented that the event was cancel as a result of the conflict in later discussion of the incident
b) A racist prop displayed prominently where black students are staying most certainly is cause for discussion on race regardless of your assertion to the contrary. (BTW, this description is true regardless of what the students intent was, while yours is only true if they were telling the truth)
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:22 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You've just described profiling.

"Many white people are racist, so it is prudent to expect that behavior from them (and subconsciously presuppose it into their actions)."
The observation that some black students may have felt previously intimidated by southern whites...you construe as racial profiling. Gotcha.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:23 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It was not at a space occupied by a black sorority. It was at a summer camp/conference center, not on, or even near, campus.
My understanding is that it was very close to the quarters the sorority was being housed, is this incorrect?
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:28 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
So now we're speculating about the possible self-censorship of the author in response to the hypothetical objections they might draw if they were to have printed a proposed "real version of the story."

If you're all wondering how a banana in tree becomes "an obvious racist prop", look no further. We have arrived at a perfect case study.
You are reading in too much. theprestige opined that the lack of reported white backlash overrides the reporting that the black students felt intimidated and unwelcome by...well, I don't know who else. I countered with another speculative explanation. FWIW, I would expect most college students to use neutral and non-inflammitory writing by default, and that the author was just using a diplomatic writing style.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:33 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Sure, it’s absolutely plausible that he was just doing something stupid and was oblivious to the possible racist overtones.
We've learned in the last few years that everything has possible racist overtones.
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:34 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
You are reading in too much. theprestige opined that the lack of reported white backlash overrides the reporting that the black students felt intimidated and unwelcome by...well, I don't know who else. I countered with another speculative explanation. FWIW, I would expect most college students to use neutral and non-inflammitory writing by default, and that the author was just using a diplomatic writing style.
Nothing more diplomatic than accusing people of pervasive racism!
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Old 6th September 2017, 10:34 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Well, that's not the way I've seen the thread.

There's a fair chunk of people posting that, though the initial reaction to the event was fair enough, it's the reaction after the chap admitted it was him and he was sorry and didn't intend to cause any offence. Which is what sort of gets me as well, to be frank. You'd have thought people would be pleased that the bad thing they thought was happening was actually simply a case of crossed-wires.
Ah, but you're assuming that everyone is being reasonable, and that they don't have biases or agendas to cater to. Some people just need to be outraged or offended. I don't know, maybe it's their way of getting attention in this day and age of parental absence and sensory overload.
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