ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 6th September 2017, 09:50 AM   #201
rwguinn
Penultimate Amazing
 
rwguinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 10,783
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
This is commonly thought by science community but not by homeopathic community. I had gíven one link abóut a study n other link for all studies available on pubmed on homeopathy. You can find many studies in favour of homeopathy. However you can also fínd many studies not in favour of homeopathy. It depend on you, which to choose. Depending on different nature of agents, effects& side effects, apparent outcome can vary.
"You chose... poorly"

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
"
I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
rwguinn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 11:41 AM   #202
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 29,102
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Is she teaching them 7th grade physics?

No, they're letting her know that they are hungry, that they are tired, or that they have **** themselves.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 11:43 AM   #203
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 29,102
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
³I meant other forces than gravity.

WHAT forces?

What forces act on a ball moving fast but not on one moving slowly?
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 11:49 AM   #204
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 29,102
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
This is commonly thought by science community but not by homeopathic community. I had gíven one link abóut a study n other link for all studies available on pubmed on homeopathy. You can find many studies in favour of homeopathy. However you can also fínd many studies not in favour of homeopathy.

So people carry out systematic reviews and meta-analyses, and these show that the apparent effects of homoeopathy are illusory.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 11:57 AM   #205
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 29,102
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
The science is that some patients recover without intervention, but homeopathy - being, effectively, no intervention - claims them as successes. When that's removed from the statistics, it becomes clear that no more people recover with homeopathic treatment than with no treatment, and that therefore homeopathy doesn't work. That's all.

Dave
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
This is commonly thought by science community but not by homeopathic community.

Not necessarily. Here's a comment from a debate about homoeopathy:

Quote:
My Lords, is the Minister aware that homeopathy started at a time when the one treatment they gave people was to bleed them? It was effective because they did not bleed them and allowed them to recover normally; I was on the board of the Royal London Homeopathic Hospital for a good many years, where I learnt that.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 12:48 PM   #206
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,078
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Here by dynamics I mean when Potential is maximum but PE is minimum. How can you differenciate between Potential Energy and Potentiality?
What is potentiality?

Hans
__________________
If you love life, you must accept the traces it leaves.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 12:49 PM   #207
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,078
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I don't know, it came straight back to me. Probably some force overrided gravity.
Nonsense, you just didn't notice the curvature.

Hans
__________________
If you love life, you must accept the traces it leaves.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 01:16 PM   #208
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 24,370
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
This is commonly thought by science community but not by homeopathic community.
Thank you for admitting that homeopathy is not science.

Dave

P.S. It's not medicine either.
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 01:36 PM   #209
GlennB
In search of pi(e)
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 20,724
Maybe Kumar whacked the ball *along the floor* and it returned *along the floor*? Therefore weird force that defies gravity, therefore homeopathy?

Could make sense.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 01:49 PM   #210
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 20,126
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Gravity is there but probably some other force override it.
That would be the force of your ignorance ! Children know that when a ball is thrown, it falls in height. You being unable to notice this does not make a ball fly horizontally in a perfect line, bounce off a wall and return at exactly the same height. That is physically impossible.

Last edited by Reality Check; 6th September 2017 at 02:18 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 01:55 PM   #211
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 20,126
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Now coming back to topic subject, ...
That is a lie, Kumar. You have an irrelevant derail into molecular bonds and the homeopathic idiocy of "potentization".

1. Covalent Bonds (not applicable here)

2. Non-Covalent Bonds (not applicable here)

3. Intermolecular forces (not applicable here)

4. Potential Energy (applicable here)

5. Potentiality(PE dynamics) (gibberish)
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 02:03 PM   #212
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 20,126
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
We are just trying to do something for science, something for good to all and just for our curicity.
A lie, Kumar, because there is no "we".
The other posters in the thread are trying to talk about science.
You are denying science by making up ignorant fantasies.
You are showing no curiosity otherwise you would have learned about potential energy in the 14 years since you first posted about it !
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 02:14 PM   #213
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 20,126
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I had gíven one link abóut a study n other link for all studies available on pubmed on homeopathy. You can find many studies in favour of homeopathy. However you can also fínd many studies not in favour of homeopathy
Which is why linking to that 1 study is basically lying, Kumar. You selected a study that fitted your own denial of science, e.g. that having no active ingredients means homeopathy cannot work. And then did almost a Google search for other studies.

An honest person would have linked to an overview of homeopathy
Quote:
Homeopathy is a system of alternative medicine created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann, based on his doctrine of like cures like (similia similibus curentur), a claim that a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people would cure similar symptoms in sick people.[1] Homeopathy is a pseudoscience – a belief that is incorrectly presented as scientific. Homeopathic preparations are not effective for treating any condition;[2][3][4][5] large-scale studies have found homeopathy to be no more effective than a placebo, indicating that any positive effects that follow treatment are only due to the placebo effect, normal recovery from illness, or regression toward the mean.[6][7][8]
My emphasis added.
For example: A systematic review of systematic reviews of homeopathy by Edzard Ernst (a specialist in the study of complementary and alternative medicine rejects homeopathy!).

Last edited by Reality Check; 6th September 2017 at 02:15 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 08:30 PM   #214
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
So people carry out systematic reviews and meta-analyses, and these show that the apparent effects of homoeopathy are illusory.
This is one sided story. Search with equanimity in a link sent by me.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 08:33 PM   #215
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
What is potentiality?

Hans
Classic basis of PE was potentiality. Like it is maximum potentiality of a pendulum in rest position to move either side.

People couldn't here differentiate between PE and Potentiality(somewhat PR dynamics)
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 08:39 PM   #216
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Thank you for admitting that homeopathy is not science.

Dave

P.S. It's not medicine either.
Science is a common name to better understand something as per nature of that thing. Modern medicine is one healing system, homeopathy other. Science is not the property of either.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 08:42 PM   #217
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Nonsense, you just didn't notice the curvature.

Hans
Can't anything override local gravitational force? We take one glass of water on higher floor, it is against the gravity.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 08:51 PM   #218
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
What is potentiality?

Hans
....2

Should we not judge molecules in following considerations related to it:

1. Covalent Bond

2. Non-Covalent Bonds

3. Intermolecular forces

4. Potential Energy

5. Potentiality

6. Newton's 3rd law of motion

7. Other??(suggest)

I think we just consider molecular interaction partly and unintentionally miss something due to oversight. Some other changes, say potentiality change, also happen along with heat generation. An excercising young person while generate heat but also improve its performance specific to that excercise. I think it is applicable to all interactions.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 09:03 PM   #219
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 20,126
Question Kumar: What is "potentiality" in science

Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Should we not judge molecules in following considerations related to it:
You should answer questions rather than repeating your post and adding irrelevant fantasies (we are not talking about people exercising !).
You list mostly irrelevant well-known scientific terms except for one.
7 September 2017 Kumar: What is "potentiality" in science?
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 09:12 PM   #220
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 20,126
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Modern medicine is one healing system, homeopathy other.
An ignorant statement, Kumar,. You have been shown the evidence that homeopathy
  • is not a system (it is more like a religious belief),
  • does not heal any better than a placebo.
  • is not science.
in this forum and even in this thread,
Modern medicine has the properties of science. It applies the known to work scientific laws. It applies the scientific method.

Last edited by Reality Check; 6th September 2017 at 09:13 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 09:22 PM   #221
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 20,126
Thumbs down Kumar: Persists with the fantasy that a thrown ball does not fall

Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Can't anything override local gravitational force? We take one glass of water on higher floor, it is against the gravity.
Of course a force can overcome the force of gravity.
But a delusion that a glass of water being taken upstairs is a ball thrown against a wall is not one of those forces !
7 September 2017 Kumar: Persists with the fantasy that a ball thrown horizontally against a wall returns at the same height.

This is physically impossible as any high school student can tell you. Gravity pulls the ball downward as soon as it leaves your hand. It hits the wall below the height that you threw it and falls further down as it returns.

But we are apes! We want to catch that ball. We instinctively and generally throw it so that it has an upward path and so returns to our hand at the same level.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 10:36 PM   #222
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 29,102
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
This is one sided story. Search with equanimity in a link sent by me.

Systematic reviews look at all the evidence. The "one sided story" is the one that you are trying to tell.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 10:59 PM   #223
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Systematic reviews look at all the evidence. The "one sided story" is the one that you are trying to tell.
Read the pubmed links I provided about studies on homeopathy. Also estimate practical/clinical observations and live evidences. Give report with equanimity(equally both sided) after accounting nature of healing agents. If you can't, do not overreact in your preception or self interests, pls.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2017, 11:41 PM   #224
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 29,102
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Read the pubmed links I provided about studies on homeopathy.

Kumar, you transparently cherry-pick studies that you regard as positive. They demonstrate nothing beyond your own bias.

Quote:
Also estimate practical/clinical observations and live evidences.

They are contradicted by more reliable evidence.

Quote:
Give report with equanimity(equally both sided)...

That is what systematic reviews do, and that is why you want to disregard their results.

Quote:
...after accounting nature of healing agents.

As us well established, the nature of the "healing agents" used in homoeopathy is that they don't heal.

Quote:
If you can't, do not overreact in your preception or self interests, pls.

What "self interests"? Don't project your own motivations onto others.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 12:28 AM   #225
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
No.That is your home agenda. Many studies outcomes are in favour of homeopathy depending on homeopathic home agenda. Grill with equanimity otherwise accept you are not A&F alike science. Over and above clinical significance n outcomes are well observed. It is simply miss or weakness of science that they could not yet be able to evaluate it in A&F because it itself in not A&F. An yet weaker person has no right to give lecture on strength. To be right, try to do, as I am doing. No one can force you either to accept or reject. It is just in your hand.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 12:35 AM   #226
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,384
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
No.That is your home agenda. Many studies outcomes are in favour of homeopathy depending on homeopathic home agenda. Grill with equanimity otherwise accept you are not A&F alike science. Over and above clinical significance n outcomes are well observed. It is simply miss or weakness of science that they could not yet be able to evaluate it in A&F because it itself in not A&F. An yet weaker person has no right to give lecture on strength. To be right, try to do, as I am doing. No one can force you either to accept or reject. It is just in your hand.
Must... Not... Respond....

...

...
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 12:43 AM   #227
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 24,370
We're talking to someone who clearly believes he's entitled to his own separate reality. At this point, I think it may be instructive to introduce the concept of the Irreducible Delusion, as described by R. Mackey for the specific case of conspiracy theorists, but which I think is applicable to other areas of pseudoscience.

From a post in the thread linked, the following steps are recommended.

Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
The author outlines the following recommended steps to address this issue:

1. If debate is proceeding badly, attempt to determine whether an Irreducible Delusion is the cause.
In preceding sections, the author presented recognition features of the Irreducible Delusion. Even though conspiracy theories, in particular, tend to inflate upon questioning, usually the Irreducible Delusion is omnipresent as a factor or motivation no matter how much the theory inflates, and thus it can be isolated deductively.

It is also important to keep in mind that all people, and not just the Truth Movement, may harbor Irreducible Delusions. One should attempt to verify one’s own position, both against known fact and other opinions, if a deadlock occurs.
2. If Irreducible Delusion is indicated, attempt to define and classify the delusion in as simple terms as possible.
Without exception to date, examples of Irreducible Delusion can be expressed as simple, single-sentence, unambiguous statements of belief. While it may take considerable time to reach this state, once so formulated, the debate is over. If desired, one may simply confront the claimant with the belief thereafter, rather than address its many consequences.
3. After isolating an Irreducible Delusion, re-evaluate your goals and act accordingly.
The Irreducible Delusion is, fundamentally, a rejection of logic. Upon isolating and confirming the belief, no further logical debate is likely to occur, and the likelihood of educating the incorrect party through yet more argumentation is nearly zero. Others are thereafter advised to discontinue, to remind the claimant of their underlying error, or to move to another topic.
It seems quite clear that Kumar possesses an Irreducible Delusion, and that it is, put in the simplest possible terms, that homeopathy is effective. No argument will have any effect on this, nor will any level of instruction in science; all that can be done is highlight it. So I'm at the "Re-evaluate your goals and act accordingly" stage.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 01:09 AM   #228
GlennB
In search of pi(e)
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 20,724
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
We're talking to someone who clearly believes he's entitled to his own separate reality. At this point, I think it may be instructive to introduce the concept of the Irreducible Delusion, as described by R. Mackey for the specific case of conspiracy theorists, but which I think is applicable to other areas of pseudoscience.

From a post in the thread linked, the following steps are recommended.

...

It seems quite clear that Kumar possesses an Irreducible Delusion, and that it is, put in the simplest possible terms, that homeopathy is effective. No argument will have any effect on this, nor will any level of instruction in science; all that can be done is highlight it. So I'm at the "Re-evaluate your goals and act accordingly" stage.

Dave
Ah yes, I remember it. Kumar's case is interesting though, as he's invoking scientific concepts that seem to be totally unrelated to homeopathy and proceeding to butcher them (static electricity, the trajectory of a ball, etc etc) in order to support his belief.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 01:22 AM   #229
fagin
Illuminator
 
fagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 4,362
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
.....


As us well established, the nature of the "healing agents" used in homoeopathy is that they don't healexist.




.....
FTFY
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
fagin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 01:39 AM   #230
BillC
Bazooka Joe
 
BillC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,362
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It seems quite clear that Kumar possesses an Irreducible Delusion, and that it is, put in the simplest possible terms, that homeopathy is effective. No argument will have any effect on this, nor will any level of instruction in science; all that can be done is highlight it. So I'm at the "Re-evaluate your goals and act accordingly" stage.
This, though it seems that we are all suffering from an addiction to engaging on scientific matters with Kumar.
__________________
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams
"If homeopathy works, then obviously the less you use it, the stronger it gets. So the best way to apply homeopathy is to not use it at all." - Phil Plait
BillC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 01:55 AM   #231
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It seems quite clear that Kumar possesses an Irreducible Delusion, and that it is, put in the simplest possible terms, that homeopathy is effective. No argument will have any effect on this, nor will any level of instruction in science; all that can be done is highlight it. So I'm at the "Re-evaluate your goals and act accordingly" stage.

Dave
I am not just saying yes or no but also discussing to try to clear a mass existing system. Yes nothing can cause me disrespect any understanding having mass presence including modern understandings. Everything has its own destiny depending on time and conditions or environment. On yet unclear understandings and on mass existing systems, we can be bit sceptic by considering its real effects, its side effects, its economical effects and other pros & cons but should not disrespect it till either it is clear or die in itself. Even many todaday's statical well diciplined observations fail on practical applications that too with serious fatal side affects eg DBI. To homeopathy, we can just say "yet fully unclear in science but existing in mass and well distributed people since long back with least side effects".
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 01:57 AM   #232
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by BillC View Post
This, though it seems that we are all suffering from an addiction to engaging on scientific matters with Kumar.
Nothing can be there in nothing but can be there in something which attract and make addictive to many many people here or elsewhere.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 01:59 AM   #233
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Ah yes, I remember it. Kumar's case is interesting though, as he's invoking scientific concepts that seem to be totally unrelated to homeopathy and proceeding to butcher them (static electricity, the trajectory of a ball, etc etc) in order to support his belief.
Well said. This suggest my non biased dynamism. We have to search in jungles(wildly) if things are not traceble in cities.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 02:26 AM   #234
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 24,370
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I am not just saying yes or no but also discussing to try to clear a mass existing system. Yes nothing can cause me disrespect any understanding having mass presence including modern understandings. Everything has its own destiny depending on time and conditions or environment. On yet unclear understandings and on mass existing systems, we can be bit sceptic by considering its real effects, its side effects, its economical effects and other pros & cons but should not disrespect it till either it is clear or die in itself. Even many todaday's statical well diciplined observations fail on practical applications that too with serious fatal side affects eg DBI. To homeopathy, we can just say "yet fully unclear in science but existing in mass and well distributed people since long back with least side effects".
And we're back to the Yes lyrics.

Homeopathy has been studied and found to have no effect, which is unsurprising because there is no possible mechanism by which it can have any effect. That's all there is to say, and there's nothing left to do in this or any other Kumar thread but to repeat it.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 02:31 AM   #235
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
And we're back to the Yes lyrics.

Homeopathy has been studied and found to have no effect, which is unsurprising because there is no possible mechanism by which it can have any effect. That's all there is to say, and there's nothing left to do in this or any other Kumar thread but to repeat it.

Dave
Sorry, whatever left is whatever I had tried to say and will say.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 02:45 AM   #236
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
....2

Heat is not the only product of force applied but some other changes can also happen to fully justify the applied force. On passing current through a wire, though it can heat it but also does other works.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 03:15 AM   #237
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
How it is relevant:

Quote:
In thermodynamics, heat is often contrasted with work: heat applies to individual particles (such as atoms or molecules), work applies to objects (or a system as a whole). Heat involves stochastic (or random) motion equally distributed among all degrees of freedom, while work is directional, confined to one or more specific degrees of freedom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat
Now I become doubtful, whether heat is a product or energy conversion to action/work done? How heat can actually be created/coverted from other energy? Whether it simply is product of friction and of exothermic chemical reactions? I am not talking about its tansmission/flow/trasfer from one source to other.

If so, how force applied or work done for preparing the remedies will be accounted?
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.

Last edited by Kumar; 7th September 2017 at 03:18 AM. Reason: to add
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 03:37 AM   #238
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,989
Why ask questions? You don't care about the real answer anyway. You just want to twist it until it looks like it agrees with you. You're using science like magic... Pretending that as long as you use the right words, you can make anything true.
Porpoise of Life is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 03:39 AM   #239
fagin
Illuminator
 
fagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 4,362
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
How it is relevant:



Now I become doubtful, whether heat is a product or energy conversion to action/work done? How heat can actually be created/coverted from other energy? Whether it simply is product of friction and of exothermic chemical reactions? I am not talking about its tansmission/flow/trasfer from one source to other.

If so, how force applied or work done for preparing the remedies will be accounted?
Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I think you should go away and do a basic primary school science course.
Then maybe a high school science course.

I doubt you'll make any more sense, but it might give the rest of us time to recover.
Kumar, no one can answer your random questions without you actually understanding what you are asking. Or at least having a vague idea.

And homeopathy is still bunk.
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
fagin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2017, 04:05 AM   #240
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,223
Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Kumar, no one can answer your random questions without you actually understanding what you are asking. Or at least having a vague idea.

And homeopathy is still bunk.
It is upto them. It is becoming apprentice to me, some relevant science should be possible by these discussions. Otherwise if many competent posters will say to me in A&F, I shall respect it blindly.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:23 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.