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Old 8th September 2017, 05:36 AM   #281
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However many times you try and 'rephrase' 'paraphrase', or just generally 'incoherophrase' (I made that one up) things, homeopathy remains bunk.
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Old 8th September 2017, 12:58 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
That is what we have to find. May come by wild search or by chance like apple falling logic..

Such energy may only come either from applied energy or work done for remedy prepration or by some chemical or structural modification. It appear certain disppited heat during this process do not fully convert input energies.
Kumar, WHAT KIND OF ENERGY are you suggesting might transfer complex information from the MT (mother tincture, that is the original substance for making a remedy, for those who don't know) all through the over thirty process steps and to the user? You are the one who wants to prove something, so it's your task.

Quote:
Moreover, if you have read many types indicated by me previously(can be some more) related to molecular interactions and one more of developing potentiality due to coming on specific natural position, probably we all may find some justification(not only me). Best wishes for it.
No. None of that makes sense. Sorry.

Hans
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Old 8th September 2017, 09:33 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
We cannot say it is only converted to heat. For instance, some is converted to noise.

But that is what we have been discussing: What kind of energy could it be?

Such energy must have at least three properties:

1) It must be able to persist through all the many process steps that a homeopathic remedy goes through.

2) It must be able to accurately reflect the complex properties of the MT.

3) It must somehow be able to transfer that information to the human body.

... And of course, such information must somehow have relevance for curing diseases, but that is another topic.

I don't know of any such energy form, and you, Kumar, have certainly not been able to suggest any, either.

Perhaps you should start by suggesting where such energy might come from, because it can't come from the processing. Simple logic will tell you that if it comes from the processing, it will reflect properties of the processing, and not the MT. In other words, it has to be there from the start.

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Repharasing reply, pls ignore others.
Since your above expressions are quite reasonable, nothing to say much but just to accept. Simply, in view of its clinical mass presence in homéopathic community, least side effect angle and MT molecules presént in other than sub-atomic remedies and some positives stàtical significance. homeopathy déserve to be better understood in science so that it can benefit to all esp to science. Even in molecular or sub móleculae based remedied, dose dependancy will also needed to be better understood. Ín view of its different nature, predicted value and other modalities on any study can be kept accordingly. Lastly, since every system has its own limitations, pros n cons, completent healer and patients should keep these in mind for treatments.
Ín view of many complexities involved in understanding sub molecular remedies, these can only be checked by proper sutudies.
Let me clear these, PE, where no outside energy is requied. PE dynamic, or potential, when out side energy will be required. Specific Natural position, relative to specific state n condition when there is no applied energy eg pendulum at rest. Hope now things are settled in harmony. Thanks.
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Old 8th September 2017, 11:34 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Repharasing reply, pls ignore others.
Since your above expressions are quite reasonable, nothing to say much but just to accept. Simply, in view of its clinical mass presence in homéopathic community, least side effect angle and MT molecules presént in other than sub-atomic remedies and some positives stàtical significance. homeopathy déserve to be better understood in science so that it can benefit to all esp to science. Even in molecular or sub móleculae based remedied, dose dependancy will also needed to be better understood. Ín view of its different nature, predicted value and other modalities on any study can be kept accordingly. Lastly, since every system has its own limitations, pros n cons, completent healer and patients should keep these in mind for treatments.
Ín view of many complexities involved in understanding sub molecular remedies, these can only be checked by proper sutudies.

Proper studies show that homoeopathy doesn't work. You are trying to substitute evidence that is more susceptible to bias.

Quote:
Let me clear these, PE, where no outside energy is requied. PE dynamic, or potential, when out side energy will be required.

Potential potential energy? Nonsense.

Quote:
Specific Natural position, relative to specific state n condition when there is no applied energy eg pendulum at rest.

There is no such thing as a "specific natural position". All positions are equally natural. Things will come to rest at their lowest energy, or at a local minimum, but that doesn't preserve any information. If you are shown a pendulum that has come to rest, there is nothing about it that will tell you what originally put it in motion, or even how much potential energy it had at maximum.

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Hope now things are settled in harmony. Thanks.

You haven't even started started to address Hans posted.
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Old 9th September 2017, 12:09 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Proper studies show that homoeopathy doesn't work. You are trying to substitute evidence that is more susceptible to bias.




Potential potential energy? Nonsense.




There is no such thing as a "specific natural position". All positions are equally natural. Things will come to rest at their lowest energy, or at a local minimum, but that doesn't preserve any information. If you are shown a pendulum that has come to rest, there is nothing about it that will tell you what originally put it in motion, or even how much potential energy it had at maximum.




You haven't even started started to address Hans posted.
Ok. Things are over from my side. You can explore anything if interested. Tks.
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Old 9th September 2017, 12:14 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Ok. Things are over from my side. You can explore anything if interested. Tks.
Is this an acceptance that you are wrong?
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Old 9th September 2017, 12:38 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Repharasing reply, pls ignore others.
Since your above expressions are quite reasonable, nothing to say much but just to accept.
OK, that is actually constructive.

Quote:
Simply, in view of its clinical mass presence in homéopathic community, least side effect angle and MT molecules presént in other than sub-atomic remedies and some positives stàtical significance. homeopathy déserve to be better understood in science so that it can benefit to all esp to science.
I will explain why your faith in clinical mass experience is unfounded, but it is a long post and might merit a separate topic. I have no time for that now, but perhaps in a day or two.


Quote:
Even in molecular or sub móleculae based remedied, dose dependancy will also needed to be better understood. Ín view of its different nature, predicted value and other modalities on any study can be kept accordingly. Lastly, since every system has its own limitations, pros n cons, completent healer and patients should keep these in mind for treatments.
Mmm, do you realize you are not really actually saying anything there? Just repeating loose terminology you have already beaten to death?

Quote:
Ín view of many complexities involved in understanding sub molecular remedies, these can only be checked by proper sutudies.
But what ARE the complexities? To me it is very simple: There is nothing there.

Quote:
Let me clear these, PE, where no outside energy is requied. PE dynamic, or potential, when out side energy will be required. Specific Natural position, relative to specific state n condition when there is no applied energy eg pendulum at rest. Hope now things are settled in harmony. Thanks.
More .... nothing, really.

Kumar, have you heard of "black box analysis"? It is used both in science and engineering. If a process/object/concept seems to elude direct analysis, another approach is to look at it as a "black box"; in other words: What goes in (if anything) and what comes out (if anything)?

Why don't you try this: Imagine I give you a bottle of homeopathic remedy. It is a small brown glass bottle, with a plastic stopper. Inside, you can see (through the glass) a number of small white tablets. There is no label (I removed the label ).

The black box is defined as the remedy function: Not how the remedy was made, nor how it functions, but what it does. That is what you must find out.

So you may open the bottle and you may analyze both the bottle and the pills to your heart's content. As a paper exercise, what will you do? How would you approach this task, if you had access to whatever facilities you needed?

Hans
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Old 9th September 2017, 12:48 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Is this an acceptance that you are wrong?
No it is (probably) a thread abandonment by him. Stand by for the next.
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:00 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Is this an acceptance that you are wrong?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post11954015
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:08 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Kumar, have you heard of "black box analysis"? It is used both in science and engineering. If a process/object/concept seems to elude direct analysis, another approach is to look at it as a "black box"; in other words: What goes in (if anything) and what comes out (if anything)?

Why don't you try this: Imagine I give you a bottle of homeopathic remedy. It is a small brown glass bottle, with a plastic stopper. Inside, you can see (through the glass) a number of small white tablets. There is no label (I removed the label ).

The black box is defined as the remedy function: Not how the remedy was made, nor how it functions, but what it does. That is what you must find out.

So you may open the bottle and you may analyze both the bottle and the pills to your heart's content. As a paper exercise, what will you do? How would you approach this task, if you had access to whatever facilities you needed?

Hans

I've tried suggesting that he tests the remedies before, when he was going on about adsorption. His response was to suggest filling a bottle with syrup, emptying and rinsing the bottle, and them smelling it to see if we can still smell the syrup.
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:15 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Originally Posted by Kumar
Repharasing reply, pls ignore others.
Since your above expressions are quite reasonable, nothing to say much but just to accept.

OK, that is actually constructive.

That depends on what he means by "accept". Experience suggests that he means "ignore".
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:15 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Is this an acceptance that you are wrong?
Whatever way you like to interpret.
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:30 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
OK, that is actually constructive.
Thanks.



Quote:
I will explain why your faith in clinical mass experience is unfounded, but it is a long post and might merit a separate topic. I have no time for that now, but perhaps in a day or two.
Ok, I shall wait.



Quote:
Mmm, do you realize you are not really actually saying anything there? Just repeating loose terminology you have already beaten to death?
Yes but fact will remain fact. All things to be resolved as per your that good post.



Quote:
But what ARE the complexities? To me it is very simple: There is nothing there.



More .... nothing, really.
Ok, this part we can keep in latency.

Quote:
Kumar, have you heard of "black box analysis"? It is used both in science and engineering. If a process/object/concept seems to elude direct analysis, another approach is to look at it as a "black box"; in other words: What goes in (if anything) and what comes out (if anything)?

Why don't you try this: Imagine I give you a bottle of homeopathic remedy. It is a small brown glass bottle, with a plastic stopper. Inside, you can see (through the glass) a number of small white tablets. There is no label (I removed the label ).

The black box is defined as the remedy function: Not how the remedy was made, nor how it functions, but what it does. That is what you must find out.

So you may open the bottle and you may analyze both the bottle and the pills to your heart's content. As a paper exercise, what will you do? How would you approach this task, if you had access to whatever facilities you needed?

Hans
I think, it can only be judged by clinical observations by competent homeopaths. Others needing data can note the outcomes at homeopaths clinics by direct interview and observing patients. This practical approach I had suggested many times. Actually, this data can also be prepared and presented by homeopathic community but why not yet, it is bit surprising. Probably they feel, either hijecking or who will believe.
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:41 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I've tried suggesting that he tests the remedies before, when he was going on about adsorption. His response was to suggest filling a bottle with syrup, emptying and rinsing the bottle, and them smelling it to see if we can still smell the syrup.
That specific good smelling syrup bottle( Rooh Afza) had only gave me idea of 'adsorption'. Smell didn't gone even after more than 100 rinsing and refilling with clean water for many months.It is also a science term. Quite clear, No need of its repeatition. It can very well suggest, if same bottle is used, say after 8-10C, molecules can be passed to next potencies even beyond 12C. Hence for potencies below 12C and all potencies prepared in this way, molecular presence of MT should not be an issue.
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:42 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
That depends on what he means by "accept". Experience suggests that he means "ignore".
Newton's 3rd law. I can't change it(but can modify somewhat).
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:54 AM   #296
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No, you can't.
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:54 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes but fact will remain fact.

The facts are not in your side; all you have is conjecture (and incoherent conjecture at that).
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:56 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by BillC View Post
No it is (probably) a thread abandonment by him. Stand by for the next.
I am also not yet A&F. Change status as per new understandings.
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:57 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I think, it can only be judged by clinical observations by competent homeopaths. Others needing data can note the outcomes at homeopaths clinics by direct interview and observing patients. This practical approach I had suggested many times. Actually, this data can also be prepared and presented by homeopathic community but why not yet, it is bit surprising. Probably they feel, either hijecking or who will believe.

And now you're back to conspiracy theories, special pleading and ignoring the best evidence.
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Old 9th September 2017, 01:58 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
The facts are not in your side; all you have is conjecture (and incoherent conjecture at that).
Fact will remain fact. It is not one/any sided but all sided.
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Old 9th September 2017, 02:02 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Fact will remain fact.

And conjecture will remain conjecture, unless you can back it up with evidence.

Quote:
It is not one/any sided but all sided.

You can only conclude that homoeopathy works if you only consider one side of the evidence.
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Old 9th September 2017, 02:21 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
And conjecture will remain conjecture, unless you can back it up with evidence.




You can only conclude that homoeopathy works if you only consider one side of the evidence.
Fight or flight, rest and digest, all should work normally as per the need of the stiuation. Only fight is not good and is a big abnormality.
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Old 9th September 2017, 03:07 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Fight or flight, rest and digest, all should work normally as per the need of the stiuation. Only fight is not good and is a big abnormality.

Irrelevant nonsense.
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Old 9th September 2017, 08:46 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I think, it can only be judged by clinical observations by competent homeopaths. Others needing data can note the outcomes at homeopaths clinics by direct interview and observing patients. This practical approach I had suggested many times. Actually, this data can also be prepared and presented by homeopathic community but why not yet, it is bit surprising. Probably they feel, either hijecking or who will believe.

No, when you gamble in Las Vegas you don't get to use your own dice. You want the approval of science but don't dare submit to scientific testing.

ETA: Strange, another eruption of near-perfect English.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:17 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by ferd burfle View Post
No, when you gamble in Las Vegas you don't get to use your own dice. You want the approval of science but don't dare submit to scientific testing.

ETA: Strange, another eruption of near-perfect English.
Also absent the random accents on vowels. It's almost as if...
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:52 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Also absent the random accents on vowels. It's almost as if...

Typing "n" for "and" is another recent addition to his repertoire.
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Old 9th September 2017, 10:21 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Whatever way you like to interpret.
Oh good.

Everyone, Kumar accepts that he is wrong.
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Old 9th September 2017, 10:40 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Oh good.

Everyone, Kumar accepts that he is wrong.

No, that should be, "everyone except Kumar accepts that he is wrong."
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Old 9th September 2017, 08:15 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Irrelevant nonsense.
Yes,Irrelevant nonsense here were in majority. Only very few were relevant and senseful.
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Old 9th September 2017, 08:27 PM   #310
sackett
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Kumar, shouldn't you ask your imam about the islamic stance on homeopathy? "Stan" countries are unsafe places for heretics.

Elsewhere, you've repeated Hindu stuff as if you believed it. Seriously, be careful. In Pak, being labelled a dung-smeared idolator (as Pakis charitably refer to cap-wallahs) can be VERY hazardous to your health.

And I know much you value your health.
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Last edited by sackett; 9th September 2017 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 9th September 2017, 08:37 PM   #311
Kumar
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Kumar, shouldn't you ask your imam about the islamic stance on homeopathy? "Stan" countries are unsafe places for heretics.

Elsewhere, you've repeated Hindu stuff as if you believed it. Seriously, be careful. In Pak, being labelled a dung-smeared idolator (as Pakis charitably refer to cap-wallahs) can be VERY hazardous to your health.

And I know much you value your health.
Irrelevant.
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Old 9th September 2017, 10:48 PM   #312
Kumar
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Oh good.

Everyone, Kumar accepts that he is wrong.
NO. Don't see goodness as badness.

I shall give two examples, one about potentisation effect(PE-dynamic) just now and 2nd about prominience of practical significance over statical significance bit later:

1. Potentisation Effect(any way)

A healthy person living on plains, start climbing on a mountain. He gain more and more PE as he climb up and get maximum on reaching to peak. This PE will be required for his coming back to his origional/natural position. But while climbing, he will be more and more tires, so his immediate climbing potential will be go on decreasing. Just opposite when he is coming back to plain. On plains his PE will be minimum but his Potential to climb again will be maximum.

But due to all this excercise done, his overall potential to climb again and performbetter will improve due to practice and experiance and this is the potentisation effect.

This is quite complex physiological and psychological process to understand in science with A&F but in practical observations it does happen in majority of cases.

This is one way to explain "potentisation effect".
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Old 9th September 2017, 11:22 PM   #313
Porpoise of Life
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Still wrong.
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Old 9th September 2017, 11:32 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Still wrong.

I would have said not even wrong.
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Old 10th September 2017, 12:03 AM   #315
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And homeopathy is still bunk.
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Old 10th September 2017, 12:53 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
NO. Don't see goodness as badness.

I shall give two examples, one about potentisation effect(PE-dynamic) just now and 2nd about prominience of practical significance over statical significance bit later:

1. Potentisation Effect(any way)

A healthy person living on plains, start climbing on a mountain. He gain more and more PE as he climb up and get maximum on reaching to peak. This PE will be required for his coming back to his origional/natural position.

Only if he's going to return there by falling off the mountain. And there is nothing more natural about his "origional" position than about his position at the top of the mountain. They are both places where he can be.

Quote:
But while climbing, he will be more and more tires, so his immediate climbing potential will be go on decreasing. Just opposite when he is coming back to plain. On plains his PE will be minimum but his Potential to climb again will be maximum.

You are confusing the English word "potential" and the expression "potential energy", which has a specific technical meaning which is not the same as the same as "potential".

Quote:
But due to all this excercise done, his overall potential to climb again and performbetter will improve due to practice and experiance and this is the potentisation effect.

This is quite complex physiological and psychological process to understand in science with A&F but in practical observations it does happen in majority of cases.

This is one way to explain "potentisation effect".

No, banging a bottle against a Bible does not train the water in it to cure diseases.
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Old 10th September 2017, 01:02 AM   #317
Kumar
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2. Practical significance over Statical significance

Let me try to indicate it with following story:

A child living very happily and healthfully with his parents. Later he start learning science and become very intelligent in it. His main preception become skeptical and not to trust without evidence & statical significance. Then he felt, like charity should start from home, he asked has parents, I can not trust you unless you provide me DNA report(Statical Significance). Felt him bit deviated, Shocked parents tried to advice him, It is not necessary, we love and nurse you so much(Practical significance). HOW? Child remained quite stub-born. In anger, his parents shouted, if you don't believe us and our love and nurshing, Get out from house permanentaly. In deviated mind and stubborness he left the home should be wondering aimlessly in very band condition. So like it.

Yes there can be some exceptions, pros & cons to his demands and his demand was scientific/statical demand but still he lost. So just go......
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Old 10th September 2017, 01:40 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
2. Practical significance over Statical significance

Let me try to indicate it with following story:

A child living very happily and healthfully with his parents. Later he start learning science and become very intelligent in it. His main preception become skeptical and not to trust without evidence & statical significance. Then he felt, like charity should start from home, he asked has parents, I can not trust you unless you provide me DNA report(Statical Significance). Felt him bit deviated, Shocked parents tried to advice him, It is not necessary, we love and nurse you so much(Practical significance). HOW? Child remained quite stub-born. In anger, his parents shouted, if you don't believe us and our love and nurshing, Get out from house permanentaly. In deviated mind and stubborness he left the home should be wondering aimlessly in very band condition. So like it.

Yes there can be some exceptions, pros & cons to his demands and his demand was scientific/statical demand but still he lost. So just go......

Are you saying that we shouldn't ask for evidence for homoeopathy because it makes homoeopaths angry?
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Old 10th September 2017, 03:43 AM   #319
BillC
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Kumar, shouldn't you ask your imam about the islamic stance on homeopathy? "Stan" countries are unsafe places for heretics.

Elsewhere, you've repeated Hindu stuff as if you believed it. Seriously, be careful. In Pak, being labelled a dung-smeared idolator (as Pakis charitably refer to cap-wallahs) can be VERY hazardous to your health.

And I know much you value your health.
I think you didn't know it but "Paki" is generally regarded as offensive and not a word that should be used.
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Old 10th September 2017, 03:53 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by BillC View Post
I think you didn't know it but "Paki" is generally regarded as offensive and not a word that should be used.


That's 'generally' as in 'generally in the UK'. When I was a kid it wasn't used as a slur in Scotland but I discovered it was in England. It's not that long ago I had to urgently explain this to my elderly mother, who was mortified that she might have caused offence.
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