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Old 10th September 2017, 04:43 AM   #321
Kumar
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Are you saying that we shouldn't ask for evidence for homoeopathy because it makes homoeopaths angry?
No but when too much practical observàtións are there, eneryone shoúld trust to get. We do trust, even non À&F and side effects.
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Old 10th September 2017, 05:08 AM   #322
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The practical observations are faulty (as is long existing mass established) and cannot be trusted.
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Old 10th September 2017, 05:12 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
No but when too much practical observàtións are there, eneryone shoúld trust to get. We do trust, even non À&F and side effects.

The "practical observàtións" are contradicted by more reliable evidence.

This is how science works: "practical observations" lead to hypotheses; the hypotheses are tested, and either are falsified or survive.

In the case of homoeopathy, the observation is that some people get better after homoeopathic treatment, and the hypothesis is that this is because homoeopathy is an effective treatment for the conditions they were suffering from. This hypothesis has been tested in controlled trials, and the results of these, taken as a whole, have falsified this hypothesis.
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Old 10th September 2017, 06:29 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Are you saying that we shouldn't ask for evidence for homoeopathy because it makes homoeopaths angry?
I think he's just trying to illustrate that the majority of this thread is irrelevant nonsense by joining the majority, while failing to realise that he did so a long time ago.

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Old 10th September 2017, 11:57 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by BillC View Post
I think you didn't know it but "Paki" is generally regarded as offensive and not a word that should be used.
Oh I knew it all right.

But Kumar says it's irrelevant. So I guess it is.
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Old 10th September 2017, 05:23 PM   #326
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Exclamation Kumar: If homeopaths were competent, they would stop being homeopaths

Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I think, it can only be judged by clinical observations by competent homeopaths.....
11 September 2017 Kumar: If homeopaths were competent, they would stop being homeopaths because they would know high school level science!
They would know that their active ingredients have not been shown to cure what they say they cure.
They would know that diluting until there are no active ingredients makes their "remedies" into sugar water or sugar pills.
They would know about the reviews that show that their sugar water or sugar pills are no better then placebos.

11 September 2017 Kumar: An implied delusion that only homeopaths can do "clinical observations" on homeopathy.
There are people called medical researchers, Kumar! They have extensive training on running clinical trials and know how to do this competently. They have done clinical trials. Homeopaths have also done clinical trials. The end result is that homeopathy does not work any better than placebos.

7 September 2017 Kumar: What is "potentiality" in science?
7 September 2017 Kumar: Persists with the fantasy that a ball thrown horizontally against a wall returns at the same height.
8 September 2017 Kumar: Idiotic demand to read many studies on already debunked homeopathy, analyze them and tell him about them!
8 September 2017 Kumar: A lie about systematic reviews of all studies that show homeopathy is no better than placebo.
8 September 2017 Kumar: A lie about heat being relevant to the delusion of homeopathy.
8 September 2017 Kumar: A rather stupid "how force applied or work done for preparing the remedies will be accounted" question.
8 September 2017 Kumar: The science is Absolute & Final delusion pops up yet again.
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Old 10th September 2017, 08:08 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by BillC View Post
The practical observations are faulty (as is long existing mass established) and cannot be trusted.
Faults should be there everywhere untill things become A&F. May it be practical or theoritical.
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Old 10th September 2017, 08:14 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
The "practical observàtións" are contradicted by more reliable evidence.

This is how science works: "practical observations" lead to hypotheses; the hypotheses are tested, and either are falsified or survive.

In the case of homoeopathy, the observation is that some people get better after homoeopathic treatment, and the hypothesis is that this is because homoeopathy is an effective treatment for the conditions they were suffering from. This hypothesis has been tested in controlled trials, and the results of these, taken as a whole, have falsified this hypothesis.
Mass presence, persistence since long and continued growth of anything should also be better evidence of creditability.
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Old 10th September 2017, 11:19 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Mass presence, persistence since long and continued growth of anything should also be better evidence of creditability.

Appeals to popularity and antiquity are not "better evidence of creditability".
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Old 10th September 2017, 11:46 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Mass presence, persistence since long and continued growth of anything should also be better evidence of creditability.

It sounds like you are describing a cancerous tumor.
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Old 11th September 2017, 12:07 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Mass presence, persistence since long and continued growth of anything should also be better evidence of creditability.
That would mean regarding Ganesh, Yahweh, Allah and KutkhWP as potentially real deities. Some people still believe in Zeus too, and he's been very persistent. (we have a small temple to Zeus out in the back garden - it can't hurt and it might save us from a few Zeusian thunderbolts one day.)

Ignorant beliefs can be very popular, Kumar, but the popularity of a theory is no measure of its validity.
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Old 11th September 2017, 12:28 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That would mean regarding Ganesh, Yahweh, Allah and KutkhWP as potentially real deities. Some people still believe in Zeus too, and he's been very persistent. (we have a small temple to Zeus out in the back garden - it can't hurt and it might save us from a few Zeusian thunderbolts one day.)

Ignorant beliefs can be very popular, Kumar, but the popularity of a theory is no measure of its validity.
But people opting it also endorss its effectiveness. Therefore they are repeatedly accepting it and also recommend to their near ones. Its persistence and growth endorss it.
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Old 11th September 2017, 12:29 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
It sounds like you are describing a cancerous tumor.
. But on the POV of cancer cells, it is creditability.
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Old 11th September 2017, 12:33 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Appeals to popularity and antiquity are not "better evidence of creditability".
Since, you don't anticipate and base A&F, you can say so. But it should hold value.
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Old 11th September 2017, 12:34 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
But people opting it also endorss its effectiveness. Therefore they are repeatedly accepting it and also recommend to their near ones. Its persistence and growth endorss it.
The people of Kamchatka endorse their god Kutkh, and pass that belief on to their offspring. Is Kutkh therefore real?

Belief is not enough - homeopathy may be believed by some but it still doesn't work. It takes science to make the judgement, and judgement has been passed. Believe in your god if you want to, but when it comes to vital medical treatment you'll be heading for real medicine, not water or sugar pills.
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Old 11th September 2017, 12:51 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The people of Kamchatka endorse their god Kutkh, and pass that belief on to their offspring. Is Kutkh therefore real?

Belief is not enough - homeopathy may be believed by some but it still doesn't work. It takes science to make the judgement, and judgement has been passed. Believe in your god if you want to, but when it comes to vital medical treatment you'll be heading for real medicine, not water or sugar pills.
We just have to understand, which has more importance and which is ultimate: statical significane/observations or practical clinical significance/observations? Whichever is more important, that will get the trophy.
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Old 11th September 2017, 01:05 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
We just have to understand, which has more importance and which is ultimate: statical significane/observations or practical clinical significance/observations? Whichever is more important, that will get the trophy.
Practical significance is measured by statistical significance. You have no method by which you can demonstrate the former without the latter.

Half a billion Hindus are fervent believers in Ganesh, and have been for thousands of years. This doesn't mean Ganesh actually exists.
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Old 11th September 2017, 01:09 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Since, you don't anticipate and base A&F, you can say so. But it should hold value.

Go back, and read what I wrote about falsified hypotheses.
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Old 11th September 2017, 01:40 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Half a billion Hindus are fervent believers in Ganesh, and have been for thousands of years. This doesn't mean Ganesh actually exists.
It exists as a belief. Rest is yet pending to understand in science.
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Old 11th September 2017, 01:45 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Go back, and read what I wrote about falsified hypotheses.
Best to approach and influence regulating authorities to get it banned in A&F. If you can't, let it exist a legally approved well aceepeted system. Do not influence people from its benefits with least side effects. Best for you.
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Old 11th September 2017, 02:30 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Mass presence, persistence since long and continued growth of anything should also be better evidence of creditability.
Why?
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Old 11th September 2017, 02:35 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
But people opting it also endorss its effectiveness. Therefore they are repeatedly accepting it and also recommend to their near ones. Its persistence and growth endorss it.
Patients also endorsed the practice of blood letting. It was still bad for their health, and this fact ultimately meant the end of blood letting. Homoeopathy does not heal anything, but because it has no obvious side effects, the endorsement of this worthless, and sometimes fraudulent practice can continue among people who do not understand science and the importance of trustworthy evidence.
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Old 11th September 2017, 03:18 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Patients also endorsed the practice of blood letting. It was still bad for their health, and this fact ultimately meant the end of blood letting. Homoeopathy does not heal anything, but because it has no obvious side effects, the endorsement of this worthless, and sometimes fraudulent practice can continue among people who do not understand science and the importance of trustworthy evidence.
I don't know about it but whether it was meant for this purpose?:

[quote]Treatment[edit]Routine treatment in an otherwise-healthy person consists of regularly scheduled phlebotomies (bloodletting or erythrocytapheresis). When first diagnosed, the phlebotomies may be fairly frequent, until iron levels can be brought to within normal range.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_overload

and this one:
Iron Loading and Disease Surveillance
[https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/5/...305.pdf/quote]
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Old 11th September 2017, 03:30 AM   #344
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As usual, no Kumar.

"Bloodletting was based on an ancient system of medicine in which blood and other bodily fluids were regarded as "humours" that had to remain in proper balance to maintain health. It is claimed to have been the most common medical practice performed by surgeons from antiquity until the late 19th century, a span of almost 2,000 years.[1] In Europe the practice continued to be relatively common until the end of the 18th century.[2] The practice has now been abandoned by modern style medicine for all except a few very specific conditions."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodletting

So it was as pointless as homeopathy, which can be useful if you are dehydrated.
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Old 11th September 2017, 03:36 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It exists as a belief. Rest is yet pending to understand in science.
Are you suggesting that a belief in homeopathy is on the same level as a belief in Ganesh?
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Old 11th September 2017, 04:06 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Best to approach and influence regulating authorities to get it banned in A&F. If you can't, let it exist a legally approved well aceepeted system. Do not influence people from its benefits with least side effects.

What benefits?
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Old 11th September 2017, 04:10 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Are you suggesting that a belief in homeopathy is on the same level as a belief in Ganesh?
No, much less.
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Old 11th September 2017, 04:11 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
What benefits?
For which it is existing.
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Old 11th September 2017, 05:31 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
. But on the POV of cancer cells, it is creditability.
True, but by using this analogy yourself, you are now calling homeopathy a cancer.

I think I'd agree with you there, Kumar. Homeopathy is a cancer on humanity and its practice should be wiped out.
Well done.

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Old 11th September 2017, 05:50 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
True, but by using this analogy yourself, you are now calling homeopathy a cancer.

I think I'd agree with you there, Kumar. Homeopathy is a cancer on humanity and it's practice should be wiped out.
Well done.
No.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:35 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
No.
You're absolutely right Kumar. My phone automatically 'corrected' its to it's.
I have edited my post about your excellent observation that homeopathy is like a cancer on the medical world to reflect your kind warning about my spelling.
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:05 AM   #352
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Wait a minute. Do you mean -- can you possibly mean -- that Ganesha doesn't exist?

Oh! To whom shall I pray for money & good luck & success & stuff?

Buncha old meanies.
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:45 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
For which it is existing.

The homoeopaths' wallets?
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:02 AM   #354
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[quote=Kumar;11991070]I don't know about it but whether it was meant for this purpose?:

Quote:
Treatment[edit]Routine treatment in an otherwise-healthy person consists of regularly scheduled phlebotomies (bloodletting or erythrocytapheresis). When first diagnosed, the phlebotomies may be fairly frequent, until iron levels can be brought to within normal range.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_overload

and this one:
Iron Loading and Disease Surveillance
[https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/5/...305.pdf/quote]
Well, you are right. Bloodletting actually has a purpose for one special (and rather unusual) condition. The point, as you know, is that it was used for everything, even anemia.

Since you know exactly what the point was, that kind of posts is pure trolling.

Hans
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:09 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
We just have to understand, which has more importance and which is ultimate: statical significane/observations or practical clinical significance/observations? Whichever is more important, that will get the trophy.
Practical clinical observation is far from good enough, even when made by educated physicians. Obviously, it gets worse when the observers don't have any medical training, like the case typically is with homeopaths.

There are numerous examples of established clinical practices that have turned out to be inefficient, some even harmful, when properly tested.

Hans
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:23 AM   #356
Kumar
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[quote=MRC_Hans;11991347]
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I don't know about it but whether it was meant for this purpose?:



Well, you are right. Bloodletting actually has a purpose for one special (and rather unusual) condition. The point, as you know, is that it was used for everything, even anemia.

Since you know exactly what the point was, that kind of posts is pure trolling.

Hans
If you can read 2nd link provided by me, you may also notice some other reasoning?
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:27 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
If you can read 2nd link provided by me, you may also notice some other reasoning?
It's giving a 404 error. Is this some kind of homeopathic reasoning, where there used to be a line of argument but it's infinitely stronger now that it doesn't exist any more?

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Old 11th September 2017, 09:27 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Practical clinical observation is far from good enough, even when made by educated physicians. Obviously, it gets worse when the observers don't have any medical training, like the case typically is with homeopaths.

There are numerous examples of established clinical practices that have turned out to be inefficient, some even harmful, when properly tested.

Hans
Homeopaths now has proper medical training? Just at par to modern med system except difference in durgs.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:56 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Homeopaths now has proper medical training?

No. As you have probably noticed, the qualifications are not accepted outside India.
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Old 11th September 2017, 10:01 AM   #360
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Durgs, Kumar? Oh my goodness damn, that is just like saying DURGA!

She is very impartant Hindu goddess. Be careful, Pakistan is not welcome place for idolatry of female gods.

Homeopathy, well okeh, just keep bit bribes coming by police magistrate. But you knewing this already!
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