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Old 11th September 2017, 07:37 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Except it doesn't.
Except it doesn't what? Cost money?
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:40 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm sure you can back this up with hard data.

Oh, who am I kidding? Of course you can't.
Well who does it help exactly?

DACA is what conservatards have been bitching about since day one! You can't recall the old lie conservatards spew about "Get rid of the criminals and keep the good ones" as a compromise?

Well, that's out the window, isn't it? DACA was specifically designed to address that very thing. You cannot be a criminal and in DACA.

Who does ending DACA help?
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:42 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Praktik View Post
This doesnt change fact supporters of the policy change believe it will help
Believe it'll help what?
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:42 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Except it doesn't what? Cost money?
Yes, it helps the budget having tax payers instead of expensive deportation proceedings for example. Ending it costs far more than continuing it.
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:43 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Except it doesn't. But never let facts get in the way, that is the mark of a true conservative after all.
Wait. This is about a political choice for the Republican candidate. The Republican Party of today has very little to do with "true comservativ[ism]"; it's run away from it for decades.
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:44 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Well who does it help exactly?

DACA is what conservatards have been bitching about since day one! You can't recall the old lie conservatards spew about "Get rid of the criminals and keep the good ones" as a compromise?

Well, that's out the window, isn't it? DACA was specifically designed to address that very thing. You cannot be a criminal and in DACA.

Who does ending DACA help?
White nationalists. The core of the republican party.
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:49 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Believe it'll help what?
Jeff Sessions will tell you im sure if you ask

This isn't about True or False

Its about What People Believe, which is not guaranteed to have any truth value.
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:54 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Well who does it help exactly?
Low-skill workers who are citizens.

Quote:
DACA is what conservatards have been bitching about since day one! You can't recall the old lie conservatards spew about "Get rid of the criminals and keep the good ones" as a compromise?
And here we see the mark of a true serious thinker, interested only in serious discussion and debate.

But since I'm better than you, I'll do what you won't, and actually discuss this rationally and without name calling. First off, "Republican" is not synonymous with "conservative". Second, and more importantly, many Republicans want a lot of immigration, including illegal immigration, because it expands the pool of low-skill labor, making it even cheaper. That favors big businesses which use that labor, but it's obviously detrimental to the existing pool of low-skill labor.

Quote:
Well, that's out the window, isn't it? DACA was specifically designed to address that very thing. You cannot be a criminal and in DACA.
Sure you can. We've seen that provision undermined on a local level, where sentencing has been changed specifically to avoid tripping that DACA provision, and we see that in draft legislation at the federal level for its proposed replacement.

But even if that weren't the case, even if every DACA recipient was 100% law abiding, that still wouldn't change the effects it has on labor.

Quote:
Who does ending DACA help?
See above.
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:56 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Low-skill workers who are citizens.
To hold your to your own standards:
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm sure you can back this up with hard data.

Oh, who am I kidding? Of course you can't.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:00 AM   #90
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It depends on who they are and why they voted for him. Nowadays, it's those who consciously continue to distort reality to accommodate the very real dangers he represents, and the harms already done, whom I find unforgivable. Doubling down on Trump today is an act of incomprehensible irresponsibility, or conceivably malevolent intent. The arguments about his now being a useful idiot, or things to that effect, merely celebrate unintended consequences, and are therefore an act of crowing without merit that still manages to ignore Trump's demonstrable volatility, a grave danger for a man holding such office and power.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:09 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
It depends on who they are and why they voted for him. Nowadays, it's those who consciously continue to distort reality to accommodate the very real dangers he represents, and the harms already done, whom I find unforgivable. Doubling down on Trump today is an act of incomprehensible irresponsibility, or conceivably malevolent intent.
I believe there is a third option: prisoners of belief may be motivated, through a nexus of tribal affinity and rationalization, to not perceive the same bad things you do about Trump and/or they ascribe those bad things to other root causes.

In this way "decent people" can come to support Trump - because they live in a world where the bad things happening aren't his fault, its because of other bad actors - typically ones that satisfy the Tribal Narrative that is common to them and those they consider "on-side" with them.

So they need not be consciously irresponsible nor of malevolent intent.

Their reality is so warped their support has none of the connotations you have about it and plenty more they have themselves which you don't share.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:12 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Praktik View Post
I believe there is a third option: prisoners of belief may be motivated, through a nexus of tribal affinity and rationalization, to not perceive the same bad things you do about Trump and/or they ascribe those bad things to other root causes.

In this way "decent people" can come to support Trump - because they live in a world where the bad things happening aren't his fault, its because of other bad actors - typically ones that satisfy the Tribal Narrative that is common to them and those they consider "on-side" with them.

So they need not be consciously irresponsible nor of malevolent intent.

Their reality is so warped their support has none of the connotations you have about it and plenty more they have themselves which you don't share.
"Trump may be exactly as mean, petty and incompetent as he's always appeared to be, but at least he's not a Democrat!"

My heart is not bleeding compassion for these individuals.

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Old 11th September 2017, 08:13 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Praktik View Post
I believe there is a third option: prisoners of belief may be motivated, through a nexus of tribal affinity and rationalization, to not perceive the same bad things you do about Trump and/or they ascribe those bad things to other root causes.

In this way "decent people" can come to support Trump - because they live in a world where the bad things happening aren't his fault, its because of other bad actors - typically ones that satisfy the Tribal Narrative that is common to them and those they consider "on-side" with them.
How does this differ from being conned by Trump*?



* or others who support Trump as president, for that matter.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:16 AM   #94
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There's also plenty of people for whom Trump is "the lesser evil". In a world where so many actually believe Hillary Clinton is an honest-to-God Demon, Trump as the "disruptor" to the Nexus of Globalist Evil that is Destroying America can mean many perceive Evils So Great, whatever Trump's faults, he's on the "right side" of their Manichaean worldview.

Lest you think this is just the province of more religious conservatives I know plenty of hippies that consider Trump in the same light. Of course they think Clinton is linked to the Illuminati and the NWO - but aside from some different roots they'd share a lot in common with a religious person who has been trained to place certain types of politics and politicians into the Satanic/Demonic part of their binary religious worldview.

These people view potential harm so great in the other options that whatever Trump's faults, its better than the alternative of living in a Liberal/Globalist Hellscape.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:17 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
How does this differ from being conned by Trump*?



* or others who support Trump as president, for that matter.

Seems to me to be potential places to add on to my analysis - I am only speaking of what people believe, not how they came to believe it, or what the truth value of their beliefs actually is.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:17 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
absolutely, nothing to for give. Most were faced with voting for Trump or unelectable pathological liar Hillary. I can"t blame anyone for voting for Trump under those circumstances.
I can blame them. While I agree that Hillary was far from an ideal candidate, the answer was not to vote for a candidate much farther from ideal than her. I get that there was a lot of dislike and distrust of Hillary (based partly on reality and partly on right wing propaganda), but I really don't get why anybody would think Trump would be better. I was hoping since last November that there was more to Trump than meets the eye, but after seven months of his presidency I have concluded that there is actually less to trump than meets the eye.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:17 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
To hold your to your own standards:
Funny how I'm the only one you demand evidence from. That's OK, because I'm probably the only one who actually has any.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w11281.pdf?new_window=1

Table 11, page 63. Immigration disproportionately affects the wages of low-skilled workers.

None of this should surprise anyone. It's simple supply and demand, really. The extraordinary claim (which should require extraordinary evidence, but of course you don't even ask for any) is that supply and demand doesn't apply to labor.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:18 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But since I'm better than you, I'll do what you won't, and actually discuss this rationally and without name calling.
But not without saying that he's not as good as you.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:20 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Praktik View Post
I believe there is a third option: prisoners of belief may be motivated, through a nexus of tribal affinity and rationalization, to not perceive the same bad things you do about Trump and/or they ascribe those bad things to other root causes.

In this way "decent people" can come to support Trump - because they live in a world where the bad things happening aren't his fault, its because of other bad actors - typically ones that satisfy the Tribal Narrative that is common to them and those they consider "on-side" with them.

So they need not be consciously irresponsible nor of malevolent intent.

Their reality is so warped their support has none of the connotations you have about it and plenty more they have themselves which you don't share.
You're assuming that their reality is completely warped and yours isn't at all.

That is not a safe assumption.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:22 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
But not without saying that he's not as good as you.
Am I wrong?
No.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:23 AM   #101
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Yes, no name calling at all!
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:27 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're assuming that their reality is completely warped and yours isn't at all.

That is not a safe assumption.
Not my assumption at all, so it isn't a safe assumption that that's my "safe assumption".

As a skeptic, self identifying as such in the last decade, I recognize the limits of my own perception, and the traits that lead us into irrational belief.

All the things I mentioned only at the highest level: tribal affinity, motivated reasoning - affect me too.

As a human being, I can never fully escape them.

But maybe here on a skeptic's board? We're in a community of people that at least shows awareness of these factors, and so maybe we have a better chance at managing this than those who show no such awareness.

Thats why I'd hoped for a bit better here in terms of a skeptic's board: there's a way out of anger and the imagining of malevolent intent in people, however satisfying that is for the stories we tell ourselves.

We should know better than to assume the worst - we're supposed to be reasonably well acquainted with irrational belief. We don't need to imagine Evil Intent - we don't need to imagine "hopeless irresponsibility".

We have the answers as to why people believe weird and irrational things - and its not because they're evil, or because they see bad things happening and then "act irresponsibly"

Its cause they dont count up the bad things you see the same way you do - and imagine their actions to have good sides you don't see either.

So hopefully, while this does lead to a general pessimism about ever being able to agree with anybody ever - maybe it can lead you to some optimism about the human heart?

So much evil in this world is accidental.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:34 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes, no name calling at all!
Are you having trouble understanding what a name is? Because it's not the same thing as an adjective.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:41 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Praktik View Post
But maybe here on a skeptic's board? We're in a community of people that at least shows awareness of these factors, and so maybe we have a better chance at managing this than those who show no such awareness.
When it comes to politics, I see no evidence of this. It would be nice, but for the most part I don't see it in action.

Quote:
Thats why I'd hoped for a bit better here in terms of a skeptic's board: there's a way out of anger and the imagining of malevolent intent in people, however satisfying that is for the stories we tell ourselves.
Sure, I agree, as far as it goes. But you're still missing my point. You have done much better than many posters here, in that you recognize the possibility that your opponents might not have bad motives. But you are still making a huge assumption that, motives aside, they're still wrong.

Quote:
We have the answers as to why people believe weird and irrational things - and its not because they're evil, or because they see bad things happening and then "act irresponsibly"

Its cause they dont count up the bad things you see the same way you do - and imagine their actions to have good sides you don't see either.
But it goes a step further: it's possible that some of these other beliefs you disagree with aren't just not evil. It's possible they aren't even irrational.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:52 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
http://www.nber.org/papers/w11281.pdf?new_window=1

Table 11, page 63. Immigration disproportionately affects the wages of low-skilled workers.
This is a post hoc analysis of immigration data, not Dreamers, and was written in 2005, before DACA. Further, you're assuming that Dreamers are primarily competing for the low-skill jobs. Is there any particular reason for that assumption or why this data reliably applies to Dreamers?
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:55 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When it comes to politics, I see no evidence of this. It would be nice, but for the most part I don't see it in action.



Sure, I agree, as far as it goes. But you're still missing my point. You have done much better than many posters here, in that you recognize the possibility that your opponents might not have bad motives. But you are still making a huge assumption that, motives aside, they're still wrong.



But it goes a step further: it's possible that some of these other beliefs you disagree with aren't just not evil. It's possible they aren't even irrational.
I acknowledge these possibilities, but have to admit my particular constellation of prior assumptions and world experience has me thinking I'm right and that the chance of my conclusions being erroneous on their wrongness/irrationality is poor.

In this delusion about being right I'm sure I have abundant company - even, and perhaps especially - amongst those Trump supporters I am attempting to describe.
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:57 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This is a post hoc analysis of immigration data, not Dreamers, and was written in 2005, before DACA. Further, you're assuming that Dreamers are primarily competing for the low-skill jobs. Is there any particular reason for that assumption or why this data reliably applies to Dreamers?
I reported it for being off topic...




(No, I didn't)
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Old 11th September 2017, 08:58 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are you having trouble understanding what a name is? Because it's not the same thing as an adjective.
I know it's not name calling but you're missing the point.

You criticised another poster for name-calling and then used personalisation. As far as being uncivil is concerned they are pretty much equivalent. So it turns out you're not better than NoahFence at all.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:04 AM   #109
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This is a post hoc analysis of immigration data, not Dreamers, and was written in 2005, before DACA. Further, you're assuming that Dreamers are primarily competing for the low-skill jobs. Is there any particular reason for that assumption or why this data reliably applies to Dreamers?
First, there's no reason to think the basic dynamic has changed. Second, DACA encourages illegal immigration in general.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:09 AM   #110
Mumbles
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Originally Posted by Praktik View Post
Jeff Sessions will tell you im sure if you ask

This isn't about True or False

Its about What People Believe, which is not guaranteed to have any truth value.
And I'm sure that Sessions considers himself to be a decent, respectable person.

He isn't, though.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:10 AM   #111
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I know it's not name calling but you're missing the point.
If it's not name calling, then why did you call it name calling?

Quote:
You criticised another poster for name-calling and then used personalisation. As far as being uncivil is concerned they are pretty much equivalent. So it turns out you're not better than NoahFence at all.
I didn't criticize him simply for incivility. And given how many times you've tried to use the ploy of adopting what you think are my tactics against me to illustrate what's wrong with them, you're in no position to object even if incivility were the only issue. You're a hypocrite, Argumemnon.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:11 AM   #112
NoahFence
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
First, there's no reason to think the basic dynamic has changed. Second, DACA encourages illegal immigration in general.
I think you'll find that being born in a ****** country is what encourages the vast majority immigration in general. There was a time, not too long ago (Say, last November and before) when coming here was a good answer to that.

Now, not so much.
So all we need to do apparently is have a hateful and ignorant son of a bitch be president, sprinkle some loudmouth sycophants in there and *poof* - immigration solved. Nobody wants to come here.

DACA was designed to help people. Young people. You know as we type hundreds of them are in the Middle East getting shot at to protect this country? Why should they be deported to a place they don't know?
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:13 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When it comes to politics, I see no evidence of this. It would be nice, but for the most part I don't see it in action.
Just on this point - I wonder if the tribal factor is a bit more prominent in the factors why politics is a rock upon which even the most ardent self-identifying skeptic is thrashed, tearing asunder their skeptical method applied elsewhere. Plenty of evidence for this on this board.

I was of course, speaking more broadly about life in general - where I imagine that the skeptical movement does a bit better job at overcoming the myriad of weaknesses in the human mind that lead to irrational belief.

At least you can only hope to manage these better if you are aware of them, and half the skeptical movement's job is education and exploration of these weaknesses.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:14 AM   #114
Praktik
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
And I'm sure that Sessions considers himself to be a decent, respectable person.
Its pretty much a guarantee he considers himself thusly - and has internalized a network of rationalizations to support it.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:17 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
First, there's no reason to think the basic dynamic has changed.
Sure, there is. To be eligible for DACA, one must meet certain criteria. There are no high school drop-out* Dreamers. There are no criminal record-having Dreamers.

There are higher standards for being a Dreamer than there are for having low-skilled jobs.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Second, DACA encourages illegal immigration in general.
And what hard data are you basing that on?




* correction: one can also have their GED. So, I suppose one could drop-out, get their GED, and still be eligible. The point still stands.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:22 AM   #116
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Sure, there is. To be eligible for DACA, one must meet certain criteria. There are no high school drop-out* Dreamers. There are no criminal record-having Dreamers.

There are higher standards for being a Dreamer than there are for having low-skilled jobs.


And what hard data are you basing that on?




* correction: one can also have their GED. So, I suppose one could drop-out, get their GED, and still be eligible. The point still stands.
I thought to be eligible for DACA they had to have arrived before 2007? It's not on-going, is it?

If not, how can it encourage immigration?
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:25 AM   #117
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
DACA was designed to help people.
And as we know, intentions are all that matter. Furthermore, Democrats always have good intentions, and Republicans always have bad intentions.

It's so simple!
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:32 AM   #118
NoahFence
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Sure, there is. To be eligible for DACA, one must meet certain criteria. There are no high school drop-out* Dreamers. There are no criminal record-having Dreamers.
There are higher standards for being a Dreamer than there are for having low-skilled jobs.
And again, this is the picture of the immigrant that conservatar conservatives have been using as the lie that they care about someone besides themselves for years. That they're against the bad hombres, and they'd just love to support immigrants do "did it right".

Them being children with no choice in their circumstance, they can only have done it right. That was their only option.

Now we see their true colors as it pertains to immigrants, illegal or not. And it's sure not the only topic that they now proudly back. Are you an adulterer? No problemo! A con man? No problemo! Are you being investigated by the FBI? Hell, that's not a problem either.

LOL They can't even claim the high ground on mishandling classified information.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:33 AM   #119
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Sure, there is. To be eligible for DACA, one must meet certain criteria. There are no high school drop-out* Dreamers. There are no criminal record-having Dreamers.
Of course there are criminal record-having Dreamers. Sufficiently serious crimes can preclude that status, but plenty of crimes do not. And as I already stated, a number of places have changed local laws to prevent some criminals from triggering those DACA provisions.

Plus, of course, the basic dynamic I'm talking about is labor supply and demand.

Quote:
There are higher standards for being a Dreamer than there are for having low-skilled jobs.
Do you imagine these kids all come to the US on their own? That their parents are highly skilled workers? Or that finishing high school and having a clean record means you're not low-skilled?
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:33 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Ok, let me ask it this way.

What policy or idea has he cone up with that wasn't designed to hurt people?

*rich white males excluded
His crackdown on illegal immigration is designed to help poor citizens. It will especially help black people, since they have much higher levels of poverty. Also, black children are more likely to live in school districts burdened by illegal immigrant children. Cracking down on illegal immigration generally hurts rich white guys, since it makes it harder for them to find cheap labor.
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