ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 11th September 2017, 11:25 AM   #161
Ron_Tomkins
Satan's Helper
 
Ron_Tomkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 41,010
The way I see it, in any electoral system. the people elect the President they wanted, and so, they get what they deserve/asked for. So there's nothing to "forgive". That's their "karma" so to speak. That's the way it is.

In the US, however, if there's any blame to put, it would probably be mostly on the electoral college system.
__________________
"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan"

Carl Sagan

Last edited by Ron_Tomkins; 11th September 2017 at 11:26 AM.
Ron_Tomkins is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 11:35 AM   #162
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,115
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Can we at least agree it was great to deport this criminal because his adoptive family never loved him enough to fill out the proper paperwork?

We need to get rid of the scum like this

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b080eddf57b949
It seemed a bit harsh to me, and I am not sure that I would call him scum, but you have convinced me.
__________________
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 11:47 AM   #163
Praktik
Philosopher
 
Praktik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,231
Right but you know, we have to get rid of DACA, otherwise we risk unleashing the forces of lawlessness!

Without rules there is chaos!
__________________
“ it has become my conviction that things mean pretty much what we want them to mean. We’ll pluck significance from the least consequential happenstance if it suits us and happily ignore the most flagrantly obvious symmetry between separate aspects of our lives if it threatens some cherished prejudice or cosily comforting belief"
-Iain Banks
Praktik is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 12:18 PM   #164
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,305
Originally Posted by Praktik View Post
Right but you know, we have to get rid of DACA, otherwise we risk unleashing the forces of lawlessness!

Without rules there is chaos!
And we finally have a christian on the supreme court.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 12:21 PM   #165
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,862
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And we finally have a christian on the supreme court.
The best presidency rubles can buy.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 12:29 PM   #166
sunmaster14
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 9,883
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
This justification is, of course, a pile of crap.

We know that lead poisoning leads to worse education outcomes, and increased violence. We also know that black communities are more likely to have lead pollution - an administration concerned with black people would push lead abatement programs.

We know that employment discrimination is widespread - to the point where black people with college education are treated similarly to white high school dropouts. An administration concerned with black people would push lead abatement programs.

We know that police discrimination is also widespread - black people are often subject to arbitrary police searches, violence, and all too often murders. an administration concerned with black people would increase monitoring and decrease the militarization of police departments, and at the very least push consent decrees to attempt to reform problem police departments.

We know that the "war on drugs" leads to an amazing number of nonviolent black men being placed in jail, being given criminal records which further damages their job prospects, and leads to a cycle of prison stays that keeps them out of the lives of their children. An administration concerned with black people would push to decriminalize drug offenses.

We know that white nationalist groups are on the rise, leading to violent attacks such as that done by Dylann Roof, and violent demonstrations such as the one we saw last month. An administration concerned with black people would direct the FBI to more closely monitor such groups, and direct resources at programs designed to aid those who wish to leave the clutches of such hate groups.

We know that black people face barriers in terms of control over their state and local governments, due to various voter suppression efforts pushed by the likes of Chris Kobach and Ken Blackwell. In addition, they face long lines at polls due to a relative low number of polling areas and machines. An administration concerned with black people would work against voter suppression efforts, and would try to correct imbalances in waiting times for voting between races.
I don't agree that virtually any of that is of material significance to the economic and social progress (or lack thereof) of the black community. In my view, all of those things are just excuses. Some of them are even completely imaginary. For example, the voter suppression stuff or the police oppression stuff. A while back I might have agreed with you about the war on drugs (which I do think is bad for everyone), but I've since come to learn that many, if not most, of the people in jail on so-called nonviolent drug offences have in fact committed violent crimes but have plea-bargained down to a nonviolent drug offense.

Regardless, you call my assertion crap, but don't provide any rebuttal at all. Your response consists of nothing but a list of grievances, real or imagined.

Quote:
The current administration has done THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what would help black people and black communities in each and every one of these cases, creating what, in terms of black communities, is the single most harmful administration since before the signing of the Civil Rights Act. So don't even try to sell us this garbage about how Toupee Fiasco is just trying to help those poor, poor black children by deporting DACA children (many of whom are are themselves black, by the way)
Obama was horrible for black people. Just horrible. I predict that Trump will turn out to be very good for the black community in general. You will see a narrowing of the economic gap, and levels of crime will go much lower as well.
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 12:35 PM   #167
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 14,993
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's okay, really. Holding a grudge is totally understandable in this situation. There's plenty not to like about how this election turned out. I don't blame you at all for feeling this way.

I admire your honesty about your feelings. And I respect your willingness to try to be civil and cooperative with people you hold a grudge against. Your feelings are yours to deal with however you can. How you choose to deal with others--especially those you dislike--is what makes a difference for the health of our society.

I forgive you for holding a grudge against me. If our positions were reversed, I'd probably do the same.

This is probably the most useful response in what I thought would be a profoundly unproductive thread.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 12:48 PM   #168
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 16,410
Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I agree. I also confess after all these years of forgiving people, I'm still a little confused as to what it's supposed to entail.
The elephant in the room.

What does "forgive them" even mean?

Like you, I say, if forgiveness means that the relationship has to go back to what it was before they did what they did, then, no, I can't do that. In fact, I don't really do that with anyone. The relationship has changed, and I can't view them as before any more. If someone has wronged me, that will always be part of our relationship. How can I just pretend what they did never happened?

In this case, it even goes beyond a one-time event. Their actions continue to affect me now, because I will forever have to deal with the effects of Trump in the White House. You set back the country from where it could be. Why should I act like you didn't have something to do with that?

Then again, I've never been all that clear on what "forgive" is supposed to mean. Maybe I don't understand the concept. Perhaps I have it too closely tied to absolution? I don't know. I do know that I don't get it.
__________________
I have a permanent room at the Home for the Chronically Groovy - Floyd from the Muppets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 01:27 PM   #169
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 38,512
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I don't mean if you can work with a Trump voter. Or be civil with them. I believe with time I could work with a Trump voter and be civil with them too.

But I have real doubts I will ever be able to forgive them. Deep down I'm just sort of thinking there will always be a sort of seething anger. I'm not sure if it is a sense of betrayal or what. I know it isn't healthy. I'll admit that. But I'm also a realist that knows that not everything that goes on in my head is healthy.

But what about you? Does it matter at all to you that someone voted in favor of so many unconscionable views and actions? Can you just look right past their choice?

Personally I feel that whatever my feelings I have to try and work with them. I'm not sure how but the other options sure don't look good for the whole nation in the long term.
Hi,
No problem, this is a democracy of the representative sort. They vote as they see fit, I vote as I see fit.
Nothing to forgive, can't say I find any shred that I like in Trump.

But hey, they can vote for who they want
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 01:29 PM   #170
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 17,953
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It seemed a bit harsh to me, and I am not sure that I would call him scum, but you have convinced me.
It's what Jesus would have done.
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 04:29 PM   #171
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 8,461
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Rabid partisanship has been the GOP MO American Way for a while now so it's hardly shocking if a large chunk of the US electorate use it as a criterion for judging Presidential success.
Don't delude yourself into thinking that only R's vote party line with no actual thought involved.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 04:54 PM   #172
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 11,171
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I don't mean if you can work with a Trump voter. Or be civil with them. I believe with time I could work with a Trump voter and be civil with them too.

But I have real doubts I will ever be able to forgive them. Deep down I'm just sort of thinking there will always be a sort of seething anger. I'm not sure if it is a sense of betrayal or what. I know it isn't healthy. I'll admit that. But I'm also a realist that knows that not everything that goes on in my head is healthy.

But what about you? Does it matter at all to you that someone voted in favor of so many unconscionable views and actions? Can you just look right past their choice?

Personally I feel that whatever my feelings I have to try and work with them. I'm not sure how but the other options sure don't look good for the whole nation in the long term.
Sure. I can forgive a Trump voter.

The ones that I cannot forgive are the unapologetic supporters of the Iraq War. Those are the people that I still find so horribly disgusting.
__________________
On 16 MAY 2017 Paul Bethke discussed some of the sexual prohibitions of his god regarding man-to-man sex acts and woman-to-woman sex acts: "So not only lesbian acts but also anal sex.."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post11840580

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 05:02 PM   #173
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 8,461
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Clearly many voters had difficulty in deciding which was the bigger crime; voting for Trump or voting for Clinton.

A system that would produce two such unsavoury candidates in the first place is the hardest to forgive.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 05:06 PM   #174
Emily's Cat
Knows how to push buttons... er... press keys
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 8,461
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What claim have I made "here" that would require evidence?
Okay, but to be fair you pretty much never make any claims of your own. You seem to be more interested in attacking claims made by other people. Which is fine, but it does get you off the hook when it comes to providing evidence. You pretty much get to sit back, tell people they're wrong, then retreat to not having made a claim so you never have to support anything you've said.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 05:48 PM   #175
Apathia
Illuminator
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 4,073
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I find it pointless, myself, just like apologies. As far as I'm concerned, the best way forward in instances where one party is hurt or has done wrong is to avoid doing the same thing in the future. I can think of no better proof that one has admitted one's mistakes than them not repeating them, and no better way to show forgiveness than just not bringing it up again.
Not bringing it up again is perfect, when it doesn't happen again. Then yes, I want to not bring it up again by giving the repeat offender the distance necessary so ze isn't going to be able to help me bring it up again.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 06:07 PM   #176
Apathia
Illuminator
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 4,073
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The elephant in the room.

What does "forgive them" even mean?

Like you, I say, if forgiveness means that the relationship has to go back to what it was before they did what they did, then, no, I can't do that. In fact, I don't really do that with anyone. The relationship has changed, and I can't view them as before any more. If someone has wronged me, that will always be part of our relationship. How can I just pretend what they did never happened?

In this case, it even goes beyond a one-time event. Their actions continue to affect me now, because I will forever have to deal with the effects of Trump in the White House. You set back the country from where it could be. Why should I act like you didn't have something to do with that?

Then again, I've never been all that clear on what "forgive" is supposed to mean. Maybe I don't understand the concept. Perhaps I have it too closely tied to absolution? I don't know. I do know that I don't get it.
I'm thinking that the better tact is acceptance that the betrayal was done and moving on to work with it as best possible with the least rancor. In an ongoing relationship its going to take the work of both parties to repair and progress. If the betrayer can't participate in working through the damage, and especially if ze can't help repeating it in some fashion, then sayonara.

I can get over condemning the other and bearing a grudge, but how things must play out is a different matter.

OK, ze voted for Trump (or didn't but defends him). That's done. Ze's not my enemy, but a person whose vote for Trump was a vote for bigotry and racism isn't going to be my intimate friend, soulmate, anam cara or whatever its called.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 06:14 PM   #177
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 16,679
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I disagree, IMO withdrawing from the Paris Accord is as awful as it comes.
I thought about his general approach to environmental affairs as a really big downside. Cutting environmental regulations generally means that the environment will be less clean, less sustainable, or both.

The Paris Accords specifically didn't bother me all that much. I wouldn't go so far as Ziggurat did, but I'm not sure that they were all that meaningful.

One of the problems with following news stories related to environmental news is that it is so hard to get to the real substance of the story. The media just doesn't cover it well, and who has time to do research and really delve into what really happens? What are the actual, concrete, effects of leaving the Paris accords, or any other of his policies.

What we get is that he offended a bunch of world leaders by backing out, but I couldn't figure out what actually happened. As I recall, it was an unenforceable "we promise" sort of agreement, which is barely an agreement at all. Also in the news, we know that he has cut the EPA budget, but we don't know much about what effect that will have. Cutting or raising budgets is a great way of saying "we care", or not, by itself, it doesn't tell us anything. We know he cut a bunch of people who made their living studying climate change, and at first glance that seems very, very, bad......except that climate change is pretty much proven beyond any doubt, so what exactly were they studying? "Yep. It's melting." I don't know. Seriously. I have no idea if any of his environmental policies will have any actual, concrete, effect on the environment. That aspect isn't covered.

So, that was an area where I'm appalled that people voted for Trump, and I really want to shake them and say, "No, seriously. Environmental damage, endangered species, and global warming are all real things. It's not some liberal conspiracy theory!" However, when all is said and done, I am skeptical that even his bad policies will be all that different from those of a "good" president. I think most of it might be feel good, symbolic, stuff.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 06:39 PM   #178
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,347
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Most of the things that made Hillary unsavorable were, well. Fake news. Trails of dead bodies in their wake and of course pizza parlor child sex rings. That anyone believes any of that is a testament to how effective propaganda can really be.
Dirty politics was definitely the game. However, Hillary Clinton was unpopular before the primaries. The perception was that she was the "corporate" choice and would perpetuate everything that was unpopular about American government.

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
The way I see it, in any electoral system. the people elect the President they wanted, and so, they get what they deserve/asked for. So there's nothing to "forgive". That's their "karma" so to speak. That's the way it is.

In the US, however, if there's any blame to put, it would probably be mostly on the electoral college system.
This is so true. And I believe that the primaries system is similar which is why two such unpopular candidates got put to the public.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 06:45 PM   #179
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22,243
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sure. I can forgive a Trump voter.

The ones that I cannot forgive are the unapologetic supporters of the Iraq War. Those are the people that I still find so horribly disgusting.
What about the apologetic supporters of the Iraq war?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 07:09 PM   #180
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,215
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Politics is your religion. Voting for Trump was heresy. It was a cardinal sin. And you don't know if you can forgive the apostates.

If you want to overcome these feelings, which you recognize are unhealthy, you have to let go of your attachment to politics. You have to make it mean less to you. Politics is a poor religion, it will always disappoint.
I won't speak for Travis, obviously. He's rather more passionate in his political views than I am.

But this election was different for me. My family uniformly votes Republican. I thought that a vote for Bush in 2004 was seriously misguided, but I could understand it. I didn't think the same about votes for McCain or Romney, though I certainly did not support either candidate. (For McCain, I was a bit disappointed, because I thought he was a better man than I saw in the campaign.)

A vote for Trump is different. Trump is transparently self-interested, short-sighted, incompetent and indifferent regarding truth. I have to say that I think worse of those who were suckered by such a ridiculous man. I include in this group one of my best friends who ridiculed Trump prior to the election but decided that a vote for Trump was better than a vote for Hillary.

Mind, he's still one of my best friends and we still talk (even about politics). He's not a complete nincompoop for voting for Trump, but it was undeniably a bad choice on his part. Not sure if he agrees with that assessment yet, since we haven't spoken in a few months[1], but that's certainly how I feel.

[1] We live very far apart and our conversations have been sporadic for years. This has nothing to do with the election.
phiwum is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 07:17 PM   #181
Mumbles
Illuminator
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,604
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I don't agree that virtually any of that is of material significance to the economic and social progress (or lack thereof) of the black community. In my view, all of those things are just excuses. Some of them are even completely imaginary. For example, the voter suppression stuff or the police oppression stuff. A while back I might have agreed with you about the war on drugs (which I do think is bad for everyone), but I've since come to learn that many, if not most, of the people in jail on so-called nonviolent drug offences have in fact committed violent crimes but have plea-bargained down to a nonviolent drug offense.
In that case, you're simply ignoring the evidence. The "Voter fraud commission", as one example, is basically the all-star team of people who quite literally worked to disenfranchise as many nonwhite people as they possibly could. Sessions' attempt to block the Baltimore PD consent decree, without even reading the DoJ's findings which pointed to blatant issues, or his dismissal of the Ferguson report's findings as "just a couple of anecdotes", would be risible if it weren't for the blatant abuses that were caught on camera - including, in BPD's case, on their own body cameras. Hiring discrimination has been found in one study after the next - I didn't bother listing them because I didn't want to pull the thread off-topic.

To reach your conclusion, we'd have to ignore virtually every study done on society, as well as the history of the US, and studies done on the effects of lead on the young, and your own eyes.

ETA: I also like how you handwave these well-supported issues, but then claim that, somehow, getting rid of DACA will lead to the end of black poverty.

Quote:
Regardless, you call my assertion crap, but don't provide any rebuttal at all. Your response consists of nothing but a list of grievances, real or imagined.
That is a substance-free dodge.

*shrug*

Quote:
Obama was horrible for black people. Just horrible. I predict that Trump will turn out to be very good for the black community in general. You will see a narrowing of the economic gap, and levels of crime will go much lower as well.
Your prediction is already being disproven right before our eyes. I see absolutely nothing in Toupee Fiasco's agenda that will aid black communities. I see a great deal that will harm black communities, including the matters I have noted in this thread. This administration appears to be veering towards Woodrow Wilson as far as race relations go. Open segregation, sympathy towards white supremacy riots, advocacy of state violence against nonwhite people - it's all right there, in the open.

So, to bring it all back, if you voted for Cheeto Benito, which it seems that you did - I hold you partly responsible for this white supremacist administration.

Last edited by Mumbles; 11th September 2017 at 07:25 PM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 07:25 PM   #182
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,152
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Name one thing Trump has done that is designed to make everybody's lives better. One policy. Just one. Natural disasters don't count, because that's reactionary. I'm talking about policy.
Anything? Name one thing the *********** Frogs have done in the 19th - 20th century to make anybody's lives better.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.

Last edited by John Jones; 11th September 2017 at 07:27 PM.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 07:36 PM   #183
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 20,815
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Anything? Name one thing the *********** Frogs have done in the 19th - 20th century to make anybody's lives better.


There, there. Everything's ok.
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 07:39 PM   #184
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 14,993
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Anything? Name one thing the *********** Frogs have done in the 19th - 20th century to make anybody's lives better.
...what?
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 07:41 PM   #185
NoahFence
Psycho Kitty
 
NoahFence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 20,815
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
...what?
LOL

Yea, huh?
__________________
you to the ignorant, uneducated portion ofAmerica too short sighted to see what's right in front of your cheeto loving faces.
NoahFence is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 07:56 PM   #186
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 36,381
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Anything? Name one thing the *********** Frogs have done in the 19th - 20th century to make anybody's lives better.
The 1812 Overture.

They probably saved 100,000 German lives by surrendering in WWII.

The bikini.

Catherine Deneuve (certainly made Luis Bunuel's life better).

The Tour de France.

[/voila - end derail]
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele
"Chicken **** Poster!"
Help! We're being attacked by sea lions!
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 07:58 PM   #187
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,152
Maybe the conversation has moved on but I'm still on DACA. "Protecting" low-skilled American workers seems to mean shielding them from competition that might motivate them to raise their game. DACA enrollees aren't looking for jobs as farmworkers. They are looking at programs like pharmacy technicians, careers in the military or the next level of education. Sure they might compete for jobs that most Americans would rather not compete for but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Isn't competition supposed to raise everybody's game? Unless we just admit there is a class of U.S. citizens that we deem then unable or unfit to upgrade their job skills, which strikes me as its own sort of bigotry.

But on forgiveness: I'm not going to snub my brother and my nephew for being taken in. I hope that's what happened, and not that they voted Trump due to leaning toward white nationalism or white supremacy. My niece and sister-in-law cancel out the Trump voters in that family so maybe I can afford to be charitable. They are still my family. My mother, a lifelong Republican, did not vote for Trump. I, a registered Republican, certainly didn't vote for Trump. This has been said many times but the ones I have trouble forgiving are Democrats who didn't bother voting because Hillary supposedly had it in the bag. HuffPo etc. didn't do the country any favors by saying Hillary had a 99 percent probability of winning. I think she would have stood firm with our allies and not created this unfortunate image Trump has earned in the international press.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 08:00 PM   #188
Mumbles
Illuminator
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,604
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What do you mean?
I mean exactly what I said. Black communities in the US (the US is still highly segregated) are far more likely to have high levels of lead contamination than white communities. This includes lead paint, but also includes water and soil contamination. Furthermore, studies show that high levels of lead poisoning among the young is a cause of both educational issues, and violence later in life. This is a major issue in, among other areas, Flint Michigan, in recent history - and yet another area where the administration could make a difference.

But instead, we get Toupee Fiasco relaxing environmental restrictions. Because he just has to undo everything Obama did.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 08:02 PM   #189
Elagabalus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,591
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Anything? Name one thing the *********** Frogs have done in the 19th - 20th century to make anybody's lives better.

Poison skin. Can't make poison darts without poison skin.


Ohhhhhhhhhhhh. You mean the French.


ETA: Gnome rotary engine-everything cast in nickel steel alloy! Very Hi-tech even for today.

Last edited by Elagabalus; 11th September 2017 at 08:07 PM.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 08:06 PM   #190
Noztradamus
Illuminator
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,489
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What do you mean?
More driveby shootings?
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 08:06 PM   #191
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 17,588
Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I agree. I also confess after all these years of forgiving people, I'm still a little confused as to what it's supposed to entail.

Here's Charlie Brown and Lucy: She holds the football for him to kick, but removes it so he falls on his tush. She apologizes. he forgives her. The next day she pulls the prank again. Charlie's such a good guy and trusting soul that Lucy plays him again and again without fail.

Does forgiveness mean the relationship is restored just as it was before it was betrayed, such that a person continues to forgive hir abusive spouse and lets hirself be abused again and again?

I have forgiven various people in my life who have betrayed my trust, but I remain cautious about them, and there is an interpersonal distance that wasn't there before. I'm over animosity, but I remember who these people are.

Sure, I am kind to Trump Enthusiasts, but there's a friendly distance.
If I found a scorpion in my room, even though I've been stung by one before, I'd carefully capture it and let it go free outside. I'm kind to scorpions. I respect them. But I don't snuggle up with them.
I wouldn't say that practicing forgiveness means leaving yourself in harm's way, no. Or even trusting to get the football kicked. But if you can really forgive people, it frees you up to do a lot more important and fulfilling things than hold grudges. I do a forgiveness meditation and sometimes use political figures as an example. If you can forgive one of them in the abstract, it's good practice for people close to you.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 08:34 PM   #192
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,152
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I think you're confusing me with Zig. I'm just asking him to maintain his own standard.
No. Sunmaster has described you.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:01 PM   #193
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,152
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Ok, let me ask it this way.

What policy or idea has he cone up with that wasn't designed to hurt people?

*rich white males excluded
Rich white males don't deserve equal protection under the law. Good to get that learned.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:09 PM   #194
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,152
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
To hold your to your own standards:
That makes no objective sense.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:11 PM   #195
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,152
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Poison skin. Can't make poison darts without poison skin.


Ohhhhhhhhhhhh. You mean the French.


ETA: Gnome rotary engine-everything cast in nickel steel alloy! Very Hi-tech even for today.
Not the question.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:14 PM   #196
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 11,347
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Rich white males don't deserve equal protection under the law. Good to get that learned.
Although Trump's policies don't interest me as much as the choice voters had at the last election, I can't let this strawman go without comment.

NF clearly meant that Trump policies were for the protection of rich white males exclusively - not inclusively.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:14 PM   #197
Apathia
Illuminator
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 4,073
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I wouldn't say that practicing forgiveness means leaving yourself in harm's way, no. Or even trusting to get the football kicked. But if you can really forgive people, it frees you up to do a lot more important and fulfilling things than hold grudges. I do a forgiveness meditation and sometimes use political figures as an example. If you can forgive one of them in the abstract, it's good practice for people close to you.
I'm not a grudge holder. I do forgive people more in the sense that I accept the reality of the situation with them and quickly flow with however it changes.

I don't see that forgiveness means that an abusive partner must still be a heart intimate. Sometimes moving on doesn't include the maintenance of a relationship. Forgiveness then means you accept the realities of the circumstance and let go of the disappointed expectations of how you think things are supposed to be. Forgiveness based on an expectation the other changes is appropriate for an ongoing relationship, but beneath that there must be an acceptance of the other for who ze chooses to be.

So fine, your friend is alt-right, you cut hir that slack, but also you know the boundaries of hir bigotry, and since all friendships come with their own expectations and masks, you steer appropriately, but also with openness to change.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown

Last edited by Apathia; 11th September 2017 at 10:35 PM.
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:24 PM   #198
Elagabalus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,591
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Not the question.

which was?
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2017, 09:52 PM   #199
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 22,368
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Don't delude yourself into thinking that only R's vote party line with no actual thought involved.
Do you even bother to keep up with the thread in general or do you just knee-jerk to individual comments ?

In a conversation about why some Republicans want to expunge Obama from the record entirely Democratic Party partisanship (real or imagined) doesn't really come into it.

edited to add.....

Then again, of late the Democratic Party seems to be more willing to work with a Republican Party president than members of the GOP (<--- for the avoidance of doubt, this emoticon indicates that the last sentence was a joke and not an attempt to describe the situation accurately)

Last edited by The Don; 11th September 2017 at 09:54 PM.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2017, 02:05 AM   #200
jakesteele
Fait Accompli
 
jakesteele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rain City
Posts: 2,087
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I don't mean if you can work with a Trump voter. Or be civil with them. I believe with time I could work with a Trump voter and be civil with them too.

But I have real doubts I will ever be able to forgive them. Deep down I'm just sort of thinking there will always be a sort of seething anger. I'm not sure if it is a sense of betrayal or what. I know it isn't healthy. I'll admit that. But I'm also a realist that knows that not everything that goes on in my head is healthy.

But what about you? Does it matter at all to you that someone voted in favor of so many unconscionable views and actions? Can you just look right past their choice?

Personally I feel that whatever my feelings I have to try and work with them. I'm not sure how but the other options sure don't look good for the whole nation in the long term.
I have friends who voted for Clinton and I haven't forgiven them yet. How anybody could have voted for that political gangster is beyond me. No other political machine in modern history has amassed so many scandals and told so many lies.

Clinton supporters are a "basket of despicables".
__________________
Life is God's funniest joke
and we are the punchline.
jakesteele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:26 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.