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Old 14th September 2017, 07:02 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Has it been clarified enough, yet, to remove your confusion in the end?


ETA: It really is as simple as... 1) JoeBentley made a false claim, which I quoted and 2) refuted, (why cede the high ground both intellectually and rationally, after all, especially when dealing with that which can be easily dealt with without needing to do so?) then I moved on and 3) responded to the OP. Others later ignored the quoted claim and decided to rip a phrase out of context from the refutation that mirrored that from JoeBentley's claim to come up with something of a nonsensical position to question me about.
I'm sorry I can't afford a full page ad in the New York Times to let the entire world know that you were right and I was wrong. I might be able to get you another trophy and ribbon.

I still have literally no clue what exact problem you had with my statement outside of pure semantics and pedantics, but it's obvious you are not only right but IT IS SUPER IMPORTANT.
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Old 14th September 2017, 07:26 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
For those of us who find this curiously fascinating but can't identify the photograph, whom are we talking about?

Dave
Is it the bloke who thought he was a bear?
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Old 14th September 2017, 07:35 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Is it the bloke who thought he was a bear?
You mean a beaver.

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Old 14th September 2017, 07:45 AM   #84
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Intelligent Design

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
You mean a beaver.



Dave


Christopher McCandless,
McCandless hiked into the Alaska wilderness in April 1992 and died there in late August of that year. McCandless, of course, was the 24-year-old subject of the Jon Krakauer best-selling book "Into the Wild," which later became a 2007 movie starring Emile Hirsch.

He poisoned himself by getting mixed up and eating the wrong type of berries. If the film is to be believed he graduated college and instead of starting a career decided to f@"& it all off and travel around America, probably to find himself. On his travels he ultimately rejected any attempt by other people to get him to join them and settle. But you get the sense he really had no clue what he was doing and ended up killing himself due to his own ignorance. You can't just piss off into Alaska on your own with no proper equipment or experience and expect to survive.


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Old 14th September 2017, 07:47 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
You mean a beaver.

Dave
I got it.
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Old 14th September 2017, 09:08 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post

He poisoned himself by getting mixed up and eating the wrong type of berries.
He died from rabbit starvation. His body fat reserves were completely depleted.

In the movie he tried and failed to cross a river overflown with the Spring thaw. 700 yards down the stream there was a manually operated cable crossing to use in emergencies like that, fact he would have learnt had he gotten a map of the park and not a general traffic map for the whole region.

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Old 14th September 2017, 09:43 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
What I meant was that Intelligent Design isn't some real opinion that people actually hold. It's a marketing ploy. It was specifically and intentionally (and openly admitted to being) created to ... ...
People do believe in marketing ploys and intentionally created falsehoods. Just look at any evangelical faith healer.
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Old 14th September 2017, 09:45 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
There don't have to be all those gradual changes. For example, the offspring of an insect could have an extra pair of legs compared with the parent due to the replication of a section of DNA, there would not need to be several generations with increasing proportions of the extra pair of legs.
Having one extra pair of legs identical to the first ones is the shortest and easiest path. Radically changing the design of legs is a long and difficult journey, if an advantage compared to previous versions needs to be constantly maintained.
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Old 14th September 2017, 11:36 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
Really liked the post except I'm not sure about the hilited bit. A brain or maybe a neural network is not mathematically functional in the same way a set of logic gates are I think. At least I remember reading that the state of and result that a neural network creates based on its inputs is not entirely predictable?

Just a small derail. But interesting point in your post.

You're correct. Neurons don't actually work like logic gates do. So what I was doing was looking for what they do have in common, along with the basic building block units of all other systems that have been demonstrated to be computationally universal (capable of any computation a digital computer, or more technically a Universal Turing Machine, can perform).

That simplest common aspect appears to be nonlinear behavior; a small change in input can cause no change in output, or a large change, depending on the states of other inputs. If instead, all neurons or logic gates could do was output the average of all their inputs, they wouldn't be nearly as useful.

Linear systems can perform a lot of computations. The lens of the eye (or of a camera), for instance, sorts incoming photons, no matter where on the surface of the lens they happen to strike, based on the direction they came from. That's how a focused image is created. But as far as I know, lenses or collections of lenses aren't capable of universal computation. You couldn't make a collection of lenses run Minecraft*, for instance, no matter how many lenses you used in how complex an arrangement. To do that you'd have to include elements that were nonlinear, such as optical switches.

As for the outcome of such a system often being unpredictable, that's true of all universal computing systems, and it's an important clue (though not proof) that a system might be computationally universal. You might look at the extremely simple rules of, for instance, Wolfram's Rule 110, and think that it shouldn't be hard to predict how a given starting state would behave. But because Rule 110 is computationally universal, running it with some particular starting state and answering some specific question about its future behavior (such as whether or not it will eventually start repeating itself) might turn out to be equivalent to computing whether a certain 10,000-digit number is prime. The only known way to learn what the system will do is to run it, or run some other system that simulates its operation step by step.

(Of course, that doesn't mean all possible starting states are unpredictable, even if the system is potentially universal. For instance, if you run Rule 110 with a starting state of all "white" cells, nothing will ever happen. And we try pretty hard to design our computer programs so that their behavior is predictable.)

*I use that example because Minecraft itself is computationally universal. You can build structures within the rules of Minecraft that are equivalent to Turing machines or other computationally universal devices. So, any system that can run Minecraft must itself be computationally universal as well.
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Old 14th September 2017, 12:24 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Having one extra pair of legs identical to the first ones is the shortest and easiest path. Radically changing the design of legs is a long and difficult journey, if an advantage compared to previous versions needs to be constantly maintained.
Again, one-dimensional thinking. If the environment changes, the optimum changes, so the definition of "advantage" changes.

Dave
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Old 14th September 2017, 12:25 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
He died from rabbit starvation. His body fat reserves were completely depleted.

In the movie he tried and failed to cross a river overflown with the Spring thaw. 700 yards down the stream there was a manually operated cable crossing to use in emergencies like that, fact he would have learnt had he gotten a map of the park and not a general traffic map for the whole region.

An American romantic hero My darwiness!
Poor guy. I think one of my greatest pieces of good fortune is that I can survive and prosper in the reality I find myself in. It looks like he wasn't that lucky.

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Old 14th September 2017, 12:31 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
Christopher McCandless,
McCandless hiked into the Alaska wilderness in April 1992 and died there in late August of that year. McCandless, of course, was the 24-year-old subject of the Jon Krakauer best-selling book "Into the Wild," which later became a 2007 movie starring Emile Hirsch.

He poisoned himself by getting mixed up and eating the wrong type of berries.
No that's pretty much a total invention by John Krakauer, who is for some reason is oddly obsessed with finding a reason for Mr. McCandless's death that can't be easily chocked up to "He didn't do even the most basic levels of preparation."

The "Wrong Berries" is just one version. At one point (I can't remember if this was before or after) he was convinced it was fungus. And at one point he was sure it was some seeds that raised his L-canavanine levels. For some reason Krakauer deeply needs McCandless's death to be via some one in a million, weird quirk of fate that could have befallen anyone. In simple terms he needs it to not be his fault. He's fully bought into the "Tragic Folk Hero" image of McCandless and a death which essentially amounts to a long, slow suicide via a mixture of stupidity caused by idealism and rich white boy ennui doesn't fit that narrative.

The reality is more simple and either more tragic or more stupid or both depending on how you look at it. He went totally unprepared without the most basic levels of supplies or training or situational awareness into one of the harshest environments in the world and starved to death.
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Old 14th September 2017, 01:18 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
... For some reason Krakauer deeply needs McCandless's death to be via some one in a million, weird quirk of fate that could have befallen anyone. In simple terms he needs it to not be his fault. He's fully bought into the "Tragic Folk Hero" image of McCandless and a death which essentially amounts to a long, slow suicide ...
Agreed, to that point. Doesn't he deserve his own sceptical thread? I was surprised at the time the topic wasn't discussed here but briefly.
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Old 14th September 2017, 01:22 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Agreed, to that point. Doesn't he deserve his own sceptical thread? I was surprised at the time the topic wasn't discussed here but briefly.
I'm pretty sure we did at one point, probably around the time the movie did.

But yeah we're probably getting dangerously close to hijacking this thread so we'll leave this for another time.
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Old 14th September 2017, 01:33 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I'm pretty sure we did at one point, probably around the time the movie did.
[...].
We talked about it.
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Old 14th September 2017, 01:37 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
We talked about it.
I think consensus was that Amanda didn't do it.
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Old 14th September 2017, 01:46 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
I think consensus was that Amanda didn't do it.
You can't trust the consensus. They are all the wrong color. Ask anyone.
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Old 14th September 2017, 02:14 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I'm pretty sure we did at one point, probably around the time the movie did.

But yeah we're probably getting dangerously close to hijacking this thread so we'll leave this for another time.

Perhaps we can assume McCandless was a believer in Intelligent Design, and thought himself capable of all kinds of feats in consequence. If we throw in that line "God will never give me something to do that I'm not up to", that is so popular with the faithful we are on a winner and the thread is back on track.
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Old 14th September 2017, 03:28 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
No that's pretty much a total invention by John Krakauer, who is for some reason is oddly obsessed with finding a reason for Mr. McCandless's death that can't be easily chocked up to "He didn't do even the most basic levels of preparation."

The "Wrong Berries" is just one version. At one point (I can't remember if this was before or after) he was convinced it was fungus. And at one point he was sure it was some seeds that raised his L-canavanine levels. For some reason Krakauer deeply needs McCandless's death to be via some one in a million, weird quirk of fate that could have befallen anyone. In simple terms he needs it to not be his fault. He's fully bought into the "Tragic Folk Hero" image of McCandless and a death which essentially amounts to a long, slow suicide via a mixture of stupidity caused by idealism and rich white boy ennui doesn't fit that narrative.

The reality is more simple and either more tragic or more stupid or both depending on how you look at it. He went totally unprepared without the most basic levels of supplies or training or situational awareness into one of the harshest environments in the world and starved to death.
At least from watching the "Into the Wild" movie I concluded that there was nothing insightful or inspirational to be gained from McCandless's story. Restless and clueless young person decides to find himself in the (fictional) romance of the Alaskan wildness. Refuses to learn necessary skills or to join others who have more practical experience. Dies.

IMHO no more interesting or provocative than learning someone died in a traffic accident because they did not look both ways before attempting to cross the street.
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Old 14th September 2017, 03:51 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
No that's pretty much a total invention by John Krakauer, who is for some reason is oddly obsessed with finding a reason for Mr. McCandless's death that can't be easily chocked up to "He didn't do even the most basic levels of preparation."

The "Wrong Berries" is just one version. At one point (I can't remember if this was before or after) he was convinced it was fungus. And at one point he was sure it was some seeds that raised his L-canavanine levels. For some reason Krakauer deeply needs McCandless's death to be via some one in a million, weird quirk of fate that could have befallen anyone. In simple terms he needs it to not be his fault. He's fully bought into the "Tragic Folk Hero" image of McCandless and a death which essentially amounts to a long, slow suicide via a mixture of stupidity caused by idealism and rich white boy ennui doesn't fit that narrative.

The reality is more simple and either more tragic or more stupid or both depending on how you look at it. He went totally unprepared without the most basic levels of supplies or training or situational awareness into one of the harshest environments in the world and starved to death.
ha, ok. thanks for that. Never knew that, though it appears I had seen through the directors artistic license since by the end of the film, to put it in your words (which was what I felt but could not quite articulate as well as you) I felt:
Quote:
essentially amounts to a long, slow suicide via a mixture of stupidity caused by idealism and rich white boy ennui
And sorry, derail over.
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Old 14th September 2017, 03:52 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
You can't trust the consensus. They are all the wrong color. Ask anyone.
Duh, not everyone agrees with that!,
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Old 14th September 2017, 04:05 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Perhaps we can assume McCandless was a believer in Intelligent Design, and thought himself capable of all kinds of feats in consequence. If we throw in that line "God will never give me something to do that I'm not up to", that is so popular with the faithful we are on a winner and the thread is back on track.
If only he had slowly evolved and adapted to the situation he found himself getting into, he may have survived.

Actually I have often wondered though never investigated, if human intelligence is becoming a fitness trait (actually maybe that is rather obvious), rather than say straight alpha male brawn. Was watching a couple of mountain goats on an Attenborough program fighting for the right to plug the females, which still happens with humans on a Saturday night around our way. But I can't help feeling that having loads of bunce (money), which generally can be hard to come by without some level of intelligence, will most always win the gal.
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Old 14th September 2017, 10:11 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, it was a seeking of clarity, nothing more.
Which is why you responded to the clarification like you did and pointedly omitted the part about what claim it was actually made to address?

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
There was never an attempt at ripping a position apart,
There was no claim made that you were ripping a position apart. Rather, the closest claim made to that is that you would have had to seize upon a small part of the refutation and rip it out of the context to get to where you (and Fast Eddie B) ended up. The context provided both by the original quotation and the surrounding text should have kept the meaning rather clear, regardless, before getting to your treatment of the clarification. Furthermore, if you weren't going after JoeBentley about how he said what he said, which you weren't, you really shouldn't have been going after me. Frankly, that fact quite strongly hints at what probably was actually going on.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
just a seeking of understanding of the poster's point. Not every questioning of someone's post is an attempt to pull the argument down, although some posters do behave as though it is. I still, even now, don't understand why the (trivial) point was made in the way it was.
The only reason I used "exists" in the original was as a mirror to that claim that JoeBentley made, while using it exactly like he did. If you have a problem with the usage, take it up with him, first. Or rather, don't, because he's already effectively admitted that "exists" was a poor choice and restated what he meant in a way that should have been clearer to those who weren't actually paying attention. Still just as wrong for the exact same reasons as I pointed out initially and in my clarification to you, of course, given that his initial stated reasons for why it "didn't exist" had kept what he was referring to clear enough.

Satisfied yet?
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Old 14th September 2017, 10:17 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I'm sorry I can't afford a full page ad in the New York Times to let the entire world know that you were right and I was wrong. I might be able to get you another trophy and ribbon.
My apologies for the unpleasantness. That wasn't directed at you at all.

Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I still have literally no clue what exact problem you had with my statement outside of pure semantics and pedantics, but it's obvious you are not only right but IT IS SUPER IMPORTANT.
What do you think was actually right about your claims that people don't believe Intelligent Design is the case? A heck of a lot do, after all. It's even easily demonstrable. Most of them are religious folks, yes, but a notable few who aren't religious also believe in Intelligent Design (can't forget that ID allows for aliens, after all), too. ID is literally rebranded creationism, just modified slightly to be a little bit more inclusive of other potential intelligent designers and specifics for how the design was done and implemented than Biblical versions of creationism. Claiming that no one believes in ID means that you're saying that no one believes in creationism. There's no getting around that.
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Old 14th September 2017, 11:35 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
..........Satisfied yet?
Just cut it out. You're in danger of annoying the hell out of people who want a discussion of the subject "Intelligent Design", whilst doing nothing whatever to address the question I posed. I have literally zero interest in your answer now anyway, (it was never more than an aside), and this stupid nonsense is a classic ISF multi-page "I'm right and you're wrong" ego-fest. You've managed to take a simple "sorry, I don't understand the point you are trying to make" and turn it into 3 days of tedious bollocks. Congratulations.
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Old 14th September 2017, 11:48 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Having one extra pair of legs identical to the first ones is the shortest and easiest path. Radically changing the design of legs is a long and difficult journey, if an advantage compared to previous versions needs to be constantly maintained.
Oh, indeed, but it's much easier to adapt a pair of legs you already have into something else, rather than develop that something else from nothing, which is the straw man of evolution that the IDers prefer to attack.
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Old 15th September 2017, 02:07 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
it's much easier to adapt a pair of legs you already have into something else, rather than develop that something else from nothing
It is easier to slightly modify existing complex structures than build new ones from scratch. On the other hand, if this complex something is useful and necessary in its current form and use, adapting it "into something else" might sometimes be more problematic natural-selection-wise than developing something new while all existing organs do their current necessary job.

Yeah, one-dimensional thinking, or how was it.
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Old 15th September 2017, 05:31 AM   #108
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One thing has always concerned me...

Let's say a 4-legged creature has a simple mutation giving an extra pair of legs. Let's further say that an extra pair of legs gives a very slight survival advantage.

But who does this creature mate with? He's a 6-legged island in an ocean of 4-legged creatures. It seems like his advantage would be diluted away in subsequent generations, in a sort of regression to the mean.

And yet it does happen. Maybe it's only the very rare occurrence of a new population being isolated. Or a gene so dominant that only one parent needs to possess the 6-legged gene?

Not debating it does happen that way, it's just always puzzled me a bit.
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Old 15th September 2017, 05:48 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
One thing has always concerned me...

Let's say a 4-legged creature has a simple mutation giving an extra pair of legs. Let's further say that ann extra pair of legs gives a very slight survival advantage.

But who does this creature mate with? He's a 6-legged island in an ocean of 4-legged creatures. It seems like his advantage would be diluted away in subsequent generations, in a sort of regression to the mean.

And yet it does happen. Maybe it's only the very rare occurrence of a new population being isolated. Or a gene so dominant that only one parent needs to possess the 6-legged gene?

Not debating it does happen that way, it's just always puzzled me a bit.
This already puzzled Darwin, who was aware of the Regression to Mean problem - but that was before the discovery of Mendelian genetics and eventually the DNA code. The thing is that mating and mixing does NOT produce intermediate values of genetic information, it's always a discrete thing which either preserves a allel fully or loses it completely. This way, if a gene is favored by selection, it will multiply by a factor larger than 1, with all copies undiminished (unless another mutation occurs), or it disappears. Regression to Mean has little meaning in the discrete world of genes.

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Old 15th September 2017, 06:13 AM   #110
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In addition, the mutation doesn't actually need to provide an advantage (however you want to define that), but just needs to not result in a disadvantage. So "neutral" mutations can build up, and when a crisis hits (ie the environment in which the creature lives changes in some way) one or more of these mutations can come into their own.

At least that's what I thought was one mechanism...I may well be out of date.
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Old 15th September 2017, 06:26 AM   #111
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Thanks.

I actually did a project in school on Mendel and his peas.

I was kind of surprised to find that he and Darwin were contemporaries. I had assumed Mendel predated Darwin.

Oystein makes a good point. I think Dawkins makes it in "River Out Of Eden", emphasizing the digital nature of that river.

And we can't forget sexual selection - six legs might just trigger something in the opposite sex. It's even been proposed that bipedalism in primates could have arisen from something as simple a sexual selection. I think Dawkins brings this up in "The Ancestor's Tale".
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Old 15th September 2017, 06:38 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
It's even been proposed that bipedalism in primates could have arisen from something as simple a sexual selection. I think Dawkins brings this up in "The Ancestor's Tale".
Why is the doggy position so popular?
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Old 15th September 2017, 06:42 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I actually did a project in school on Mendel and his peas.

I was kind of surprised to find that he and Darwin were contemporaries. I had assumed Mendel predated Darwin.
Mendel's paper on hybridization in peas was published in 1866, 7 years after Origin; ironically it was pretty much ignored until the turn of the Century.
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Old 15th September 2017, 11:23 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The human body is perfect argument is a somewhat flawed argument. I suppose you have pointed out to your cousin some of the flaws in our bodies?

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2016/04/t...he-human-body/

Having a common canal for food and respiration is a flaw I am acutely aware of. I was intubated for a month many years back and suffer a bit of damage in that area, so often get something down my trachea. Dolphins have evolved beyond this flaw.
I did point out some of those things and he pulled the "We don't know God's reasons" argument.
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Old 15th September 2017, 12:10 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by korenyx View Post
[H]e pulled the "We don't know God's reasons" argument.
With, I assume, a straight face. Doesn't he realize these threads abound in wide-eyed types claiming there's a book (collection of books) that explicitly delineate "god's reasons"? And it's quite apparent he's never discussed the "perfect human body" with someone who has a modicum of medical expertise.

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Old 15th September 2017, 01:41 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by korenyx View Post
I did point out some of those things and he pulled the "We don't know God's reasons" argument.

That argument is the last line of defence for the theist. You have him on the ropes so go for the jugular.
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Old 15th September 2017, 02:03 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
That argument is the last line of defence for the theist. You have him on the ropes so go for the jugular.
With food and breath simultaneously?
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Old 15th September 2017, 07:03 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Let's say a 4-legged creature has a simple mutation giving an extra pair of legs... who does this creature mate with? He's a 6-legged island in an ocean of 4-legged creatures... And yet it does happen.
I don't believe that there has been such a case. Different fixed numbers of limbs have arisen from different backgrounds in different cases, but apparently not by changing from earlier fixed numbers.

The easiest case to illustrate is the arthropods. The basic original arthropod plan is essentially a segmented worm with an exoskeleton and a pair of limbs on each segment, and all segments & limbs identical. At this stage, the number of segments, and thus the number of limbs, is not fixed; it varies easily and without any particular consequences. Then the segments & limbs start differentiating and specializing. In all modern arthropods, the first few segments (although not the same number in all lineages) fuse into a head, and the limbs on those segments shrink and reshape into mouth parts. Modern centipedes have mostly stopped at that point, where the number of segments in that first section needs to be right so the head can have the proper structure, but behind that, it doesn't matter exactly how many copies of the generic non-head segments & limbs there are, and they come in a wide range of numbers, varying not just between species but also within them.

But other arthropod lineages tinker with the rest of the body some more. The remaining body segments can fuse into groups like an insect's thorax & abdomen, and separate series of limbs can become specialized for grabbing, walking, swimming, spinning silk, filtering food particles from water, or even breathing, or they can either be suppressed from growing at all, or even grow but be fused in place together to form a new bottom surface of the abdomen. When those differentiations & specializations happen, they happen to specific numbers of segments/limbs, thus locking down the total numbers. So different kinds of arthropods have different numbers of limbs in different sets, but all derived from an earlier state in which the number hadn't been fixed at all yet, rather than by changing from one fixed number to another.

Vertebrates do show some signs of a similar overall path, starting with segmentation and a high degree of repetition of parts and relatively free variation in numbers of copies, followed by differentiation between copies of what was originally the same kind of part, which settles the numbers down to an extent... but just not in our limbs. It shows up in our spines & ribs & associated muscles & nerve structures (more so in fish and snakes than in those of us with big limbs whose development also distorted the torso nearby), and in the repeated arches/loops of our circulatory systems (at least as embryos), and in our pharyngeal/"gill" arches. But no connection between this primitive vertebrate segmentation and limbs is apparent, because all known examples have no limbs at all or just the same few simple arrangements of limbs that seem to have no relationship to the segments of the torso. So again, although we can't tell what made the number what it was in the first place, once that number got set, no more were ever added to it.

That only seems to leave cephalopod tentacles. These are elongations of muscular structures around the mouth, like an elephant's trunk being an elongation of muscles of the nose & upper lip. What starts out as one or two masses (bilateral symmetry) splits into more separate parts soon after elongation begins, like the way the single stump of a growing human embryo's hand splits into five parts which then continue growing independently to form fingers. Sometimes, individual cephalopods have been found in which the number was abnormal because an extra split happened, just like a vertebrate limb with an extra finger/toe. This appears to have minimal effect on tentacle function and essentially none on fertility, but offspring don't inherit it.
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Old 15th September 2017, 07:51 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
I think consensus was that Amanda didn't do it.
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Old 15th September 2017, 11:37 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I don't believe that there has been such a case. Different fixed numbers of limbs have arisen from different backgrounds in different cases, but apparently not by changing from earlier fixed numbers.

The easiest case to illustrate is the arthropods. The basic original arthropod plan is essentially a segmented worm with an exoskeleton and a pair of limbs on each segment, ............

Thank you Delvo.

One of the pleasures of posting on forums like this is you get people who have in depth knowledge of something and give us a good and entertaining lesson.

What you write sounds plausible to me although my knowledge is somewhat limited in this area.
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