I'm a bit surprised at the harshness of Madrid's crackdown on the Catalan referendum due on 1st October. This heavy handed action by Madrid is likely to encourage a Yes vote, asssuming the referendum goes ahead in any form. Police rounding up separatists carrrying guns and bombs is quite in order; but arresting mayors and seizing ballot boxes is unusual behaviour in a democracy.
Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref
- Thread starter Craig B
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Belz...
Fiend God
I'm always torn when it comes to regional independance. On the one hand, groups of people should have the right to determine their own fate... on the other hand, countries need to be able to maintain order and national integrity.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Any democratic country faced with an illegal independence referendum would act in a similar manner. Siezing ballot boxes to be used in an illegal action and arresting mayors pushing an illegal action aren't outrageous or anything.
It is unusual, however, for a democracy to deny the people to have a say of matters they clearly want to have a say. Not that I support the Catalan independence, it's just as misguided populist action as the Brexit referendum was, but forcing the separatist leaders to make a clear and concise case for independence and then failing at referendum would be the proper way to go.
The state held a similar referendum in 2014, in which independence won by a landslide, but participation was in thirties or low forties at worst. In a straight up fair referendum, like the one in Scotland, Yes option would probably lose and the movement would die off for a generation or so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014#Results
What Catalan authorities are planning is akin to Crimean 'referendum'.
Spain did not stop an earlier vote taking place in November 2014, but this time the Catalan leadership plans a declaration of independence within 48 hours of a Yes vote.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41331152
It's clearly not a movement based on rationality and reason, but on emotions and, perhaps, foreign money.
McHrozni
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Silly me. Up to this point I was taking you seriously:
Anyway, my point is that if a Yes vote would be a bad thing in your opinion, is it sensible for Madrid to indulge in actions which can only strengthen the Yes side?
No it's not akin to the Crimean "referendum" in any way.
We may admit the existence of emotions in such a movement, but do you have evidence that it is procured by foreign money?
Anyway, my point is that if a Yes vote would be a bad thing in your opinion, is it sensible for Madrid to indulge in actions which can only strengthen the Yes side?
ddt
Mafia Penguin
I'm not sure about that. Is it a criminal matter to hold elections or plebiscites that do not conform to the electoral law (constitutional or otherwise)?
Suppose the Catalan government had, instead, ordered Ipsos Mori to conduct a poll with a sample size of 100%. Would that be illegal?
Agreed.
You're probably right in that.
You're not serious about, are you? Spain, and Catalonia has been a democracy with a free press for 40 years now.
The emotions certainly run deep. Ever since the Union of the Crowns in the 1400s, Catalonia has drawn the short stick compared to Castille. Under Franco, it was even forbidden to give your children Catalan first names. When the Saviour, JC, named his son Jordi, that was an act of public defiance (and he could only do so because Jordi was born in Amsterdam, not in Barcelona). Of course, the current government isn't the oppressive Franco regime anymore and gives regions a fair amount of autonomy, but such resentments are not gone in a generation.
Of course, a marked difference with the Scottish referendum would be EU membership. Given Madrid's reaction to the referendum, they would fight tooth and nail to prohibit an independent Catalonia from acceding to the EU.
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Childlike Empress
Banned
Another important difference. Crimea wasn't voting for an independent Crimea. it was voting about being annexed by a country whose troops had recently been sent Into the peninsula for the purpose of securing that annexation.
Yet another difference. Most of the population of the Crimea is Russian speaking, in part because the proportions of other ethnic groups, like Tatars and Pontic Greeks, were reduced by expulsion in Stalin's time.
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If they claimed it had legal validity and take unconstitutional actions based on the results of the poll, then no, it would not be legal.
I said akin to as in similar to, not identical to. There are important differences between the two referendums but there are also important similarities. Both referendums were at odds with the constitution of the country and both promise a swift and complete change of status of the territory, without any sort of negotiation, preparations or indeed anything you need to do before independance.
Yup and this referendum is aimed at nurishing those resentments. It's not a serious attempt at independence, there have been no serious proposals or debate of how to go about being independent, the fact the leaders intend to announce independence within 48 hours of a yes vote is indicative of that.
I suspect the usual suspects.
https://twitter.com/XSovietNews/status/909672817347715072
McHrozni
Sure, there are important differences, but important similarities as well.
If Scotland achieved 80% yes vote in the 2014 referendum, it wouldn't declare independence within 48 hours of the vote. That would come months, maybe even a couple of years later.
McHrozni
That's the similarity, is it? The difference, by contrast, is a Russian military invasion and de facto annexation.
May I say that I think the differences are greater than the alleged similarities.
Sure and I won't disagree.
However there are far more similarities between what Catalan leaders are attempting and Crimea than there are between what Catalan leaders are attempting and, say, Velvet divorce.
McHrozni
The differerence may reside in the features which distinguish Czechoslovakia from Spain, or the United Kingdom for that matter. The latter two polities each passed through a period of imperial hegemony shortly after the heartlands, Castile and England, effectively absorbed their immediate neighbours. The memory of this, happily now departed, imperial sway has made these states unwilling to relinquish control over what they perceive as peripheral areas of their own territory. That was seen violently in Ireland, and non-violently in Scotland more recently.
But Czechoslovakia had no such imperial history, and could contemplate territorial adjustments with equanimity.
The historic reasons for the difference, according to my thesis, are not about what the Catalans are doing, because it's much the same as what several other peoples have been doing in recent decades. The difference is in the character of the state with which they have to deal. So I'm disagreeing with your claims of similarities between Catalan behaviour in Catalonia, and Russian behaviour in Crimea. In fact I can see no real similarity at all.
And if the outcome of the Catalan separatist project turns out differently from the Velvet divorce, I'm saying that's basically because of the historic differences between the Czechoslovak state and Spain, not because of any real difference between Catalans and Slovaks.
So the "good reasons" for the differences invalidate the point you were making about "what Catalan leaders are attempting", in my estimation.
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
Reminder re Czechoslovakia: It was mostly done by two corrupt politicians (with some backing by their own corrupt parties) who wanted their own power. Most of regular citizens didn't want split. It was done against wishes of populations.
That's part of the difference, I think. In Spain and the UK, when corrupt politicians and parties, (as well as some honest ones, I suppose) want their own power, they try to prevent the country from splitting; they don't encourage it.
Belgian thought
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Some of the arguments from the Independent Parties are truly laughable.
We will still be in the EU - Err... No
Barcelona will still play in La Liga - Err... No
A lot of the supporters are children from non Catalanionan families, youth who witnessed the austerity post 2008.
The stench of a Hitler youth brigade comes to mind.
It is very ugly.
We will still be in the EU - Err... No
Barcelona will still play in La Liga - Err... No
A lot of the supporters are children from non Catalanionan families, youth who witnessed the austerity post 2008.
The stench of a Hitler youth brigade comes to mind.
It is very ugly.
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I think it is an exaggeration to suggest that Catalan independence movement is a stinking Hitler Youth operation promoted by non-Catalans as a post 2008 development. Such preposterous characterisations weaken rather than strengthen the unionist cause.
In any case, such accusations could be made against the ruling Popular Party in Madrid, of which wiki states
The party has its roots in the People's Alliance founded on 9 October 1976 by former Francoist minister Manuel Fraga. Although Fraga was a member of the reformist faction of the Franco regime, he supported an extremely gradual transition to democracy. However, he badly underestimated the public's distaste for Francoism. Additionally, while he attempted to convey a reformist image, the large number of former Francoists in the party led the public to perceive it as both reactionary and authoritarian.
Yet it has adapted itself to post-Phalangist democracy and therefore can't simply be denounced as a stinking bunch of fascists.May I say that separatism in Catalonia predates 2008, and indeed was an element in the politics of the Spanish Republic before the Civil War. See Lluis CompanysWP
Darth Rotor
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What lessons can the Spanish government apply vis a vis their long standing difficulty with the Basque separatists to the Catalonian question? I am hoping that someone from Spain, or who has lived for a long time in Spain, can explain because I quite frankly don't understand Spanish internal politics with the kind of depth that would offer me a hint of an answer.
Belgian thought
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Perhaps not, but there are apparent stories which had parents forbidding their kids from playing with Castilian speaking children.
Age perhaps but, I see the 1970s again, and not just in Spain.
ETA - Very depressing
I really need some evidence in addition to "apparent stories" that anti-Castilian prejudice motivates the Catalan independence movement. I will explain why. During the 2014 Indyref campaign in Scotland similar accusations - of Anglophobia - were made against the Yes campaign. I never saw any evidence in reality that they were in any way true. And in fact once the campaign was over, such accusations of mass anglophobia among Scottish independence supporters promptly disappeared. They had done their work, and were no longer required.
As to language; under the rule of the Phalange, of which today's ruling party in Spain is an emanation, official use of the Catalan language was banned. That would be no justification for harassing Castilian speakers, needless to state; but some evidence of that would be appreciated.
Belgian thought
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Yeah - you are probably right and I only hear these stories after work.
I am working in Spain and the stories seem to get worse every day.
Things I heard this evening:
Kids in Catalonia are now being used to make people vote by putting up posters in their school - proof of indoctrination is the current motto.
Police have been called in from Andalusia since the police in Barcelona do not want to deal with the situation. The order being given, to these outsiders, is do what you want, do not get videoed and do not kill anyone.
All I know verbatim is that my colleague in Barcelona, who is fluent in Castilian and accent free, is putting on a British accented Spanish when ordering things. He is leaving tomorrow and I will have a handover session tomorrow evening when he gets back to Spain
ETA - In Spain it seems everyone knows someone who said etc....
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This BBC report doesn't make it look like anti-Castilian prejudice in these schools.
Teachers and students at some schools in Catalonia are organising to keep schools open to serve as polling stations for Sunday's outlawed referendum on independence from Spain.
Coded messages are being sent on social media to make arrangements ...
Coded messages are being sent on social media to make arrangements ...
Rolfe
Adult human female
There were people in England who believed similar rubbish about the Scottish independence movement in 2014, because unionists spread a pack of lies to discredit us. Sounds like someone in Spain is operating from the same playbook.
You do know that the Catalonia'n nationalists have tried in vain for many years to negotiate with the Spanish central government, right? The Spanish authorities have been stubbornly refusing any kind of accommodations or even serious negotiations with the separatists. They have simply been stonewalling any negotiations and refusing even to contemplate amending the constitution.
This is nonchalance is the main reason for why the separatists have been pushing for a referendum even if it's against the law The uncompromising response from Spain has only served to move the public not just towards supporting independence but also supporting the referendum, even those who are against independence now seem heavily in favor of having a referendum.
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
Wow, Madrid just ********** that up. I saw the video coming out of a polling station where the police in riot gear used batons to break the glass and enter the building full of reporters and election volunteers. The Spanish Police just wrote the propaganda for the Catalonians. They should have let the referendum go an ignored the results.
The Roman empire I assume. the division between England and Scotland being that of the limit of the Roman empire.
No it wasn't. Anyway as my post states, I was referring to the imperial experience of the UK, not the borders that have separated England and Scotland. In the days of Rome the Scots were not yet in Scotland, nor the Angles in England anyway.
Strawberry
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I cannot believe the scenes I'm seeing on television this morning. Why didn't the Spanish government just let the referendum go ahead and then ignore the result and declare it illegal?
Their stupid over reaction has probably ensured that Catalonia will become independent at some stage.
Their stupid over reaction has probably ensured that Catalonia will become independent at some stage.
Archie Gemmill Goal
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While the overreaction is indeed stupid I'm not sure you can just ignore the result of a referendum either. I guess what Spain is discovering is that should a people desire independence you cannot thwart it by any means in the end.
If my information is correct the referendum was going to end with a "no" answer. But the idiotic reaction of the Spanish government will create resentment for years and will increase the nationalistic feelings for many Catalans.
They knew that voting yes and becoming independent would have excluded them from the European Union for several years with no guarantee to be able to join the EU as they could potentially have faced a Spanish veto. Now they might consider this issue otherwise.
They knew that voting yes and becoming independent would have excluded them from the European Union for several years with no guarantee to be able to join the EU as they could potentially have faced a Spanish veto. Now they might consider this issue otherwise.
We in Scotland were told these things too. Then our bigger union member took us out of the EU.
Scots too, I sincerely hope.
The situation in Spain is different though. I don't think Spain is considering to withdraw from the EU, even if the way the Spanish government is dealing with this looks like a serious blow to democracy.
Future will tell but this would be a logic outcome...
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
There is a long history of violence and oppression of a historical minority, the Catalan people, by Castile. On the Iberian peninsula, only Portugal succeeded in fending off the armies of the virulently ethnocentric absolutists (Bourbons). Following the Peace of WestphaliaWP and ensuing imposition of Bourbon centralism in Spain, the Catalans were finally put down in 1714 in the Siege of BarcelonaWP. These are a people whose own history, when independent, was characterized by semi-democratic institutions and functioning, always with the sense of being a people and a nation, with their own language and customs, as old as those of Castilian Spain.
To put events in context, think of the US as losing its War of Independence in roughly similar times, yet retaining own identity and wishing to gain what was lost. You can imagine that, since 1776, many attempts would continue to be made to secure independence.
Recall that there are serious flaws in democracy, two of which are the dangers of mob rule, another that of the oppression of permanent minorities by a majority culture, race, religion, or ethnic group. The first is why voting results are constrained by both constitutional law and human rights, and the working of government by delegated representation. The second requires redress by the courts in defense of whatever rights or domain of action are being repressed. To make a long story short, the attempts by Catalonia to recover its language and identity after 40 years of the latest round of dictatorship have been met by "federal" law forcing a common language and identity. (A constant tug of war whose detail I avoid.)
As to the constitution, it was voted on with rattling sabers in the background. The choice of "no" was impossible, as that could've emboldened the fascists to decide democracy itself had been rejected. Proof of those sabers came on Feb 28, 1978, when the same paramilitary police now bloodying old ladies on Barcelona streets entered Las Cortes (parliament) and staged an attempted coup. (Anecdotally, these were my years of strenuous argument with the abundant fascists in Madrid society at the time, as well as the equally totalitarian-minded and culturally-centralist PSOE, the "socialist" party.)
For those looking for a smoking gun proving Madrid's anti-Catalan bias in policy, it can be found in the oft-sought but EU-nixed high-speed line through the central Pyrenees, empty country on both sides, in contrast with its extreme foot-dragging on much-needed new passenger and freight lines extending down Spain's east coast, past its largest ports, and its two major exporting regions, Catalonia and Valencia. Or, more anecdotally, simply listen to Star Trek Next Generation, for which the Catalan-sounding name of Geordi ("Jordi") LaForge was translated as the non-existent "Jorday." (No other main character's name was unnecessarily changed in any other TV series over the last 4 decades, to the best of my knowledge.)
To put events in context, think of the US as losing its War of Independence in roughly similar times, yet retaining own identity and wishing to gain what was lost. You can imagine that, since 1776, many attempts would continue to be made to secure independence.
Recall that there are serious flaws in democracy, two of which are the dangers of mob rule, another that of the oppression of permanent minorities by a majority culture, race, religion, or ethnic group. The first is why voting results are constrained by both constitutional law and human rights, and the working of government by delegated representation. The second requires redress by the courts in defense of whatever rights or domain of action are being repressed. To make a long story short, the attempts by Catalonia to recover its language and identity after 40 years of the latest round of dictatorship have been met by "federal" law forcing a common language and identity. (A constant tug of war whose detail I avoid.)
As to the constitution, it was voted on with rattling sabers in the background. The choice of "no" was impossible, as that could've emboldened the fascists to decide democracy itself had been rejected. Proof of those sabers came on Feb 28, 1978, when the same paramilitary police now bloodying old ladies on Barcelona streets entered Las Cortes (parliament) and staged an attempted coup. (Anecdotally, these were my years of strenuous argument with the abundant fascists in Madrid society at the time, as well as the equally totalitarian-minded and culturally-centralist PSOE, the "socialist" party.)
For those looking for a smoking gun proving Madrid's anti-Catalan bias in policy, it can be found in the oft-sought but EU-nixed high-speed line through the central Pyrenees, empty country on both sides, in contrast with its extreme foot-dragging on much-needed new passenger and freight lines extending down Spain's east coast, past its largest ports, and its two major exporting regions, Catalonia and Valencia. Or, more anecdotally, simply listen to Star Trek Next Generation, for which the Catalan-sounding name of Geordi ("Jordi") LaForge was translated as the non-existent "Jorday." (No other main character's name was unnecessarily changed in any other TV series over the last 4 decades, to the best of my knowledge.)
Archie Gemmill Goal
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The other amusing (no that's not the word, sickening maybe?) aspect of this is watching the Scottish Britnats of Labour and Tory ilk tying themselves in knots trying to defend the Spanish actions and somehow manage to criticise the SNP.
Up to and including denouncing the very idea of self-determination.
Up to and including denouncing the very idea of self-determination.
I've seen some pretty clear examples of excessive force used by federal police forces in an attempt to stop the referendum from taking place. Kicking and punching people (even in the head) for simply offering passive resistance. Shooting masses of largely non-violent protesters with beanbags simply because they refused to disperse.
Despite this they have, from what i can tell, seemingly failed to close down enough voting locations to stop it. Of course Madrid will proclaim that the election was illegitimate no matter what but by their actions they have simply given the separatists moral authority.
Despite this they have, from what i can tell, seemingly failed to close down enough voting locations to stop it. Of course Madrid will proclaim that the election was illegitimate no matter what but by their actions they have simply given the separatists moral authority.
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
Or returned to being that.
ddt
Mafia Penguin
Yes, but as to the latter: no-one in Spain is intending to exit the EU.
As to the former: For Catalonia, it is a near-certainty that Spain would be vetoing an application for EU membership - just look at this crackdown now. For Scotland, it was never raised during the campaign for Indyref that the UK would be vetoing a Scottish application, but on the other hand, it was much hyped that Spain would be doing so (which was not supported by pronunciations from Spanish politicians BTW).