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Tags Catalonia incidents , Catalonia issues , independence movements , separatist movements , Spain incidents , Spain issues , Spain politics

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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:35 PM   #521
Planigale
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
What race?
This is a fair question.

I do not think I could tell the difference between a Tutsi and a Hutu, but they were real enough to perpetrate a genocide, I do not think I could distinguish a Northern Irish catholic from a protestant (apparently it comes down to the letter J), but there is certainly a poster here who will detail the consequences of the difference. Clearly to Iberians, Castillians are different in nature from Catalans.

so we have posters here saying;
"Castilian Spain have sent their unemployed and internal migrants to Catalonia for Catalans to employ and feed them and as a result about half of the make-up of Catalonia's population come from people born in other places of Spain during the last century, hence there are so many "Catalans" against independence (Any Spanish citizen can vote, not only Catalonia's natives. Any person can be polled by Gallup, not only Spanish citizens but illegal immigrants who fear to lose their jobs in an independent Catalonia and will declare to the pollsters to be citizens)
... basically the hard working people (Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, Basque Country, Navarra, Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia, Balearic Islands) feeding the imperialists (Castile, mainly Madrid, and Leon) and the any-time-of-day-is-good-for-a-siesta bumps (Extremadura, Andalusia, Murcia, Canary Islands)."

and another poster;
"What is becoming abundantly clear to many Catalans today is that Castilians are, as their historic track record indicates, abusive chauvinists who can brook no challenge to their cultural hegemony, and will use force still now, in the 21st century, with the same sadistic glee they did in the last century and before."

So we have a concept that there are 'proper' Catalans and those that are not proper Catalans and do not support independence. That Catalans are harder working than non Catalan Iberians. That non-Catalans are sadistic and abusive. Some how millions of people are being lumped together as being morally and intellectually inferior (slow learners) to Catalans.

I am not ashamed to call people out on this.

If Hlafordaes has scientific papers to demonstrate that Castillians are slower learners than Catalans then he can reference the papers - this is a skeptic site and people should be called upon to provide evidence of their claims. He can also provide evidence that central tendency is a reasonable way to attribute characteristics to a whole population with no evidence of skew, normality, mono polarity or distribution.
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Old 7th November 2017, 01:33 AM   #522
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Given the doubts above, I'll share a tidbit from something that will be published in a future book. It is the Castilians, I am afraid, who are often quick, in myriad small and large ways, to set themselves apart. This is normally referred to as cultural chauvinism. To wit:

Quote:
That Madrid-Barcelona axis, today loaded with political turbulence, did not garner the reception that the attempt deserved, despite the evident fact that ongoing dialogue between the two cities, between Castile and the coast, between the center and the periphery, has been synonymous with very heartbeat of this complex nation, so fond of football, such that it can be fairly said that this sport is one of the few sentimental bonds that survive intact in this era of frank estrangement.
Catalonia can barely be mentioned by name, just referenced obliquely in this paean to a single place as symbolic of the best of the nation, with the team of one city being held up as a the national team, in spite of their actually being, ahem, an actual national team. There is chapter after chapter like this, all an ode to a mythical, pure center, and the vassals who should willingly fall at their shining feet. The prologue by the King is even more barf-inducing.

Add this to the real, practical example of massively distorted industrial investment policy already provided, and you have more than attitude, you have its praxis as well. This is in addition to cuffing the arrested political prisoners and strip-searching at least two of them, and all the loud chauvinism broadcast on the government news channels any time this topic arises. And, as topping, the many times fascist thugs have been caught on camera in recent weeks surrounding a Catalan and asking him/her to swear loyalty while punching and kicking. Just like Hitler's little friends in brown shirts last century.
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Old 7th November 2017, 06:11 AM   #523
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I heard an interesting little titbit. In one of the Star Trek series, might be Voyager I'm not sure, one of the characters has a Catalan name. That was the only name changed when the series was dubbed into Spanish and broadcast in Spain. Can't have a character with a Catalan name, apparently!
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Old 7th November 2017, 06:14 AM   #524
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Good Lord!

https://twitter.com/CataloniaHelp2/s...50494156066816
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:12 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Has the EU commented yet?

It seems that the EU has been fine with chastising Austria, Poland and Hungary but is shying away from criticism of Spain... why?
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:45 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see someone is playing semantics to avoid the point.
Person 1: I really dislike people who smoke.
Person 2: That's racist!
Person 1: What the hell does race have to do with this?
Person 3: I see someone is playing semantics to avoid the point.

You don't get to accuse someone of racism unless they're treating an actual ethnic group as inferiors. In some cases, semantics are important.
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:47 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What's it say?
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Old 7th November 2017, 11:08 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What's it say?
Spanish authorities limit family visits to Catalan Government only once every 3 months
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Old 7th November 2017, 11:13 AM   #529
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Hmmm...
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Old 7th November 2017, 02:28 PM   #530
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Now this.

https://twitter.com/CataloniaHelp2/s...12025698713600

Official documents in Catalonia decreed to be written in Castilian Spanish, not in Catalan. Spain has tried to stamp out the Catalan language before, looks as if it's gearing up for another go. There are reports of Spanish thugs confronting Catalans and demanding that they swear alleigiance to the Spanish state, in Spanish.

This isn't pretty.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:27 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Has the EU commented yet?

It seems that the EU has been fine with chastising Austria, Poland and Hungary but is shying away from criticism of Spain... why?
Good question. What Spain is doing is antithetical to European espoused values. Spain has locked up legislators for casting a vote.

I'm agnostic on the topic of Catalonian independence. However, to jail a legislator for voting is clearly, just wrong. You can nullify the votes in court. You can nullify the vote through a national assembly. You can ignore the vote. You can't legitimately call yourself a democracy when voting becomes a crime.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:57 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Now this.

https://twitter.com/CataloniaHelp2/s...12025698713600

Official documents in Catalonia decreed to be written in Castilian Spanish, not in Catalan. Spain has tried to stamp out the Catalan language before, looks as if it's gearing up for another go. There are reports of Spanish thugs confronting Catalans and demanding that they swear alleigiance to the Spanish state, in Spanish.

This isn't pretty.
Is there a more reliable reference than twitter?

My limited search finds that whereas previously all official catalan government documents had to be in catalan and castilian was not allowed (denying language rights to the castilian minority in catalonia?), this rule is now withdrawn and either language is permitted; I can not find that catalan is banned.

However, I can not find a reliable reference, so I may be wrong and am almost certainly inaccurate.
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Old 17th November 2017, 09:55 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Good question. What Spain is doing is antithetical to European espoused values. Spain has locked up legislators for casting a vote.

I'm agnostic on the topic of Catalonian independence. However, to jail a legislator for voting is clearly, just wrong. You can nullify the votes in court. You can nullify the vote through a national assembly. You can ignore the vote. You can't legitimately call yourself a democracy when voting becomes a crime.
Couldn't agree more.
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Next village up the road, for historical reasons mostly immigrant Castilians, has some of its Catalan neighbors complaining they now fear to walk about the town. In major cities in which Catalans might be found, there have been some very ugly incidents involving fascist thugs in recent weeks. Reminds me soooo much of Paco's Paradise, the Spiritual Reserve of the West, aka, Barf Central.
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Old 21st December 2017, 12:43 PM   #534
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Just a bump:

"Catalonia polls close after voters turn out in force

Polls suggest region is set for hung parliament, with pro-independence ERC vying for first place with unionist Citizens party. Follow the latest developments"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...ion-spain-live
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Old 21st December 2017, 02:22 PM   #535
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From a Reuters tweet:

"With over 50 pct of Catalan vote counted, pro-independence parties have absolute majority.
This makes uncomfortable viewing for PM Rajoy."
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Old 21st December 2017, 02:41 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Just a bump:

"Catalonia polls close after voters turn out in force

Polls suggest region is set for hung parliament, with pro-independence ERC vying for first place with unionist Citizens party. Follow the latest developments"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...ion-spain-live
Thank you for the bump.

It's a bizarre election, with one party leader, Oriol Junqeras (ERC) in jail with 7 others, and another, Carles Puigdemont (JuntsxCat), who's fled the country with 4 others. I think the last time a prisoner was elected to parliament in democratic Europe was in the 1981 Fermanagh and South Tyrone by-election.

And with the breakup of the broad pro-independence JxSí coalition, you can put all political parties in a neat matrix:

left-wingright-wing
pro-independenceERCJuntsxCat
CUP (far-left) 
anti-independencePSOE (1) (social-democratic)Citizens (liberal)
CatComú (2) (far-left)PP (1) (conservative to Francist)
(1) Spanish-wide party
(2) Catalan sister party of Podemos

And as each of the quadrants will get roughly 25% of the votes, it will get very hard to form a coalition. Obviously, it will be nigh impossible to get parties from diagonally opposite quadrants in one government.


Originally Posted by Giz View Post
From a Reuters tweet:

"With over 50 pct of Catalan vote counted, pro-independence parties have absolute majority.
This makes uncomfortable viewing for PM Rajoy."
The last prediction on that Guardian page gives them 71 out of 135 seats, which is a majority but not a very convincing one, and actually 1 seat less than in the 2015 elections.
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Old 21st December 2017, 02:49 PM   #537
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According to this tweet, after 84% of the vote counted, pro-independence parties have 48% of the vote but would get 70 out of 135 seats, i.e., a slim majority.
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Old 21st December 2017, 03:02 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
According to this tweet, after 84% of the vote counted, pro-independence parties have 48% of the vote but would get 70 out of 135 seats, i.e., a slim majority.
Yes, it appears to be a fairly disappointing result for everyone.
- A majority favor independence, but only by a whisker
- The deposed president (in exile in Brussels could be the new president, but without the ability to wield executive power)
- The largest single party is pro-union

We will have to see if Madrid can calm things down or if they will behave like fascist bully boys (again).
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Old 21st December 2017, 04:05 PM   #539
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Yes, it appears to be a fairly disappointing result for everyone.
- A majority favor independence, but only by a whisker
A slim majority in seats, but not in a majority in votes; like last time in 2015, the pro-independence parties only got 48% of the votes.
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
- The deposed president (in exile in Brussels could be the new president, but without the ability to wield executive power)
- The largest single party is pro-union

We will have to see if Madrid can calm things down or if they will behave like fascist bully boys (again).
I certainly hope that Rajoy comes to his senses and will release the imprisoned and sit at the negotiation table.

And to update my previous table with the election results:

left-wing right-wing 
pro-independenceERC32JuntsxCat34
CUP (far-left)4  
neutralCatComú (2) (far-left)8  
anti-independencePSOE (1) (social-democratic)17Citizens (liberal)37
PP (1) (conservative to Francist)3
(1) Spanish-wide party
(2) Catalan sister party of Podemos, in favour of a referendum on independence

Good luck in finding a working government majority in that...
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Old 21st December 2017, 06:52 PM   #540
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I think the UN should make a new law declaring how and under what conditions an independence movements needs to be recognized by a country.
Keep those idiots out of it.
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is a frankly racist post. You are attributing particular negative attributes to a collection of people defined by their race.
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Surely it's culturalist?
Chauvinist.
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I do not think I could tell the difference between a Tutsi and a Hutu, but they were real enough to perpetrate a genocide, I do not think I could distinguish a Northern Irish catholic from a protestant (apparently it comes down to the letter J), but there is certainly a poster here who will detail the consequences of the difference. Clearly to Iberians, Castillians are different in nature from Catalans. {snip}

If Hlafordaes has scientific papers to demonstrate that Castillians are slower learners than Catalans then he can reference the papers - this is a skeptic site and people should be called upon to provide evidence of their claims. He can also provide evidence that central tendency is a reasonable way to attribute characteristics to a whole population with no evidence of skew, normality, mono polarity or distribution.
You are more likely to just get another blast of wind.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
A slim majority in seats, but not in a majority in votes; like last time in 2015, the pro-independence parties only got 48% of the votes.
{snip}
Good luck in finding a working government majority in that...
They appear to prefer a perpetual scrum. Glad to see that the voting seems to have gone better than the one a few months ago. The Spanish and the Catalans have cleverly taken their country off of my travel list. It appears that the only place in Europe that we might travel to is Greece, due to my sister in law's urging and her relatives there, or Ireland, which my wife insists I travel to before I get too much older. The tentative plan for a Danube cruise got scuppered by a certain hurricane and a roof.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 02:27 AM   #541
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Those in doubt should consider the significant level of FUD thrown around by Madrid, and, unlike, say, Scotland or Quebec, a Catalonia voting to separate would get zero cooperation in recovering the significant ensuing monies owed by Madrid, such as paid-in health and pension benefits, much less anything smacking of reason or fairness. This has significantly depressed what would be the independence vote under a democratic, fair-minded, and good-faith government. If Spain -- fat chance -- were to act in proper democratic good faith, the independence vote would become an overwhelming majority.

Yet in spite of all that, ha ha ha ha ha!!! Castilians are slowly getting outed globally for exactly what they are with respect to "the conquered." There's now dirty talk regarding the annual celebration of the 1714 defeat of Catalonia (by the Borbon monarchy's absolutist stormtroops), called "La Diada," to declare it as an act of sedition, including retroactively... precedents around the globe of other cultures celebrating famous defeats notwithstanding, not to mention longstanding local custom. Jackboots in October, now this. Losers.


ETA: BTW, I just finished translating a book, unfortunately under NDA. If I could, I'd post a factual litany of fascist idiocy taken as "culture" that would leave hairs standing on end.
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Old 28th December 2017, 06:54 PM   #542
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I think the UN should make a new law declaring how and under what conditions an independence movements needs to be recognized by a country.

Popularity of independence, public referendum without foreign influence and intervention, history of persecution, history of nationalist feeling, unique cultural attributes should all be considered.
I'm sorry but having interacted with the UN several times in Africa, that's a terrible idea in practice though a good one in theory. The UN will be paralyzed by their own democracy. I can't even begin to wrap my head around the idea that the UN could come up with a mandate (the UN does nothing without one) based on all those criteria. You'd have some of the smartest people in the world in a paralysis by analysis with those criteria.
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Old 29th December 2017, 03:10 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
... The Spanish and the Catalans have cleverly taken their country off of my travel list. It appears that the only place in Europe that we might travel to is Greece, due to my sister in law's urging and her relatives there, or Ireland, which my wife insists I travel to before I get too much older.
Barcelona may not be very gravely distressed by your absence.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 05:40 AM   #544
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A Spanish supreme court judge has charged 13 senior Catalan leaders, including the region’s deposed president and the candidate chosen to succeed him, with rebellion over their roles in last year’s unilateral referendum and subsequent declaration of independence.

The charges, announced on Friday morning by Judge Pablo Llarena, carry a maximum sentence of 30 years’ imprisonment and were brought against both Carles Puigdemont, the former president in exile in Belgium, and Jordi Turul, who faces a vote on Saturday to take up the post.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ar-court-spain
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Old 27th March 2018, 12:05 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
A Spanish supreme court judge has charged 13 senior Catalan leaders, including the region’s deposed president and the candidate chosen to succeed him, with rebellion over their roles in last year’s unilateral referendum and subsequent declaration of independence.

The charges, announced on Friday morning by Judge Pablo Llarena, carry a maximum sentence of 30 years’ imprisonment and were brought against both Carles Puigdemont, the former president in exile in Belgium, and Jordi Turul, who faces a vote on Saturday to take up the post.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ar-court-spain
SPain is slipping rapidly back to the good old days of Francisco Franco...

I repeiat, they should have just let them have the referendum, say it was not legally binding, then ignore the situation as much as possible. I am convinced a lot of voters who were not that enthusiastic about the Catalan Independence Party voted for the Parties in the pariliamenary elections as a protest.
Think Ireland 1916,where the ham fisted actions of the British Government drove many moderate Home Rulers into the arms of Sinn Finn...
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Old 27th March 2018, 12:12 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Think Ireland 1916,where the ham fisted actions of the British Government drove many moderate Home Rulers into the arms of Sinn Finn...
Or, in the eloquent words of Princess Leia:
"The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers"

Hopefully Spain and Catalonia (whether in or out) can get through this without becoming a Basque-et case.
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Old 27th March 2018, 12:25 PM   #547
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SPain is slipping rapidly back to the good old days of Francisco Franco...

I repeiat, they should have just let them have the referendum, say it was not legally binding, then ignore the situation as much as possible. I am convinced a lot of voters who were not that enthusiastic about the Catalan Independence Party voted for the Parties in the pariliamenary elections as a protest.
Think Ireland 1916,where the ham fisted actions of the British Government drove many moderate Home Rulers into the arms of Sinn Finn...
I agree with you.

Meanwhile, Puigdemont has been arrested in Germany. In Belgium, his extradition request is still pending in the courts. He went to Finland to give a lecture, Spain got wind of that and re-activated the European Arrest Warrant. He tried to evade capture by going back by car instead of by plane, and got arrested when crossing the Danish-German border.
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Old 27th March 2018, 12:50 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I agree with you.

Meanwhile, Puigdemont has been arrested in Germany. In Belgium, his extradition request is still pending in the courts. He went to Finland to give a lecture, Spain got wind of that and re-activated the European Arrest Warrant. He tried to evade capture by going back by car instead of by plane, and got arrested when crossing the Danish-German border.
Ah, the EU in 2018. People peacefully advocating for self determination are being held as political prisoners.
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Old 27th March 2018, 02:07 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Ah, the EU in 2018. People peacefully advocating for self determination are being held as political prisoners.
Not so pessimistic. The European Arrest Warrant (EAW) is a great tool to quickly seize common criminals and bring them back to justice in the country they fled. The downside is that the EAW can be abused by an EU state for political prosecutions. AFAIK, Puigdemont is the first test case of that, and the response of other states' courts thus far shows they don't want to play along.

See the summary here at wiki: On 3 November, a Spanish judge issued the EAW against Puigdemont when he didn't appear in court. On 5 November, he surrendered voluntarily to the Belgian police, and was released on bail pending court proceedings. On 5 December, Spain withdrew the EAW because the Belgian court had problems with it:
Quote:
Llarena said he had been moved to act after becoming aware of a discrepancy between Belgian and Spanish law that would limit the charges under which the Catalans could be extradited and therefore be charged on their return.
[...]
The only charge on which the Belgians would have agreed to extradition was believed to be the lesser one of misuse of public funds for which the accused would be fined and banned from holding public office but not imprisoned.
Spain has now reissued the EAW and the German authorities had no choice but to arrest him. According to Der Spiegel (German), thus far the presiding judge only had to judge whether (a) the EAW had been properly filled out, and (b) he was a flight risk, in order to detain Puigdemont, but not yet on the substance. Nevertheless, she wrote an ominous sentence in her verdict:
Quote:
There is no question that the content of the European arrest warrant provides indications that the extradition of the person pursued could be judged inadmissible on the basis of a thorough examination, taking into account the legal issues involved.
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Old 27th March 2018, 02:18 PM   #550
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Not so pessimistic. The European Arrest Warrant (EAW) is a great tool to quickly seize common criminals and bring them back to justice in the country they fled. The downside is that the EAW can be abused by an EU state for political prosecutions. AFAIK, Puigdemont is the first test case of that, and the response of other states' courts thus far shows they don't want to play along.

See the summary here at wiki: On 3 November, a Spanish judge issued the EAW against Puigdemont when he didn't appear in court. On 5 November, he surrendered voluntarily to the Belgian police, and was released on bail pending court proceedings. On 5 December, Spain withdrew the EAW because the Belgian court had problems with it:

Spain has now reissued the EAW and the German authorities had no choice but to arrest him. According to Der Spiegel (German), thus far the presiding judge only had to judge whether (a) the EAW had been properly filled out, and (b) he was a flight risk, in order to detain Puigdemont, but not yet on the substance. Nevertheless, she wrote an ominous sentence in her verdict:
My understanding of the EAW was that the offense only had to be illegal in the jurisdiction issuing the warrant. It did not need to be a offense where the warrant was served.

I suppose we shall see if he is sent back behind the Iberian Curtain.
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Old 27th March 2018, 03:51 PM   #551
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
My understanding of the EAW was that the offense only had to be illegal in the jurisdiction issuing the warrant. It did not need to be a offense where the warrant was served.

I suppose we shall see if he is sent back behind the Iberian Curtain.
I'm too lazy to go to the primary texts, but wiki tells me that double criminality as a requirement is removed for a wide range of crimes - but sedition or rebellion is not among them - and is discretionary to the judge for other crimes.

Another problem, as I gather. is that the crime of sedition in Spanish law requires violence or incitement to violence as an element. That's going to be hard to pin on Puigdemont.
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Old 29th March 2018, 06:19 AM   #552
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While all eyes are on Puigdemont, there were a couple of more members of his government who have fled. Dutch newspaper NRC gives a small overview in this article.

Former Minister of Education Clara Ponsatí i Obiols has returned to her post as economics professor at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland, a post she also held before 2017. She had initially fled with Puigdemont to Belgium and returned to Scotland last month. She's released on bail.

Former ministers Antonio Comín, Lluís Puig, and Meritxell Serret, who fled alongside Puigdemont to Belgium, are still there and have to report again to the Belgian authorities for the re-issued EAW.

Finally, last week former Catalan MP Marta Rovira fled to Switzerland. In November, she had stayed in Spain and was indicted, but chose to flee after the judge ordered jail pending the upcoming trial last week. According to the NRC article, the Swiss authorities have already signaled to Spain that they don't want to play along.

Another MP, Anna Gabriel from the hard-left pro-independence CUP, already fled to Switzerland last month when summoned to a court hearing, but apparently, no arrest warrant has been issued for her (yet).
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Old 29th March 2018, 05:33 PM   #553
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On the other hand, the less said about the obvious hatred that a person on this thread has toward Castillian Spainards in general the better. That is really beneath comtempt.
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