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Tags Catalonia incidents , Catalonia issues , independence movements , separatist movements , Spain incidents , Spain issues , Spain politics

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Old 1st October 2017, 11:06 AM   #41
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Film of the local police forces trying to stop the forces that have been shipped in from attacking voters.

What a mess.
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Old 1st October 2017, 01:16 PM   #42
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I was not a big fan of this referendum, and am very skeptical about how well a independent Catalanonia would work in the real world, but the Spanish Goverments heavy handed tactics have disgusted me.
General Franco is alive and well..........
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Old 1st October 2017, 01:19 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Wow, Madrid just ********** that up. I saw the video coming out of a polling station where the police in riot gear used batons to break the glass and enter the building full of reporters and election volunteers. The Spanish Police just wrote the propaganda for the Catalonians. They should have let the referendum go an ignored the results.
THIS.
They should have just let the referendum happen, and then announce it was a political gesture which had no legal validity (which it did not). Instead they have been incredibly ham fisted and stupid, and lot of people who though the a referendum with no legal status was a silly publicity stunt now sympathize with the separatist. Nice going, guys, nice going.
The govement now looks like Franco has come back from the dead .......
Time to reread Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia".
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Old 1st October 2017, 01:46 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
The stench of a Hitler youth brigade comes to mind.
Actually, the Hitler fans seem to be on the other side.

And under extreme pressure from a brutal Spanish police and anti protesters, the Catalonians are facing it with respect inducing dignity.

I think my favourite moment is when the local firefighters shielded voters from the police.

I have no dog in this race, and would personally prefer less fragmentation of Europe than more. However, I also support a people's right to self determination, and the actions of the Spanish authorities have shown that the Catalonians might have a valid case.
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Old 1st October 2017, 02:09 PM   #45
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Article 7 of the EU treaty mandates suspension of any member state that uses military force on its population.

So far, despite the use of rubber bullets, Spain has not used military force against Catalan would-be voters but its actions today has IMO cemented a determination in Catalonia to secede from Spain.
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Old 1st October 2017, 02:29 PM   #46
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To put the opposing argument. There is no doubt that under Catalan and Spanish law the referendum is illegal. There is a serious issue when governments (in this case the Catalan) feel that they can act illegally. Even if they have public support (and as I understand there has never been an opinion poll suggesting a majority in favour of Catalan independence), this is not a reason to break the law. Currently they spend public money illegally on a referendum. What will be the next action that is contrary the constitution, perhaps arresting those opposed to independence, closing down opposing newspapers? They have passed the point of no return they have demonstrated the will to break the law. They are criminals.

If you do not like the law in a civil society you campaign for a change. You do not break it. That it especially so if you are the government.
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Old 1st October 2017, 02:30 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Article 7 of the EU treaty mandates suspension of any member state that uses military force on its population.

So far, despite the use of rubber bullets, Spain has not used military force against Catalan would-be voters but its actions today has IMO cemented a determination in Catalonia to secede from Spain.
As well as that the Spanish government has forfeited any outside sympathy for its point of view with its use of force.
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Old 1st October 2017, 02:30 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
If you do not like the law in a civil society you campaign for a change. You do not break it. That it especially so if you are the government.
I hope you're not American.
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Old 1st October 2017, 02:33 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
To put the opposing argument. There is no doubt that under Catalan and Spanish law the referendum is illegal. There is a serious issue when governments (in this case the Catalan) feel that they can act illegally. Even if they have public support (and as I understand there has never been an opinion poll suggesting a majority in favour of Catalan independence), this is not a reason to break the law. Currently they spend public money illegally on a referendum. What will be the next action that is contrary the constitution, perhaps arresting those opposed to independence, closing down opposing newspapers? They have passed the point of no return they have demonstrated the will to break the law. They are criminals.

If you do not like the law in a civil society you campaign for a change. You do not break it. That it especially so if you are the government.
By that reasoning, Rosa Parks should have sat at the back of the bus.

There may have been no such opinion poll, but there was another referendum in 2014 with a majority pro-independence, and the current ruling party is actually a coalition or merger of pro-independence parties from all over the political spectrum. It would be folly to claim the voters didn't know they would be organizing this.
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Old 1st October 2017, 02:34 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
To put the opposing argument. There is no doubt that under Catalan and Spanish law the referendum is illegal. There is a serious issue when governments (in this case the Catalan) feel that they can act illegally. Even if they have public support (and as I understand there has never been an opinion poll suggesting a majority in favour of Catalan independence), this is not a reason to break the law. Currently they spend public money illegally on a referendum. What will be the next action that is contrary the constitution, perhaps arresting those opposed to independence, closing down opposing newspapers? They have passed the point of no return they have demonstrated the will to break the law. They are criminals.

If you do not like the law in a civil society you campaign for a change. You do not break it. That it especially so if you are the government.
Your post is horse doo doo. A referendum being illegal means the result is meaningless, it does not give the government the right to send in a paramilitary force to smash peoples' heads for taking part in it.

The Spanish government have truly disgraced themselves today, and it would serve them right if the Catalans declared UDI.
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Old 1st October 2017, 02:51 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
By that reasoning, Rosa Parks should have sat at the back of the bus.

There may have been no such opinion poll, but there was another referendum in 2014 with a majority pro-independence, and the current ruling party is actually a coalition or merger of pro-independence parties from all over the political spectrum. It would be folly to claim the voters didn't know they would be organizing this.
And the USA should still be part of the UK........
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Old 1st October 2017, 02:52 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
By that reasoning, Rosa Parks should have sat at the back of the bus.

There may have been no such opinion poll, but there was another referendum in 2014 with a majority pro-independence, and the current ruling party is actually a coalition or merger of pro-independence parties from all over the political spectrum. It would be folly to claim the voters didn't know they would be organizing this.
Not the government.
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Old 1st October 2017, 02:53 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Not the government.
People going out to cast a vote are not the government either.
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Old 1st October 2017, 02:54 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Your post is horse doo doo. A referendum being illegal means the result is meaningless, it does not give the government the right to send in a paramilitary force to smash peoples' heads for taking part in it.

The Spanish government have truly disgraced themselves today, and it would serve them right if the Catalans declared UDI.
Governments should not act illegally. Once the case had gone to court and been judged then the government should have obeyed the law. Once governments can decided what laws they obey and which they do not it ceases to be a democracy.
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Old 1st October 2017, 02:56 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
And the USA should still be part of the UK........
It was never part of the UK. At least get your analogies correct.
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:00 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Governments should not act illegally. Once the case had gone to court and been judged then the government should have obeyed the law. Once governments can decided what laws they obey and which they do not it ceases to be a democracy.
No, dearie. It ceases to be a democracy when police in riot gear baton charge peaceful citizens to prevent them from voting.
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:01 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Not the government.
You wrote:
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
If you do not like the law in a civil society you campaign for a change. You do not break it. That it especially so if you are the government.
So yes, you stated the principle that you do not break the law in advocating a change to anyone, government, individual or business.

Spaniards are oppressive bastards who want to burn anyone at the stake who has the wrong religion. Here's our 1581 Act of Abjuration. That was also illegal by your standards.
ETA: and that was "government against government", it being signed by the parliaments of the Dutch provinces.
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:03 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
By that reasoning, Rosa Parks should have sat at the back of the bus.

There may have been no such opinion poll, but there was another referendum in 2014 with a majority pro-independence, and the current ruling party is actually a coalition or merger of pro-independence parties from all over the political spectrum. It would be folly to claim the voters didn't know they would be organizing this.
So what happened?
Although not Rosa Parks, the case went to court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browder_v._Gayle
The segregation on the bus was held illegal. The authorities were held to account. Rosa Parks at the end of the day had not acted illegally. The Bus company had.

Your argument is that the authorities should just have ignored the courts and continued what was a 'popular' policy. I am arguing the civil rights case, that the authorities should be held to account.
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:07 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You wrote:

So yes, you stated the principle that you do not break the law in advocating a change to anyone, government, individual or business.

Spaniards are oppressive bastards who want to burn anyone at the stake who has the wrong religion. Here's our 1581 Act of Abjuration. That was also illegal by your standards.
Yeah no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

I think you can argue that there is a difference between a 'democratic' constitutional monarchy subject to ECHR jurisdiction and the absolutist Spanish monarchy. I would not argue that the English law was democratic then but at least the English monarchy had been subject to judicial oversight from 1215.
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:18 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
It was never part of the UK. At least get your analogies correct.
I really, really hope you mean England. Because that would be wrong too.
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:31 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
As well as that the Spanish government has forfeited any outside sympathy for its point of view with its use of force.
Yes. Apart from Serbia, who said essentially "We're with Spain coz the same **** happens here" and the British foreign ministry who said "We want to see the Spanish government stay in control." Well played Boris.
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:34 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
I really, really hope you mean England. Because that would be wrong too.
No I meant it was never part of the UK. Are you arguing it was? I would agree it was not part of the England either. UK was formed in 1707, US independence in 1776 so the reference to the UK was appropriate.
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:51 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
No I meant it was never part of the UK. Are you arguing it was? I would agree it was not part of the England either. UK was formed in 1707, US independence in 1776 so the reference to the UK was appropriate.
No, it was not, if we're being pedantic. It was called GB in 1707. It was only called UK in 1801 after the union with Ireland.
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Old 1st October 2017, 03:52 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Yes. Apart from Serbia, who said essentially "We're with Spain coz the same **** happens here" and the British foreign ministry who said "We want to see the Spanish government stay in control." Well played Boris.
He didn't try to recite a Kipling poem this time?
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Old 1st October 2017, 04:04 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, it was not, if we're being pedantic. It was called GB in 1707. It was only called UK in 1801 after the union with Ireland.
Ok pedantry rules
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Old 1st October 2017, 04:11 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
No, it was not, if we're being pedantic. It was called GB in 1707. It was only called UK in 1801 after the union with Ireland.
Actually I think it was called the United Kingom of Great Britain in 1707, and became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801.
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Old 1st October 2017, 04:26 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Actually I think it was called the United Kingom of Great Britain in 1707,
No, just "Kingdom of Great Britain", without the "United" in front.

Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
and became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801.
Yep, and colloquially just "United Kingdom" or UK.
And after 1922, "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
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Old 1st October 2017, 05:13 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THIS.
They should have just let the referendum happen, and then announce it was a political gesture which had no legal validity (which it did not). Instead they have been incredibly ham fisted and stupid, and lot of people who though the a referendum with no legal status was a silly publicity stunt now sympathize with the separatist. Nice going, guys, nice going.
The govement now looks like Franco has come back from the dead .......
Time to reread Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia".
I especially enjoyed watching the Spanish Police with riot shields advancing on pensioners singing songs of solidarity. Nothing makes you look weaker than trying too hard to look strong.
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Old 1st October 2017, 05:52 PM   #69
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The Spanish police attacking the Catalan firefighters standing in their firefighting protective gear, but unarmed, in front of the civilians trying to vote, was another low point. And the Catalan police lined up in front of the civilians trying to protect them from the Spanish police.

And the civilian woman who was trying to protect a group of elderly voters who was thrown to the ground, thrown down a flight of steps, and had her fingers deliberately and systematically broken one by one by the Spanish police was another. That was filmed live, as well as the woman herself giving a somewhat stressed account of it once she got back from hospital with her hands in splints.

I saw on Twitter there had been a fatality.

You know, I don't understand these people who say, I'm not in favour of the break-up of big states, we should stay united, I want the minimum number of states on the planet, and so on. Which states are behaving in the most egregious manner on the globe? By and large, the big ones. Look at any of the rankings of prosperity and happiness and you'll see the top spots dominated by countries with less than 10 million of a population.

States of that size are far less likely to be throwing their weight around, "punching above" that weight and generally making a damn nuisance of themselves. Why would anyone doubt the ability of Catalonia to thrive as an independent country? Or Scotland either for that matter. Just look at the most comparable existing states and see how they're getting on. Just fine, is the answer.

A few more Catalonias and Scotlands and yes Kurdistans, and fewer Spains and UKs and Iraqs, and the world would be a better place.
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Old 1st October 2017, 07:09 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
So what happened?
Although not Rosa Parks, the case went to court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browder_v._Gayle
The segregation on the bus was held illegal. The authorities were held to account. Rosa Parks at the end of the day had not acted illegally. The Bus company had.

Your argument is that the authorities should just have ignored the courts and continued what was a 'popular' policy. I am arguing the civil rights case, that the authorities should be held to account.
That case was filed after Rosa Parks and after two months of the Montgomery Bus Boycott. It was filed on basis of an earlier incident of a black person fined for not sitting in the back of the bus. The NAACP had long been thinking about creating an incident with a black person, who had to be spotless in order not to be smeared in court for whatever "immoral" thing they'd done else in their life, when the Rosa Parks incident spontaneously came.

That's the thing with overturning unconstitutional criminal laws. You first have to break the law, then you have to get prosecuted, in order to get judicial review of the contentious law. There is no abstract judicial review - in the USA, in nearly all countries that have it - only for concrete cases. So, if you think that law X is unconstitutional, you first have to break it in order to test your theory. This is in direct contravention to your "principle" that you should try to change the law within the law. There is, for criminal law at least, no other way to get it overruled than to break it. And OTOH, that also means there are still scores of US states with anti-sodomy laws on the books, because no DA ever tries to prosecute sodomy cases because they know it doesn't stand a chance.

Furthermore, it would be an interesting "what if" what would have happened if the NAACP had filed a case before their bus boycott. Would it if had the same outcome? After all, the rights enshrined in the American Constitution read like a horoscope and are very malleable in their interpretation. And would it have had the same speed? Now, the District Court ruled within 4 months and then it got bumped directly to SCOTUS who delivered their verdict within the same calendar year.
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Old 1st October 2017, 09:42 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
A few more Catalonias and Scotlands and yes Kurdistans, and fewer Spains and UKs and Iraqs, and the world would be a better place.
Said Napoleon.
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Old 1st October 2017, 09:48 PM   #72
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This may be the worst PR blunder by a central government handling a secessionist movement since the Easter Rising.
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Old 1st October 2017, 09:48 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
To put the opposing argument. There is no doubt that under Catalan and Spanish law the referendum is illegal. There is a serious issue when governments (in this case the Catalan) feel that they can act illegally. Even if they have public support (and as I understand there has never been an opinion poll suggesting a majority in favour of Catalan independence), this is not a reason to break the law. Currently they spend public money illegally on a referendum. What will be the next action that is contrary the constitution, perhaps arresting those opposed to independence, closing down opposing newspapers? They have passed the point of no return they have demonstrated the will to break the law. They are criminals.

If you do not like the law in a civil society you campaign for a change. You do not break it. That it especially so if you are the government.
Declarations of independence fall into a different category from simple law breaking, as US citizens may well agree. It depends on the character of the new state that emerges.

Back in 1916 some Irish subjects of the UK broke the law by declaring independence - probably against the wishes of the majority of Irish people. But the cruel and asinine behaviour of the UK government in response changed the popular inclination in the direction of independence. Has Castile's violent supporession of the referendum had the same effect as the execution of the signatories of the Irish 1916 proclamation (who, after all, had demonstrated The will to break the law, and were criminals)? Perhaps it has. At any event it was very ill advised.
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Old 1st October 2017, 10:56 PM   #74
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
To put the opposing argument. There is no doubt that under Catalan and Spanish law the referendum is illegal. There is a serious issue when governments (in this case the Catalan) feel that they can act illegally. Even if they have public support (and as I understand there has never been an opinion poll suggesting a majority in favour of Catalan independence), this is not a reason to break the law. Currently they spend public money illegally on a referendum. What will be the next action that is contrary the constitution, perhaps arresting those opposed to independence, closing down opposing newspapers? They have passed the point of no return they have demonstrated the will to break the law. They are criminals.

If you do not like the law in a civil society you campaign for a change. You do not break it. That it especially so if you are the government.
Yeah, that's true. While the actions of Madrid are abhorrent, the Catalan populist government are criminals too. The polls show they can expect a split electorate at best:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catala...pendence_issue

A statistical tie if I ever saw one. Even if Madrid would consent to holding a poll and they managed to win a slim majority, this is hardly a mandate for an independent Catalonia. For changes like these you need a bit more than 50% plus one vote to have a meaningful mandate.

Numbers like these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croati...ferendum,_1991
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloven...ferendum,_1990

Give you mandate for all sorts of one-sided actions. The numbers like the ones Catalonian authorities can hope for (51-49 in favor or so) do not.

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Old 1st October 2017, 11:30 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The Spanish police attacking the Catalan firefighters standing in their firefighting protective gear, but unarmed, in front of the civilians trying to vote, was another low point. And the Catalan police lined up in front of the civilians trying to protect them from the Spanish police.

And the civilian woman who was trying to protect a group of elderly voters who was thrown to the ground, thrown down a flight of steps, and had her fingers deliberately and systematically broken one by one by the Spanish police was another. That was filmed live, as well as the woman herself giving a somewhat stressed account of it once she got back from hospital with her hands in splints.

I saw on Twitter there had been a fatality.

You know, I don't understand these people who say, I'm not in favour of the break-up of big states, we should stay united, I want the minimum number of states on the planet, and so on. Which states are behaving in the most egregious manner on the globe? By and large, the big ones. Look at any of the rankings of prosperity and happiness and you'll see the top spots dominated by countries with less than 10 million of a population.

States of that size are far less likely to be throwing their weight around, "punching above" that weight and generally making a damn nuisance of themselves. Why would anyone doubt the ability of Catalonia to thrive as an independent country? Or Scotland either for that matter. Just look at the most comparable existing states and see how they're getting on. Just fine, is the answer.

A few more Catalonias and Scotlands and yes Kurdistans, and fewer Spains and UKs and Iraqs, and the world would be a better place.
South Sudan? Ex-Yugoslavia?
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Old 1st October 2017, 11:50 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yeah, that's true. While the actions of Madrid are abhorrent, the Catalan populist government are criminals too. The polls show they can expect a split electorate at best:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catala...pendence_issue

A statistical tie if I ever saw one. Even if Madrid would consent to holding a poll and they managed to win a slim majority, this is hardly a mandate for an independent Catalonia. For changes like these you need a bit more than 50% plus one vote to have a meaningful mandate.

Numbers like these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croati...ferendum,_1991
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloven...ferendum,_1990

Give you mandate for all sorts of one-sided actions. The numbers like the ones Catalonian authorities can hope for (51-49 in favor or so) do not.

McHrozni

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...onia-vote-live

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41463719

What if the result is 90% for independence?

Last edited by Ryokan; 1st October 2017 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 1st October 2017, 11:56 PM   #77
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
With 42% participation? None. Check participation in those two referendums, both had participation of well over 90%, with over 90% of votes being in favor. 90% of 42% is barely over 1/3 of the electorate, those two both had almost 90% of the entire electorate in favor.

The results in Catalonia are in line with polls. Most of those who want an independent Catalonia voted, most of those who don't stayed at home, since it was an illegal venture. Madrid would be well advised to agree to a referendum and defeat the separatists at the polls. That may be the best course of action if Catalonia was their only issue.

The only problem is that would likely result in more demands for more referendums, for example in Basque country. They would probably already do so if it was just Catalonia. The picture is a tad more complex than most analysis imagine.

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Old 2nd October 2017, 12:02 AM   #78
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Perhaps more people would have voted if the Spanish police wasn't out there clubbing grandmothers.

42% voter turnout is not far from the turnout of US presidential elections.
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Old 2nd October 2017, 12:06 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Perhaps more people would have voted if the Spanish police wasn't out there clubbing grandmothers.
Perhaps. But if that happened, based on the polls, you would also expect a drastically less one-sided result of the referendum. Did you take that into account?

Quote:
42% voter turnout is not far from the turnout of US presidential elections.
Perhaps more people would vote in US elections if US had a different electoral system that would make Republican votes in New York and California and Democrat votes in Kentucky and Alabama relevant?

What of it?

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Old 2nd October 2017, 12:34 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Perhaps. But if that happened, based on the polls, you would also expect a drastically less one-sided result of the referendum. Did you take that into account?



Perhaps more people would vote in US elections if US had a different electoral system that would make Republican votes in New York and California and Democrat votes in Kentucky and Alabama relevant?

What of it?

McHrozni
Whilst I think the response of the Spanish authorities were poor. I think it would be wrong to argue the present referendum gave a democratic legitimacy to Catalan independence. This was not a free and fair vote. (It matters little whose fault this was).

The best outcome is if this could be used to move to a proper referendum.
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