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Tags Catalonia incidents , Catalonia issues , independence movements , separatist movements , Spain incidents , Spain issues , Spain politics

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Old 22nd October 2017, 03:06 PM   #321
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The thing is, there are always some people playing silly buggers on social media, either just mixing it for the hell of it, or even possibly maliciously to give ammunition to later allegations of "fake news!" But I saw a lot of this as it was coming in, and many cases were attested to by several different films of the same thing. The episode where the woman was thrown downstairs, groped, and had her fingers deliberately broken by the Spanish police was particularly shocking.

I also know a few people who were there as accredited international observers. They are also adamant that the vast majority of the scenes of violence were all too real.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 03:20 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I fully agree.

Spain's actions to crush dissent may inspire many more Catalonians to support independence and then it may be too heavy a ship to turn around.

Hmmm. Good question. https://twitter.com/CataloniaHelp2/s...25925688532992
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Old 22nd October 2017, 03:24 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I fully agree.

Spain's actions to crush dissent may inspire many more Catalonians to support independence and then it may be too heavy a ship to turn around.
You are right. But what is a Catalonian - do we have genetic evidence of such people?

A map of Barcelona shows Calle (Carrer in Catalan) de Murcia, dŽAllacant etc... These are other Spanish towns and cities. Why?

I may be wrong, but with all the internal migration, breeding etc..(pre and post Franco), what is a pure Catalonian in the first place?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 03:29 PM   #324
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I don't think the Catalan independence movement is ethnic/racist.

If the population of an independent country has to be ethnically "pure" to qualify for that status, then there won't be any independent countries on the face of the planet. What the hell is a "pure Belgian" come to that?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 03:32 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
You are right. But what is a Catalonian - do we have genetic evidence of such people?

A map of Barcelona shows Calle (Carrer in Catalan) de Murcia, dŽAllacant etc... These are other Spanish towns and cities. Why?

I may be wrong, but with all the internal migration, breeding etc..(pre and post Franco), what is a pure Catalonian in the first place?
They have their own language, customs, and history of persecution.

Thats enough to be a nation.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 03:39 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
They have their own language, customs, and history of persecution.

Thats enough to be a nation.
Nonsense - hence anybody with a cultural grudge can claim independence?

Newcastle, for example.

People forget that "French" as a language is less than a 130 years old - separating France is the solution?

And as I said they, Catalonians, have bred with outsiders for donkeys

Give me a genetic argument that they are different and not an emotional one please.

Ooh - and Scot separatists, do the same
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Old 22nd October 2017, 03:48 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Nonsense - hence anybody with a cultural grudge can claim independence?
If they are a nation and have not been treated fairly by their host country, then yes.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 04:25 PM   #328
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If they are a nation and want to be independent. This shouldn't be dependent on being badly treated by the colonising country, otherwise you just end up with a catalogue of grievance and "no you can't, you're not oppressed enough."

I am totally baffled by this talk of genetic purity as if we were talking about pedigree dogs or something. And from a Belgian, of all people. There's no such thing. Scotland is full of Irish, Italians, Poles, Pakistanis, you name it. Same as everywhere else. It's still Scotland.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:09 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If they are a nation and want to be independent. This shouldn't be dependent on being badly treated by the colonising country, otherwise you just end up with a catalogue of grievance and "no you can't, you're not oppressed enough."

I am totally baffled by this talk of genetic purity as if we were talking about pedigree dogs or something. And from a Belgian, of all people. There's no such thing. Scotland is full of Irish, Italians, Poles, Pakistanis, you name it. Same as everywhere else. It's still Scotland.
Exactly - so where is the gripe?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:12 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
If they are a nation and have not been treated fairly by their host country, then yes.
Define a nation
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:16 PM   #331
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Okay we separate Catalonia from Spain.

But wait... Catalonia isn't some perfect hegemony. It has significant sub-cultures based on language, religion, ethnic backgrounds.

Well no problem. We'll just split them off into their own countries as well.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:27 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Define a nation
CCP Grey has a wonderful Youtube video called "How Many Countries Are There?" and goes into how that's an incredibly hard that seemingly simple question is to answer.

(Yes I know the question was "nation" and not "country" but I'll get there...)

He goes into contested countries like Kosovo, the oddity of Taiwan (*China appears behind him.* "Eeerrr I mean Chinese Taipei. Which is totally not a country and no one would ever think otherwise. *Whispers* Is China gone yet?") and how nothing done in international relations actually make sense unless it is its own country, the impossibility of forming a single objective definition of country that includes Vatican City ("The least country like country that is") but excludes Hong Kong ("The most country like country that isn't") and even the oddity of non-countries having Olympic Teams.

The best answer he can come up with, and it's the best answer to what areas should be countries, is "What makes you a country is whether other countries consider you a country."
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:31 PM   #333
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As a Belgian. I should know
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:40 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Okay we separate Catalonia from Spain.

But wait... Catalonia isn't some perfect hegemony. It has significant sub-cultures based on language, religion, ethnic backgrounds.

Well no problem. We'll just split them off into their own countries as well.
Dealt with that point already: have a look a few screens back.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 12:42 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Exactly - so where is the gripe?

Not going to derail this thread into Scottish nationalism, but it's perfectly normal for countries whose populations are not "ethnically pure" to govern themselves and to have control over their own resources and policies. Indeed, since there's no such thing as an ethnically pure population anywhere, all independent countries are like that. The refusal to countenance the aspirations of countries which don't enjoy that status to acquire it, is what's peculiar.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 01:34 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
As a Belgian. I should know

I'm Scots, and so is Architect, so we know who we are too, you'll understand. Belgium's justification for being an independent country isn't "we're ethnically pure!" So why impose that unattainable standard on another country?

I can just imagine it. "Yes, that's fine Freedonia, you've proved everyone in the country is ethnically pure Freedonian. Welcome to the club of independent states who are allowed to control their own resources and govern themselves."

"Oh noes, someone from Ruritania just went to live in Freedonia. Sorry about that Freedonia, you have to become a colony again."
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Old 23rd October 2017, 03:37 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm Scots, and so is Architect, so we know who we are too, you'll understand. Belgium's justification for being an independent country isn't "we're ethnically pure!" So why impose that unattainable standard on another country?

I can just imagine it. "Yes, that's fine Freedonia, you've proved everyone in the country is ethnically pure Freedonian. Welcome to the club of independent states who are allowed to control their own resources and govern themselves."

"Oh noes, someone from Ruritania just went to live in Freedonia. Sorry about that Freedonia, you have to become a colony again."

The modern way (19th and 20th century) to define a new country is to have a handful of other countries that have been using the area as a resource for extraction and agricultural industries get together in a nice resort area somewhere and draw lines on a map which are convenient to them.

If those lines should happen to go through the middle of places that have been ethnically and culturally distinct for centuries or even millennia and lump them in with others they have no connection to ... oh, well.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 04:16 AM   #338
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So true.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 04:18 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
You are right. But what is a Catalonian - do we have genetic evidence of such people?

A map of Barcelona shows Calle (Carrer in Catalan) de Murcia, dŽAllacant etc... These are other Spanish towns and cities. Why?

I may be wrong, but with all the internal migration, breeding etc..(pre and post Franco), what is a pure Catalonian in the first place?
It's worth restating that this is not a genetic thing. Even less would one argue against independence for Scotland, for example, on grounds that there are plenty of streets in Glasgow named after places in England, or that people in Scotland exhibit genetic diversity.

These would be the strangest unionist arguments ever advanced, and in fact I've never heard them, even from tub thumping English jingoists.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 04:28 AM   #340
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I heard the argument from David Colquhoun, of all people, the well-known anti-quackery pundit. Despite my once having given him a lift to the station in Edinburgh after he gave a lecture here, he blocked me on Twitter for trying to explain that the Scottish independence movement had nothing to do with ethnicity. He seemed to think that "the Scots are not a genetically distinct race" was all that was needed to prove the illegitimacy of the independence movement.

To be fair he unblocked me some time later. But the huge lack of understanding of what was going on was a bit of a shock to me. It's even dafter coming from someone from Belgium, of all places.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 06:50 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
... It's even dafter coming from someone from Belgium, of all places.
Maybe the pure Belgian genome comprises intertwined strands of Flemish and Walloon DNA. They will of course untwine if ever the two regions become separate countries.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 11:56 AM   #342
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So what is Rajoy's exit strategy here?

Catalonia can't be the only Spanish region ruled directly from Madrid in perpetuity.

At some point he is going to have to return to them the same degree of autonomy they previously enjoyed.

And what happens then?
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Old 23rd October 2017, 12:28 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
So what is Rajoy's exit strategy here?

Catalonia can't be the only Spanish region ruled directly from Madrid in perpetuity.

At some point he is going to have to return to them the same degree of autonomy they previously enjoyed.

And what happens then?
I suspect it'll be SCW-II
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Old 23rd October 2017, 12:36 PM   #344
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I wonder if we're looking at another Brexit where Group A is in a really big hurry to break free of Group B right up until the point it actually happen s and then when the nuts and bolts reality of how to actually go about breaking free on anything resembling a procedural level comes up everybody suddenly finds other stuff to do.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 12:46 PM   #345
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For the Franco-German's in the audience...

Well I don't know why I came here tonight
I've got a feelin' that somethin' alt-right
I'm so scared in case it’s all of Austria.
Spain’s to the left of me,
Kosovo’s to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with EU
Yea, I'm stuck in a muddle with U(kraine)
And I'm wonderin' what it is I should do
It's so hard to keep Brexit from a farce
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Old 23rd October 2017, 02:01 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I suspect it'll be SCW-II
Though it might resemble more the Irish War Of Independence. The setting up of a "shadow Government" seem a logical step by the Catalans.
And the Guardia Civil will end up being the Black and Tans.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 02:08 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
And in answer to the EU - yes they will lose membership and would have to re-apply and, as someone rightly said, Spain would veto it.
Never been tested. EU citizens have never been stripped of their EU citizenship against their will. Opinion is not fact.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 02:21 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Never been tested. EU citizens have never been stripped of their EU citizenship against their will. Opinion is not fact.
Sure, hasn't Madrid been approaching this in a compassionate and magnanimous manner?

(If Catalonia votes to leave - they will not consider it "stripping their EU citizenship against their will". Or do you think that Brits will get to keep EU citizenship even after Brexit???)
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Old 23rd October 2017, 02:53 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Sure, hasn't Madrid been approaching this in a compassionate and magnanimous manner?

(If Catalonia votes to leave - they will not consider it "stripping their EU citizenship against their will". Or do you think that Brits will get to keep EU citizenship even after Brexit???)
The UK government wants to leave the EU. Does the Catalan?
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Old 23rd October 2017, 03:05 PM   #350
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And this is what I've been getting at.

In the modern world where practically all countries belong to dozens (if not hundreds or even thousands) of various international organizations, agreements, committees, etc, what does independence mean the same thing it did a hundred or two hundred or even fifty years ago?

It's not just the EU/EEA/Eurozone/Schagen it's NATO, the UN, countless trade and environmental organizations.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 03:36 PM   #351
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SOrry, but comparing Britex with the Catalan situation is apples and oranges.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 03:46 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SOrry, but comparing Britex with the Catalan situation is apples and oranges.
Indeed. The Catalan government at least appears to have some sort of plan.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 03:51 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
SOrry, but comparing Britex with the Catalan situation is apples and oranges.
Agreed. But to torture the metaphor a bit any... errr movement of the parts in relation to "countries" is at least... in the fruit aisle.

My broad point is only that most countries, European countries by no means least of all, are all parties to complex international agreements of various kinds, some of which do filter down to the individual citizen level and that is a factor in all this.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 10:48 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Though it might resemble more the Irish War Of Independence. The setting up of a "shadow Government" seem a logical step by the Catalans.
And the Guardia Civil will end up being the Black and Tans.
The firefighters appear to have pledged allegiance to the Catalan authorities and repudiated Madrid. It is indeed very much like Ireland 1918-1921. But there is one difference. The autonomous Catalan region has its own force in the shape of the Mossos. What will that organisation now do if Madrid goes all Falangist, and the Guardia Civil starts to behave like the "Tans"?

ETA. A Catalan source is referring to
... els Mossos que asseguren que no acataran el 155 i seran fidels al Govern
They will not obey the 155 and will remain faithful to the Government. Interesting.

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Old 24th October 2017, 12:43 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Though it might resemble more the Irish War Of Independence. The setting up of a "shadow Government" seem a logical step by the Catalans.
And the Guardia Civil will end up being the Black and Tans.
Your analogy of the Guardia Civil with the Black and Tans is wrong, the Guardia Civil would equate with the Royal Irish Constabulary. The Black and Tans were recruited after the onset of violence, after the war had started. They were mostly ex British Army soldiers formed into a special constabulary to provide support to the RIC.

If the Catalan 'government' initiates a war on the Spanish state in the same way that the Irish Republic did on Britain it would be foolish. It is worth remembering the consequence was the Irish Civil war. It is easier to start a fight than to stop it.
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Old 24th October 2017, 01:23 AM   #356
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Your analogy of the Guardia Civil with the Black and Tans is wrong, the Guardia Civil would equate with the Royal Irish Constabulary. The Black and Tans were recruited after the onset of violence, after the war had started. They were mostly ex British Army soldiers formed into a special constabulary to provide support to the RIC.

If the Catalan 'government' initiates a war on the Spanish state in the same way that the Irish Republic did on Britain it would be foolish. It is worth remembering the consequence was the Irish Civil war. It is easier to start a fight than to stop it.
Ah yes, Irish republicans initiated a war on Britain. Poor Britain. Occupied and partitioned? The final consequence was not the Civil War, but independence. I see the wicked Irish have established a 'Republic' with a 'Border', which is presenting a problem to poor Brexit Britain. More Irish aggression! Send in the Tans!
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Old 24th October 2017, 02:52 AM   #357
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I just don't get nationalism of this kind. Risk getting cut off from the EU in perpetuity and hostile relations with your major neighbour, all for what? To be able to say "I'm Catalonian"? They can do that now.
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Old 24th October 2017, 03:11 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I just don't get nationalism of this kind. Risk getting cut off from the EU in perpetuity and hostile relations with your major neighbour, all for what? To be able to say "I'm Catalonian"? They can do that now.
Even if that's what it is all about, and I don't think that's the whole story; they couldn't say it with impunity, officially in the Catalan language, while Franco was alive. So their right to say it is at the good pleasure of whoever happens to be in charge in Madrid. Their autonomy, indeed, has been rescinded at the present time. Thus, it is highly conditional, not free or absolute.

I'm not sure why peoples seek to be independent, but they do. And once they have attained independence they never seem to want to go back to their previous dependent status, whatever problems they may have.

I don't know where this feeling comes from, and I can understand why someone might not "get it". Perhaps it's a process of developing consciousness; simply something like growing up and wanting to leave home, even if it's a good home. However, the "homes" in which small nations have lived are often not happy ones, but seriously abusive.

The main difference between dependency on another state on one hand, and a parental home on the other, is that the dependent people were not usually "born" as dependents. Often they were violently "adopted" and have a history of repeated abscondence and forced return.
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Old 24th October 2017, 03:23 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
CCP Grey has a wonderful Youtube video called "How Many Countries Are There?" and goes into how that's an incredibly hard that seemingly simple question is to answer.

(Yes I know the question was "nation" and not "country" but I'll get there...)

He goes into contested countries like Kosovo, the oddity of Taiwan (*China appears behind him.* "Eeerrr I mean Chinese Taipei. Which is totally not a country and no one would ever think otherwise. *Whispers* Is China gone yet?") and how nothing done in international relations actually make sense unless it is its own country, the impossibility of forming a single objective definition of country that includes Vatican City ("The least country like country that is") but excludes Hong Kong ("The most country like country that isn't") and even the oddity of non-countries having Olympic Teams.

The best answer he can come up with, and it's the best answer to what areas should be countries, is "What makes you a country is whether other countries consider you a country."

By country we mean a sovereign state and a member of the U.N in its own right [/Osman]
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Old 24th October 2017, 03:33 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Even if that's what it is all about, and I don't think that's the whole story; they couldn't say it with impunity, officially in the Catalan language, while Franco was alive. So their right to say it is at the good pleasure of whoever happens to be in charge in Madrid. Their autonomy, indeed, has been rescinded at the present time. Thus, it is highly conditional, not free or absolute.

I'm not sure why peoples seek to be independent, but they do. And once they have attained independence they never seem to want to go back to their previous dependent status, whatever problems they may have.

I don't know where this feeling comes from, and I can understand why someone might not "get it". Perhaps it's a process of developing consciousness; simply something like growing up and wanting to leave home, even if it's a good home. However, the "homes" in which small nations have lived are often not happy ones, but seriously abusive.

The main difference between dependency on another state on one hand, and a parental home on the other, is that the dependent people were not usually "born" as dependents. Often they were violently "adopted" and have a history of repeated abscondence and forced return.
I can understand a people who suffer under opression wanting to free themselves and form their own government, but I just don't see that as the reality when it comes to Catalonia, nor Scotland for that matter. I'm sure there are things that people in Barcelona think Madrid is doing wrong, but I don't believe it's much more than how people in Gothenburg feel about Stockholm, and nobody's talking about an independent Gothia.

I also can't shake the feeling that this is all playing into the hands of a certain Eastern autocrat.
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