ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags islam , koran

Reply
Old 10th November 2017, 12:04 PM   #441
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,089
Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Hey Scorpion,

a bit off-topic. But you just said you knew the Koran to some extent.

Are there sections that impress you for their psychological insight, depth of feeling, originality, wisdom, or poetry?

This is just to speed up my own dive into the Koran.

I suspect that it is not to my taste, but I want to make sure.

Can you, if so inclined, give me some sections to check out?
Not much of the Quran impresses me, see my thread,' what the Quran really says'

According to Muslims the Arabic Quran is more poetic than the English translations, but I cannot read Arabic, I recommend using more than one translation for comparison because you cannot take any individual translation literally. I mainly use the Pickthall and Yusuf Ali translations but I refer to many others if there is some dispute.

I recommend people new to the Quran to read it backwards, from surah 114 because the Quran is largely compiled by length of surah and the longest ones are at the front. If you try reading through surah 2 you will probably find it hard going. But reading the short surah from the back is easier.

The first surah from the back that is of interest is surah 111 in which Muhammad condemns his own aunt and uncle for not believing in him.

The Quran is very repetitive and you will find the same verses practically word for word scattered through it.

I suggest you download a copy of the Quran that is all on one page then you can scroll through it quickly. I have a Yusuf Ali translation on a single text page but I cannot remember where I got it from. You will have to search the web.

I also suggest you use a search engine to look up words in the Quran so you can read on a specific subject. The following is the Yusuf Ali version


http://search-the-quran.com/

Here is a link to forty translations for comparison.


https://themuslimtimes.info/2012/02/...an-in-english/
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 12:07 PM   #442
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,891
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Not much of the Quran impresses me, see my thread,' what the Quran really says'

According to Muslims the Arabic Quran is more poetic than the English translations, but I cannot read Arabic, I recommend using more than one translation for comparison because you cannot take any individual translation literally. I mainly use the Pickthall and Yusuf Ali translations but I refer to many others if there is some dispute.

I recommend people new to the Quran to read it backwards, from surah 114 because the Quran is largely compiled by length of surah and the longest ones are at the front. If you try reading through surah 2 you will probably find it hard going. But reading the short surah from the back is easier.

The first surah from the back that is of interest is surah 111 in which Muhammad condemns his own aunt and uncle for not believing in him.

The Quran is very repetitive and you will find the same verses practically word for word scattered through it.

I suggest you download a copy of the Quran that is all on one page then you can scroll through it quickly. I have a Yusuf Ali translation on a single text page but I cannot remember where I got it from. You will have to search the web.

I also suggest you use a search engine to look up words in the Quran so you can read on a specific subject. The following is the Yusuf Ali version


http://search-the-quran.com/

Here is a link to forty translations for comparison.


https://themuslimtimes.info/2012/02/...an-in-english/
Whatever, but still a dearth of miracles. Where are these miracles?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 12:11 PM   #443
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,089
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Whatever, but still a dearth of miracles. Where are these miracles?
Muhammad excuses the fact he cannot do miracles several times in the Quran, and he also excuses not being able to show people his angel.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 12:11 PM   #444
Emre_1974tr
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

Quran 5.33
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter
Again there is self defense and retaliation.

My Turkish article about the verse:

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com.tr/20...mudafa-ve.html

****



The assailants killed the Muslims, pulled them out of their vatas, or cut crossing them.

In the past, other spiritualist pagans, such as Pharaoh, did the same.

20:69 "Cast down what is in your right hand; it will consume what they have made. They have only made the work of a magician, and the magician will not succeed no matter what he does."

20:70 So the magicians went down in prostration. They said, "We acknowledge the Lord of Aaron and Moses."

20:71 He said, "Have you acknowledged him before taking my permission? He is surely your great one who has taught you magic. So, I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!"

*****

The Christian writer Texe Marrs talks about the reasons for the Egyptian Pharaoh's obsession to bring legs and arms crossed:

İn ancient Egypt, the mark of "X" and the symbol of cross-bones in the symbol of an X was very prominent in religious contexts. You can find the X on the walls of a number of ancient Egyptians temples and pyramids... It is the sign of Osiris, the great sun God..

The ancient pharaohs, when they were buried, had the legs crossed in the form of "X" as a sign of devotion to Osiris.''

Codex Magica (Texe Marrs)

These ancient Egyptian figures demonstrate how prevalent was Osiris' sacred sign, "X."




The mummy of Rameses the Great (1279-1213 B.C.) was found in this cedarwood sarcophagus. This pharaoh is thought by Egyptologists to be the ruler who enslaved the Israelites and forced them to build cities.



Painting from the Tomb of Rameses I, Valley of the Kings, West Thebes, in Egypt.



******

The tradition of keeping the arms and legs in the X position can also be seen in other pagan practices around the world.

In short, crossing is about self defense and retaliation to attacker pagans (Who cuts the Muslims in X shape).

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 10th November 2017 at 12:22 PM.
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 12:17 PM   #445
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,237
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Not that I give a damn because I am not a bible scholar. (I know the Quran better than the bible).
But as I understand it Jesus the man was supposed to be born of an immaculate conception, making God his father, making him part of the trinity.
I think its a bit of a stretch to hold Jesus responsible for the flood.
In any case in my view the old testament is Jewish myths that almost certainly never happened.
Denying the Trinity? That would have got you burned alive at one time.

Also it's very convenient to ignore the bits of the bible you don't agree with.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 12:25 PM   #446
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,891
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Again there is self defense and retaliation.

My Turkish article about the verse:

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com.tr/20...mudafa-ve.html

****
No. just no.


Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The assailants killed the Muslims, pulled them out of their vatas, or cut crossing them.

In the past, other spiritualist pagans, such as Pharaoh, did the same.

20:69 "Cast down what is in your right hand; it will consume what they have made. They have only made the work of a magician, and the magician will not succeed no matter what he does."

20:70 So the magicians went down in prostration. They said, "We acknowledge the Lord of Aaron and Moses."

20:71 He said, "Have you acknowledged him before taking my permission? He is surely your great one who has taught you magic. So, I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!"

*****

The Christian writer Texe Marrs talks about the reasons for the Egyptian Pharaoh's obsession to bring legs and arms crossed:

İn ancient Egypt, the mark of "X" and the symbol of cross-bones in the symbol of an X was very prominent in religious contexts. You can find the X on the walls of a number of ancient Egyptians temples and pyramids... It is the sign of Osiris, the great sun God..

The ancient pharaohs, when they were buried, had the legs crossed in the form of "X" as a sign of devotion to Osiris.''

Codex Magica (Texe Marrs)

These ancient Egyptian figures demonstrate how prevalent was Osiris' sacred sign, "X."

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5f82af2d3d.jpg


The mummy of Rameses the Great (1279-1213 B.C.) was found in this cedarwood sarcophagus. This pharaoh is thought by Egyptologists to be the ruler who enslaved the Israelites and forced them to build cities.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5f891dcfc7.jpg

Painting from the Tomb of Rameses I, Valley of the Kings, West Thebes, in Egypt.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5f933216b3.jpg

******

The tradition of keeping the arms and legs in the X position can also be seen in other pagan practices around the world.
Holy crap. Have you no shame at all? You are willing to hijack the religious crankery of others as your own? Across various millenia? Long before Mo and his sick god Allah? That level of lie does not give you pause?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 12:38 PM   #447
Emre_1974tr
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 224
Scorpion is a Christian missioner.

They have different masks and identities on each forum.

They show themselves as members of other religions.
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 12:47 PM   #448
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,891
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Scorpion is a Christian missioner.

They have different masks and identities on each forum.

They show themselves as members of other religions.
Scorpion is no such thing and if you were even vaguely paying attention, you would know that Scorpion is getting roasted in a different thread.

And that does not detract from your nonsense. You are deflecting and proud of it. You thread is titled "The Miracles continue" but you have yet to present any miracle at all. Furthermore, you have denied what the risible book actually says which makes you an apostate, and we all know the violent end the book mandates for that.

The bottom line seems to be that we know more than you do about the crankery you seem to espouse, And you do not like that much.

Why?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 04:58 PM   #449
Emre_1974tr
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Again there is self defense and retaliation.

My Turkish article about the verse:

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com.tr/20...mudafa-ve.html

****



The assailants killed the Muslims, pulled them out of their vatas, or cut crossing them.

In the past, other spiritualist pagans, such as Pharaoh, did the same.

20:69 "Cast down what is in your right hand; it will consume what they have made. They have only made the work of a magician, and the magician will not succeed no matter what he does."

20:70 So the magicians went down in prostration. They said, "We acknowledge the Lord of Aaron and Moses."

20:71 He said, "Have you acknowledged him before taking my permission? He is surely your great one who has taught you magic. So, I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!"

*****

The Christian writer Texe Marrs talks about the reasons for the Egyptian Pharaoh's obsession to bring legs and arms crossed:

İn ancient Egypt, the mark of "X" and the symbol of cross-bones in the symbol of an X was very prominent in religious contexts. You can find the X on the walls of a number of ancient Egyptians temples and pyramids... It is the sign of Osiris, the great sun God..

The ancient pharaohs, when they were buried, had the legs crossed in the form of "X" as a sign of devotion to Osiris.''

Codex Magica (Texe Marrs)

These ancient Egyptian figures demonstrate how prevalent was Osiris' sacred sign, "X."

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5f82af2d3d.jpg


The mummy of Rameses the Great (1279-1213 B.C.) was found in this cedarwood sarcophagus. This pharaoh is thought by Egyptologists to be the ruler who enslaved the Israelites and forced them to build cities.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5f891dcfc7.jpg

Painting from the Tomb of Rameses I, Valley of the Kings, West Thebes, in Egypt.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5f933216b3.jpg

******

The tradition of keeping the arms and legs in the X position can also be seen in other pagan practices around the world.

In short, crossing is about self defense and retaliation to attacker pagans (Who cuts the Muslims in X shape).
The Quran describes the real face of the cross.

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 10th November 2017 at 05:00 PM.
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th November 2017, 07:27 PM   #450
Peregrinus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,011
Obviously not on-thread, but I'm breathlessly waiting for citations showing Jesus was at an event (the flood) which never happened.
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 02:53 AM   #451
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,237
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The Quran describes the real face of the cross.
Is that a miracle? What is the relevance of this?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 01:17 PM   #452
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,698
This thread's continuation is a miracle.
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 01:30 PM   #453
calebprime
Somewhat Elitist Parasite
 
calebprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,341
Is miracle!
__________________
Life sucks, and then you die

( Sung to the tune of the old Time jingle: "Time flies, and you are there!" )
calebprime is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 03:07 PM   #454
Hungry81
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,516
Ok if Jews were Muslims, then Jesus makes even less sense than he already does and the Quran should not praise him as a prophet, but denounce him as a false prophet and leader of a heretical and blasphemous cult. But it doesn't for the same reason Christianity appropriated pagan practices and holidays, to make the religion more appealing to practicioners of those other religions to make conversion -forced or otherwise- more appealing.
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 05:09 PM   #455
Emre_1974tr
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 224
The real life story of Jesus too is only in the Qur'an.

Things are different from what you have been taught.
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 06:44 PM   #456
Brainache
Nasty Brutish and Tall
 
Brainache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 16,852
Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Obviously not on-thread, but I'm breathlessly waiting for citations showing Jesus was at an event (the flood) which never happened.
Time to start breathing. Feast your eyes on this steaming pile of poppycock:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence_of_Christ
Originally Posted by wiki
The Christological doctrine of pre-existence maintains that Christ's personal existence is that of an external Subject within the oneness of God, and hence cannot be derived from the history of human beings and their world. His personal being did not originate when his visible human history began. He did not come into existence as a new person around 5 BC. He exists personally as the eternal Son of God. To adopt tensed language from Nicaea I ("there never was [a time] when he was not" – DzH 126)[15] and state that Christ "always existed" could easily be misleading. Through sharing in the divine attribute of eternity he exists timelessly, given that eternity is in itself timeless. Even the classical definition of eternity left by Boethius, "interminabilis vitae tota simul et perfecta possessio" (the all-at-once, complete, and perfect possession of endless life) (Consolatio Philosophiae, 5. 6), could misrepresent matters. "All-at-once" (simul) positively and "endless" (interminabilis) negatively recall time and temporal duration. Eternity and eternal life, however, are not to be reduced to any such temporal duration. The eternal "now" of the divine existence means perfect union and simplicity in unchangeable fullness of life, with no parts and with no relations of before and after, no having-been and no going-to-be.[13]...
Brainache is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 06:46 PM   #457
Brainache
Nasty Brutish and Tall
 
Brainache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 16,852
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The real life story of Jesus too is only in the Qur'an.

Things are different from what you have been taught.
That's funny.

Have you looked at the Dead Sea Scrolls? I think you might find some similarities with Islam there...
Brainache is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2017, 07:07 PM   #458
Hungry81
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,516
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The real life story of Jesus too is only in the Qur'an.

Things are different from what you have been taught.
I can play that game too.

The real life story of Abraham is only in the Torah. The real life story of Jesus is only in the Bible.

Things are different from what you have been taught.

See how unsupported assertions get us nowhere? I have no reason to believe you, and you have no evidence to make me want to believe you.

Seriously, the Quran is only evidence that an Arabic desert dweller decided to co-opt existing religions in an area hundreds of years ago and modify them to give himself power and status, often times by force. Muslims, like many followers of other religions, cant even agree amongst themselves what the "true" version of their religion is, and you expect people at a skeptics site to believe you? Go convert your brothers in faith before even attempting to convert other belief systems.
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 05:37 PM   #459
Emre_1974tr
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 224
In the meantime, there is no separate messenger named Joshua, he is also the Prophet Jesus. I am also writing an article on this topic.

*****

Continue with miracles.

22- And We send the fecundating winds…
(15- Hijr, 22)

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/fecundating-winds/


6- Have We not made the earth habitable?
(78- The Event, 6)
7- And the mountains as pegs?
(78- The Event, 7)

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/mountains-as-pegs/

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 12th November 2017 at 05:40 PM.
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th November 2017, 09:13 PM   #460
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,891
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
In the meantime, there is no separate messenger named Joshua, he is also the Prophet Jesus. I am also writing an article on this topic.

*****

Continue with miracles.

22- And We send the fecundating winds…
(15- Hijr, 22)

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/fecundating-winds/


6- Have We not made the earth habitable?
(78- The Event, 6)
7- And the mountains as pegs?
(78- The Event, 7)

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/mountains-as-pegs/
Those are not miracles and even at that your book makes stupid errors.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 07:14 AM   #461
Peregrinus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,011
Emre,

Either you're trolling (badly) or simply trying to shore up your own thoughts by parading them endlessly before an audience who both don't care about them (to put it mildly) and who find your reasoning behind those thoughts to be more than a little problematic.
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 09:14 AM   #462
Fast Eddie B
Illuminator
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 4,614
A random Koran passage bot would do at least as well.

And would be just as easy to skim past.
__________________
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that...I will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” - President Donald J. Trump, January 20, 2017.
"And it's, frankly, disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write. And people should look into it." - President Donald J. Trump, October 11, 2017.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 09:33 AM   #463
calebprime
Somewhat Elitist Parasite
 
calebprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,341
There's some beautiful writing in the old bible. Ecclesiastes. Job. Even Cool Story Bro -- Mark.*

Paul was a cunning one. Our common language has a lot of his riffs.

------------------

Now:

Are there passages in the Koran that I would enjoy in the same way that I enjoy Ecclesiastes?





* yes, new bible.
__________________
Life sucks, and then you die

( Sung to the tune of the old Time jingle: "Time flies, and you are there!" )

Last edited by calebprime; 13th November 2017 at 09:36 AM.
calebprime is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 09:35 AM   #464
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,736
Is Emre immune to poisons and vicious dog attacks like that other guy? My offer still stands to buy him a skinful of booze. And Emre too
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 12:11 PM   #465
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,089
Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
There's some beautiful writing in the old bible. Ecclesiastes. Job. Even Cool Story Bro -- Mark.*

Paul was a cunning one. Our common language has a lot of his riffs.

------------------

Now:

Are there passages in the Koran that I would enjoy in the same way that I enjoy Ecclesiastes?
* yes, new bible.
The Quran continually changes the subject, and is very poor in narrative.

You might try surah 55, I have heard a Muslim say it reduced her to tears to hear it in the original Arabic, but it may loose some of its poetic qualities in English.

Personally the whole Quran reduces me to tears. I think that 1.5 billion people think it is the words of God is a tragedy.

You can get the gist of the Quran if you enter words like, 'unbelievers' and 'hell' into the following search engine.


http://search-the-quran.com/
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 03:20 PM   #466
Emre_1974tr
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 224
Scorpion is trying to deserve his salary as a Christian missionary.

Their tactics are always the same.

Verse tweeze. it removes it from the context of the verses.

And give faulty translations.

And of course, to try to show the sources other than the Quran as Islamic.

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 13th November 2017 at 03:22 PM.
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 03:31 PM   #467
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,089
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Scorpion is trying to deserve his salary as a Christian missionary.

Their tactics are always the same.

Verse tweeze. it removes it from the context of the verses.

And give faulty translations.

And of course, to try to show the sources other than the Quran as Islamic.
There is only one context to the Quran, and that is its Muhammad's war manual . You must fight and even die for him, and obey him.

I have offered forty translations in a link on this thread.

The hadiths Muslim and Bukhari are well regarded as authentic by mainstream Muslims. Why do you deny them? are you a follower of Rashad Khalifa ? I see your link has his translation listed among others.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 03:58 PM   #468
Emre_1974tr
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There is only .
Are you ( Christian missionaries )getting a monthly salary to say these lies or do you get per article?

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 13th November 2017 at 04:00 PM.
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 04:00 PM   #469
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,696
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Are you ( Christian missionaries )getting a monthly salary to say these lies or do you get per article?
Are you?
__________________
"I have no clue" - King of the Americas
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 04:15 PM   #470
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,089
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Are you ( Christian missionaries )getting a monthly salary to say these lies or do you get per article?
I have the Quran to prove I don't tell lies. It says obey Allah AND the Apostle (Muhammad)

3.32 Say: "Obey God and His Apostle": But if they turn back, God loveth not those who reject Faith.

3.132 And obey God and the Apostle; that ye may obtain mercy.

4.13 Those are limits set by God: those who obey God and His Apostle will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement.

4.14 But those who disobey God and His Apostle and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment.

4.59 O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

4.69 All who obey God and the apostle are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of God,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship!

5.92 Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Apostle's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.

8.1 They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: "(such) spoils are at the disposal of God and the Apostle: So fear God, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: Obey God and His Apostle, if ye do believe."

8.20 O ye who believe! Obey God and His Apostle, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak).

8.46 And obey God and His Apostle; and fall into no disputes, lest ye lose heart and your power depart; and be patient and persevering: For God is with those who patiently persevere:

9.71 The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey God and His Apostle. On them will God pour His mercy:for God is Exalted in power, Wise.

24.52 It is such as obey God and His Apostle, and fear God and do right, that will win (in the end),


24.54 Say: "Obey God, and obey the Apostle: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Apostle's duty is only to preach the clear (Message)

33.33 And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey God and His Apostle. And God only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.


47.33 O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the apostle, and make not vain your deeds!

49.14 The desert Arabs say, "We believe." Say, "Ye have no faith; but ye (only)say, 'We have submitted our wills to God,' For not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey God and His Apostle, He will not belittle aught of your deeds: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

64.12 So obey God, and obey His Apostle: but if ye turn back, the duty of Our Apostle is but to proclaim (the Message) clearly and openly.

72.23 "Unless I proclaim what I receive from God and His Messages: for any that disobey God and His Apostle,- for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever."
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 05:33 PM   #471
Emre_1974tr
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Scorpion is trying to deserve his salary as a Christian missionary.

Their tactics are always the same.

Verse tweeze. it removes it from the context of the verses.

And give faulty translations.

And of course, to try to show the sources other than the Quran as Islamic.
Actually, Scorpion hearing conscience when doing them like robots, but this is his profession.

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 13th November 2017 at 05:42 PM.
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 05:39 PM   #472
Emre_1974tr
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 224
The Miracles Continue ...

2- The Romans have been defeated.
(30- The Romans, 2)

3- In the lowest part of the earth.
But after defeat they
will soon be victorious.
(30- The Romans, 3)

4- Between three or nine years.
God’s is the imperative first and last.
On that day the believers will rejoice.
(30- The Romans, 4)

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03...uest-of-mecca/
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 06:06 PM   #473
Emre_1974tr
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 224
15- There was a sign for the people of Sheba in their habitations: two gardens, one on the right and the other on the left. “Eat from your Lord’s provisions and be thankful to Him. Good land and a forgiving Lord.”
34-Sheba, 15


16- But they turned away and We sent against them the flood from the dam. And We converted their two gardens into gardens of bitter fruit, and tamarisks and a few sparse cedar-trees.
34-Sheba, 16

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/05...logy-and-saba/
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 08:44 PM   #474
Matthew Ellard
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr
Are you ( Christian missionaries )getting a monthly salary to say these lies?
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Are you?
That was very funny.
Matthew Ellard is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 09:13 PM   #475
Peregrinus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,011
Emre,

It's been 12 pages now and you apparently haven't tumbled to the fact that you're pouring sand down a hole.
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 06:25 AM   #476
calebprime
Somewhat Elitist Parasite
 
calebprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,341
Hi, I'll check out surah 55.

So far, every single sentence of the koran I've read without exception has filled me will visceral revulsion.

It's extremely hard to keep reading this stuff.

From my pov so far, it's just awful in every way -- intent, composition, rhetoric, organization, images, scope. Just horrible.

But perhaps some tiny shaft of light came through all that hatred.

can't yet find a readable translation that doesn't insult my intelligence or confine it or hector it.
__________________
Life sucks, and then you die

( Sung to the tune of the old Time jingle: "Time flies, and you are there!" )

Last edited by calebprime; 14th November 2017 at 06:29 AM.
calebprime is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 06:36 AM   #477
calebprime
Somewhat Elitist Parasite
 
calebprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,341
...
[55:10] He created the earth for all creatures.

[55:11] In it there are fruits, and date palms with their hanging fruit.*


[55:12] Also grains and the spices.

[55:13] (O humans and jinns,) which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?

[55:14] He created the human from aged clay, like the potter's clay.

[55:15] And created the jinns from blazing fire.


[55:17] Lord of the two easts and the two wests.


[55:19] He separates the two seas where they meet.

[55:20] A barrier is placed between them, to prevent them from transgressing.


[55:22] Out of both of them you get pearls and coral.


[55:24] He gave you ships that roam the sea like flags.


[55:26] Everyone on earth perishes.

[55:27] Only the presence of your Lord lasts. Possessor of Majesty and Honor.


[55:29] Imploring Him is everyone in the heavens and the earth. Every day He is in full control.


[55:31] We will call you to account, O humans and jinns.


[55:33] O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.

[55:35] You get bombarded with projectiles of fire and metal, and you cannot win.


[55:37] When the sky disintegrates, and turns rose colored like paint.


[55:39] On that day, no human, nor a jinn, will be asked about his sins.


[55:41] (This is because) the guilty will be recognized by their looks; they will be taken by the forelocks and the feet.


[55:43] This is Gehenna that the guilty used to deny.

[55:44] They will circulate between it and an intolerable inferno.*



[55:46] For those who reverence the majesty of their Lord
, two gardens (one for the jinns and one for the humans).


[55:48] Full of provisions.


[55:50] Two springs are in them, flowing.


[55:52] Of every fruit in them, two kinds.


[55:54] While relaxing on furnishings lined with satin, the fruits are within reach.


[55:56] Their beautiful mates were never touched by any human or jinn.

[55:58] They look like gems and coral.


[55:60] Is the reward of goodness anything but goodness?


[55:62] Below them are two gardens (one for the jinns and one for the humans).


[55:64] Side by side.


[55:66] In them, wells to be pumped.


[55:68] In them are fruits, date palms, and pomegranate.


[55:70] In them are beautiful mates.


[55:72] Confined in the tents.


[55:74] No human ever touched them, nor a jinn.


[55:76] They relax on green carpets, in beautiful surroundings.








yikes. that's some sad ****, even without the threatening reps.

even if you cross out the rest of the objectionable stuff, it's still pretty sad.
__________________
Life sucks, and then you die

( Sung to the tune of the old Time jingle: "Time flies, and you are there!" )

Last edited by calebprime; 14th November 2017 at 06:39 AM.
calebprime is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 07:35 AM   #478
Emre_1974tr
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 224
Calebprime, Read the Qur'an in its entirety from beginning to end.

http://quranix.org/1#1
Emre_1974tr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 07:57 AM   #479
calebprime
Somewhat Elitist Parasite
 
calebprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,341
Is the arrangement of verses not arbitrary?

That is, there is no higher-level organization, so it doesn't have a beginning or end.

Also, I'm not interested in being overcome by rhetorical effect. It would be better to get the overview, if there is one.

Otherwise, it's a series of admonishments, oughts, threats, dire threats, and more threats.

I'd like to find the lyrical, human passages, if there are any.

If there aren't any, I certainly don't want to read the entire thing.

In fact, the diction of Do This is the problem.
__________________
Life sucks, and then you die

( Sung to the tune of the old Time jingle: "Time flies, and you are there!" )

Last edited by calebprime; 14th November 2017 at 07:59 AM.
calebprime is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 09:27 AM   #480
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,698
Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Is the arrangement of verses not arbitrary?

That is, there is no higher-level organization, so it doesn't have a beginning or end.

Also, I'm not interested in being overcome by rhetorical effect. It would be better to get the overview, if there is one.

Otherwise, it's a series of admonishments, oughts, threats, dire threats, and more threats.

I'd like to find the lyrical, human passages, if there are any.

If there aren't any, I certainly don't want to read the entire thing.

In fact, the diction of Do This is the problem.
Well said indeed.
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:23 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.