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Old 27th October 2017, 08:50 AM   #281
Emre_1974tr
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

You have yet to explain, as has every other Muslim I have asked, how the story of Jesus bringing a clay bird to life got into the Quran.
See the Quran verses 3.49 and 5.110
Because Jesus really did it.

You Christians, you believe in what the Council says to you.

They told you it was a bedtime story.

But the fact is real.

You are deceived and misled.

And I told you that I answered you.

But as in other issues, you come from ignoring the answers.
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Old 27th October 2017, 08:52 AM   #282
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Old 27th October 2017, 08:57 AM   #283
Peregrinus
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Because Jesus really did it.

You Christians, you believe in what the Council says to you.
Which council? There have been many over the centuries.

Quote:
They told you it was a bedtime story.
Your "it" requires a referent.

Quote:
But the fact is real.

You are deceived and misled.
Pot? Kettle. Kettle? Pot.

Quote:
And I told you that I answered you.

But as in other issues, you come from ignoring the answers.
No, you responded but you did not answer. An answer is meant to satisfy a question. Your responses merely muddy the waters and/or keep the mud stirred up. As I and others have mentioned frequently, gibberish, silliness and simply wrong statements repeated endlessly will forever be nothing but gibberish, silliness and wrong statements.

Last edited by Peregrinus; 27th October 2017 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 27th October 2017, 09:07 AM   #284
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The following translations of the Quran, 36.38 all say the sun runs on to a resting place.


Pickthall- And the sun runs on unto a resting place for him. That is the measuring of the mighty and, the wise.

Arberry -And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing. zoom

Edward Henry Palmer- and the sun runs on to a place of rest for it; that is the ordinance of the mighty, the wise. zoom

George Sale- And the sun hasteneth to his place of rest. This is the disposition of the mighty, the wise God. zoom

John Medows Rodwell - And the Sun hasteneth to her place of rest. This, the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing! zoom

N J Dawood (2014) - And the sun hastens to its own resting-place: its course is laid by the Almighty, the All-knowing
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 27th October 2017, 09:14 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Because Jesus really did it.

You Christians, you believe in what the Council says to you.

They told you it was a bedtime story.

But the fact is real.
You are bloody kidding. You really think Jesus brought a clay bird to life as a boy? The facts are plain, the story comes from a book of fables.
Here is a piece I wrote on it.


The story in the quran concerning Jesus childhood, about an incident where he makes a clay bird and brings it to life is not a part of the Christian bible, and the original texts are considered apocryphal. They are regarded by Christian scholars as having been written in around 150AD, as propaganda by the early Christians, attempting to fill in the missing years of Jesus life.So what are these stories doing in the quran claiming to be a message from God?

The following are two verses in the quran that contain the references.
From the Yusuf Ali translation.

003.049 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in
your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

005.110 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold ! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'


As can be seen the quran speaks of only one bird, and says Jesus breathed life into it. But the only historical text that contains such a story speaks of 12 birds, and they were brought to life by Jesus commanding them to "Go". Therefore the quran does not even get the details of the original fictional document correct. Added to this the New Testament states that Jesus did his first miracle at a time he was around thirty years old. (John 2.11)

Here is the relevant text, translated from Greek and written in, The Apocryphal New Testament, by M.R.James, published by Oxford:Clarendon press, 1924.
The stories of Thomas the Israelite, (not St Thomas of the bible) the philosopher, concerning the works of the childhood of the Lord.

1. I, Thomas the Israelite, tell you, and all the brethren that are Gentile, the works of the childhood of our Lord Jesus Christ and his mighty deeds, and all that he did when he was born in our land.
2.1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the water that flowed there into pools, and made them clean, and commanded them by his word alone.
2.2 Having made soft clay, he fashioned twelve sparrows. It was the Sabbath when he did these things. And there were also many other little children playing with him.
2.3. A certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed and told his father Joseph: your child is at the brook, and he has taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and has polluted the Sabbath day.
2.4. Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Why do you do these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping.
2.5 when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.

There is a reference to this story, and the flaws in it in the book.
The original sources of the quran. by William St Clair Tisdall.
This book is in the public domain and can be found on the Internet.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 27th October 2017 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 27th October 2017, 09:23 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No,

38- And the Sun moves on to its destination.
That is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knower.
(36- Ya-Seen, 38)
Muslim Imams conspire to deceive the population with carefully crafted lies, that attempt to give deeper meaning to the Quranic verses.So when the quran says, at sura 21.33 and 36.40 and 36.38 that the sun has an orbit, Imams falsely claim this is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun had an orbit in the galaxy. But this is utter lies, and the quran is actually saying the sun orbits the earth, and I can prove it with the following hadith.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

As can be seen it says that if the sun changed direction it would rise in the west. But if the sun changed direction in its orbit in the galaxy it would make no difference to the sun rising in the east, because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the appearance of the sun in the east. So this proves that the claim the quran says the sun has an orbit in the galaxy is wrong.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:00 AM   #287
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Hey Emre, here is another story stolen from the same book of fables, (The infancy gospels) that got into the Quran. Jesus is supposed to have spoken from the cradle.

Surah 3.46
He shall preach to men in his cradle and in the prime of manhood, and shall lead a righteous life.


Surah 19:28-34:
"O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot. Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle? He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book and has made me a prophet. And has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive, And (has made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest. Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:09 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

Surah
19:33:
Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
19.34 Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
Whoops, I just stumbled across what looks like a contradiction in the Quran.

The above verses say Jesus was raised alive, but elsewhere it says he was not crucified. So it is confirming the resurrection, but not the crucifixion.

So how did Jesus get dead?
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:51 AM   #289
Emre_1974tr
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The following translations of the Quran, 36.38 all say the sun runs on to a resting place.


Pickthall- And the sun runs on unto a resting place for him. That is the measuring of the mighty and, the wise.

Arberry -And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing. zoom

Edward Henry Palmer- and the sun runs on to a place of rest for it; that is the ordinance of the mighty, the wise. zoom

George Sale- And the sun hasteneth to his place of rest. This is the disposition of the mighty, the wise God. zoom

John Medows Rodwell - And the Sun hasteneth to her place of rest. This, the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing! zoom

N J Dawood (2014) - And the sun hastens to its own resting-place: its course is laid by the Almighty, the All-knowing


You missionaries can not do anything but refuge in translation mistakes

The true translation is:

38- And the Sun moves on to its destination.
That is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knower.
(36- Ya-Seen, 38)

Contrary to the assertion that the sun traced a vicious circle about the earth or that it was stationary, the 38th verse of the sura “Ya-Seen” stated correctly that it moved on to its destination. As in other subjects, in this one also the Quran is the source that gave a correct account of the sun’s motion

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03...o-moves-along/
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:57 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
You missionaries can not do anything but refuge in translation mistakes

The true translation is:

38- And the Sun moves on to its destination.
That is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knower.
(36- Ya-Seen, 38)

Contrary to the assertion that the sun traced a vicious circle about the earth or that it was stationary, the 38th verse of the sura “Ya-Seen” stated correctly that it moved on to its destination. As in other subjects, in this one also the Quran is the source that gave a correct account of the sun’s motion

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03...o-moves-along/
Funny they all made the same mistake. Here is a link to forty translations
some of which are by Muslim scholars.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/36/38/default.htm
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 27th October 2017, 11:58 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
You missionaries can not do anything but refuge in translation mistakes

The true translation is:

38- And the Sun moves on to its destination.
That is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knower.
(36- Ya-Seen, 38)

Contrary to the assertion that the sun traced a vicious circle about the earth or that it was stationary, the 38th verse of the sura “Ya-Seen” stated correctly that it moved on to its destination. As in other subjects, in this one also the Quran is the source that gave a correct account of the sun’s motion

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03...o-moves-along/
What is the sun's destination?
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:10 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You are bloody kidding. You really think Jesus brought a clay bird to life as a boy? The facts are plain, the story comes from a book of fables.
.
The Qur'an tells the truth of the incident.

As I said,

You Christians, you believe in what the Council says to you.

They told you it was a bedtime story.

But the fact is real.

You are deceived and misled.

Real events have been turned into fairy tales.

Tales are brought to reality.

The truth lies in your sources mixed in.

In reality,

Trinity is lie, tale.

Jesus brought a clay bird to life is real.
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:11 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Funny they all made the same mistake. Here is a link to forty translations
some of which are by Muslim scholars.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/36/38/default.htm
This is because the Islamic world is far from Islam.

I gave you the real translation.
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:17 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:



.
Hadiths are rumors.

The only source of Islam is the Qur'an.

Having to take refuge in the religion of the hadith means that you accept the defeat.

All you can do is to take refuge in translation mistakes and non-Qur'anic sources.

You gave up quickly.
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:21 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Hey Emre, here is another story stolen from the same book of fables,.

Like I said, they gave you the truth as fairy tales and the fairy tale as real

The Qur'an, the only holy book in our hand, gives true information.
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:22 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The Qur'an tells the truth of the incident.
As I said, Jesus brought a clay bird to life is real.
You utter clown. I have given the references for the origin of this story.

It says Jesus made 12 clay birds and shouted at them to go.
But the Quran says he made 1 bird and breathed life into it.

Muhammad not only stole the story from a known book of fables, he even got the details of the story wrong.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:28 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Hadiths are rumors.

The only source of Islam is the Qur'an.

Having to take refuge in the religion of the hadith means that you accept the defeat.

All you can do is to take refuge in translation mistakes and non-Qur'anic sources.

You gave up quickly.
I can see why you have to deny the hadiths, because they would make you have to face the fact they condemn Muhammad's behaviour. But many Muslim scholars think the hadiths Bukhari and Muslim are authentic.

Who are you to write them off? I might think you are a submitter who follows the Rashad Khalifa Quran. They reject the hadiths too.
I had lengthy arguments with one on the BBC forum years ago before it closed.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:31 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

The above verses say Jesus was raised alive, but elsewhere it says he was not crucified. So it is confirming the resurrection, but not the crucifixion.

So how did Jesus get dead?


The Qur'an says that Jesus has been passed away and taken to paradise.

So he died in another way.

Just like the other prophets, he lives physically in paradise.

Last edited by Emre_1974tr; 27th October 2017 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:34 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have given the references for the origin of this story.

.
No, the life of Jesus is the origin of the event.

The Qur'an is the only source of Jesus' true life story.
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:37 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I can see why you have to deny the hadiths, .
The only source of religion is the words of Allah. So the Qur'an.

Hadiths are nothing but rumors.

Like I said, you gave up quickly.
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:43 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, the life of Jesus is the origin of the event.

The Qur'an is the only source of Jesus' true life story.
You should really try reading something other than the Quran. The infancy gospels are a well known book of fables and Muhammad stole from them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:52 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, the life of Jesus is the origin of the event.

The Qur'an is the only source of Jesus' true life story.
Like I said, you gave up quickly.
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:54 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The only source of religion is the words of Allah. So the Qur'an.
That is what we are disputing here. If the Quran is the words of God he is a semi literate, sadistic monster.

The Quran says God said," I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship me"

He must be joking.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 27th October 2017, 12:55 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Like I said, you gave up quickly.
Actually, you are the one giving up.

If you can provide actual evidence that allah is real and actually exists, I will convert.

Go ahead.
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Old 27th October 2017, 01:00 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What is the sun's destination?
Decision place.

For example, the place to end.
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Old 27th October 2017, 01:15 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Decision place.

For example, the place to end.
There are Muslim scholars who have clearly stated the Quran says the sun orbits the earth.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 27th October 2017, 01:17 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Decision place.

For example, the place to end.
And where exactly is that?
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Old 27th October 2017, 01:35 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The only source of religion is the words of Allah. So the Qur'an.
Oh Yea ! The Quran is the absolute words of God. Then it says an ant spoke and Solomon overheard it. Then he talked to a hoopoe bird.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe your position is that if the Quran says an ant talked it must be true?

Quran 27.18 to 27.22

27.018 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

027.019 So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."

27.20 And he took a muster of the Birds; and he said: "Why is it I see not the
Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?

27.21 "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he bring me a clear reason (for absence)."

27.22 But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: "I have compassed (territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with tidings true.
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Old 27th October 2017, 01:41 PM   #309
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Decision place.

For example, the place to end.
Come on, come on. The sun's destination is "Decision Place". where exactly is that? and what "decision will the sun be making?

"the place to end"? That is 5 billion years away.

Try harder to actually post an actual answer.
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Old 27th October 2017, 02:00 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Try harder to actually post an actual answer.
Try even a little to post an actual answer.

If you persist in presenting belief as fact, get accustomed to the fact that very few here - if any other than yourself - will ever be taking in by such ground-level fallaciousness.

Repeated silly claims remain silly claims.
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Old 27th October 2017, 02:17 PM   #311
Emre_1974tr
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post

Try harder to actually post an actual answer.


No name given. But we know that it is going in the direction of Solar Apeks. In the meantime, the sun does not decide, the sun is moving towards the decision.

The verses write that the sun will fold.

Maybe the sun will embrace a black hole.
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Old 27th October 2017, 02:28 PM   #312
Emre_1974tr
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Oh Yea ! The Quran is the absolute words of God. Then it says an ant spoke and Solomon overheard it. Then he talked to a hoopoe bird.


Quran 27.18 to 27.22

27.018 At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

027.019 So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."

27.20 And he took a muster of the Birds; and he said: "Why is it I see not the
Hoopoe? Or is he among the absentees?

27.21 "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he bring me a clear reason (for absence)."

27.22 But the Hoopoe tarried not far: he (came up and) said: "I have compassed (territory) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from Saba with tidings true.
Quran 27:16. And Solomon was David's heir. And he said: O mankind! Lo! we have been taught the language of birds, and have been given (abundance) of all things. This surely is evident favour.


Today, the world of science also learns the language of animals.
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Old 27th October 2017, 02:37 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post

Today, the world of science also learns the language of animals.
Yea, so an ant spoke a sentence and Solomon heard it, right?
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 27th October 2017, 02:46 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No name given. But we know that it is going in the direction of Solar Apeks.
And where exactly is "Solar Apeks"?

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
In the meantime, the sun does not decide, the sun is moving towards the decision.
What decision?

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The verses write that the sun will fold.
Yay. Now we have a claim of an origami sun. How nice.

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
Maybe the sun will embrace a black hole.
Maybe the sun will vanish up allah's butt.

Basically, you have nothing beyond wild speculation.
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Old 27th October 2017, 04:23 PM   #315
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYdwdu3J5CA
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Old 27th October 2017, 04:43 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
The verses write that the sun will fold.
Which verses?
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 27th October 2017, 05:18 PM   #317
Emre_1974tr
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Which verses?
81.1 When the sun is folded up
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Old 27th October 2017, 07:17 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
You do know the rediculous part is not that ants communicate with each other via vibrations, but that Mohammed claimed to understand and have a conversation with them?

You also know that pretty much all cultures have stories about people that could talk with and understand pretty much any animal with or without divine intervention?

If I said I won a dance battle against bees to save the local disco-arcade from being turned into a giant nursery chamber would you believe that?



Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
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Old 28th October 2017, 03:15 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And where exactly is "Solar Apeks"?
Yay. Now we have a claim of an origami sun. How nice.
Sweet! An origami sun that's haring-off towards a decision. How much more convincing can the True Qur'an be!
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Old 28th October 2017, 03:54 AM   #320
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If we could talk to the animals, learn their languages
Maybe take an animal degree
We'd study elephant and eagle, buffalo and beagle
Alligator, guinea pig, and flea
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