ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:17 PM   #241
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,416
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
No ! because I had to wait for a medium to pick me to give a message and that only happens occasionally. Then not all messages are very evidential, so I had to wait for convincing ones, and that took two years to convince me.
Right... The signal to noise ratio was so low that it took you a long time to successfully fool yourself.
Only after two years had enough guesses been sort of correct for you to stop doubting the majority of the readings, that didn't tell you anything.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:18 PM   #242
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Done that - typical mixing of cold reading/hot reading and an audience that wants to believe it is true covers it all. No need for any spirits at all.
Did you get a personal message? because if not you need to go regularly until you do. Then you might get some evidence.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:20 PM   #243
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
No ! because I had to wait for a medium to pick me to give a message and that only happens occasionally. Then not all messages are very evidential, so I had to wait for convincing ones, and that took two years to convince me.
And you ruled out confirmation bias, intelligent guesswork and sheer coincidence how?

Do you understand that careful application of the scientific method is the only way to eliminate these things?
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:24 PM   #244
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,416
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Do you understand that careful application of the scientific method is the only way to eliminate these things?
Yeah, but then a ghost told me I should believe him instead. So science can go **** itself.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:26 PM   #245
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Over 90% of people, given any kind of personalised reading at all but believing it (wrongly) to be their personal reading, will rate it as accurate or very accurate. Did you know that, Scorpion? It's called the Forer Effect. Look it up.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:32 PM   #246
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
And you ruled out confirmation bias, intelligent guesswork and sheer coincidence how?

Do you understand that careful application of the scientific method is the only way to eliminate these things?
I have recounted some of the most evidential messages I have had a number of times.

There was the classic example of a medium telling me I had a brother that died as a baby in the war, and I did not even know about it until the medium told me.


There was the one where a medium told me the spirit world had recently inspired me to do a blue and white painting, but the medium said I did not think much of it. I had not told anyone at the church, or anyone else that I did such a painting let alone not liking the painting. This is one indication that the spirit world can read minds with telepathy.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:39 PM   #247
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have recounted some of the most evidential messages I have had a number of times.

There was the classic example of a medium telling me I had a brother that died as a baby in the war, and I did not even know about it until the medium told me.


There was the one where a medium told me the spirit world had recently inspired me to do a blue and white painting, but the medium said I did not think much of it. I had not told anyone at the church, or anyone else that I did such a painting let alone not liking the painting. This is one indication that the spirit world can read minds with telepathy.
So you made no attempt whatsoever to eliminate confirmation bias, intelligent guesswork, sheer coincidence, the Forer Effect or any other confounding factor, using the scientific method or indeed any other method. That's what I thought.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:46 PM   #248
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
So you made no attempt whatsoever to eliminate confirmation bias, intelligent guesswork, sheer coincidence, the Forer Effect or any other confounding factor, using the scientific method or indeed any other method. That's what I thought.
I was not attempting to reinforce my beliefs when told I had a brother that died, because that is one of the messages that made me believe.
How could anyone guess that , in any case the medium told me his name.
Which is no coincidence.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:52 PM   #249
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I was not attempting to reinforce my beliefs when told I had a brother that died, because that is one of the messages that made me believe.
How could anyone guess that , in any case the medium told me his name.
Which is no coincidence.
We've been through this. There are several ways, and yes coincidence is one of them - make enough guesses and some of them are bound to be hits.

The only way to determine whether the hit rate of a medium is better than would be expected by chance/intelligent guesswork is to first establish what that chance/intelligent guesswork hit rate would be, then collect enough data to find out if they beat it by a statistically significant margin (ensuring, of course, that they have no access to other sources of information). You did not do that, so you have no basis for drawing any conclusions.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 02:03 PM   #250
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,712
Here we go again. Karma's a bore.
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 02:18 PM   #251
welshdean
6 NATIONS 2016
-MORAL VICTORS-
 
welshdean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,017
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Spiritualism is more likely to be the real truth than any old religion, because its teachings come directly from the spirit world, and the dead should know.
As I have said I attended many trance lectures where the spirits purportedly used a mediums mouth to speak. Overall what they taught made sense to me.

Blavatsky was a self confessed fake and if you want to verify that you only have to read the secret doctrine. She says in the opening that it comes from a magic book called the book of Dyzan which was magically treated to be fireproof and waterproof. Then she talks of Atlantis in the Atlantic and we have maps of the sea bed to prove no such continent could have existed. The sea bed is consistent with Europe and America being forced apart by the mid Atlantic fissure.

I know Blavatsky was a fake the same way I know Muhammad was a fake. By applying reason to it.
Is this the same 'dead' that don't even know what the first letter of their own name is.

" I'm getting an old man, a father figure. He's telling me his name begins with a 'C', no? A 'B'? What about a 'D'? Ah yes 'George' as George told me ..."
__________________
"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."
Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP
welshdean is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 05:34 PM   #252
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,097
Some parents will exploit their children to the point of murder to make a few bucks or to live their lives vicariously through them. If a child could talk to the dead or had psychic abilities, there would be myriad examples throughout history.
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 07:06 PM   #253
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,599
It is a little amazing that nearly 150 years after the people who invented Spiritualism admitted it was a fraud, and demonstrated how they tricked people, it's still seen as true by some.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 09:58 PM   #254
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Yep. A couple of teenage girls made fools of many supposed adults with a silly game, and a century and a half later people are still falling for it. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_sisters
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 10:30 PM   #255
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,599
Uh-huh. Quotes from the women who invented the game as children:

Quote:
"That I have been chiefly instrumental in perpetrating the fraud of Spiritualism upon a too-confiding public, most of you doubtless know. The greatest sorrow in my life has been that this is true, and though it has come late in my day, I am now prepared to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God! . . I am here tonight as one of the founders of Spiritualism to denounce it as an absolute falsehood from beginning to end, as the flimsiest of superstitions, the most wicked blasphemy known to the world." – Margaretta Fox Kane, quoted in A. B. Davenport, The Deathblow to Spiritualism, p. 76. (Also see New York World, for October 21, 1888 and New York Herald and New York Daily Tribune, for October 22, 1888.)

"I regard Spiritualism as one of the greatest curses that the world has ever known." – Katie Fox Jencken, New York Herald, October 9, 1888.
And yet here we are...
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 04:26 AM   #256
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,599
Quote:
I am pretty sure they are not allowed to give evidence that would change the scientific paradigm. Like some spectacular world changing manifestations. But they are allowed to give subjective evidence to seekers of understanding, or to comfort the bereaved, and suchlike.
That's very convenient.
Captain_Swoop is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 06:57 AM   #257
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by welshdean View Post

Is this the same 'dead' that don't even know what the first letter of their own name is.

" I'm getting an old man, a father figure. He's telling me his name begins with a 'C', no? A 'B'? What about a 'D'? Ah yes 'George' as George told me ..."
See post 248 where I stated that the medium gave me my dead brothers name. She did not hesitate, she just came out with his name.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 01:38 PM   #258
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,830
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Could have fooled me.
You owe me milk and a keyboard!
P.J. Denyer is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 02:49 PM   #259
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,633
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
You owe me milk and a keyboard!
Sorry.
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 02:57 PM   #260
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,830
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Right... The signal to noise ratio was so low that it took you a long time to successfully fool yourself.
Only after two years had enough guesses been sort of correct for you to stop doubting the majority of the readings, that didn't tell you anything.
Or it takes a while to get to know people, talk to them about who you're hoping to contact and why, and for information to filter back to the medium.
P.J. Denyer is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 02:59 PM   #261
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,830
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Sorry.
Meh, you're forgiven.
P.J. Denyer is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 03:58 PM   #262
welshdean
6 NATIONS 2016
-MORAL VICTORS-
 
welshdean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,017
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
See post 248 where I stated that the medium gave me my dead brothers name. She did not hesitate, she just came out with his name.
Or I could look at post X, Y or Z where you've been flip-flopping like a gasping fish when asked about how or why the 'spirits' can/cannot give evidence of their existence.

The thing is there's too much of 'his name begins with a 'B', oh I mean 'S'' to ignore. Each one of the 'big names' is guilty of those same shenanigans. Each one of those 'big names' will insist that they can't use the spirits for personal gain when challenged to win the lottery, the MDC or any other bet. Yet they charge £500 per hour for personal 'readings'. Personal readings that begin with a 'B' or an 'S' and end with 'a scar on the left knee'. So please, keep your anecdotes, either put up or shut up and leave the poor bereaved alone.
__________________
"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."
Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP
welshdean is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 10:23 PM   #263
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
The thing is there's too much of 'his name begins with a 'B', oh I mean 'S'' to ignore. Each one of the 'big names' is guilty of those same shenanigans. Each one of those 'big names' will insist that they can't use the spirits for personal gain when challenged to win the lottery, the MDC or any other bet. Yet they charge £500 per hour for personal 'readings'. Personal readings that begin with a 'B' or an 'S' and end with 'a scar on the left knee'.
They also, of course, get the occasional much more impressive hit. There are many tricks they can use to manufacture such hits, and if you make enough intelligent guesses you're bound to get a few by chance alone. If there are people who are prepared to keep trying for years until they get one or two impressive hits they're going to end up with quite a few satisfied clients, no matter how transparent their con tricks are to the rest of us.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 10:26 PM   #264
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 79,167
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Or it takes a while to get to know people, talk to them about who you're hoping to contact and why, and for information to filter back to the medium.
Wish Scorpion would read the Psychic Mafia (available as a free PDF download in many places) it goes through how many psychics work.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 02:34 AM   #265
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,416
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Or it takes a while to get to know people, talk to them about who you're hoping to contact and why, and for information to filter back to the medium.
Or that. Of course, once the medium knows who you want to contact and why, they don't actually need any real information from the spirit world anymore. They only have to tell you something that matches your expectations.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 02:35 AM   #266
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,830
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Wish Scorpion would read the Psychic Mafia (available as a free PDF download in many places) it goes through how many psychics work.
And risk loosing that warm, fuzzy, "I know secrets of the Universe that the so called 'experts' don't" feeling?
P.J. Denyer is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 06:26 AM   #267
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Wish Scorpion would read the Psychic Mafia (available as a free PDF download in many places) it goes through how many psychics work.
I didn't know you cared. Actually I have a large library including critical books like ' a magician among the spirits' by Houdini.
I may take a look at 'the psychic mafia', but I doubt it will stop me from remembering the evidential experiences I have had.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 06:35 AM   #268
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Or it takes a while to get to know people, talk to them about who you're hoping to contact and why, and for information to filter back to the medium.
Spiritualist mediums rotate the churches each week and there are around four hundred churches in the country. You may only see a specific medium once or twice a year. The idea that there is some kind of conspiracy to exchange information about the audience in the back room before a service is untenable.
Especially when I used to go which was in the 1970's before the home computer existed.
Besides there was nothing in it for the mediums as I only put a couple of shillings in the collection plate, and the mediums don't even get that. Most of the money goes on the upkeep of the churches, and all mediums get is a small amount of expenses for petrol.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 06:46 AM   #269
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I didn't know you cared. Actually I have a large library including critical books like ' a magician among the spirits' by Houdini.
I may take a look at 'the psychic mafia', but I doubt it will stop me from remembering the evidential experiences I have had.
I'm sure it wouldn't, but it might help you to interpret and weigh them more appropriately.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 06:50 AM   #270
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
all mediums get is a small amount of expenses for petrol.
And lots of people paying attention to them and believing they have Special Powers.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 06:55 AM   #271
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I'm sure it wouldn't, but it might help you to interpret and weigh them more appropriately.
I remember thinking, after two years of attending church, that the simplest explanation for the many accurate messages mediums gave, was they were doing what they said they were doing, and getting messages from the spirits.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 06:59 AM   #272
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I remember thinking, after two years of attending church, that the simplest explanation for the many accurate messages mediums gave, was they were doing what they said they were doing, and getting messages from the spirits.
Well you were wrong. That is neither the simplest nor the most likely explanation.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 07:02 AM   #273
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
And lots of people paying attention to them and believing they have Special Powers.

I sat in two developing circles myself and tried to develop, but I found it too confusing because of schizophrenic voices that talked rubbish. So I decided to ignore them, and gave up trying to become psychic myself. But I watched a friend of mine who was sitting in the circle develop into a medium. His name was Trevor Williams, and even though I lost touch, I know he still practices as a medium after all these years. He was my friend and he was not trying to fool me.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 25th October 2017 at 07:05 AM.
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 07:06 AM   #274
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Well you were wrong. That is neither the simplest nor the most likely explanation.
Unless of course, there really is a spirit world.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 07:19 AM   #275
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Unless of course, there really is a spirit world.
The existence of a spirit world would complicate the universe beyond measure, and imply that virtually everything we have discovered about it (knowledge we are applying very successfully) is wrong. It is as far from a a simple explanation of anything as it is possible to be.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 07:26 AM   #276
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I sat in two developing circles myself and tried to develop, but I found it too confusing because of schizophrenic voices that talked rubbish. So I decided to ignore them, and gave up trying to become psychic myself. But I watched a friend of mine who was sitting in the circle develop into a medium. His name was Trevor Williams, and even though I lost touch, I know he still practices as a medium after all these years. He was my friend and he was not trying to fool me.
I'm not suggesting he was trying to fool you, I'm saying he got lots of attention and a feeling that he was special from being a medium.

A friend of my sister's is a reiki practitioner. She would have liked to be a doctor, but she wasn't prepared to put in the years of necessary study (and frankly wasn't bright enough anyway). Despite never having much money she has never charged anything for a reiki treatment. Giving them makes her feel like she is special, and is helping people. She's quite sincere. Reiki is total ********.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 07:38 AM   #277
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I'm not suggesting he was trying to fool you, I'm saying he got lots of attention and a feeling that he was special from being a medium.

A friend of my sister's is a reiki practitioner. She would have liked to be a doctor, but she wasn't prepared to put in the years of necessary study (and frankly wasn't bright enough anyway). Despite never having much money she has never charged anything for a reiki treatment. Giving them makes her feel like she is special, and is helping people. She's quite sincere. Reiki is total ********.
I have had a lot of spiritual healing, from the laying on of hands. I could often feel it as a kind of warmth flowing through me, and I would often feel uplifted for several days after a healing. I do not think this was because I am suggestable. Because it depended on the quality of the healer if I could feel anything. With some healers I felt nothing.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 07:41 AM   #278
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,599
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
He was my friend and he was not trying to fool me.
It's entirely possible to do cold reading while believing that you are genuinely psychic.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 07:46 AM   #279
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have had a lot of spiritual healing, from the laying on of hands. I could often feel it as a kind of warmth flowing through me, and I would often feel uplifted for several days after a healing. I do not think this was because I am suggestable. Because it depended on the quality of the healer if I could feel anything. With some healers I felt nothing.
Yes, the personality and attitude of the person giving the treatment can make a big difference to the perceived improvement from all medical treatments, whether they are objectively effective or just placebo treatments like reiki. In real doctors it's called having a good bedside manner.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 07:59 AM   #280
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The existence of a spirit world would complicate the universe beyond measure, and imply that virtually everything we have discovered about it (knowledge we are applying very successfully) is wrong. It is as far from a a simple explanation of anything as it is possible to be.
The clockwork of the physical universe will still tick along, even if there is a higher dimension we cannot normally perceive.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:40 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.