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Old 25th October 2017, 08:10 AM   #281
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The clockwork of the physical universe will still tick along, even if there is a higher dimension we cannot normally perceive.
There may well be higher dimensions we cannot normally perceive (in fact such dimensions are predicted) but there is no gap in our understanding into which a spirit world can be shoe horned.
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Old 25th October 2017, 11:08 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Spiritualist mediums rotate the churches each week and there are around four hundred churches in the country. You may only see a specific medium once or twice a year. The idea that there is some kind of conspiracy to exchange information about the audience in the back room before a service is untenable.
Especially when I used to go which was in the 1970's before the home computer existed.
Besides there was nothing in it for the mediums as I only put a couple of shillings in the collection plate, and the mediums don't even get that. Most of the money goes on the upkeep of the churches, and all mediums get is a small amount of expenses for petrol.

Because I'm sure no-one ever has a conversation with, or within earshot, of the medium or anyone associated with them.
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Old 25th October 2017, 02:20 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
No ! because I had to wait for a medium to pick me to give a message and that only happens occasionally. Then not all messages are very evidential, so I had to wait for convincing ones, and that took two years to convince me.

Maybe I am missing something here, but are you telling us Scorpion that you kept going to mediums for two years, before you were convinced that their messages were authentic? Can you see why this may be hard for us to accept?
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Old 25th October 2017, 02:44 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Maybe I am missing something here, but are you telling us Scorpion that you kept going to mediums for two years, before you were convinced that their messages were authentic? Can you see why this may be hard for us to accept?
He has related this in his big Spiritualism thread. Yes he is, in a nutshell. No, he can't see it—or won't.
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Old 25th October 2017, 06:55 PM   #285
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How I became convinced of spiritualism, according to Mr. Scorpion:

1) I already believed in it back in the 1960s, which is why I started attending spiritualist churches in the first place. The end.

See also motivated reasoning, confirmation bias, etc.
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Old 26th October 2017, 06:37 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Maybe I am missing something here, but are you telling us Scorpion that you kept going to mediums for two years, before you were convinced that their messages were authentic? Can you see why this may be hard for us to accept?
I did not go to mediums, I went to a spiritualist church service twice a week.
The first part of the service is a lecture, then the medium gives a demonstration of clairvoyance by giving members of the audience messages.
You can go to church for weeks before getting a personal message. Then the message may not be evidential, but just general advice. So it took me two years to get several evidential messages that finally convinced me some mediums were genuine.
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Old 26th October 2017, 06:45 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I did not go to mediums, I went to a spiritualist church service twice a week.
The first part of the service is a lecture, then the medium gives a demonstration of clairvoyance by giving members of the audience messages.
You can go to church for weeks before getting a personal message. Then the message may not be evidential, but just general advice. So it took me two years to get several evidential messages that finally convinced me some mediums were genuine.
How does this work? Does the medium come up to you and says "You are [name], aren't you? I've got a very specific message from your great aunt Gertrude, who used to live at [address]."

Or do they start 'getting messages' such as "I see an old man. Something with a G, or a J. Who here knows anyone with a G, or a J, or maybe a different letter? He's got gray hair, but he's balding, and he wants to talk to someone in this audience."
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Old 26th October 2017, 06:54 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
How does this work? Does the medium come up to you and says "You are [name], aren't you? I've got a very specific message from your great aunt Gertrude, who used to live at [address]."

Or do they start 'getting messages' such as "I see an old man. Something with a G, or a J. Who here knows anyone with a G, or a J, or maybe a different letter? He's got gray hair, but he's balding, and he wants to talk to someone in this audience."
Like I have said, I got a message from a brother that died in the war as a baby. When the medium told me this it was the first I had heard of it because my mother had never told me. The medium gave me his name and the circumstances of his death.
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Old 26th October 2017, 07:09 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Especially when I used to go which was in the 1970's before the home computer existed.

Well, that settles it! Without computers there is no known way to maintain a contact list for the members of a church, and keep it updated to reflect births, deaths, relocations, marriages and other family milestones. Let alone keeping records of prayer requests, dates of spiritual counseling with issues discussed and advice given in case the same issues come up again, in memoriam donations, and so forth.

That would require some kind of device that could make permanent marks on (ideally) a flat surface using some standardized symbolic code, and then you'd need a whole bunch of flat-surfaced objects which after being marked upon could then be arranged and stored in some sort of searchable sequence. Just like document files in a computer, but without the computer! Doesn't seem feasible.
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Old 26th October 2017, 07:17 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Well, that settles it! Without computers there is no known way to maintain a contact list for the members of a church, and keep it updated to reflect births, deaths, relocations, marriages and other family milestones. Let alone keeping records of prayer requests, dates of spiritual counseling with issues discussed and advice given in case the same issues come up again, in memoriam donations, and so forth.

That would require some kind of device that could make permanent marks on (ideally) a flat surface using some standardized symbolic code, and then you'd need a whole bunch of flat-surfaced objects which after being marked upon could then be arranged and stored in some sort of searchable sequence. Just like document files in a computer, but without the computer! Doesn't seem feasible.
Why would an army of unpaid volunteers conspire to fool people that came to church and only made a small donation in the collection plate? They got no money for it and most churches struggle to pay upkeep.

Mediums only visit the same church once or twice a year. It would be completely unfeasible for them to be kept up with details of random members of the audience.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 26th October 2017, 07:20 AM   #291
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Sorry to keep taking this thread off topic. I tried to get people to ask me questions on my thread scorpions spiritualism, but it keeps going on here instead.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 26th October 2017, 07:29 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Like I have said, I got a message from a brother that died in the war as a baby. When the medium told me this it was the first I had heard of it because my mother had never told me. The medium gave me his name and the circumstances of his death.

Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Well, that settles it! Without computers there is no known way to maintain a contact list for the members of a church, and keep it updated to reflect births, deaths, relocations, marriages and other family milestones. Let alone keeping records of prayer requests, dates of spiritual counseling with issues discussed and advice given in case the same issues come up again, in memoriam donations, and so forth.

That would require some kind of device that could make permanent marks on (ideally) a flat surface using some standardized symbolic code, and then you'd need a whole bunch of flat-surfaced objects which after being marked upon could then be arranged and stored in some sort of searchable sequence. Just like document files in a computer, but without the computer! Doesn't seem feasible.

The juxtaposition of these two posts, regarding a setting where sanctioned itinerant mediums tour from church to church, suddenly makes the picture very clear. And creepy. Very creepy, and not in any supernatural way.

Scorpion, I strongly suspect that you have been victimized at a young impressionable age by an organization that, perhaps with the best intentions (ensuring your salvation and all that), practiced a deception that constituted a subtle but far-reaching evil.

In this tragic context, my sarcastic tone about computers (a swipe at tech fetishism, not anyone or anything this thread is about) seems quite out of place, and I apologize for it.
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Old 26th October 2017, 07:39 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Why would an army of unpaid volunteers conspire to fool people that came to church and only made a small donation in the collection plate? They got no money for it and most churches struggle to pay upkeep.

Mediums only visit the same church once or twice a year. It would be completely unfeasible for them to be kept up with details of random members of the audience.
Depends how important the attention and respect they get as a medium is to them. You'd be surprised the amount of trouble people will go to to get attention and respect. This could well be the most important thing in their lives.

Just think about the hours people are prepared to put in to maintain their skills at a sport, or a musical instrument. Why would it be any different for someone whose skill is to convince people of their psychic abilities?
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Old 26th October 2017, 07:54 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Scorpion, I strongly suspect that you have been victimized at a young impressionable age by an organization that, perhaps with the best intentions (ensuring your salvation and all that), practiced a deception that constituted a subtle but far-reaching evil.
It's likely that several members of Scorpion's congregation understood that he was hoping to hear some personal messages. There's no way of knowing how they eventually obtained appropriate "messages" but their motivation for doing so is not hard to see.
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Old 26th October 2017, 08:13 AM   #295
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Or ! maybe there is a spirit world.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 26th October 2017, 08:16 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Why would an army of unpaid volunteers conspire to fool people that came to church and only made a small donation in the collection plate? They got no money for it and most churches struggle to pay upkeep.

Mediums only visit the same church once or twice a year. It would be completely unfeasible for them to be kept up with details of random members of the audience.

What army of volunteers?

It requires only that the medium gets a ten-minute briefing from the pastor (or whatever the church leader's title is) before the performance. "Anything good this week?" "Well, Widow MacKenzie has been dreaming about her husband. The Eugenes came into some money but they don't want their neighbors to find out about it. Mary Peters has been praying for a new baby. Oh, and young master Scorpion doesn't know he had a brother who died in infancy in the war, and I think he's old enough now to learn about it." Even the simple written records of prayer requests and so forth I talked about wouldn't be necessary, if the pastor has a good memory.

Think about it. That miracle of psychic revelation that has colored your view of how the universe works ever since depends entirely, for its miraculous nature, on the pastor never having told something, that he probably knew from your mother, to a medium who he invited into his church as a spiritual colleague.
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Old 26th October 2017, 08:21 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Why would an army of unpaid volunteers conspire to fool people that came to church and only made a small donation in the collection plate? They got no money for it and most churches struggle to pay upkeep.

Mediums only visit the same church once or twice a year. It would be completely unfeasible for them to be kept up with details of random members of the audience.
The mediums may have considered it to be a way to advertise services, giving demonstrations of their "abilities" in the hope that congregants might later seek them out for private paid consultations.
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Old 26th October 2017, 08:24 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
What army of volunteers?

It requires only that the medium gets a ten-minute briefing from the pastor (or whatever the church leader's title is) before the performance. "Anything good this week?" "Well, Widow MacKenzie has been dreaming about her husband. The Eugenes came into some money but they don't want their neighbors to find out about it. Mary Peters has been praying for a new baby. Oh, and young master Scorpion doesn't know he had a brother who died in infancy in the war, and I think he's old enough now to learn about it." Even the simple written records of prayer requests and so forth I talked about wouldn't be necessary, if the pastor has a good memory.

Think about it. That miracle of psychic revelation that has colored your view of how the universe works ever since depends entirely, for its miraculous nature, on the pastor never having told something, that he probably knew from your mother, to a medium who he invited into his church as a spiritual colleague.
Spiritualist churches don't have pastors, they have admin who volunteer to keep the church running.
My mother had never been to the church, and she did not believe in it.
When I went home after getting the message my mother was at the kitchen sink washing up. I said to her "Mother did you have a baby named Lawrence that died in the war" She looked up and said "yes" So I said "well I just had a message from him and he wanted to be remembered to you" She shrugged her shoulders and went back to the washing up. We did not talk about it again for years, but my mother finally came to believe the message must have been genuine.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 26th October 2017 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 26th October 2017, 09:04 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Spiritualist churches don't have pastors, they have admin who volunteer to keep the church running.
My mother had never been to the church, and she did not believe in it.
When I went home after getting the message my mother was at the kitchen sink washing up. I said to her "Mother did you have a baby named Lawrence that died in the war" She looked up and said "yes" So I said "well I just had a message from him and he wanted to be remembered to you" She shrugged her shoulders and went back to the washing up. We did not talk about it again for years, but my mother finally came to believe the message must have been genuine.

Okay, that means the connection must have been less direct than I surmised.

We both believe in a shadowy hidden dimension of life experience whence revelations occasionally emerge out of a perpetual swirl of shrouded information. You call it the spirit world, and think it exists on some alternate plane of reality. I call it family secrets and gossip, and think it exists firmly in the realm of human interactions.

Either setting works equally well for your story.
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Old 26th October 2017, 09:12 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I did not go to mediums, I went to a spiritualist church service twice a week.
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Like I have said, I got a message ..When the medium told me..
These little holes in your story would sink an ocean liner.
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Old 26th October 2017, 09:17 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It's likely that several members of Scorpion's congregation understood that he was hoping to hear some personal messages. There's no way of knowing how they eventually obtained appropriate "messages" but their motivation for doing so is not hard to see.
Add to this Scorpion's mental illness; with no disrespect intended; and it's not at all surprising that he would take the route he has.
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Old 26th October 2017, 09:32 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Add to this Scorpion's mental illness; with no disrespect intended; and it's not at all surprising that he would take the route he has.
Psychiatrists I have encountered have not believes me about my psychic experiences either. Which is why I dispensed with their services.
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Old 26th October 2017, 09:37 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Spiritualist churches don't have pastors, they have admin who volunteer to keep the church running.
My mother had never been to the church, and she did not believe in it.
When I went home after getting the message my mother was at the kitchen sink washing up. I said to her "Mother did you have a baby named Lawrence that died in the war" She looked up and said "yes" So I said "well I just had a message from him and he wanted to be remembered to you" She shrugged her shoulders and went back to the washing up. We did not talk about it again for years, but my mother finally came to believe the message must have been genuine.
Your mother's lack of surprise at the time suggests several possibilities: perhaps this information was not as difficult to obtain as you seem to believe. Perhaps she provided it herself: I can certainly think of reasons why she might do so, and then shrug it off, whether she herself was a believer or not. I can also think of reasons why she might later agree with you that it was genuine, even though she actually remained unconvinced or was even the person who supplied it.

You're basically taking a lot of things on trust. As has already been suggested, there are good reasons why people might sometimes deceive someone they know, or even love.
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Old 26th October 2017, 09:43 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Your mother's lack of surprise at the time suggests several possibilities: perhaps this information was not as difficult to obtain as you seem to believe. Perhaps she provided it herself
At the dinner table about 15 years ago my uncle and mother were present, and the subject of the message came up in discussion. My uncle said to her "you had a baby that died in the war, I didn't know that" and my mother said "well I didn't go around telling everyone".

She did not even tell her own brother let alone strangers.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 26th October 2017, 09:52 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
At the dinner table about 15 years ago my uncle and mother were present, and the subject of the message came up in discussion. My uncle said to her "you had a baby that died in the war, I didn't know that" and my mother said "well I didn't go around telling everyone".

She did not even tell her own brother let alone strangers.
But she might have told a member of your congregation who persuaded her that doing so would enable them to give you spiritual comfort, if she knew how much that would help you.

Or maybe it wasn't even true, and your mother only told you it was true because she could see how important it was to you to have received a verifiable message. That would certainly explain why it was news to your uncle.

There are many possibilities, and no way to test any of them.
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Old 26th October 2017, 10:03 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
But she might have told a member of your congregation who persuaded her that doing so would enable them to give you spiritual comfort, if she knew how much that would help you.

Or maybe it wasn't even true, and your mother only told you it was true because she could see how important it was to you to have received a verifiable message. That would certainly explain why it was news to your uncle.

There are many possibilities, and no way to test any of them.
My mother never went to the church, did not know anyone there, and she did not believe. As for her lying to me, that's just fanciful.

I can't speak to her or my uncle about it now unless I go back to church and get a message from them, because they are both dead.
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Old 26th October 2017, 10:15 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
My mother never went to the church, did not know anyone there, and she did not believe.
None of which would have prevented a member of your congregation seeking her out and persuading her to part with the information in order to help you.

Quote:
As for her lying to me, that's just fanciful.
It's speculation, certainly. Speculation is all that's possible in the circumstances, for both of us.

I'm not going to speculate further because there's nothing to be gained. Clearly you are not prepared to reconsider your beliefs no matter how many plausible alternative explanations are offered. That's your prerogative, of course, but don't expect your anecdotes to be taken any more seriously next time you trot them out.
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Old 26th October 2017, 10:16 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I can't speak to her or my uncle about it now unless I go back to church and get a message from them, because they are both dead.
It's very weird how, with your strong belief, you don't bother to do exactly this.
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Old 26th October 2017, 10:33 AM   #309
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
None of which would have prevented a member of your congregation seeking her out and persuading her to part with the information in order to help you.
Or less Machievallian (although deliberately seeking out information is far from out of the question), someone who knew Scorpion's mother during the war and happens to mention in conversation to someone else, "I think I knew his mother during the war, poor woman, she had another little boy that died....". Assuming of course that the anecdote is reasonably accurately presented and hasn't become distorted by the well known vagaries of human memory.
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Old 26th October 2017, 01:31 PM   #310
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Another option, of course, is that one of the volunteers from the church did a little background research. It's not very hard to look at records of births and deaths.
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Old 26th October 2017, 02:06 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
At the dinner table about 15 years ago my uncle and mother were present, and the subject of the message came up in discussion. My uncle said to her "you had a baby that died in the war, I didn't know that" and my mother said "well I didn't go around telling everyone".

She did not even tell her own brother let alone strangers.

This is getting very hard to believe.

Your mother was pregnant and gave birth without telling her own brother?

They can't have been very close.
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Old 26th October 2017, 02:14 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Like I have said, I got a message from a brother that died in the war as a baby. When the medium told me this it was the first I had heard of it because my mother had never told me. The medium gave me his name and the circumstances of his death.

We can deduce from your previous revelations then that your brother had not gone on to another reincarnation at this stage. Did the medium say he appeared as a grown man in his prime like you mentioned in previous posts?
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Old 26th October 2017, 02:17 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Psychiatrists I have encountered have not believes me about my psychic experiences either. Which is why I dispensed with their services.

How many shrinks have you been to see and why did you see them?

I have never been to one in my life.
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Old 26th October 2017, 09:02 PM   #314
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Eh, never mind.

Last edited by The Norseman; 26th October 2017 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 26th October 2017, 09:11 PM   #315
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In the absence of catastrophic estrangement, your uncle would know that his sister had given birth to a boy who died as an infant. He might not known if his sister had suffered a miscarriage at an early stage of pregnancy, but then that wouldn't be quite the same. Even it had been something like a miscarriage, your grandparents would have known, if your mom had a sister she'd likely have known, medical staff at the local hospital knew, close friends and clergy knew, etc. If anything remotely like your mother losing your older brother as a baby ever happened, then people knew.

Alternatively, nothing like this happened at all and your mother's shrugging reaction was simply an effort to humor you.
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Old 26th October 2017, 10:30 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Alternatively, nothing like this happened at all and your mother's shrugging reaction was simply an effort to humor you.
Oh but that explanation is "fanciful". What adjective does that leave to adequately describe the explanation that the spirit of an dead infant communicated with the younger brother he never knew decades later to pass a message to their mother, I wonder.

And why are the messages always so banal? "I'm very happy here". "Give my love to X". "Remember me to Y". Never anything useful, or even interesting.
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Old 27th October 2017, 06:54 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This is getting very hard to believe.

Your mother was pregnant and gave birth without telling her own brother?

They can't have been very close.
It was during the war, both my mother and her brother were in the services and away from home.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 27th October 2017, 06:55 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
We can deduce from your previous revelations then that your brother had not gone on to another reincarnation at this stage. Did the medium say he appeared as a grown man in his prime like you mentioned in previous posts?
The medium said he looked just like me, and I was about 22 at the time.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 27th October 2017, 09:36 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The medium said he looked just like me, and I was about 22 at the time.
Your story is not even whelming us.


Seriously.
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Old 27th October 2017, 10:02 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The medium said he looked just like me, and I was about 22 at the time.
Unless I misunderstood the original telling, this is where the story jumps the shark for me. I was under the impression that this was a baby that was lost. No specifics of by what means or what age but still baby. So if a spirit is in no need of a body then why would they continue to grow and age as if they had one? If you are going to say he had reincarnated and grown that way,( and this time to only the age of 22 I say not a lucky reincarnator...) that would mean it was with a different family so does this spirit then spend time medium hopping to give a shout out to all the past mums? And why would he then look just like you?
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