“The President Pence Delusion” new NewYorker article by Jane Mayer

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New Yorker: The Danger of President Pence
This article appears in other versions of the October 23, 2017, issue, with the headline “The President Pence Delusion.” ...

Trump’s critics yearn for his exit. But Mike Pence, the corporate right’s inside man, poses his own risks....

Pence has taken care to appear extraordinarily loyal to Trump, so much so that Joel K. Goldstein, a historian and an expert on Vice-Presidents who teaches law at St. Louis University, refers to him as the “Sycophant-in-Chief.” But Pence has the political experience, the connections, the discipline, and the ideological mooring that Trump lacks. He also has a close relationship with the conservative billionaire donors who have captured the Republican Party’s agenda in recent years.
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Pence is all about the Kochs and the Mercers, their money and Pence's Evangelical fanaticism.

When Trump gave his acceptance speech, in the ballroom of the Hilton Hotel in midtown Manhattan, he vowed to serve “the forgotten men and women of our country,” and promised to “rebuild our highways, bridges, tunnels, airports, schools, and hospitals.” Upstairs, in a room reserved for Party élites, several of the richest and most conservative donors, all of whom support drastic reductions in government spending, were celebrating. Doug Deason, a Texas businessman and a political donor, recalled to me, “It was amazing. In the V.I.P. reception area, there was an even more V.I.P. room, and I counted at least eight or nine billionaires.”
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Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, a Democrat from Rhode Island, who has accused the Kochs of buying undue influence, particularly on environmental policy—Koch Industries has a long history of pollution—is less enthusiastic about their alliance with Pence. “If Pence were to become President for any reason, the government would be run by the Koch brothers—period. He’s been their tool for years,” he said. Bannon is equally alarmed at the prospect of a Pence Presidency. He told me, “I’m concerned he’d be a President that the Kochs would own.”
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Pence is not out of the woods when it comes to obstruction of justice.
Pence soon delivered a series of misleading statements about Flynn. On January 15th, as questions about Russian manipulation of the election were mounting, Pence went on CBS and assured the public that, during the transition, Flynn had not discussed the topic of sanctions with the Russian Ambassador. But then the Washington Post reported that the Justice Department had wiretaps of Flynn doing just that. The Justice Department had informed the White House counsel about this well before Pence made his statement. On February 13th, Trump fired Flynn, ostensibly for deceiving Pence, who looked like either a liar or a chump.

Three months later, Trump fired James Comey, the F.B.I. director, who had opened the federal investigation into the Trump campaign’s Russian ties. Pence declared that Comey’s firing had nothing to do with Trump’s displeasure at the Russia investigation. Trump, he said, had merely followed the Justice Department’s recommendation. But Trump contradicted Pence within hours, telling NBC’s Lester Holt that his anger over the Russia probe led him to dismiss Comey. Further damaging Pence’s credibility, the Times revealed that, before Comey’s dismissal, Pence had attended a White House meeting where Trump discussed his intention to fire Comey and devised a plan to get the Justice Department to support the move.
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Jane Mayer wrote the excellent, well researched and well written best seller, Dark Money, exposing all the billionaires with their paid for influence in the federal government. This exposé is as excellent as her other work

I've been listening to Fresh Air interview with Jane Mayer on her Pence article. (You may need to find the 10-18-17 program.) Scary stuff.
 
Pence won't manage to be as shameless and slippery as Trump, and he won't be able to charm the base the same way.
I'll take the upgrade, even if it is a marginal one.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Pence won't manage to be as shameless and slippery as Trump, and he won't be able to charm the base the same way.
I'll take the upgrade, even if it is a marginal one.
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He'll be more likely to get the Christian fundamentalist right-wing agenda implemented and as a consequence more likely to keep the GOP in control of the House and Senate in 2018 and 2022 and more likely to get re-elected in 2020. :mad:

Unless he manages to blow up the world (a minuscule but non-zero risk IMO) then better to have an ineffective and divisive idiot than a religious zealot with the ability to get things done - YMMV.
 
I don't get what the supposed "delusion" is. I scanned the first paragraph of the article as well as the quoted passages, and the only thing I could find was that Ann Coulter now wants Pence instead of Trump. That's not really surprising as she has usually had a more "Christian right" agenda, and Trump hardly seems to give much more than lip service to that. And the others who are quoted are suggesting that Pence is less likely than Trump to start a nuclear war.

Is that delusional?

It seems to me that if faced with two very unpleasant choices, the one that is marginally less unpleasant is the option to go for. I don't see anything here to suggest Pence is worse than Trump unless she has buried the lead somewhere.
 
angrysoba said:
I don't get what the supposed "delusion" is. I scanned the first paragraph of the article as well as the quoted passages, and the only thing I could find was that Ann Coulter now wants Pence instead of Trump. That's not really surprising as she has usually had a more "Christian right" agenda, and Trump hardly seems to give much more than lip service to that. And the others who are quoted are suggesting that Pence is less likely than Trump to start a nuclear war.

Is that delusional?

It seems to me that if faced with two very unpleasant choices, the one that is marginally less unpleasant is the option to go for. I don't see anything here to suggest Pence is worse than Trump unless she has buried the lead somewhere.
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I believe the delusion is that Pence will be any better than Trump. At the moment Pence's extremism is influencing Trump. The Kochs and the Mercers are getting the government they paid for either way.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I believe the delusion is that Pence will be any better than Trump. At the moment Pence's extremism is influencing Trump.
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You think he has that much influence? I'm not sure. I guess I prefer him to Trump, but there are always unintended consequences.

It would probably be better for the U.S. global brand, but an evangelical who can get things done poses its own risks.
 
Some rather worrisome comments, to be frank.

I'm sure some of the leftier posters will recall that I've said for sometime that I want Trump to stay in power long enough to take the whole party down in '18 and '20. Pence, ultimately, would be more of a threat. He's sufficiently smarmy that he'd actual get his uber right agenda passed. Trump is failing every day on both the foreign affairs front and on the congressional battlefield. And he's an embarrassment to the party and country and alienating, finally, the base.

An Article 25 or impeachment now would be a disaster. Pence would have three years to actually get things done and in Congress money talks, morality walks. He'd have time to repatriate the party and go into the 2018 mid-terms as the guy who was loyal to Trump but now has the task of reuniting and reigniting the party. No way the Dems would take the House.

Trump needs to be stomached until 2019. He's the Democratic Party's best friend. He's achieved nothing that cannot be reversed, other than his judicial appointments, which are pretty ominous but Pence wouldn't change that - they're coming from lists provided by the far right, anyway.

Bear in mind, also, that Pence gets to pick his own veep! I've got a shiny quarter that says he plucks Tim Scott or Uncle Dr. Ben. After one or two or three years of Trump, the cosmetics and the massive sigh of relief in the black community would be sufficient to keep black voters home.
 
Minoosh said:
You think he has that much influence? I'm not sure. I guess I prefer him to Trump, but there are always unintended consequences.

It would probably be better for the U.S. global brand, but an evangelical who can get things done poses its own risks.
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If you are interested in the answer to your question, read Mayer's piece. If you just want my opinion, I find Mayer's piece compelling. Coupled with what I've observed, I'd say the Kochs via their proxy Pence are indeed having a lot of influence.
 
I too find the notion of a more effective slime ball in the form of Pence to be unsettling. Indeed, I see him as the more evil. As noted, right now Trump is the Left's best friend. But Gaul dang, having to stomach the Orange one 'til 2019 would try patience to breaking point.

The whole stinking edifice of the current White House administration needs to crumble by revealing the fetid swamp it is, with both T and P going down and clearing the decks for less frightful creatures to take the helm. This notion of fixed terms in US elections poses certain problems. Up here in Canada a vote of non confidence automatically starts a new election.
 
Lurch said:
I too find the notion of a more effective slime ball in the form of Pence to be unsettling. Indeed, I see him as the more evil. As noted, right now Trump is the Left's best friend. But Gaul dang, having to stomach the Orange one 'til 2019 would try patience to breaking point.

The whole stinking edifice of the current White House administration needs to crumble by revealing the fetid swamp it is, with both T and P going down and clearing the decks for less frightful creatures to take the helm. This notion of fixed terms in US elections poses certain problems. Up here in Canada a vote of non confidence automatically starts a new election.
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I'm not entirely sure that if Trump and Pence leave the scene that the GOP wouldn't pick candidates who are similar - or indeed more extreme. The Trump/Pence ticket demonstrated that a combination of demagogue Presidential candidate and right-wing Christian fundamentalist Vice Presidential candidate is the right combination.

Now if only the Presidential candidate also had solid Tea Party credentials then that would IMO be the perfect combination from the GOP's perspective. I fear that Trump and Pence may have created the template for future GOP tickets, and that those tickets will not be unsuccessful :(
 
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2018 / 2020 won't be about mobilizing Dem voters, but to discourage average GOP voters from going to the polls.


The problem of Trump 2020 is precisely because of his ineffectiveness: if he doesn't get anything done, people won't feel the pain of a GOP government - voters won't feel the need to go to the ballot boxes. If Bannon gets a single pal of his into the Senate in 2018, Trumpsters will see it as a signal that, eventually, Trump will get the power in congress he needs.


on the other hand, I doubt that Pence would be effective in his personal policies - he isn't really a party insider, and he is a lousy politician.
The GOP leadership might throw him the evangelical bone or two, but mostly they will try to rewrite healthcare, taxes and welfare - and if Pence let's them, the Trump base is going to be in a world of hurt.
On top of that, dropping Trump will make the GOP look like traitors in their eyes.
 
Foolmewunz said:
<some snippage>Trump needs to be stomached until 2019.<and even more>
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Exactly so. Pence is frightful because he isn't an incompetent boob. He's also quite articulate. He could work behind closed doors with Congress to actually implement policies that Trump is too much of a buffoon to get done. His judicial nominations would be worse than Trump's.

As I see it, the ONLY area in which Pence is preferable is military adventurism. He would not be liable to start tossing nukes around like Trump - and that's not an insignificant plus.
 
I agree. When Steve Bannon says someone on the right would make a bad president... :eye-poppi
 
I love that the liberal fantasy that Trump will be removed from office has progressed to the point that they're now getting pre-impeachment remorse.
:D
 
The Don said:
I'm not entirely sure that if Trump and Pence leave the scene that the GOP wouldn't pick candidates who are similar - or indeed more extreme. The Trump/Pence ticket demonstrated that a combination of demagogue Presidential candidate and right-wing Christian fundamentalist Vice Presidential candidate is the right combination.

Now if only the Presidential candidate also had solid Tea Party credentials then that would IMO be the perfect combination from the GOP's perspective. I fear that Trump and Pence may have created the template for future GOP tickets, and that those tickets will not be unsuccessful :(
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I would so love to see religion completely eliminated from political matters - along with candidates who are religious. Especially if they bend over for the wealthy also!!!!!
 
phiwum said:
Must be nice, sitting up there.
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Oh, I'm getting plenty of amusement from the magical thinking about life after Trump. My personal favorite is this one:

If number 1: If Trump is definitively found to have colluded directly with Russia, he would be forced to resign or be impeached.

If number 2: If Trump is removed, Vice President Mike Pence would become president.

If number 3: If Pence becomes president, he should resign too, given that he benefited from the same help from Mother Russia.

If number 4: If Pence resigns before appointing a vice president, Ryan would become president.

If number 5: If Ryan becomes president, he should do the right thing and choose Clinton for vice president. Then he should resign.
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It all sounds so logical. I wonder if the next step is for people to say, why not have Ryan pick Sanders for his Veep?
 
Brainster said:
Oh, I'm getting plenty of amusement from the magical thinking about life after Trump. My personal favorite is this one:



It all sounds so logical. I wonder if the next step is for people to say, why not have Ryan pick Sanders for his Veep?
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It’s funny because the ones having delusions are the Democratic Party. I mean that’s some delusional **** Lessig outlined in that article...
 
Brainster said:
Oh, I'm getting plenty of amusement from the magical thinking about life after Trump. My personal favorite is this one:



It all sounds so logical. I wonder if the next step is for people to say, why not have Ryan pick Sanders for his Veep?
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I think it's great that you imagine that's the issue at hand. It sounds like a ludicrous fantasy indeed.

I don't see many people buying into it, but if they do, you have a right to feel smug.

Even easier: pretend that this is the issue that those who hate Trump imagine and feel smug now. Why wait?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
If you are interested in the answer to your question, read Mayer's piece.
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I'll catch up to it. I avoid reading New Yorker articles online because I get the magazine and it's perfect for the treadmill. I can get 2-3 workouts from it every week.
 
Any preference I have for a President Pence over President Trump is due solely to my belief that, while Pence may ultimately do more harm to the U.S., Trump is likely to do more harm to the entire world. And I say that as an American. I'd fall on that grenade.
 
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What I think is disturbing about this is, for all the outrage about Trump and how much he sucks, people are basically saying that a ho-hum everyday Republican candidate would be even worse.

So how does that set us up on the political extremism/divisiveness front in the coming elections?

All rage all the time.
 
Pterodactyl said:
What I think is disturbing about this is, for all the outrage about Trump and how much he sucks, people are basically saying that a ho-hum everyday Republican candidate would be even worse.

So how does that set us up on the political extremism/divisiveness front in the coming elections?

All rage all the time.
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:confused:

Are you suggesting Pence is a "ho-hum everyday Republican"?

Because the point of the article is that Pence is no such thing. In addition, some of the real damage Trump is doing, while we are all distracted with his appalling narcissism, might be due to Pence's influence and Pence's small circle of right wing fanatical friends.
 
Brainster said:
I love that the liberal fantasy that Trump will be removed from office...
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Liberal fantasy?

On September 13th President Trump dined with Democratic leaders at the White House, and impetuously agreed to a major policy reversal, granting provisional residency to undocumented immigrants who came to America as children. Republican legislators were blindsided. Within hours, Trump disavowed the deal, then reaffirmed it. Ann Coulter was moved to tweet:

“At this point, who DOESN'T want Trump impeached?” - Ann Coulter
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I guess there's always a few hardcore supporters. ;)

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like the spyrokeet before him
pence is too extreme and way too dumb to be president

like the spyrokeet before when nixon was threatened with impeachment
first ''they'' ran the spyrokeet out of office

so when T-rump is on the ropes
first pence will be removed
that is the sure sign T-rump is about to go
 
nota said:
like the spyrokeet before him
pence is too extreme and way too dumb to be president

like the spyrokeet before when nixon was threatened with impeachment
first ''they'' ran the spyrokeet out of office

so when T-rump is on the ropes
first pence will be removed
that is the sure sign T-rump is about to go
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Can anyone explain to me what e.e. cummings is going on about?

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newyorkguy said:
Liberal fantasy?

On September 13th President Trump dined with Democratic leaders at the White House, and impetuously agreed to a major policy reversal, granting provisional residency to undocumented immigrants who came to America as children. Republican legislators were blindsided. Within hours, Trump disavowed the deal, then reaffirmed it. Ann Coulter was moved to tweet:



I guess there's always a few hardcore supporters. ;)

.
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Well, if Ann Coulter is on board, what's holding things up?
 
phiwum said:
Can anyone explain to me what e.e. cummings is going on about?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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It's the 2017 version of "Impeach Cheney First!" The idea is you impeach the VP first, then you impeach the president and presto-changeo, you have a Democrat in the White House. That is, if a Democrat is the Speaker of the House.
 
It's nothing new.

Roughly a third of adult Americans want to see President Barack Obama impeached, according to a new CNN poll released Friday [July 25, 2014]. Support for impeachment cuts down party lines, with 57% of Republicans favoring the idea but just 35% of independents and 13% of Democrats feeling similarly. News article
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Argumemnon said:
Seems you've lost, more than anything else.

If Trump were actually doing anything other than tweeting nonsense, you might have won something.
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I believe you've misconstrued the post. The glow of victory comes not from the election, but rather from the anguished cries of the left and anti-Trump posters.

Posters like the one you are responding to and a few others, care less about the victory and a lot more about rubbing our noses in it.
 
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