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Old 7th November 2017, 06:19 AM   #281
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You can't see that in regards to a UK wide referendum about something that determines the future of the entire UK it is the "will of the people" if a majority of the UK population vote in one particular way?

Really?
You can't see that anyone could disagree?

Not that you disagree with them, but that you can't even imagine them having a different view?
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Old 7th November 2017, 06:30 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You seem to be side stepping the actual point.

Someone apparently doesn't think it is the "will of the people" because a UK wide referendum had different results in different parts of the country.

I really cannot see how you can make that claim - no matter what subset of the UK you use - whether that be Scotland, Wales, NI, Birmingham, the NW England, Shetland or any other demarcation, the UK referendum returned leave as a result.

Can you explain how you get to a majority result not being the "will of the people" because in some places more people voted to remain than leave?

If you want to argue that overall less that 50% of the population eligible to vote voted to leave I can understand the point of saying it wasn't the will of the people, even though in the end if you don't bother to vote you really are excluding yourself from being counted.
8 foxes voting to eat 4 chickens is not the 'will of the farmyard'
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Old 7th November 2017, 06:49 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If you want to argue that overall less that 50% of the population eligible to vote voted to leave I can understand the point of saying it wasn't the will of the people, even though in the end if you don't bother to vote you really are excluding yourself from being counted.
Depends on how much you need to discount the results of a vote, that reasons to disregard all kinds of other non binding referendums, like puerto rico statehood, or catalonian independence.

I would think the massive disinformation campaign combined with the tight results would be a good reason to disregard a non binding referendum as well.
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Old 7th November 2017, 07:49 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You can't see that anyone could disagree?

Not that you disagree with them, but that you can't even imagine them having a different view?
I sincerely can't see how you can make the claim that it wasn't the "will of the people" when the entire UK had the opportunity to vote and a majority voted to leave?

If the result of a national referendum isn't the "will of the people" I really can't see what ever could be?
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Old 7th November 2017, 07:50 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
8 foxes voting to eat 4 chickens is not the 'will of the farmyard'
You've now totally lost me.
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Old 7th November 2017, 07:52 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Depends on how much you need to discount the results of a vote, that reasons to disregard all kinds of other non binding referendums, like puerto rico statehood, or catalonian independence.

I would think the massive disinformation campaign combined with the tight results would be a good reason to disregard a non binding referendum as well.
That's not really the point - I voted for us to remain a member of the EU and still wish we could find some way of not leaving the EU. However I can't say that because what I wanted wasn't the majority that the result doesn't represent the "will of the people".

The UK had a decision to make, the UK voted, the UK decided.
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Old 7th November 2017, 07:59 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You've now totally lost me.
In this tale the English and Welsh are the rapacious foxes and the Scots (and Gibraltarians and Northern Irish ?) are the poor defenceless chickens. The foxes voted for Brexit and the poor chickens are being dragged along.

Personally I think it's a very partial view of the situation and I'm not sure what the alternative should have been. Perhaps the Scottish Remain vote should have trumped the overall Leave vote (which would personally make me happy) or perhaps it should have triggered Scottish independence followed immediately by Scotland joining the EU.

I get why the Scottish electorate aren't happy - I'm not happy; and I can see that as a nation they feel that they should have sovereignty over this but AFAIK it's not one of the devolved powers.
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Old 7th November 2017, 08:01 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's not really the point - I voted for us to remain a member of the EU and still wish we could find some way of not leaving the EU. However I can't say that because what I wanted wasn't the majority that the result doesn't represent the "will of the people".

The UK had a decision to make, the UK voted, the UK decided.
There are all kinds of reasons to do that, it wasn't a legally binding vote after all. And it wasn't even clear what they were voting to do in the case of leave. It didn't exactly give the hardest brexit of all crowd the mandate to do much.
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Old 7th November 2017, 08:03 AM   #289
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Some Brexit good news for a change:

Quote:
In the year after the UK narrowly voted to exit the European Union, there was a small but significant increase in the population's feeling of wellbeing, official statistics show.

The improvements in areas such as life satisfaction and happiness were seen only in England, however. Elsewhere, the rates flatlined.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41893598

It could be that the English, inspired by the prospect of being free of the yoke of EU oppression really do have their spirits soaring - even if the end position isn't quite 100% clear.

An alternative view is that the public are responding to good economic news like low unemployment and an economy which is growing, albeit slowly and are happy regardless of Brexit or even despite Brexit.

Anxiety is up, but not by a statistically significant amount.
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Old 7th November 2017, 08:09 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
There are all kinds of reasons to do that, it wasn't a legally binding vote after all. And it wasn't even clear what they were voting to do in the case of leave. It didn't exactly give the hardest brexit of all crowd the mandate to do much.
That's my view too, but both of the major parties have now decided that they are pro-Brexit presumably to hang onto the 52% who voted leave (it'll be interesting to see whether there'll be blowback from the 48% - I'm not sure whether I could vote for a pro-Brexit party next time around) and the Conservative Party with their DUP bolstered parliamentary majority seem intent on as hard a Brexit as feasibly possible

I'd guess that a lot of Britons are simply resigned to the consequences and simply want to get it over with. It will be interesting to see how public sentiment changes if there is a Brexit triggered recession with hundreds of thousands of services and manufacturing jobs going to the EU and a fall off in inward investment as companies look to continue to invest in the EU.
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Old 7th November 2017, 09:50 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You've now totally lost me.
If you can't understand the metaphor then indeed you cannot understand what I am talking about. Presumably the foxes also cannot comprehend why the chickens don't respect the will of the farmyard.
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Old 7th November 2017, 09:58 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm not sure what the alternative should have been.
A different question and one that would not be and hasn't been solved by insisting that there isn't even an issue and refusing to even countenance that others may see things differently.

Even if the outcome ended up being the same the government would have done well to display empathy, engage with the devolved parliament on exploring compromises or options and moderate their language.

Insisting Brexit is 'The Will of The People(TM)' is simply antagonistic and tone deaf at best.
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:16 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Indeed you can probably find any kind of breakdown of percentages of leave v. remain you want by arbitrarily deciding to use a subset of the UK population.
I'm sure you could certainly find anything you want by arbitrarily deciding to use a subset of the population. But residents of Scotland are a very special subset. They are the subset that in 2014 was told that the only way they could ensure continued membership of the EU was by voting No in the Indyref. This they did.

Then they were asked if they wanted to remain in the EU. Every electoral division of the country said yes. But they are to be taken out against their will and contrary to the assurances given to them.

The subset of the UK population which has had these experiences comprises the population of Scotland, not anywhere else. That subset is not an "arbitrary" subset of the UK.
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:16 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Even if the outcome ended up being the same the government would have done well to display empathy, engage with the devolved parliament on exploring compromises or options and moderate their language..
Well, you do know who's currently running the show I take it?


I mean, just look at Boris' frankly Trump-esque cock up re: that woman in Iran.
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Old 7th November 2017, 11:05 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's not really the point - I voted for us to remain a member of the EU and still wish we could find some way of not leaving the EU. However I can't say that because what I wanted wasn't the majority that the result doesn't represent the "will of the people".

The UK had a decision to make, the UK voted, the UK decided.
The UK voted on whether or not to stay or leave. They never voted for the subsequent detail that they weren't told about, the detail that is now becoming apparent. The detail is now is not good, and as a consequence there is now a majority to stay, at least according to reputable polls recently taken. A50 can legally be withdrawn, and any government worth it sort and with leadership and guts, would now do the best thing for the UK, and abandon the negotiations, withdraw the A50, and get on with running the country in the best interests of the population as whole.
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Old 7th November 2017, 11:12 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And it wasn't even clear what they were voting to do in the case of leave.
This same old nonsense again! The referendum question was clear as crystal.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

The losing side (remain supporters) were perfectly clear what a leave vote would mean right up until the point they lost - and before the vote they constantly harped on about what (in their opinion) the dire consequences of making the wrong choice from these two polar opposites would be. As soon as they lost they suddenly changed their tune and began to claim that the people didn't really know what they were voting for and that there are lots of different ways of "leaving" most of which are very close to "not leaving really."
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Old 7th November 2017, 12:32 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
The UK voted on whether or not to stay or leave. They never voted for the subsequent detail that they weren't told about, the detail that is now becoming apparent. The detail is now is not good, and as a consequence there is now a majority to stay, at least according to reputable polls recently taken. A50 can legally be withdrawn, and any government worth it sort and with leadership and guts, would now do the best thing for the UK, and abandon the negotiations, withdraw the A50, and get on with running the country in the best interests of the population as whole.

Is this a settled matter? I thought there remained some controversy about the U.K. being able to simply say. "Whoops, we changed our mind. Sorry for all the fuss.", and just go back to the status quo ante with the E.U..
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Old 7th November 2017, 12:44 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
That's my view too, but both of the major parties have now decided that they are pro-Brexit presumably to hang onto the 52% who voted leave (it'll be interesting to see whether there'll be blowback from the 48% - I'm not sure whether I could vote for a pro-Brexit party next time around) and the Conservative Party with their DUP bolstered parliamentary majority seem intent on as hard a Brexit as feasibly possible

I'd guess that a lot of Britons are simply resigned to the consequences and simply want to get it over with. It will be interesting to see how public sentiment changes if there is a Brexit triggered recession with hundreds of thousands of services and manufacturing jobs going to the EU and a fall off in inward investment as companies look to continue to invest in the EU.
Look on the bright side, you will become the place people emigrate from instead of immigrate too. So that is a win for brexit.
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Old 7th November 2017, 12:48 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
This same old nonsense again! The referendum question was clear as crystal.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

The losing side (remain supporters) were perfectly clear what a leave vote would mean right up until the point they lost - and before the vote they constantly harped on about what (in their opinion) the dire consequences of making the wrong choice from these two polar opposites would be. As soon as they lost they suddenly changed their tune and began to claim that the people didn't really know what they were voting for and that there are lots of different ways of "leaving" most of which are very close to "not leaving really."
And of course all the lies told about what could happen that their proponents walked back the day after the vote doesn't matter at all. Why else did all the people who organized and campaigned for the brexit run away in terror as soon as they won the vote with lies?
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Old 7th November 2017, 12:49 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Is this a settled matter? I thought there remained some controversy about the U.K. being able to simply say. "Whoops, we changed our mind. Sorry for all the fuss.", and just go back to the status quo ante with the E.U..
I think that the EU would have to agree, and they might well want certain concessions to remain. Going to the euro would seem a basic start.
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Old 7th November 2017, 12:50 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I'm sure you could certainly find anything you want by arbitrarily deciding to use a subset of the population. But residents of Scotland are a very special subset. They are the subset that in 2014 was told that the only way they could ensure continued membership of the EU was by voting No in the Indyref. This they did.

Then they were asked if they wanted to remain in the EU. Every electoral division of the country said yes. But they are to be taken out against their will and contrary to the assurances given to them.

The subset of the UK population which has had these experiences comprises the population of Scotland, not anywhere else. That subset is not an "arbitrary" subset of the UK.
I believe over 30% of those that voted in Scotland voted to leave? Aren't "they" also a "they"?
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Old 7th November 2017, 12:52 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
The UK voted on whether or not to stay or leave. They never voted for the subsequent detail that they weren't told about, the detail that is now becoming apparent. The detail is now is not good, and as a consequence there is now a majority to stay, at least according to reputable polls recently taken. A50 can legally be withdrawn, and any government worth it sort and with leadership and guts, would now do the best thing for the UK, and abandon the negotiations, withdraw the A50, and get on with running the country in the best interests of the population as whole.
Well you would say that.....



As would I.
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Old 7th November 2017, 12:54 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
This same old nonsense again! The referendum question was clear as crystal.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

The losing side (remain supporters) were perfectly clear what a leave vote would mean right up until the point they lost - and before the vote they constantly harped on about what (in their opinion) the dire consequences of making the wrong choice from these two polar opposites would be. As soon as they lost they suddenly changed their tune and began to claim that the people didn't really know what they were voting for and that there are lots of different ways of "leaving" most of which are very close to "not leaving really."
That was part of the what many of us who were on the side of remain were saying throughout the campaign and what the leave campaigners studiously ignored.
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Old 7th November 2017, 01:13 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That was part of the what many of us who were on the side of remain were saying throughout the campaign and what the leave campaigners studiously ignored.
Absolutely. I can remember saying that even if we leave we should should still retain access to the single market, and the leave campaign website was arguing for exactly the same thing, no doubt in order to maximise their vote. Quite a different story now eighteen months on.
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Old 7th November 2017, 02:30 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I think that the EU would have to agree, and they might well want certain concessions to remain. Going to the euro would seem a basic start.
Which is why it won't happen.
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Old 7th November 2017, 03:32 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
This same old nonsense again! The referendum question was clear as crystal.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

The losing side (remain supporters) were perfectly clear what a leave vote would mean right up until the point they lost - and before the vote they constantly harped on about what (in their opinion) the dire consequences of making the wrong choice from these two polar opposites would be. As soon as they lost they suddenly changed their tune and began to claim that the people didn't really know what they were voting for and that there are lots of different ways of "leaving" most of which are very close to "not leaving really."
The remain side were quite clear what it could mean, and the leave side denied that was true. Now that it is becoming reality the leave side insist that was what people voted for.

A rather bizarre claim to make that somehow those who voted to leave were voting not for what the leave side were proposing and championing but rather voting for the worst case scenario their opponents were warning against.
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Old 7th November 2017, 03:33 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I believe over 30% of those that voted in Scotland voted to leave? Aren't "they" also a "they"?
Oh they are very much a 'they'.
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Old 7th November 2017, 03:44 PM   #308
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From Badscience

Originally Posted by dyqik
Those 58 impact papers on the effect of Brexit that ministers are supposed to turn over to parliament? It seems they don't actually exist.

https://tttthreads.com/thread/927877152397197315
Publicising the impact assessments will weaken their negotiating position because they will show that they haven't been assessed?

“it is not the case that 58 sectoral impact assessments exist” (David Davis)
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Old 7th November 2017, 03:52 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I believe over 30% of those that voted in Scotland voted to leave? Aren't "they" also a "they"?
Yes, just over a million of them. If they had voted Remain along with the 1.7 million who did, the UK-wide result would have been pretty much reversed. Mind you, the same can be said about the 1.5 million Londoners who voted Leave, compared to the 2.3 million who voted Remain. And, of course, for every Scottish Remain voter, eight English voters made the same choice.
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Old 7th November 2017, 04:11 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
Absolutely. I can remember saying that even if we leave we should should still retain access to the single market, and the leave campaign website was arguing for exactly the same thing, no doubt in order to maximise their vote. Quite a different story now eighteen months on.
Yeah they basically promised the voters every advantage of EU membership with none of the drawbacks. In fairly short order they were talking about a hard brexit, the very thing the remain campaign had been accused of scaremongering for bringing up during the campaign.
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Old 7th November 2017, 07:19 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I think that the EU would have to agree, and they might well want certain concessions to remain. Going to the euro would seem a basic start.

No: there's very good reason to believe that the EU (or the EC and European Parliament, to be more precise) would want the UK to remain members of the EU even under exactly the same conditions that existed prior to the referendum.

And there are two major factors underpinning this: 1) the UK is a very strong component of the EU (the second largest economy in the EU after Germany, a major contributor to the EU budget, and a major draw in any EU trade negotiations), and thus the UK leaving the EU would be a big economic blow to the EU; and 2) the UK leaving the EU would deal a massive blow to the integrity and (potential) viability of the whole "European Project", as well as acting as a philosophical and practical template for other nations whose populations might be more easily tempted to vote to leave as a result.

And that's why I think the EC/European Parliament would most likely jump on the opportunity to revoke Article 50 and allow the UK to remain in the EU as if nothing had ever happened. I don't think they will push for Euro membership or any other UK "concessions" or stipulations as some sort of price to pay for revoking A50.


On a wider related issue.... my personal view (and one which I've held for many months now) is that May and other senior pro-remain Conservative grandees met with EU/EC leaders post-referendum and had an off-the-record discussion along the following lines: "We don't want to leave the EU, and you don't want us to leave the EU. But we need to give the strong impression that we are diligently and faithfully enacting the will of the people. However, we will ensure that there will be a UK parliamentary vote on the final deal, and you and we will also ensure that the only deal the UK can obtain will be a very poor outcome for the UK. We will then be confident of three things: 1) the UK parliament will vote against ratification of the deal; 2) the UK public will be able to be convinced that in light of the above events, a second referendum is appropriate and fair; and 3) the outcome of such a second referendum will be a "remain" majority. You will then be able to revoke Article 50."

I realise that this has more than a whiff of "conspiracy theory" about it, but I just have a sneaking suspicion that this is the long game here. Of course, I could be miles off-base. Time will tell.
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Old 7th November 2017, 07:40 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
The UK voted on whether or not to stay or leave. They never voted for the subsequent detail that they weren't told about, the detail that is now becoming apparent. The detail is now is not good, and as a consequence there is now a majority to stay, at least according to reputable polls recently taken. A50 can legally be withdrawn, and any government worth it sort and with leadership and guts, would now do the best thing for the UK, and abandon the negotiations, withdraw the A50, and get on with running the country in the best interests of the population as whole.

There is IMO zero chance that the UK government would seek the revocation of A50 without at the very least a) the conclusion of the Brexit negotiations and the understanding of the deal that was on the table, and b) the rejection of that deal in a UK parliamentary vote. I also believe that even with those two conditions, the UK government would not seek A50 revocation without also c) a second UK referendum whose outcome was a majority for "remain".

On the pre-referendum campaigning issue, it's important to remember that actually neither "side" in the debate ("Remain" and "Leave") really knew what a Brexit future would look like in practice. And in that context, it was always inevitable that the "Leave" side would make Brexit look as rosy as possible, and the "Remain" side would make Brexit look as apocalyptic as possible. I believe it's also a truism that a large majority of "Leave" voters really had no idea what they were actually voting for, and did not have the information or the understanding to figure out the true ramifications. I think a sizeable proportion of "Leave" voters did so out of a combination of the superficial attraction of the "take back control from faceless Eurocrats who are seizing loads of our money and loads of our capacity to make our own political decisions" mantra, the insular (and ignorant) immigration issue, and some form of a prevailing desire to reject the authority of "establishment" political parties (and remember, the official position of the Conservatives, Labour, LibDem and SNP was for "Remain") in favour of "outsider" agitators (funnily enough, I think a very similar psychology drove the rise of Corbyn to become Labour leader, and in turn the better-than-expected performance of Labour under Corbyn in the last General Election).

I think that the decision to hold the referendum was a disastrous mistake by Cameron and his advisers - a mistake for himself, for his party/Government, for the country, and for the EU. I think he (wrongly) bargained that he would go to the EU with the threat of a "Leave" result, use that as a device to radically alter (i.e. improve) the UK's deal with Europe, return to Westminster triumphantly waving his metaphorical Neville Chamberlain "piece of paper", ride to a "Remain" outcome in the referendum as a result of his renegotiation, and cement his place in UK political history as a result (in addition to strengthening his position within his own party, and his party's position among the electorate). I also suspect that the original 1970s referendum on entering the EEC was probably a significant factor in the decision to put the "Leave"/"Remain" decision to a referendum, rather than (as should have been the case) leave it entirely in the hands of parliament (whose lower house is, after all, elected to represent the population....).


Disclaimer: I was (and still am) a strong proponent of "Remain", albeit under different terms and under a significant reorganisation of the EU as a whole.
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Old 7th November 2017, 10:57 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No: there's very good reason to believe that the EU (or the EC and European Parliament, to be more precise) would want the UK to remain members of the EU even under exactly the same conditions that existed prior to the referendum.

And there are two major factors underpinning this: 1) the UK is a very strong component of the EU (the second largest economy in the EU after Germany, a major contributor to the EU budget, and a major draw in any EU trade negotiations), and thus the UK leaving the EU would be a big economic blow to the EU; and 2) the UK leaving the EU would deal a massive blow to the integrity and (potential) viability of the whole "European Project", as well as acting as a philosophical and practical template for other nations whose populations might be more easily tempted to vote to leave as a result.

And that's why I think the EC/European Parliament would most likely jump on the opportunity to revoke Article 50 and allow the UK to remain in the EU as if nothing had ever happened. I don't think they will push for Euro membership or any other UK "concessions" or stipulations as some sort of price to pay for revoking A50.


On a wider related issue.... my personal view (and one which I've held for many months now) is that May and other senior pro-remain Conservative grandees met with EU/EC leaders post-referendum and had an off-the-record discussion along the following lines: "We don't want to leave the EU, and you don't want us to leave the EU. But we need to give the strong impression that we are diligently and faithfully enacting the will of the people. However, we will ensure that there will be a UK parliamentary vote on the final deal, and you and we will also ensure that the only deal the UK can obtain will be a very poor outcome for the UK. We will then be confident of three things: 1) the UK parliament will vote against ratification of the deal; 2) the UK public will be able to be convinced that in light of the above events, a second referendum is appropriate and fair; and 3) the outcome of such a second referendum will be a "remain" majority. You will then be able to revoke Article 50."

I realise that this has more than a whiff of "conspiracy theory" about it, but I just have a sneaking suspicion that this is the long game here. Of course, I could be miles off-base. Time will tell.
Sorry, but you are vastly overestimating your standing, your value and such.

There is fair resentment towards Britain and all of those extremely special exceptions you got and nobody else. They will be for most part gone. You won't be getting old stuff back.

In fact, Britain's value for EU is now mostly in Brexit. You are doing such perfect job at it, that it is killing most of exiters elsewhere or outright turning them into sort of supporters of EU.
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Old 7th November 2017, 11:44 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I believe over 30% of those that voted in Scotland voted to leave? Aren't "they" also a "they"?
How can anyone reasonably tell us that a tiny majority in the U.K. is the will of the people of the UK but a substantial majority in Scotland is not the will of the people of Scotland?
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Old 8th November 2017, 12:45 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
How can anyone reasonably tell us that a tiny majority in the U.K. is the will of the people of the UK but a substantial majority in Scotland is not the will of the people of Scotland?
I've no idea, maybe ask someone who has claimed that?
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:21 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
From Badscience



Publicising the impact assessments will weaken their negotiating position because they will show that they haven't been assessed?

“it is not the case that 58 sectoral impact assessments exist” (David Davis)
Well the poor man only works 3 days a week, how can you expect him to do every little thing ?

Extremely well managed, the Brexit process would have, IMO, had a pretty bad impact on the UK economy and hence on the UK as a whole.

At the moment, omnishambles doesn't even begin to cover it. My Brexit-supporting mates down the pub are getting increasingly worried that things aren't going to turn out as rosy as they would have hoped and that David Davis isn't really on top of things.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:44 AM   #317
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Stupidity from the NHS Chief:

Quote:
The health service should get the cash boost it was promised during the EU referendum, the head of the NHS in England is expected to say later.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41908302

I'm virulently anti-Leave but even I know enough to accept that any money wouldn't become available until after payments to the EU cease......
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:08 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've no idea, maybe ask someone who has claimed that?
You have, if your words have any meaning.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:40 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You have, if your words have any meaning.
If I have then I apologise for poor communication as I did not mean to convey that.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:43 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Stupidity from the NHS Chief:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41908302

I'm virulently anti-Leave but even I know enough to accept that any money wouldn't become available until after payments to the EU cease......
Yeah - I know he should be trying to get the money the NHS England needs but this is rather silly.

I've listened to him in the past and he seems quite a sensible person so I'm assuming this is an act of desperation, tying to leverage political embarrassment to get the required increase in funding.

(Plus of course the £350 wouldn't just be for NHS England - there are other NHSs in the UK that have a claim to some of that money if it is going to be dished out.)
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