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Old 8th November 2017, 03:52 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yeah - I know he should be trying to get the money the NHS England needs but this is rather silly.

I've listened to him in the past and he seems quite a sensible person so I'm assuming this is an act of desperation, tying to leverage political embarrassment to get the required increase in funding.

(Plus of course the 350 wouldn't just be for NHS England - there are other NHSs in the UK that have a claim to some of that money if it is going to be dished out.)
Given the number of things that UK's EU contributions would have to cover, I think this figure is closer to the mark as regards the additional amount the NHS can expect annually
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:56 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Given the number of things that UK's EU contributions would have to cover, I think this figure is closer to the mark as regards the additional amount the NHS can expect annually
As much as that? You are being optimistic.
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:54 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The remain side were quite clear what it could mean, and the leave side denied that was true. Now that it is becoming reality the leave side insist that was what people voted for.

A rather bizarre claim to make that somehow those who voted to leave were voting not for what the leave side were proposing and championing but rather voting for the worst case scenario their opponents were warning against.
Well the position is now "no one could possibly have been dumb enough to believe us".
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:03 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No: there's very good reason to believe that the EU (or the EC and European Parliament, to be more precise) would want the UK to remain members of the EU even under exactly the same conditions that existed prior to the referendum.

And there are two major factors underpinning this: 1) the UK is a very strong component of the EU (the second largest economy in the EU after Germany, a major contributor to the EU budget, and a major draw in any EU trade negotiations), and thus the UK leaving the EU would be a big economic blow to the EU; and 2) the UK leaving the EU would deal a massive blow to the integrity and (potential) viability of the whole "European Project", as well as acting as a philosophical and practical template for other nations whose populations might be more easily tempted to vote to leave as a result.

And that's why I think the EC/European Parliament would most likely jump on the opportunity to revoke Article 50 and allow the UK to remain in the EU as if nothing had ever happened. I don't think they will push for Euro membership or any other UK "concessions" or stipulations as some sort of price to pay for revoking A50.


On a wider related issue.... my personal view (and one which I've held for many months now) is that May and other senior pro-remain Conservative grandees met with EU/EC leaders post-referendum and had an off-the-record discussion along the following lines: "We don't want to leave the EU, and you don't want us to leave the EU. But we need to give the strong impression that we are diligently and faithfully enacting the will of the people. However, we will ensure that there will be a UK parliamentary vote on the final deal, and you and we will also ensure that the only deal the UK can obtain will be a very poor outcome for the UK. We will then be confident of three things: 1) the UK parliament will vote against ratification of the deal; 2) the UK public will be able to be convinced that in light of the above events, a second referendum is appropriate and fair; and 3) the outcome of such a second referendum will be a "remain" majority. You will then be able to revoke Article 50."

I realise that this has more than a whiff of "conspiracy theory" about it, but I just have a sneaking suspicion that this is the long game here. Of course, I could be miles off-base. Time will tell.
That might be sensible, but it ignores the emotional component, these people will want the UK to be visibly shown to have been wrong and merge more fully into the EU, and adopting the euro would be a very effective demonstration of that. At this point the UK has to convince them to take them back, as they will be out regardless of if they accept the deal or not. So I think there would need to be some concessions on the UK special status to get back in.
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:53 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Stupidity from the NHS Chief:

Quote:
The health service should get the cash boost it was promised during the EU referendum, the head of the NHS in England is expected to say later.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41908302

I'm virulently anti-Leave but even I know enough to accept that any money wouldn't become available until after payments to the EU cease......
I think he's perfectly aware of that, and is being anything other than stupid. It's a way of embarrassing the government that is restricting NHS funding by citing something that very senior members of that government were happy to stand in front of. Basically it forces their hand to either openly admit it was a lie/unachievable, or look bad for trying to dodge admitting it.
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Old 8th November 2017, 07:29 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That might be sensible, but it ignores the emotional component, these people will want the UK to be visibly shown to have been wrong and merge more fully into the EU, and adopting the euro would be a very effective demonstration of that. At this point the UK has to convince them to take them back, as they will be out regardless of if they accept the deal or not. So I think there would need to be some concessions on the UK special status to get back in.
The UK's leaving is a massive blow to the EU though (while obviously its going to have a massive negative impact on the the UK also).

The UK was/is the EU's financial hub, second largest economy, fourth largest manufacturer, fifth largest exporter, and third largest net contributor to the EU.

The UK represents one of only two nuclear powers in the EU and holds one of only two of the EU's permanent seats in the UNSC.

The UK's military was/is, by some metrics but not all, the most effective in the EU and has access to a global network of military bases including Cyprus, Gibraltar, the Falklands, Belize, Bermuda, and has the potential ability to utilise other overseas territories for these purposes if needed.

The UK has soft power and diplomatic that any other EU member (with the possible but unlikely exception of France) can only dream of.

Now of course its possible that the EU might still say "nerr nerrny nerr nerr can't come back in" to all that, but I doubt it
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Old 8th November 2017, 07:53 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
The UK's leaving is a massive blow to the EU though (while obviously its going to have a massive negative impact on the the UK also).

The UK was/is the EU's financial hub, second largest economy, fourth largest manufacturer, fifth largest exporter, and third largest net contributor to the EU.

The UK represents one of only two nuclear powers in the EU and holds one of only two of the EU's permanent seats in the UNSC.

The UK's military was/is, by some metrics but not all, the most effective in the EU and has access to a global network of military bases including Cyprus, Gibraltar, the Falklands, Belize, Bermuda, and has the potential ability to utilise other overseas territories for these purposes if needed.

The UK has soft power and diplomatic that any other EU member (with the possible but unlikely exception of France) can only dream of.

Now of course its possible that the EU might still say "nerr nerrny nerr nerr can't come back in" to all that, but I doubt it
You were permitted to be financial hub. But you are also not the only hub in EU. (One of exceptions)

What diplomatic power? Yes, were are seeing it in action all the time...

Sorry, but you are not really exceptional case nor really that important. You are way overestimating GB standing in EU.

You might be able to cancel Brexit, but you will not keep all those crappy exceptions you extracted over years. You will lose most of them.
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Old 8th November 2017, 08:06 AM   #328
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There's also the 625million the UK pays to subsidise EU healthcare schemes
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Old 8th November 2017, 08:07 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
You were permitted to be financial hub. But you are also not the only hub in EU. (One of exceptions)

What diplomatic power? Yes, were are seeing it in action all the time...

Sorry, but you are not really exceptional case nor really that important. You are way overestimating GB standing in EU.

You might be able to cancel Brexit, but you will not keep all those crappy exceptions you extracted over years. You will lose most of them.
No I'm not, the EU is going to lose a huge amount of power and influence when it loses the UK.

Glad that you think that's a good thing, but I don't.
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:50 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
No I'm not, the EU is going to lose a huge amount of power and influence when it loses the UK.

Glad that you think that's a good thing, but I don't.
What influence?
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:00 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
What influence?
The ability to use Boris Johnson as a European envoy to foreign nations when subtle understanding and a light touch while respecting local laws and customs is required?
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Old 8th November 2017, 12:24 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The ability to use Boris Johnson as a European envoy to foreign nations when subtle understanding and a light touch while respecting local laws and customs is required?
Or maybe Priti Patel's influence with the Israeli's?
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Old 8th November 2017, 12:26 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
The UK's leaving is a massive blow to the EU though (while obviously its going to have a massive negative impact on the the UK also).

The UK was/is the EU's financial hub
It will definitely be 'was' given the number of jobs in the finance sector expected to disappear to Dublin, Frankfurt, etc. after Brexit.
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Old 8th November 2017, 12:31 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Or maybe Priti Patel's influence with the Israeli's?
Well, you can't fault her work ethic, unlike the Brexit Secretary. Can you imagine David Davis taking histhe Foreign Secretary's work on holiday?
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Expenditure on healthcare
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 8th November 2017, 02:48 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
There's also the 625million the UK pays to subsidise EU healthcare schemes
In this case 'subsidize' apparently means 'pay for the healthcare of British citizens who fall ill in EU countries.' I think Brexiteers just can't help being misleading when it comes to money.
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:17 PM   #336
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deleted duplicate post

Last edited by ceptimus; 8th November 2017 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:19 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
In this case 'subsidize' apparently means 'pay for the healthcare of British citizens who fall ill in EU countries.' I think Brexiteers just can't help being misleading when it comes to money.
There's roughly three times as many EU citizens living in the UK compared to the number of Brits living in other EU countries - so assuming that both groups need approximately the same amount of healthcare per head, there should be about three times as much money (1.875 billion) paid by the EU to subsidize the British NHS.

I don't know whether or not that money does flow; maybe someone posting here will know how it works and post the figures.
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:53 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
There's roughly three times as many EU citizens living in the UK compared to the number of Brits living in other EU countries - so assuming that both groups need approximately the same amount of healthcare per head, there should be about three times as much money (1.875 billion) paid by the EU to subsidize the British NHS.

I don't know whether or not that money does flow; maybe someone posting here will know how it works and post the figures.
Mathematically true - taking into account the ages of said residents, algebraically, not.

ETA: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...es-in-10-years
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Old 9th November 2017, 06:41 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Mathematically true - taking into account the ages of said residents, algebraically, not.

ETA: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...es-in-10-years
Hey when those pensioners get forcibly deported back to the UK that will be good for everyone.
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:15 AM   #340
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There are around 247,000 British citizens aged 65 and over living in other EU countries (excluding Ireland), and 85,000 people aged 65 and over from other EU countries (excluding Ireland) living in the UK.

https://visual.ons.gov.uk/pensioners-in-the-eu-and-uk/

Of the EU residents in the UK - 80.8% (in bold below) are working - source ONS

Table EMP06: Employment rates by nationality: People aged 16 to 64 (not seasonally adjusted)
Date of publication: 16th August 2017 Date of next publication:
Inquiries: Email: labour.market@ons.gov.uk Telephone:
United Kingdom not seasonally adjusted
European Union (EU)
Of which:
Total1 UK Non UK Total EU (EU27)2 EU143 EUA84 Romania and Bulgaria
Dataset identifier code LF9D LFN8 LFN9 EQ54 LFO2 LFO3 EQ55

Jan-Mar 1997 70.4 70.9 58.4 64.3 64.6 63.9 100.0
Apr-Jun 1997 70.8 71.4 59.3 64.7 65.1 64.1 69.0
Jul-Sep 1997 71.4 72.0 59.8 66.5 67.4 43.7 77.0
Oct-Dec 1997 71.4 71.9 59.7 66.2 67.8 44.5 65.5
Jan-Mar 1998 70.9 71.4 60.4 66.6 67.5 55.7 56.4
Apr-Jun 1998 71.1 71.7 59.3 66.1 66.6 53.7 84.2
Jul-Sep 1998 71.9 72.5 59.4 67.3 67.5 58.0 100.0
Oct-Dec 1998 71.9 72.6 59.2 67.2 67.4 59.2 100.0
Jan-Mar 1999 71.5 72.1 59.5 66.9 67.6 51.7 59.3
Apr-Jun 1999 71.7 72.3 58.8 66.5 66.8 55.7 49.6
Jul-Sep 1999 72.5 73.0 61.4 68.7 69.9 53.2 68.2
Oct-Dec 1999 72.4 73.1 60.1 66.7 67.6 64.5 54.9
Jan-Mar 2000 71.9 72.6 59.1 65.8 66.3 66.9 47.4
Apr-Jun 2000 72.3 73.0 59.4 66.1 67.2 62.6 26.2
Jul-Sep 2000 73.0 73.6 61.0 70.0 71.5 54.4 78.1
Oct-Dec 2000 72.7 73.3 61.5 70.1 71.7 52.4 44.8
Jan-Mar 2001 72.3 73.0 60.3 69.3 70.6 56.5 68.9
Apr-Jun 2001 72.5 73.2 60.7 69.8 70.5 61.9 66.3
Jul-Sep 2001 72.9 73.5 61.9 69.2 70.1 59.2 63.0
Oct-Dec 2001 72.7 73.4 61.4 67.7 68.7 59.0 77.1
Jan-Mar 2002 72.2 72.9 59.9 66.8 68.2 58.3 71.1
Apr-Jun 2002 72.5 73.2 61.2 68.6 69.7 60.1 76.0
Jul-Sep 2002 72.9 73.5 61.9 68.8 69.2 62.1 71.3
Oct-Dec 2002 73.0 73.7 62.6 69.4 70.1 59.3 73.7
Jan-Mar 2003 72.4 73.1 61.1 69.5 70.3 57.6 78.6
Apr-Jun 2003 72.7 73.4 62.0 70.0 71.2 55.1 68.2
Jul-Sep 2003 73.1 73.7 63.7 70.2 71.5 57.1 59.8
Oct-Dec 2003 72.9 73.6 61.9 68.7 70.2 55.3 85.2
Jan-Mar 2004 72.8 73.5 62.1 66.2 67.1 60.7 72.6
Apr-Jun 2004 72.7 73.3 63.9 69.7 68.9 78.7 69.3
Jul-Sep 2004 73.2 73.7 64.4 71.3 70.7 73.4 77.0
Oct-Dec 2004 73.2 73.8 64.8 73.9 73.4 75.2 81.8
Jan-Mar 2005 72.9 73.4 64.9 72.2 71.6 75.2 72.5
Apr-Jun 2005 72.7 73.4 63.0 71.4 69.1 81.5 73.0
Jul-Sep 2005 73.3 74.0 64.4 72.6 70.0 80.5 83.0
Oct-Dec 2005 72.8 73.4 65.5 72.3 69.1 82.5 67.2
Jan-Mar 2006 72.7 73.2 66.2 73.7 70.3 82.6 77.4
Apr-Jun 2006 72.6 73.1 67.2 74.7 70.9 82.6 84.3
Jul-Sep 2006 73.1 73.5 68.5 76.6 73.3 81.6 93.5
Oct-Dec 2006 72.9 73.3 68.1 76.5 72.8 81.6 96.1
Jan-Mar 2007 72.3 72.8 66.4 76.4 73.2 80.8 91.5
Apr-Jun 2007 72.4 72.9 67.5 76.4 72.1 81.8 88.8
Jul-Sep 2007 73.0 73.4 68.3 77.7 73.5 83.4 84.1
Oct-Dec 2007 73.1 73.6 67.7 78.1 73.4 83.8 85.6
Jan-Mar 2008 72.7 73.1 68.7 78.0 73.8 82.9 81.2
Apr-Jun 2008 72.7 73.1 68.2 78.0 72.8 84.2 81.2
Jul-Sep 2008 72.7 73.1 68.7 78.3 72.6 83.9 91.1
Oct-Dec 2008 72.3 72.7 68.4 76.5 72.4 80.9 83.2
Jan-Mar 2009 71.4 71.8 68.1 77.1 72.6 82.3 81.1
Apr-Jun 2009 70.6 71.1 66.1 75.7 70.6 81.9 76.0
Jul-Sep 2009 70.9 71.2 67.6 76.3 71.2 82.9 78.1
Oct-Dec 2009 70.7 71.1 66.6 75.5 69.3 83.6 76.9
Jan-Mar 2010 70.0 70.4 65.4 74.6 69.0 81.9 72.6
Apr-Jun 2010 70.2 70.6 66.6 75.6 69.3 83.0 76.7
Jul-Sep 2010 71.0 71.3 68.1 76.3 70.0 82.4 82.6
Oct-Dec 2010 70.6 70.9 67.7 76.2 70.4 82.8 75.1
Jan-Mar 2011 70.3 70.6 67.7 76.9 71.7 82.1 79.6
Apr-Jun 2011 70.2 70.5 67.5 77.2 72.0 82.3 80.3
Jul-Sep 2011 70.4 70.6 68.1 76.7 70.6 82.8 76.1
Oct-Dec 2011 70.4 70.7 67.2 75.5 69.4 81.8 70.5
Jan-Mar 2012 70.2 70.7 66.2 75.0 70.1 80.8 72.4
Apr-Jun 2012 70.7 71.1 67.1 75.7 72.5 79.4 74.2
Jul-Sep 2012 71.4 71.7 68.4 77.1 73.8 80.1 79.4
Oct-Dec 2012 71.6 72.0 68.0 77.2 74.9 79.7 75.7
Jan-Mar 2013 71.0 71.3 67.4 76.7 75.4 79.3 69.9
Apr-Jun 2013 71.1 71.5 67.8 77.3 76.0 79.4 74.1
Jul-Sep 2013 71.9 72.2 68.9 77.5 76.4 79.1 76.3
Oct-Dec 2013 72.2 72.5 69.2 77.7 77.5 79.4 71.5
Jan-Mar 2014 72.2 72.6 69.3 77.8 75.0 81.4 75.0
Apr-Jun 2014 72.6 72.9 70.5 79.0 76.5 81.8 77.0
Jul-Sep 2014 73.2 73.6 70.5 78.2 75.0 81.2 78.9
Oct-Dec 2014 73.4 73.8 69.9 79.0 75.2 83.1 77.8
Jan-Mar 2015 73.2 73.6 70.5 79.2 75.0 84.0 76.7
Apr-Jun 2015 73.2 73.4 71.8 79.4 75.2 84.6 75.2
Jul-Sep 2015 74.0 74.2 72.8 79.7 74.9 84.5 80.0
Oct-Dec 2015 74.3 74.6 72.1 79.1 74.7 83.3 78.6
Jan-Mar 2016 74.0 74.4 71.3 78.0 75.9 80.8 75.2
Apr-Jun 2016 74.3 74.6 72.3 78.4 75.0 81.5 79.3
Jul-Sep 2016 74.6 74.9 72.7 80.3 77.3 83.0 80.9
Oct-Dec 2016 74.7 75.0 73.0 80.6 76.6 83.8 84.0
Jan-Mar 2017 74.6 75.1 71.6 79.7 77.3 82.4 79.9
Apr-Jun 2017 75.0 75.3 72.8 80.8 78.0 83.1 84.3

More than two-fifths of national health spending in the UK is devoted to people over 65 (40%)

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...spent-over-65s

So "... assuming that both groups need approximately the same amount of healthcare per head, there should be about three times as much money (1.875 billion) paid by the EU to subsidize the British NHS" - is a very wrong assumption.
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:43 AM   #341
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Okay, so 40% of spending goes on people aged over 65: that means 60% goes on people aged 65 or under; I suppose a large chunk of that goes on maternity and young children.

Do you actually have the figures on total healthcare spending on EU migrants to the UK? I don't understand that table of figures - the formatting seems wrong. Even with spending skewed towards older people I would expect that with three times as many foreigners to look after, the UK Health Service still spends more on non-Brit EU citizens than the rest of Europe spends on Brits living there. It may not be three times as much - twice as much perhaps?

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Old 9th November 2017, 08:13 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Okay, so 40% of spending goes on people aged over 65: that means 60% goes on people aged 65 or under; I suppose a large chunk of that goes on maternity and young children.

Do you actually have the figures on total healthcare spending on EU migrants to the UK? I don't understand that table of figures - the formatting seems wrong. Even with spending skewed towards older people I would expect that with three times as many foreigners to look after, the UK Health Service still spends more on non-Brit EU citizens than the rest of Europe spends on Brits living there. It may not be three times as much - twice as much perhaps?
Lots of guessing going on there.
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Old 9th November 2017, 08:48 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Okay, so 40% of spending goes on people aged over 65: that means 60% goes on people aged 65 or under; I suppose a large chunk of that goes on maternity and young children.

Do you actually have the figures on total healthcare spending on EU migrants to the UK? I don't understand that table of figures - the formatting seems wrong. Even with spending skewed towards older people I would expect that with three times as many foreigners to look after, the UK Health Service still spends more on non-Brit EU citizens than the rest of Europe spends on Brits living there. It may not be three times as much - twice as much perhaps?
On can make some calculations based on the figures given.


The amount of money spent a year by the NHS to the EU in 2016 was to the tune of 670m.

If we have a population of over 65 costing roughly 2/5th of a health budget as in the UK, 2/5 is probably a figure we can apply to other EU countries, then the total spending of 65+ UK residents in the EU (247,000 est) is 268,000,000 – leaving 402,000,000 to treat the remaining 953,000.

The UK spends 13,400,000,000 on health 2/5 attributed to the over 65 – some 3,350,000,000 for 17 million people of which EU nationals over 65 make up 0.5% therefore cost 16,750,000.

Here we see a difference of 268,000,000 - 16,750,000 -i.e. 251,250,000 in the EU’s favour - what it is owed

The rest of the NHS budget (10,050,000,000) can be divided by the total under 65 population (48,640,000) giving an average price of 207 meaning that under 65 EU residents in the UK cost the NHS 471,104,288.

This means a difference of -69,104,288 – what the EU owes.

Therefore in total, the value owed to the EU is 182,145,712
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:44 AM   #344
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In March 2016 MP John Mann told Sky News
Quote:

We're not sending pensioners to Poland, only 30,000 UK citizens are living in Poland.


There are over half a million Poles in this country and yet we are paying four times more to Poland for health care recharges, than they pay to us. The NHS is losing out on huge amounts of money every single week.

You can read the article here: https://news.sky.com/story/nhs-scand...to-eu-10189381


As usual with the EU, Britain is being ripped off. We're sending huge amounts of money to support Health care in other countries when the money should really be flowing in the opposite direction.
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:46 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Lots of guessing going on there.
If you think I'm guessing, you should look at Belgian thought's posts!
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Old 9th November 2017, 10:18 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
In March 2016 MP John Mann told Sky News


You can read the article here: https://news.sky.com/story/nhs-scand...to-eu-10189381


As usual with the EU, Britain is being ripped off. We're sending huge amounts of money to support Health care in other countries when the money should really be flowing in the opposite direction.
Such as by healthy young EU people coming here to work, paying taxes and contributing to the NHS while, being young and healthy, not having so much call on the NHS?
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Old 9th November 2017, 10:37 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
In March 2016 MP John Mann told Sky News


You can read the article here: https://news.sky.com/story/nhs-scand...to-eu-10189381


As usual with the EU, Britain is being ripped off. We're sending huge amounts of money to support Health care in other countries when the money should really be flowing in the opposite direction.
Why do you think this happens? Hint:The article you quote makes suggestions.
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Old 9th November 2017, 10:45 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Such as by healthy young EU people coming here to work, paying taxes and contributing to the NHS while, being young and healthy, not having so much call on the NHS?
Precisely. They're mostly of working age, as are their dependents, and paying taxes. Brits living abroad have a higher %age of retirees with the attendant increased health care costs, while paying relatively little in taxes.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:15 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Okay, so 40% of spending goes on people aged over 65: that means 60% goes on people aged 65 or under; I suppose a large chunk of that goes on maternity and young children.
Given that there are 2.9 million EU citizens living in the UK, it's more like:

Age 0-64 x 2,815,000 = 60% of spending
Age 65 and over x 85,000 = 40% of spending

Or, to put it another way, for every million pounds of spending, it averages at 4.71 for every person aged 65 and over, and 21p for every person aged 0-64.

It should be noted that - from the above figures - only 3% of EU citizens living in the UK are aged 65 or over, in contrast to 16% in the UK population as a whole. This confirms what many have been pointing out for some time - that generally speaking EU migrants tend to be younger and far less of a burden on the NHS than the native population.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 9th November 2017 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:32 PM   #350
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That Sky news article also highlighted another reason for the imbalance:

Quote:
However, Sky News learned that while the UK does not reclaim A&E expenses for EU citizens - Spain is among countries that do.*
Meaning that the problem isn't EU rules, its down to the poor decision making of the UK government. I mean wouldn't you think that when they noticed that certain countries were claiming for A&E expenses they might have reciprocated or at the very least sought a discount for not claiming them? Instead they went with their preferred tactic, bitch about EU rules when it's their own lack of action causing an issue. It was the same with paying benefits to migrants, UK government complained about being forced to pay them by EU rules, only for the Germans to introduce precisely the kind of restrictions the UK claimed to want and went to the European Court when the restrictions were challenged and lo and behold:

Top court backs German block on EU migrant benefits


So there was nothing stopping the UK but their own refusal to actually do anything. Seems the Eurosceptics will cheerily waste taxpayer money so long as it gives them an excuse to complain about the EU.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:53 PM   #351
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May sounding increasingly desperate and panicky....

Quote:
Theresa May has warned she will not "tolerate" any attempt to block Brexit, after setting out the specific hour the UK will leave the EU.

She said that "11pm GMT on 29 March 2019" is "there in black and white" in an amendment to the EU Withdrawal Bill.

The bill will be scrutinised by MPs next week - but the PM warned against attempts to stop it or slow it down.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41936428

IMO strong and confident leaders don't have to say that kind of thing....
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Old 10th November 2017, 01:43 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
May sounding increasingly desperate and panicky....

IMO strong and confident leaders don't have to say that kind of thing....
Not surprising really.

The EU seems to be playing hardball on the negotiations, talking up the downside of no deal, and suggesting that the British government will be willing to agree to pay 50bn to move the discussions forward.

Either May agrees with this, or moves to a 'prepare for no deal' position.

Both options will split the Cabinet, and might lead to another general election. For May success is simply still being Prime Minister in January.
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Old 10th November 2017, 01:56 AM   #353
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Quote:
but the PM warned against attempts to stop it or slow it down.
What on earth is she going to do about it if that does happen?
Stomp her feet and complain?
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:03 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
What on earth is she going to do about it if that does happen?
Stomp her feet and complain?
I guess she could withdraw the whip but that would backfire on her if she wants to get any other legislation passed.

I think the flaw in her reasoning is that she believes that everyone in the country is as completely on board with Brexit as she now appears to be. Instead there are a lot of constituencies where being strongly pro-Brexit will seriously damage your prospects of being elected.

I'm still really worried that there appears to be no set of circumstances in which the government would even consider not going ahead with Brexit and no consequences which would cause them to rethink their course of action.
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Old 10th November 2017, 03:53 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm still really worried that there appears to be no set of circumstances in which the government would even consider not going ahead with Brexit and no consequences which would cause them to rethink their course of action.
I don't think you're worried enough.

The options are probably going to be:
'No deal' Brexit
A 'deal' which includes paying 50bn and significant EU control over the UK economy
A cancelled Brexit, which includes the UK giving up at least part of the rebate

All are going to be worse than the pre-referendum position, and the UK electorate will be happy to put the blame on the EU (because of course the UK electorate can't be wrong).
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:53 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
I don't think you're worried enough.

The options are probably going to be:
'No deal' Brexit
A 'deal' which includes paying 50bn and significant EU control over the UK economy
A cancelled Brexit, which includes the UK giving up at least part of the rebate

All are going to be worse than the pre-referendum position, and the UK electorate will be happy to put the blame on the EU (because of course the UK electorate can't be wrong).
Oh, I think I'm worried enough, we're already preparing to make the first redundancies because some of our European clients aren't renewing contracts - citing concerns over Brexit.

As far as I can tell, a cancelled Brexit is politically impossible. The two major parties have absolutely nailed their colours to the Brexit mast and don't even have a set of criteria which would cause them to cancel Brexit, much less a process to carry it out. It's a shame because this would IMO be the least worst option.

IMO an attempt to implement a deal which ends up with paying 50bn and significant EU control over the UK economy will destroy the Conservative Party and Theresa May will not do that even if it's the only way to protect the UK economy.

I think that a diamond hard no-deal Brexit is the only politically possible outcome. This will IMO have a devastating impact on the UK both economically and diplomatically. We'll end up with really awful trade deals with the major economies because we'll be so desperate, and they'll know it and our standing in the world will be significantly eroded.

We're looking at years, possibly a decade or two, of economic suffering because no-one will have the political nerve to step back from the precipice. Then again political cowardice from "Call me Dave" got us here in the first place
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:42 AM   #357
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Brexit Blight affecting construction industry

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-bl...ector-11065587
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:25 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
We're looking at years, possibly a decade or two, of economic suffering because no-one will have the political nerve to step back from the precipice. Then again political cowardice from "Call me Dave" got us here in the first place
I'd add a complete lack of pragmatism on the EU side to that list, but I suppose that's not really surprising given what Greece has gone through.
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:38 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
I'd add a complete lack of pragmatism on the EU side to that list, but I suppose that's not really surprising given what Greece has gone through.
Error? Lack of pragmatism on side of EU? That's hilariously wrong. What did you expect? Getting Christmas presents twice a month? Full pardon on your bloody obligations? And all other sorts of sweetest deals of sweetests deals?

If anything, EU is more then tolerant of your idiocy then you deserve. Sorry, but EU is fully pragmatic.

And don't try to use Greece. They were idiots, bankrupt themselves by their own supreme idiocy and fraud. The only non-pragmatic thing EU did with them, was to give them more chances that they deserved...
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Old 10th November 2017, 11:50 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Error? Lack of pragmatism on side of EU? That's hilariously wrong. What did you expect? Getting Christmas presents twice a month? Full pardon on your bloody obligations? And all other sorts of sweetest deals of sweetests deals?

If anything, EU is more then tolerant of your idiocy then you deserve. Sorry, but EU is fully pragmatic.

And don't try to use Greece. They were idiots, bankrupt themselves by their own supreme idiocy and fraud. The only non-pragmatic thing EU did with them, was to give them more chances that they deserved...
Well, when the storm broke Greek debt was owned by EU banks. A default would have hurt those very badly (with heavy repercussions in the more arcane markets) so the Troika spun the pain out long enough, by continuing to bail Greece out, for the debt to become owned by the public. So those 'chances' were very 'pragmatic' indeed - in fact carefully calculated - and after that point they didn't really care very much wtf happened to Greece.
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