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Old 28th October 2017, 04:04 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes true.

Then why do you keep insisting that things people do are not natural?
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Old 28th October 2017, 04:05 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Then what prevail in plants?

If we shall take it like it, cruelty will have no validity. Live & let live also suggest let live subject to live. For live, bigger fish can eat smaller fish and so the other species--conscious or non-conscious.
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post


I can't make any sense of this.

Kumar is saying that he fully supports the effort at mutual understanding through dialog. He slyly refers to Dylan Thomas: And Death Shall Have No Dominion.

He's saying that the small fish bears no ill will toward the bigger fish, even as the smaller fish slides shredded down its gullet.

The small fish -- named Brandy as it happens -- tries to understand.
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Old 28th October 2017, 07:11 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Then why do you keep insisting that things people do are not natural?
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The only trigger for natural selection is whether the changes that naturally occur increase or decrease the organism's chances of surviving long enough to reproduce in the current environment.
It is subject to prevailing environment. If prevàiling environment do not ñeed it then?
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Old 28th October 2017, 07:27 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Kumar is saying that he fully supports the effort at mutual understanding through dialog. He slyly refers to Dylan Thomas: And Death Shall Have No Dominion.

He's saying that the small fish bears no ill will toward the bigger fish, even as the smaller fish slides shredded down its gullet.

The small fish -- named Brandy as it happens -- tries to understand.
The main point was fish does not do cruélty. Smaller or bigger. But now it appear it also does.
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Old 28th October 2017, 07:30 AM   #365
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I'm sure the shark harbors no malice toward her dinner, any more than I do toward my leg of mutton.

The skin is the best.
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Old 28th October 2017, 07:39 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Then why do you keep insisting that things people do are not natural?
It is issue under discussion, If all thing humans do are natural or not. Whether humans have free will or not. If have, then only unnatural can be thought. Even few things which appear natural to us may actually not be natural. There is a difference between natural and natural to us. Anything natural to us should satisfy, whatever to we have inharent sense of right or wrong. So newly introduced things may not justfy this definition even though grew in jungles but new to us.
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Old 28th October 2017, 07:41 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
I'm sure the shark harbors no malice toward her dinner, any more than I do toward my leg of mutton.

The skin is the best.
It means, fishes can be cruel
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Old 28th October 2017, 07:45 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It is subject to prevailing environment. If prevàiling environment do not ñeed it then?
If a change is not an advantage in the prevailing environment, i.e. if it does not increase the organism's chances of living long enough to reproduce, then it will not be selected for.
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Old 28th October 2017, 07:45 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It means, fishes can be cruel
And according to you, carnivorous dinosaurs went to dino hell because eating meat is naughty.

Why should we keep trying, Kumar?
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Old 28th October 2017, 07:50 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It means, fishes can be cruel
Fish cannot be cruel because, not being conscious entities, they have no choice in what they do, and the concept of cruelty is meaningless to them.
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Old 28th October 2017, 08:36 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It means, fishes can be cruel
"Cruel" is a human abstraction; it has no referent in fishes.
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Old 28th October 2017, 10:57 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
"Cruel" is a human abstraction; it has no referent in fishes.
It’s essential for theists to believe and argue that good and evil are an intrinsic part of existence. If good and evil are merely abstract human constructions then their "Good God" and "Evil Devil" are also merely abstract human constructions . . . DOH!
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Old 28th October 2017, 02:32 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
It’s essential for theists to believe and argue that good and evil are an intrinsic part of existence. If good and evil are merely abstract human constructions then their "Good God" and "Evil Devil" are also merely abstract human constructions . . . DOH!
I rest my case.

(In case someone misses your style of observation.)
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Old 28th October 2017, 05:27 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
I rest my case.

(In case someone misses your style of observation.)
Well I have no idea what the “case” you rest is so I had a look at your posts in this thread to find out . . .

Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Do you realize how patronizing that is?
Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
That also is patronizing. Many posts on many threads and still your ability to engage in constructive discourse is practically nonexistent.
Seems your “case” may be that Kumar’s posts are patronising and lack the ability to engage in constructive discourse? But what has that got to do with my post?

Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Cart before the horse. Understanding of nature's rules allows one to describe them through scientific and mathematical means. And yes, atom bombs are one example of nature's laws. A scientific and mathematical understanding of nature's laws allowed the construction of atom bombs. And ice cream, too. Over your head, I suppose, but that's life.
Well that seems pretty patronising so I guess that can't be your “case”.

Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
No. The prime issue is intelligibility. You have none in this thread. You have none in any other thread I've looked at with your babbling posts. Others have tried making allowance for your poor command of English - to no avail. Your posts, and it's therefore likely your thinking, are totally lacking in intelligibility.

Never mind religion, nature, economics, philosophy, etc. for a while. Spend time becoming at least intelligible in English and then try your fallacy salad down the road a ways.
Telling a “foriegner” on an international forum that they’re hopeless at your language hardly seems to represent the ability to engage in constructive discourse (even if it’s true).

Sorry but I still have no idea what your “case” is. Care to explain?
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Old 28th October 2017, 06:51 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
It’s essential for theists to believe and argue that good and evil are an intrinsic part of existence. If good and evil are merely abstract human constructions then their "Good God" and "Evil Devil" are also merely abstract human constructions . . . DOH!
I rested my case since your comment seemed to follow upon ""Cruel" is a human abstraction; it has no referent in fishes." Since you were quoting that particular post, I assumed, perhaps incorrectly that it was meant to expand upon my post and stress roughly the same idea.

Many, many posters here have chided Kumar on his poor command of English and how that lack of expertise muddies the waters and makes many if not all of his comments confusing or even impenetrable.
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Old 28th October 2017, 07:15 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
I rested my case since your comment seemed to follow upon ""Cruel" is a human abstraction; it has no referent in fishes." Since you were quoting that particular post, I assumed, perhaps incorrectly that it was meant to expand upon my post and stress roughly the same idea.

Many, many posters here have chided Kumar on his poor command of English and how that lack of expertise muddies the waters and makes many if not all of his comments confusing or even impenetrable.
Very sorry, my bad. For some strange reason I thought your “I rest my case” was a criticism of my post rather than it expanded/supported yours (which it did). I even missed the significance of the little winky. I’m so disappointed in me . . . DOH!
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Old 28th October 2017, 07:35 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
If a change is not an advantage in the prevailing environment, i.e. if it does not increase the organism's chances of living long enough to reproduce, then it will not be selected for.
When things happen to balance/harmony or for homeostasis, both advantage and harming, creative or destructing things can happen, naturally. One sidedness in nature is that it balances itself. So depending on state of balance or imbalance, things can happen differently. If all are fit perfectly, nature may not need selection or fittest. All can be taken similarly. We simply need to understand, what make it, when all are fit.
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Old 28th October 2017, 07:38 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
It’s essential for theists to believe and argue that good and evil are an intrinsic part of existence. If good and evil are merely abstract human constructions then their "Good God" and "Evil Devil" are also merely abstract human constructions . . . DOH!
Very true. Nature is not one sided unless it is perfectly in balance, when it neither need good/+ve nor bad/-ve.
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Old 28th October 2017, 08:00 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Very sorry, my bad. For some strange reason I thought your “I rest my case” was a criticism of my post rather than it expanded/supported yours (which it did). I even missed the significance of the little winky. I’m so disappointed in me . . . DOH!
Sorry, I feel, it is not good idea to conclude so early and without knowing all sides. Most posters here are bit wrongly perceived about me as if I being purely an alternative system advocator. So make issue of all my odds not care for evens.
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Old 28th October 2017, 08:02 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
And according to you, carnivorous dinosaurs went to dino hell because eating meat is naughty.

Why should we keep trying, Kumar?
Cause and effect.
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Old 28th October 2017, 10:55 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
When things happen to balance/harmony or for homeostasis, both advantage and harming, creative or destructing things can happen, naturally. One sidedness in nature is that it balances itself. So depending on state of balance or imbalance, things can happen differently. If all are fit perfectly, nature may not need selection or fittest. All can be taken similarly. We simply need to understand, what make it, when all are fit.
There are many creatures who are so well fitted to their current environment that have hardly changed at all for millions of years. Should that environment change, however (due to climate change, for example) they will start to evolve again, and if they don't adapt quickly enough they will become extinct. So there will never be a time "when all are fit" and no further selection will ever occur.
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Old 28th October 2017, 11:28 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It is issue under discussion, If all thing humans do are natural or not. Whether humans have free will or not. If have, then only unnatural can be thought. Even few things which appear natural to us may actually not be natural. There is a difference between natural and natural to us. Anything natural to us should satisfy, whatever to we have inharent sense of right or wrong. So newly introduced things may not justfy this definition even though grew in jungles but new to us.

Your definition of "natural" is so arbitrary and capricious that it makes it useless as anything other than a vague term of approval.
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Old 28th October 2017, 11:59 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There are many creatures who are so well fitted to their current environment that have hardly changed at all for millions of years. Should that environment change, however (due to climate change, for example) they will start to evolve again, and if they don't adapt quickly enough they will become extinct. So there will never be a time "when all are fit" and no further selection will ever occur.
Probably, they are so well adopted/evolved to all environments and fit in all changes they do not need natural selection. Understanding natural selection in all beings esp microscopic, can be a very difficult job, so we don't know whether they go into natural selection process or not. Moreover, if they always lived in their normal natural environment, we can assume, they may even not need natural selection and always remain fit. Normal seasonal and environmental changes can not be taken as abnormal changes for which evolution or adaption is required. It is bit complicated subject.
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Old 29th October 2017, 12:00 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Your definition of "natural" is so arbitrary and capricious that it makes it useless as anything other than a vague term of approval.
Yes, it is bit deep & dynamic to really understand it in A&F.
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Old 29th October 2017, 12:09 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes, it is bit deep & dynamic to really understand it in A&F.

No, it is not "deep" or "dynamic", unless you are defining "deep & dynamic" as meaning "meaningless".
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Old 29th October 2017, 12:13 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Probably, they are so well adopted/evolved to all environments and fit in all changes they do not need natural selection.
Until their environment changes.

Quote:
Understanding natural selection in all beings esp microscopic, can be a very difficult job, so we don't know whether they go into natural selection process or not.
DNA analysis of related species tells us a great deal about how much (or little) they have changed, and are currently changing, due to natural selection.

Quote:
Moreover, if they always lived in their normal natural environment, we can assume, they may even not need natural selection and always remain fit.
Until their normal natural environment changes.

Quote:
Normal seasonal and environmental changes can not be taken as abnormal changes for which evolution or adaption is required.
Lots of the adaptations that have been selected help with coping with seasonal changes. Hibernation, for example.

Quote:
It is bit complicated subject.
It is indeed. So complicated that it's a good idea to thoroughly educate yourself about the subject before embarking on any speculation about it.
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Old 29th October 2017, 12:15 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Probably, they are so well adopted/evolved to all environments and fit in all changes they do not need natural selection.

Nope, natural selection still operates on them to select those traits that are most successful in their current environment. Otherwise they would change in a random manner. The most suitable traits, in their particular environment, just happen to be the ones they already have.
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Old 29th October 2017, 12:24 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Until their environment changes.
We may need to well define, what can be an environment change to any being which can change it genetically. It can be big and interesting subject.

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DNA analysis of related species tells us a great deal about how much (or little) they have changed, and are currently changing, due to natural selection.


Until their normal natural environment changes.


Lots of the adaptations that have been selected help with coping with seasonal changes. Hibernation, for example.


It is indeed. So complicated that it's a good idea to thoroughly educate yourself about the subject before embarking on any speculation about it.
Yes but if they are not changing, how can we say they were unfit or are naturally selected?
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Old 29th October 2017, 12:28 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Nope, natural selection still operates on them to select those traits that are most successful in their current environment. Otherwise they would change in a random manner. The most suitable traits, in their particular environment, just happen to be the ones they already have.
It looks quite logical that natural selection is needed when both unfit and fit are present and changes are needed in new generation, if normal environment has changed for them. Under same environment, if this can still happen, bit doubtful.
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Old 29th October 2017, 12:33 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
We may need to well define, what can be an environment change to any being which can change it genetically. It can be big and interesting subject.
It is a big and interesting subject. If you want to know more, I suggest you read up on it.

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Yes but if they are not changing, how can we say they were unfit or are naturally selected?
DNA analysis of related species.

And Mojo is quite right; even in a species that is remaining unchanged because it's well adapted to its current environment natural selection is still operating to select out changes that occur that aren't advantageous. It's just that that's all of them. Until the environment changes.
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Old 29th October 2017, 12:54 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It is a big and interesting subject. If you want to know more, I suggest you read up on it.


DNA analysis of related species.

And Mojo is quite right; even in a species that is remaining unchanged because it's well adapted to its current environment natural selection is still operating to select out changes that occur that aren't advantageous. It's just that that's all of them. Until the environment changes.
Yes.

If there is no change in DNA, how can we say they are just randomly selected or naturally selected?
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Old 29th October 2017, 01:07 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Yes.

If there is no change in DNA, how can we say they are just randomly selected or naturally selected?
Because the DNA doesn't change. It would if changes were randomly selected rather than only being selected if they confer an advantage.
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Old 29th October 2017, 01:13 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
If there is no change in DNA, how can we say they are just randomly selected or naturally selected?

If there is "no change in DNA" they will all be the same, so there will be no selection by trait. But there is always some sort of "change in DNA", and all individuals of a species are not identical. There will always be selection of those traits that best fit an individual to its environment, because individuals with those traits are the individuals that are able to pass their traits on to the greatest number of descendants.
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Old 29th October 2017, 02:05 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
If there is "no change in DNA" they will all be the same, so there will be no selection by trait. But there is always some sort of "change in DNA", and all individuals of a species are not identical. There will always be selection of those traits that best fit an individual to its environment, because individuals with those traits are the individuals that are able to pass their traits on to the greatest number of descendants.

It appears quite logical but contradict Pixel42 one post. However still, we can hope there can be lesser and more changes in DNA depending on environment, they previously interacted. OK?
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Old 29th October 2017, 02:06 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Because the DNA doesn't change. It would if changes were randomly selected rather than only being selected if they confer an advantage.
I feel Mojo has clarified it well. We can leave it.
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Old 29th October 2017, 02:13 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Telling a “foriegner” on an international forum that they’re hopeless at your language hardly seems to represent the ability to engage in constructive discourse (even if it’s true).
While generally true, in this particular case, we know that the whole thing is an affectation.
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Old 29th October 2017, 02:14 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It appears quite logical but contradict Pixel42 one post. However still, we can hope there can be lesser and more changes in DNA depending on environment, they previously interacted. OK?
You've got it back to front again.

Environment does not change DNA. Changes in DNA leads to mutations, which may, or may not be better suited to changes in environment.

Those that are may stand better chances of breeding, so passing on that particular DNA.

It's a very slow, very long, hit and miss process, Kumar.
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Old 29th October 2017, 02:24 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
It appears quite logical but contradict Pixel42 one post.
No, Mojo and I are saying the same thing.
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Old 29th October 2017, 02:28 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
You've got it back to front again.

Environment does not change DNA. Changes in DNA leads to mutations, which may, or may not be better suited to changes in environment.

Those that are may stand better chances of breeding, so passing on that particular DNA.

It's a very slow, very long, hit and miss process, Kumar.
Quote:
Four classes of mutations are (1) spontaneous mutations (molecular decay), (2) mutations due to error-prone replication bypass of naturally occurring DNA damage (also called error-prone translesion synthesis), (3) errors introduced during DNA repair, and (4)[b] induced mutations caused by mutagens. Scientists may also deliberately introduce mutant sequences through DNA manipulation for the sake of scientific experimentation.

One 2017 study claimed that 66% of cancer-causing mutations are random, 29% are due to the environment (the studied population spanned 69 countries), and 5% are inherited.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

In genetics, a mutagen is a physical or chemical agent that changes the genetic material, usually DNA, of an organism and thus increases the frequency of mutations above the natural background level. As many mutations can cause cancer, mutagens are therefore also likely to be carcinogens, although not always necessarily so. Some chemicals only become mutagenic through cellular processes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutagen
Bold letters above are related to environmental cause.
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Last edited by Kumar; 29th October 2017 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 29th October 2017, 02:33 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
While generally true, in this particular case, we know that the whole thing is an affectation.
Avoid speculation. Not suited to a science person.
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