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Old 28th October 2017, 07:34 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I think we have to be a bit careful with this. I'd warrant that outside of some particularly obsessive communities in the US, there would be very few christians who would actually believe that the dates they celebrate were the actual dates of the events they are supposed to be celebrating.
Yet I suspect that the average Christian will still advocate "Jesus is the reason for the season".

I was once bashed for using "pseudo science" just for providing historical references that clearly illustrate Christmas and Easter where originally pre-existing non Christian celebrations...
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Old 28th October 2017, 07:57 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That's it exactly.

I thought they were stories that grownups told to kids. Like Santa, or the Itsy Bitsy Spider or the Ugly Duckling or the tooth fairy. The other super stupid one was Jonah and the whale. These stories are a major insult to people's intelligence when they are insisted to be real.

If I understand correctly, the Catholic Church now accepts evolution. Isn't this the case? We are being told that the seven days of creation doesn't really mean seven actual days.

There are Christians who now tell us that the 'Adam and Eve' story is just allegorical. More and more it seems we are being told that much of what's in the bible isn't meant to be taking literally.

How do modern day believers reconcile this with the bible supposedly being the "infallible word of god"?

All of this sort of thing just further erodes the credibility of Christianity yet the Atheist is continuously vilified for claiming that none of it is credible...
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Old 28th October 2017, 08:13 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
If I understand correctly, the Catholic Church now accepts evolution. Isn't this the case? We are being told that the seven days of creation doesn't really mean seven actual days.

There are Christians who now tell us that the 'Adam and Eve' story is just allegorical. More and more it seems we are being told that much of what's in the bible isn't meant to be taking literally.

How do modern day believers reconcile this with the bible supposedly being the "infallible word of god"?

All of this sort of thing just further erodes the credibility of Christianity yet the Atheist is continuously vilified for claiming that none of it is credible...
Because most Christians do not believe that the entire Bible is the infallible word of God. In fact you say so right in your own post.
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Old 28th October 2017, 09:02 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Because most Christians do not believe that the entire Bible is the infallible word of God.
Does anybody here have any reference or evidence for a prominent Christian leader, pastor or evangelical who emphatically and clearly states that the Christian bible is NOT the "infallible word of god" and it is not to be considered as such?

I'm now genuinely and sincerely curious about this. I'd really like to hear it directly from the horse's mouth in no uncertain terms...
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Old 28th October 2017, 10:02 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Okay, I think I've got it now.

Believing in Zombies= Not Crazy

Believing Jesus lives next door= Nutters

Thanks for clearing that up. It might be a little awkward though when during the second coming JC actually does end up as your neighbor. I'm just guessing that he's gonna need to crash somewhere...
Realistically, as described in the babble, jebus was a permanent couch surfer. So no, he will not be your neighbour, he will be a house guest you cannot shake loose.
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Old 28th October 2017, 10:16 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Does anybody here have any reference or evidence for a prominent Christian leader, pastor or evangelical who emphatically and clearly states that the Christian bible is NOT the "infallible word of god" and it is not to be considered as such?

I'm now genuinely and sincerely curious about this. I'd really like to hear it directly from the horse's mouth in no uncertain terms...
Well, first I said the entire Bible is not the infallible word of God

Second, you just acknowledged that very fact in your previous post.
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Old 28th October 2017, 10:30 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Does anybody here have any reference or evidence for a prominent Christian leader, pastor or evangelical who emphatically and clearly states that the Christian bible is NOT the "infallible word of god" and it is not to be considered as such?
St. Augustine of Hippo?
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Old 28th October 2017, 10:37 AM   #128
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How about Pope Benedict XVI?
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Old 28th October 2017, 10:48 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, first I said the entire Bible is not the infallible word of God

Second, you just acknowledged that very fact in your previous post.
Whose word is it, then?
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Old 28th October 2017, 10:49 AM   #130
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Or what about The Archbishop Of Canterbury?

I would say that if you believe that all or even most Christians believe in Biblical literalism, then you have a very limited view of Christianity. I was actually looking for something else after I wrote that last sentence when I found this article, which has a lot relevant to say:

Quote:
[...]just 16% of believers accept the creation myth – according to which, in the words of the questionnaire, “humans and other living things were created by God and have always existed in their current form”. Only 9% of all Britons reject evolutionary theory.

[...]

According to the British Attitudes Survey, religious belief is continuing to decline in Britain, but the former archbishop of Canterbury, Lord (Rowan) Williams, says the YouGov survey confirms that a presumed incompatibility between science and religion is “a phoney war”.

“The number of mainstream Christians – certainly in this country – who have qualms about evolutionary theory is very small indeed,” said Williams. “But perceptions are different, and the presence of US-style fundamentalism in the popular imagination means that a growing number who know nothing of the actual history of intellectual discussion of these questions assume that all religious believers must be committed to combating scientific accounts of the universe’s beginnings.”

[...]

Guy Hayward, research fellow at SMN, said: “It is clear from this survey by Newman University that non-believers have very little idea about what believers believe. They seem to be responding to a caricature based on American creationists, rather than reality. Even in America, creationist beliefs in the literal truth of Genesis are not shared by most mainstream Christians. In fact, many scientists have religious or spiritual beliefs and do not see these as conflicting with science.”
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Old 28th October 2017, 11:30 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Maher says the same thing at the end of his 'Religulous' documentary. But I do not at all blame Atheists for staying in closet.

I see the vile hatred spewed against Atheists on other forums and that too is unsettling. Atheism is simply the acknowledgement of reality. To be so hated and despised just for something like that is very disconcerting...
I don't blame them. But nevertheless it is our silence that the believers are counting on. They feel they have an overwhelming majority and are free to create a coercive environment. The last thing they want is for society to say the emperor is naked. Contrary to the story, one person is not enough.
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Old 28th October 2017, 11:38 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
If I understand correctly, the Catholic Church now accepts evolution. Isn't this the case? We are being told that the seven days of creation doesn't really mean seven actual days.

There are Christians who now tell us that the 'Adam and Eve' story is just allegorical. More and more it seems we are being told that much of what's in the bible isn't meant to be taking literally.

How do modern day believers reconcile this with the bible supposedly being the "infallible word of god"?

All of this sort of thing just further erodes the credibility of Christianity yet the Atheist is continuously vilified for claiming that none of it is credible...
There's so much in this post which people living in the UK simply wouldn't recognise. Atheists aren't vilified here (we're in the majority, and religion is invisible here). I'll bet the number of biblical literalists in the entire country could be counted on the fingers and toes of my immediate family.

And nobody I have ever heard has claimed that JC was actually born on christmas day. As I said previously, I don't think there is any such equivalent claim in existence for easter, being as it is a moveable feast.
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Old 28th October 2017, 12:05 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Realistically, as described in the babble, jebus was a permanent couch surfer. So no, he will not be your neighbour, he will be a house guest you cannot shake loose.
Well I certainly wouldn't allow Him to stay with me! Do you know that that guy lives and acts like he was born in a barn???
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Old 28th October 2017, 12:17 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, first I said the entire Bible is not the infallible word of God

Second, you just acknowledged that very fact in your previous post.
What I'm looking for is prominent, notable clergy (preferably contemporaries) who will openly, publicly and clearly declare what you're telling me "most" Christians have already acknowledged. What we're being told is that we must learn to properly 'interpret' what the bible is supposedly telling us. They're saying that the Bible isn't wrong, it just means something other than what it exactly says.

IMO that explanation or rationale would be completely rejected as absolute B.S. with any other issue other than religion...
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Old 28th October 2017, 12:24 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Or what about The Archbishop Of Canterbury?

I would say that if you believe that all or even most Christians believe in Biblical literalism, then you have a very limited view of Christianity. I was actually looking for something else after I wrote that last sentence when I found this article, which has a lot relevant to say:
Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
What I'm looking for is prominent clergy (preferably contemporaries) who will openly and publicly declare what you're telling me "most" Christians have already acknowledged...
The above posts by Squeegee do just that. Heck your original post does that.
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Old 28th October 2017, 12:42 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
There's so much in this post which people living in the UK simply wouldn't recognise. Atheists aren't vilified here (we're in the majority, and religion is invisible here).
That's interesting.

On another forum the most vile, obnoxious and profanity laced replies I received for my Atheist stance came from a fella in England. Maybe I just engage with the wrong sort of people...
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Old 28th October 2017, 12:45 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The above posts by Squeegee do just that. Heck your original post does that.
I read that link. Perhaps I missed the part where the Archbishop clearly states that the Bible is WRONG...
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Old 28th October 2017, 12:48 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
What I'm looking for is prominent, notable clergy (preferably contemporaries) who will openly, publicly and clearly declare what you're telling me "most" Christians have already acknowledged. What we're being told is that we must learn to properly 'interpret' what the bible is supposedly telling us. They're saying that the Bible isn't wrong, it just means something other than what it exactly says.

IMO that explanation or rationale would be completely rejected as absolute B.S. with any other issue other than religion...
I like that the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury and St. Augustine of Hippo don't count as "prominent, notable clergy".
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Old 28th October 2017, 12:50 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
I read that link. Perhaps I missed the part where the Archbishop clearly states that the Bible is WRONG...
That's what's called "moving the goalposts". I provided you exactly what you asked for. Having done so, you are now pretending that you asked for something different.

You claim you want rationality and you look down on those whose opinions on religion you consider to be irrational, yet you ignore clear, unambiguous evidence that some of your assumptions about all Christians are wrong because you'd prefer to believe that they're true. Do you not see any hypocrisy in that?
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Old 28th October 2017, 12:52 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
I read that link. Perhaps I missed the part where the Archbishop clearly states that the Bible is WRONG...
sigh... you never made that claim before. You specifically referenced Catholic view on evolution, and that adam and eve was allegorical, and now you are pretending to ask whether this makes the Bible wrong?

Do you not understand what allegorical means?

smfh
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:01 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't blame them. But nevertheless it is our silence that the believers are counting on. They feel they have an overwhelming majority and are free to create a coercive environment. The last thing they want is for society to say the emperor is naked. Contrary to the story, one person is not enough.
See, you have to accept that in Western Europe, atheism is no biggy.

All of us are looking at the US, the purported leader of the free world, and thinking WTF? While the separation of church and state is enshrined, getting elected as anything, even a park ranger, is predicated on the requirement that one must be some flavour of christian.
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:05 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
sigh... you never made that claim before. You specifically referenced Catholic view on evolution, and that adam and eve was allegorical, and now you are pretending to ask whether this makes the Bible wrong?

Do you not understand what allegorical means?

smfh
The bible does not tell us that the 'Adam-n-Eve' story is an allegory. It's folks like the Archbishop who are telling us that that is how we are suppose to interpret it.

What we're being told is that something that means something other than what it exactly says is not the same thing as being wrong. I have a problem with that kind of rationale but I will concede that that's maybe just me...
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:06 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
That's interesting.

On another forum the most vile, obnoxious and profanity laced replies I received for my Atheist stance came from a fella in England. Maybe I just engage with the wrong sort of people...
Yebbut, no critical thinker would draw any conclusions from a sample size of 1 and personal experience, would they.
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:07 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
The bible does not tell us that the 'Adam-n-Eve' story is an allegory. It's folks like the Archbishop who are telling us that that is how we are suppose to interpret it.

What we're being told is that something that means something other than what it exactly says is not the same thing as being wrong or 'infallible'. I have a problem with that kind of rationale but I will concede that maybe that's just me...
Why wouldn't the authors of any book feel free to use any rhetorical device which helped them get their point across? Whoever wrote the bible, why would it be any different?

When you read The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe did you really think it was a story of what happened behind a wardrobe? I mean, nowhere in the book does it say it is an allegory for religion, does it. Same with The Waterbabies.
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:09 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
sigh... you never made that claim before. You specifically referenced Catholic view on evolution, and that adam and eve was allegorical, and now you are pretending to ask whether this makes the Bible wrong?
Not only does it make the bible flat out wrong, what is it an allegory for?


Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Do you not understand what allegorical means?

smfh
Because you don't know. According to the RCC Genesis is an alegory for what, exactly?
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:15 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's what's called "moving the goalposts". I provided you exactly what you asked for. Having done so, you are now pretending that you asked for something different.
I was told earlier that "most" Christians do not consider the (entire) bible to be "the infallible word of god". I'm just looking for someone in position of religious authority to make the same assertion. I just haven't seen this yet...
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:24 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
When you read The Lion The Witch and The Wardrobe did you really think it was a story of what happened behind a wardrobe? I mean, nowhere in the book does it say it is an allegory for religion, does it. Same with The Waterbabies.
Such stories were never passed off as being 'for-real'. OTOH, all the stories in the Bible were initially taught to me (and I suspect very many others) in Sunday School and Church as being literally true. The back-tracking on this has only come out piecemeal over very many years...
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:27 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
I was told earlier that "most" Christians do not consider the (entire) bible to be "the infallible word of god". I'm just looking for someone in position of religious authority to make the same assertion. I just haven't seen this yet...
I gave you three examples. That you're ignoring them doesn't mean that they don't exist.
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:29 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Such stories were never passed off as being 'for-real'. OTOH, all the stories in the Bible were initially taught to me (and I suspect very many others) in Sunday School and Church as being literally true. The back-tracking on this has only come out piecemeal over very many years...
Actually (as I'd hoped you'd know from research you'd done, considering your claim to want to understand religion, and would therefore have been reminded of by my several references to St. Augustine of Hippo), Biblical literalism is a relatively new idea, dating more or less from the Enlightenment. Throughout the majority of the history of Christianity, everybody would have understood the stories to be at least partially allegorical in nature.
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:35 PM   #150
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Let me provide one more source that should hopefully set you on the right track. If you don't know who Karen Armstrong is, she's a nun and is one of the world's most well-respected historians of Abrahamic religions. She is considered one of the highest authorities on the history of Abrahamic religions. She is respected so much that her research is taught in seminary school, despite the fact that it quite clearly shows how Judaism (followed, of course, by Christianity and Islam) grew out of pantheistic religions and how the Abrahamic conception of God is a conflation of a few different pagan gods.

This is what she has to say:

Quote:
Before the modern period, Jews, Christians and Muslims all relished highly allegorical interpretations of scripture. The word of God was infinite and could not be tied down to a single interpretation. Preoccupation with literal truth is a product of the scientific revolution, when reason achieved such spectacular results that mythology was no longer regarded as a valid path to knowledge.
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Old 28th October 2017, 01:36 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Such stories were never passed off as being 'for-real'. OTOH, all the stories in the Bible were initially taught to me (and I suspect very many others) in Sunday School and Church as being literally true. The back-tracking on this has only come out piecemeal over very many years...
You're rather changing your story again. TLTW&TW makes no claim anywhere that it is allegorical. Precisely the same as the babble. If, say, a teacher were to tell their class that it (TLTW&TW) was literally true, it wouldn't be the fault of the book if some kids grew up believing that to be the case, would it?
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Old 29th October 2017, 08:58 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Biblical literalism is a relatively new idea, dating more or less from the Enlightenment. Throughout the majority of the history of Christianity, everybody would have understood the stories to be at least partially allegorical in nature.
It would seem then the credibility of the bible (and Christianity) has been in a somewhat state of flux for the past couple of millennia. Perhaps I should wait and ask my question reference it's veracity again in 2000 years. Maybe by then they'll have it sorted out and I'll be able get a clear and definite answer without all the semantic bantering...
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Old 29th October 2017, 09:12 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
It would seem then the credibility of the bible (and Christianity) has been in a somewhat state of flux for the past couple of millennia. Perhaps I should wait and ask my question reference it's veracity again in 2000 years. Maybe by then they'll have it sorted out and I'll be able get a clear and definite answer without all the semantic bantering...
well, perhaps your time would be better spent learning about the use of rhetorical devices such as allegory and metaphor.
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Old 29th October 2017, 09:15 AM   #154
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It's a rare old conversation where TBD and I find ourselves on the same side. That's a particularly neat trick, Autolite.
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Old 29th October 2017, 11:31 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
It would seem then the credibility of the bible (and Christianity) has been in a somewhat state of flux for the past couple of millennia. Perhaps I should wait and ask my question reference it's veracity again in 2000 years. Maybe by then they'll have it sorted out and I'll be able get a clear and definite answer without all the semantic bantering...
Again, nothing you're posting reads like you're at all interested in learning, as you claim, or even of forming an honest opinion on this subject. They read like you want to feel superior to people, and betray an incredibly shallow and ill-informed understanding of what you're talking about.

You have the means and ability to educate yourself about this, should you so choose. You choose not to.
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Old 29th October 2017, 11:39 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Again, nothing you're posting reads like you're at all interested in learning, as you claim, or even of forming an honest opinion on this subject. They read like you want to feel superior to people, and betray an incredibly shallow and ill-informed understanding of what you're talking about.

You have the means and ability to educate yourself about this, should you so choose. You choose not to.
I thought the thread was missing he "humbling" part of the equation.

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Old 29th October 2017, 03:43 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well, perhaps your time would be better spent learning about the use of rhetorical devices such as allegory and metaphor.
Well all the replies, comments and links pretty much tells me all that I need to know. Or rather it just further underscores and confirms what I already knew.

The Christian Bible is a book of made-up fictitious stories, myths and fairy tales. It's all just pure unadulterated B.S.

And nobody in a position of religious authority has the balls to call it exactly what it is. No surprise at all really.

That's my "shallow and ill-informed" conclusion anyway...
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Old 29th October 2017, 04:05 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Well all the replies, comments and links pretty much tells me all that I need to know. Or rather it just further underscores and confirms what I already knew.

The Christian Bible is a book of made-up fictitious stories, myths and fairy tales. It's all just pure unadulterated B.S.

And nobody in a position of religious authority has the balls to call it exactly what it is. No surprise at all really...
Ah, you don't know what allegory and metaphor means. Rather you want to apply a strictly literalness to the Bible that is not accepted by the overwhelming majority of Christians, ignore links that directly explain it in extraordinary detail, and declare that you were right all along.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.
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Old 30th October 2017, 11:51 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ah, you don't know what allegory and metaphor means. Rather you want to apply a strictly literalness to the Bible that is not accepted by the overwhelming majority of Christians, ignore links that directly explain it in extraordinary detail, and declare that you were right all along.

It's fine, we get it. "An Arrogant journey: Theism to Antitheism" might be a better title for the thread, no?
Not sure what the hell you're talking about TBD. Seems as if he understands it just fine.


allegory
ˈaləˌɡrē/Submit
noun
a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.
"Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory of the spiritual journey"
synonyms: parable, analogy, metaphor, symbol, emblem

metaphor
ˈmedəˌfr,ˈmedəˌfər/Submit
noun
noun: metaphor; plural noun: metaphors
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
"I had fallen through a trapdoor of depression, said Mark, who was fond of theatrical metaphors"
synonyms: figure of speech, image, trope, analogy, comparison, symbol, word painting/picture
"the profusion of metaphors in her everyday speech has gotten pretty tiresome"
a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.
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Old 30th October 2017, 11:53 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
I read that link. Perhaps I missed the part where the Archbishop clearly states that the Bible is WRONG...
Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Well all the replies, comments and links pretty much tells me all that I need to know. Or rather it just further underscores and confirms what I already knew.

The Christian Bible is a book of made-up fictitious stories, myths and fairy tales. It's all just pure unadulterated B.S.

And nobody in a position of religious authority has the balls to call it exactly what it is. No surprise at all really.

That's my "shallow and ill-informed" conclusion anyway...
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Not sure what the hell you're talking about TBD. Seems as if he understands it just fine.
I was talking about the above posts, thanks.
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