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Old 30th October 2017, 12:12 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I was talking about the above posts, thanks.
I don't think he's far off TBD. Do we believe in a virgin birth or a physical resurrection? How about transubstantiation? Hey, I think there are some good philosophical lessons in the bible about forgiving others and ourselves. About how we are more capable than we realize . I like to think philosophically, I'm a Christian, but there is a lot of bs in the bible.
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Old 30th October 2017, 12:23 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't think he's far off TBD. Do we believe in a virgin birth or a physical resurrection? How about transubstantiation? Hey, I think there are some good philosophical lessons in the bible about forgiving others and ourselves. About how we are more capable than we realize . I like to think philosophically, I'm a Christian, but there is a lot of bs in the bible.
Well that is fine, however, in this case he was specifically referred to statements that parts of the Bible are allegorical and metaphorical.

If he wanted to simply declare his "humble" belief that everything is WRONG he should have done that in the first place rather than mislead people who thought his questions were asked in good faith.
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Old 30th October 2017, 02:56 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Not really. None of the claims have any evidence. And the Noah story is particularly moronic. They couldn't convince me that was true in Sunday School when I was 6. The resurrection story is more plausible in that people thought to be dead have woken up. That the world was created in 7 days and that Jesus was Son of God/God/Holy Ghost is ridiculous. But people go with it to be culturally acceptable. Believing your neighbor is JC is ridiculous as well, but isn't socially acceptable.
I understand and agree, however the DSM make an exception for certain commonly held beliefs in a social group being a possible exception to being a delusion.
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Old 30th October 2017, 02:58 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Okay, I think I've got it now.

Believing in Zombies= Not Crazy

Believing Jesus lives next door= Nutters

Thanks for clearing that up. It might be a little awkward though when during the second coming JC actually does end up as your neighbor. I'm just guessing that he's gonna need to crash somewhere...
In some social settings believing and therefor possibly not a delusion. in zombies may be commonly held.

I did work with a woman who thought her picture of Jesus talked to her...
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Old 30th October 2017, 06:58 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
I understand and agree, however the DSM make an exception for certain commonly held beliefs in a social group being a possible exception to being a delusion.
DSM?
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Old 31st October 2017, 03:43 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
DSM?
https://www.amazon.ca/Desk-Reference...desk+reference


It's like a quick reference shop manual for nut cases. I'm waiting for the illustrated edition...
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Old 31st October 2017, 04:58 AM   #167
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"Nut cases"? Mental health issues something else you're humbly trying to learn about and understand rather than thoughtlessly and ignorantly mock?
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Old 31st October 2017, 05:29 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well that is fine, however, in this case he was specifically referred to statements that parts of the Bible are allegorical and metaphorical.

If he wanted to simply declare his "humble" belief that everything is WRONG he should have done that in the first place rather than mislead people who thought his questions were asked in good faith.
But surely TBD, there are many churches in the USA (and round the world to be fair) that do believe and state explicitly that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, not a book containing allegory and metaphor. Every word is to be taken literally. Your particular branch of the faith may not believe that but it is common enough to be a valid judgement on Christianity, for some values of Christian.
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Old 31st October 2017, 08:33 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
But surely TBD, there are many churches in the USA (and round the world to be fair) that do believe and state explicitly that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, not a book containing allegory and metaphor. Every word is to be taken literally. Your particular branch of the faith may not believe that but it is common enough to be a valid judgement on Christianity, for some values of Christian.
The gist of this part of the thread seems to be that the bible is indeed considered by the majority of believers to be a book of allegories and metaphors. And I have read a few links on this issue that underscores this. In the monologue "Letting Go of God", Julia Sweeney tells how her priest describes to her the 'Adam-n-Eve' story as being "myth-ish".

There are books of fairy tales and those by 'Dr. Seuss' that are complete fabrications of fiction (some with good moral lessons) that AFAIK have never been passed off as anything other than what they are.

However, this has not been the case with the Christian bible. Ken Ham, founder of the 'Creation Museum' in Petersburg Kentucky, openly promotes the literal interpretation of the bible. He even wants to people to think that man and dinosaurs co-existed. I have read posts on other forums where there were Theists who actually believe this to be the case referencing the Paluxy River Footprints as 'proof'. I was severely bashed just for pointing out that this was widely accepted as a hoax.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paluxy_River

The fact that the bible is considered by any supposedly mentally healthy individual as being literally true is for me very disconcerting. If the bible is a fictional fabrication of myths and legends then the overwhelming vast majority of those in religious authority should emphatically, unanimously and loudly declare that to be so. IMO, just silently allowing people to believe otherwise isn't right...
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:22 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You've been dismissive of what's been said to you. You've ignored evidence that didn't demonstrate what you wanted it to demonstrate until enough people kept reminding you that it existed that you were forced to accept that it existed.
The people you've referenced are lame in comparison to people like Dan Barker. Mr. Barker was an Evangelical minister who figured out that all religion and the bible was pure B.S. And he's now an Atheist who makes a serious effort trying to spread the truth.

There's also the 'Clergy Project'. It's a support site for clergymen, ministers and pastors who have turned to Atheism.

The fact that some of these 'Atheist' preachers are still spreading the holy gospel (according to Barker) should tell you that there is something seriously wrong going on...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clergy_Project
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:27 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
The people you've referenced are lame in comparison to people like Dan Barker.
You consider the Pope less of a religious authority figure than Dan Barker?
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:31 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
.......There's also the 'Clergy Project'. It's a support site for clergymen, ministers and pastors who have turned to Atheism.

The fact that some of these 'Atheist' preachers are still spreading the holy gospel (according to Barker) should tell you that there is something seriously wrong going on...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clergy_Project
You've not been here long, have you.
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:36 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You consider the Pope less of a religious authority figure than Dan Barker?
Well the Pope (one of them anyway) was eventually forced to acknowledge evolution. The RCC was losing people and they knew that they had to bend in order to stop losing folks who could no longer buy into ridiculous biblical B.S.

It was a self serving compromise. Barker OTOH just decided to come totally clean and he was/is very overt about it. I have more respect for Barker than the RCC or any Pope...
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Old 31st October 2017, 11:51 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Well the Pope (one of them anyway) was eventually forced to acknowledge evolution. The RCC was losing people and they knew that they had to bend in order to stop losing folks who could no longer buy into ridiculous biblical B.S.
It is rare that you see such blatantly made up claims.... wow.
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Old 31st October 2017, 12:03 PM   #175
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Mod WarningA number of off topic posts have been sent to AAH. Please keep to the topic of the thread, which is not, as ever, each other.
Posted By:zooterkin
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Old 31st October 2017, 12:11 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Well the Pope (one of them anyway) was eventually forced to acknowledge evolution. The RCC was losing people and they knew that they had to bend in order to stop losing folks who could no longer buy into ridiculous biblical B.S.
Can you provide a citation for this assertion, please?
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Old 31st October 2017, 01:52 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Can you provide a citation for this assertion, please?
It's what I was told by a seemingly very devote Catholic on another forum quite some time ago. It turns out that acknowledging evolution is apparently optional in the RCC.

Quote:
"The Catholic Church holds no official position on the theory of creation or evolution, leaving the specifics of either theistic evolution or literal creationism to the individual within certain parameters established by the Church. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, any believer may accept either literal or special creation within the period of an actual six-day, twenty-four-hour period, or they may accept the belief that the earth evolved over time under the guidance of God. Catholicism holds that God initiated and continued the process of his evolutionary creation, that Adam and Eve were real people, and affirms that all humans, whether specially created or evolved, have and have always had specially created souls for each individual.[3][4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolut...atholic_Church


If that isn't considered a cop-out intended for mass appeal then I have absolutely no idea what else would be...
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Old 31st October 2017, 02:20 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
It's what I was told by a seemingly very devote Catholic on another forum quite some time ago. It turns out that acknowledging evolution is apparently optional in the RCC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolut...atholic_Church

If that isn't considered a cop-out intended for mass appeal then I have absolutely no idea what else would be...
Ah, no support for the claim "The RCC was losing people and they knew that they had to bend in order to stop losing folks"

And considering that Humani generis was released in 1950 when the Church was growing, it would appear that the claim is as far fetched as the source (some guy on some other forum quite some time ago)
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Old 31st October 2017, 02:44 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ah, no support for the claim "The RCC was losing people and they knew that they had to bend in order to stop losing folks"

And considering that Humani generis was released in 1950 when the Church was growing, it would appear that the claim is as far fetched as the source (some guy on some other forum quite some time ago)
The RCC it seems has made belief in evolution or creation optional. It's the Theists again playing the both sides of the fence. AFAIK, nowhere in the Bible does it mention any sort of evolution. An evolution longer than six days anyway.

If this type of equivocation wasn't intended for mass appeal then what else would be the reason for it???

(And your point is valid. I should never really trust anything any individual Catholic might have to say about religion.)
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Old 31st October 2017, 02:54 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
The RCC it seems has made belief in evolution or creation optional. It's the Theists again playing the both sides of the fence. AFAIK, nowhere in the Bible does it mention any sort of evolution. An evolution longer than six days anyway.

If this type of equivocation wasn't intended for mass appeal then what else would be the reason for it???
arguments from incredulity ROCK!.

Yes, the catholic Church does not mandate a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible as has been explained in detail in this thread.
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Old 31st October 2017, 02:54 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
It's what I was told by a seemingly very devote Catholic on another forum quite some time ago. It turns out that acknowledging evolution is apparently optional in the RCC.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolut...atholic_Church


If that isn't considered a cop-out intended for mass appeal then I have absolutely no idea what else would be...
What I asked for was a citation to back up the statement that you made, not a different statement entirely.

And I have to question why you believe "a seemingly very devote Catholic on another forum quite some time ago" to be a reliable enough source on Catholic doctrine to repeat what they said without verification, yet don't consider the Pope to be a reliable source on Catholic doctrine. As far as I can see it's because the random internet stranger about whom you know so little that you don't even know how devout they actually were said something that you'd like to believe is true while the Pope said something you'd like not to believe is true.
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Old 31st October 2017, 03:01 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You consider the Pope less of a religious authority figure than Dan Barker?
In all fairness, I consider the pope as no authority on anything. Not even religious matters. Even hard catholics are rejecting the current pope, and the last one. What authority is that?
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Old 31st October 2017, 03:55 PM   #183
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Since Catholic doctrine is whatever the Pope declares it to be, I'd say that few could be a bigger authority on the subject than him.
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Old 31st October 2017, 04:01 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
It's what I was told by a seemingly very devote Catholic on another forum quite some time ago......
You need to do a bit better than that around here.
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Old 31st October 2017, 05:13 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Since Catholic doctrine is whatever the Pope declares it to be, I'd say that few could be a bigger authority on the subject than him.
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You need to do a bit better than that around here.
If we assume the wiki link to be accurate, we have the RCC saying "We're okay with you believing in evolution if you concede that 'God-did-it' but we're also saying that Adam-n-Eve were for real".

This is an acceptable stance for y'all? Am I the only one here seeing some slightly conflicting statements.

So I ask again, if not to foster wider public appeal, why would the RCC take such a non-committal position???
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Old 31st October 2017, 05:27 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
If we assume the wiki link to be accurate, we have the RCC saying "We're okay with you believing in evolution if you concede that 'God-did-it' but we're also saying that Adam-n-Eve were for real".

This is an acceptable stance for y'all? Am I the only one here seeing some slightly conflicting statements.

So I ask again, if not to foster wider public appeal, why would the RCC take such a non-committal position???
well considering your research appears to be some guy and the introduction to a wikipedia article I'd suggest maybe doing some more research?
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Old 31st October 2017, 05:27 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
........This is an acceptable stance for y'all?..........
Why do you do this ******? You're talking to a whole bunch of atheists, and one christian. Don't quote me and then expect me to comment on whether Catholic doctrine is OK with me. As far as I am concerned it is all nonsense, along with all other religious doctrine. What isn't OK with me, though, are unsubstantiated claims and overblown statements, even if you are arguing for a case that I would generally support. If you could avoid those, you'll have a whole lot of us who are currently pulling you up on everything swinging around behind you in support. Or at least, you might have done if you hadn't already muddied the waters so thoroughly.
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Old 31st October 2017, 05:40 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
If we assume the wiki link to be accurate, we have the RCC saying "We're okay with you believing in evolution if you concede that 'God-did-it' but we're also saying that Adam-n-Eve were for real".

This is an acceptable stance for y'all? Am I the only one here seeing some slightly conflicting statements.

So I ask again, if not to foster wider public appeal, why would the RCC take such a non-committal position???
You're changing the subject again. I'd prefer it, when you quote my posts, if you replied to the contents of those posts.
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Old 31st October 2017, 05:54 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
If we assume the wiki link to be accurate, we have the RCC saying "We're okay with you believing in evolution if you concede that 'God-did-it' but we're also saying that Adam-n-Eve were for real".

This is an acceptable stance for y'all? Am I the only one here seeing some slightly conflicting statements.

So I ask again, if not to foster wider public appeal, why would the RCC take such a non-committal position???
You've convinced me........ to become a theist.
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Old 31st October 2017, 05:57 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well considering your research appears to be some guy and the introduction to a wikipedia article I'd suggest maybe doing some more research?
The wiki article seems to be a genuine enough explanation for me. Do you dispute it? I will accept it unless The Pontiff 'Twitters' something to the contrary...
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Old 31st October 2017, 06:00 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
The wiki article seems to be a genuine enough explanation for me. Do you dispute it? I will accept it unless The Pontiff 'Twitters' something to the contrary...
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Old 31st October 2017, 06:12 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
If we assume the wiki link to be accurate, we have the RCC saying "We're okay with you believing in evolution if you concede that 'God-did-it' but we're also saying that Adam-n-Eve were for real".

This is an acceptable stance for y'all? Am I the only one here seeing some slightly conflicting statements.
The RCC's position isn't that "Adam and Eve were real as according to Genesis" (if that's what you meant), but that there was an 'original sin' event by someone who was the first human, even if that was millions of years ago. This also allows that the first human evolved from an earlier form.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...m/p1s2c1p7.htm
The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.
It was known from the early 19th C that the earth was much older than 6000 years. A common figure of that time was that the earth was around 20 million years old. Young earth Fundamentalism is a modern phenomenon. The Fundamentalists broke away from the mainstream churches, rather than the other way around.

Christians helped to develop the Theory of Evolution. From the link you yourself gave earlier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolut...atholic_Church
Catholics' contributions to the development of evolutionary theory included those of the Jesuit-educated French scientist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (1744-1829) and of the Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel (1822-1884). Lamarck developed Lamarckism, the first coherent theory of evolution, proposing in Philosophie Zoologique (1809) and other works his theory of the transmutation of species. He constructed a genealogical tree to show the genetic connection of organisms...
On the Protestant side, there was Asa Gray: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Gray
Gray and Joseph Dalton Hooker went to visit Richard Owen at London's Hunterian Museum in January 1839.[113] Gray met Charles Darwin during lunch that day at Kew Gardens, apparently introduced by Hooker. Darwin found a kindred spirit in Gray, as they both had an empirical approach to science, and first wrote to him in April 1855.[114] During 1855–1881 they exchanged about 300 letters...

Darwin published On the Origin of Species on November 24, 1859.[125] The first printing was 1,250 copies, with some having been sent to America via ship; one of those was for Gray. Gray's copy arrived just before Christmas, and he read it between Christmas and New Year's.[126] Since there was no international copyright law at the time, Gray worked to protect the book from publishing piracy. According to American law at the time, a copyright could only be secured by an American edition being published by an American citizen, and royalties were not required to be paid to the author.[127] Gray arranged the first American edition of On the Origin of Species and was able to negotiate royalties on Darwin's behalf...

Darwin had Gray in mind when he wrote, "It seems to me absurd to doubt that a man may be an ardent theist & an evolutionist."
It's a betrayal of the hard work done by our ancestors to misrepresent, either deliberately or not, the history of that work, regardless of whether they are atheists or theists.

Last edited by GDon; 31st October 2017 at 06:30 PM.
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