Sexual assault or "attempt at humor"? former president accused of groping actress

Puppycow

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Sexual assault or "attempt at humor"? former president accused of groping actress

Report: George H.W. Bush apologizes after 'sexual assault' allegation

This "apology" is a classic non-apology apology. His spokesperson essentially said the former president is sorry that you don't share his sense of humor.

Lind wrote on Instagram Tuesday that Bush touched her “from behind from his wheelchair with his wife Barbara Bush by his side,” told her a “dirty joke,” and then touched her again.

Lind claimed that Barbara Bush “rolled her eyes” at Bush, “as if to say ‘not again.’”
. . .

A representative for Bush, now 93, admitted that the former president might have erred in his “attempt at humor,” the Daily Mail reported.

“President Bush would never — under any circumstance — intentionally cause anyone distress, and he most sincerely apologizes if his attempt at humor offended Ms. Lind," Bush's statement said, the Daily Mail reported.
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Maybe she overreacted? I don't know. I keep my hands to myself to be on the safe side.

Here is another story because that one is rather brief:
http://hollywoodlife.com/2017/10/24/who-is-heather-lind-george-hw-bush-accuser-sexual-assault/
 
Sounds like he's indulging in "dirty old man" behavior, which used to be considered (at least by men) harmless and funny. It's not, it never really was (certainly not to women), and if he's still got his wits about him then he should know better.

I wouldn't be surprised if Barbara chewed him out over it later.
 
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Is Fox News attempting to smear the Bush family for daring to speak out against President Trump ?
 
The Don said:
Is Fox News attempting to smear the Bush family for daring to speak out against President Trump ?
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No, there are many other news sources, and it came originally from her Instagram account. I think The Daily Mail was one of the first to report it, as Fox News refers to their report.
 
Seems a pretty basic false dichotomy, why can't it be sexual assault and an attempt at humor?
 
I think we need a new phrase to describe unwanted touching, such that we can use a word that makes it clear that it's unacceptable, but not use the same word we use for rape.


I must admit I'm really disappointed in GHWB. I always liked him, and thought of him as a decent man, whether or not I agreed with him on policy issues. This diminishes him in my eyes. I don't know whether I would like to think that I misjudged him, and he's been a creepy guy for a long time, and just kept it hidden, or that he is obviously becoming senile.
 
Puppycow said:
Apparently a lot of people are hating on her on Instagram. She deleted the post.
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Not surprising. The members of the He-Man Woman-Hater's Club have been taking a beating the last couple weeks, and this probably seems to them a perfect place to jump in and defend "harmless fun," telling people to "loosen up." Heck, the jokes have already started here. We should have someone come along any minute to fly the "no big deal" flag, perhaps with a dash of "but Clinton" to add a little partisan spice.
 
Meadmaker said:
I think we need a new phrase to describe unwanted touching, such that we can use a word that makes it clear that it's unacceptable, but not use the same word we use for rape.
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The problem there is that assault is the proper legal term, it is just very broad. Any laying of hands on someone with out their consent is assault.
 
It is not unusual for ageing folks (not just men) to lose to some degree control of their impulses (sexual or other). I know one demented man in full care whose entire life now revolves around looking at, thinking of, talking about and attemping to touch female breasts. All the female nurses tasked to work with him are instructed to understand and provided with advice on how to deal (and they are given a the opportunity to opt out). I know an elderly woman who is otherwise mentally fit and socially ept, but she can't control her desire for sugary drinks and she much likes to expose herself in front of male nurses. It can be a difficult line to draw between guilt aspects of poor character and symptoms of an age-related health condition: are they revealing their true, formerly suppresed self, or developing new disorders?
 
Oystein said:
It is not unusual for ageing folks (not just men) to lose to some degree control of their impulses (sexual or other). I know one demented man in full care whose entire life now revolves around looking at, thinking of, talking about and attemping to touch female breasts. All the female nurses tasked to work with him are instructed to understand and provided with advice on how to deal (and they are given a the opportunity to opt out). I know an elderly woman who is otherwise mentally fit and socially ept, but she can't control her desire for sugary drinks and she much likes to expose herself in front of male nurses. It can be a difficult line to draw between guilt aspects of poor character and symptoms of an age-related health condition: are they revealing their true, formerly suppresed self, or developing new disorders?
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Hey, make the claim that GHWB has a mental disorder and we can deal with that.

But, as noted, the actual justification has basically come down to the standard "dirty old man" crap. And I see no problem with having that lexicon become a thing of the past.

He may think it's funny. But I don't hear her laughing. She didn't like it. And she doesn't have to like it or think it is funny, just because he is old.

I mean, we tell our kids this same thing all the time. Is it really funny? Do you think the person on the receiving end thought it was funny?

No reason we can't hold old people to those same standards.
 
I'm not sure I understand the story here. He "touched her from behind", does that mean he grabbed her ass? Touched her back? Upper back? Lower back? Shoulder? Just touching someone isn't sexual assault. Neither is telling a dirty joke. Am I missing something here? I frankly wouldn't be surprised if H.W. had sexually assaulted someone at some point in his life, but these two reports of the incident are way to vague for me to determine if this is actually an example of that. Maybe I could tell if I could see the picture of the event, but apparently she took down her Instagram post.
 
Fizil said:
I'm not sure I understand the story here. He "touched her from behind", does that mean he grabbed her ass? Touched her back? Upper back? Lower back? Shoulder? Just touching someone isn't sexual assault. Neither is telling a dirty joke. Am I missing something here? .
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Yeah, he came up behind her and grabbed her butt, and added in a crude comment of some sort.

No one would be complaining if he put his hand on her back. And they wouldn't be defending it as "an attempt at humor," acknowledging that whatever he did, it wasn't appropriate.

It's easy to understand what happened here, despite the euphemistic language.
 
What we've learned in the past year.

Ex-president Bush grabbing ass is bad.

An ass grabbing bush gets elected president.
 
pgwenthold said:
Yeah, he came up behind her and grabbed her butt, and added in a crude comment of some sort.

No one would be complaining if he put his hand on her back. And they wouldn't be defending it as "an attempt at humor," acknowledging that whatever he did, it wasn't appropriate.

It's easy to understand what happened here, despite the euphemistic language.
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Where is this claimed? I saw it it none of the linked articles, or the links within them.

Pinching a butt is sexual assault - hmm I agree we need some different terms. I'm having a difficult time with a 93 year old man sexually assaulting anyone.

No one would be complaining if he put his hand on her back.
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Ya sure. That's what one of the jurors said in a trial I was a witness in. "The plaintiff is telling the truth because I can't believe she'd lie" The lawyer deliberately selected her as a juror anyways.

She was wrong, the plaintiff lied.
 
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Meadmaker said:
I think we need a new phrase to describe unwanted touching, such that we can use a word that makes it clear that it's unacceptable, but not use the same word we use for rape.


I must admit I'm really disappointed in GHWB. I always liked him, and thought of him as a decent man, whether or not I agreed with him on policy issues. This diminishes him in my eyes. I don't know whether I would like to think that I misjudged him, and he's been a creepy guy for a long time, and just kept it hidden, or that he is obviously becoming senile.
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I feel much the same. I thought he had way more class than that. Though I don't wish dementia on anyone, I kind of hope that his behavior is attributable to that. I suspect his "apology" came from a PR person. If so the PR person is doing a lousy job.
 
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CORed said:
I feel much the same. I though he had way more class than that. Though I don't wish dementia on anyone, I kind of hope that his behavior is attributable to that. I suspect his "apology" came from a PR person. If so the PR person is doing a lousy job.
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If they really wanted to apologize, the person to do it - if H-Dub himself can't - would be Barbara. If she came out and told the truth, whatever that may be, I suspect everyone would become a lot more forgiving. She's always seemed likeable and could probably charm people with some straight talk given her status as a former First Lady to a Republican president and her support of women's issues (including the ERA and abortion rights) over the years.
 
Babbylonian said:
If they really wanted to apologize, the person to do it - if H-Dub himself can't - would be Barbara. If she came out and told the truth, whatever that may be, I suspect everyone would become a lot more forgiving.
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If they really wanted to apologize, they would apologize directly to the offended party. Which they have probably already done. Neither George nor Barbara owes anyone else an apology. It's quite frankly none of our business.
 
theprestige said:
If they really wanted to apologize, they would apologize directly to the offended party. Which they have probably already done. Neither George nor Barbara owes anyone else an apology. It's quite frankly none of our business.
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Public figures do have some responsibility to the public, and figures hardly get more public than [former] presidents. And, no, nobody but the victim is owed an apology, but a public apology to her would probably keep her from being tormented as much by Internet jerkfaces.
 
theprestige said:
I question the premise that internet jerkfaces are even on Barbara Bush's radar. Let alone 'tormenting' her.
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Try reading my post again, and you'll discover that the "her" to which I was referring there was not Barbara Bush.
 
pgwenthold said:
Hey, make the claim that GHWB has a mental disorder and we can deal with that.

But, as noted, the actual justification has basically come down to the standard "dirty old man" crap. And I see no problem with having that lexicon become a thing of the past.

He may think it's funny. But I don't hear her laughing. She didn't like it. And she doesn't have to like it or think it is funny, just because he is old.

I mean, we tell our kids this same thing all the time. Is it really funny? Do you think the person on the receiving end thought it was funny?

No reason we can't hold old people to those same standards.
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I can't claim he is slipping into dementia as I have almost no evidence either way, but at 93 years of age, it's a plausible thing to consider. I read the other day (in connection with the five ex presidents meeting) that he no longer speaks in public, even when he appears. I don't know the reason, but speculate it may have to do with slipping mental capacity.

The official release with the old men's humor excuse needs not be an honest rendering of what's going on in GHWB's mind. Perhaps the family wishes to conceal from the public that he is slipping into dementia?

I say it's a thing to consider.
 
Probably because the first "apology" was a bit too glib, the spokesman has released an additional explanation:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/25/entertainment/heather-lind-george-bush-harassment/index.html

McGrath issued a second statement later Wednesday to provide context.
"At age 93, President Bush has been confined to a wheelchair for roughly five years, so his arm falls on the lower waist of people with whom he takes pictures," McGrath said. "To try to put people at ease, the president routinely tells the same joke — and on occasion, he has patted women's rears in what he intended to be a good-natured manner. Some have seen it as innocent; others clearly view it as inappropriate. To anyone he has offended, President Bush apologizes most sincerely."
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The article includes a photo of the event in question. She is standing next to him, his arm apparently behind her.

Only women, I take it, are subjected to the "good-natured" rear-patting.
 
Oystein said:
I can't claim he is slipping into dementia as I have almost no evidence either way, but at 93 years of age, it's a plausible thing to consider. I read the other day (in connection with the five ex presidents meeting) that he no longer speaks in public, even when he appears. I don't know the reason, but speculate it may have to do with slipping mental capacity.

The official release with the old men's humor excuse needs not be an honest rendering of what's going on in GHWB's mind. Perhaps the family wishes to conceal from the public that he is slipping into dementia?

I say it's a thing to consider.
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According to the second press announcement, Mr. Bush "routinely tells the same joke"......

I'm pretty sure he's slipping into dementia. That's how it began with my father in law. That's a sign that it's coming. They tell the same story, or joke, or saying, as if you haven't heard it before. I suspect that the spokesman was even trying to send that hint.

Oh well. He's 93. It's fairly normal, sad to say.
 
Babbylonian said:
Sounds like he's indulging in "dirty old man" behavior, which used to be considered (at least by men) harmless and funny. It's not, it never really was (certainly not to women), and if he's still got his wits about him then he should know better.

I wouldn't be surprised if Barbara chewed him out over it later.
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Or chewed it off so it would NOT happen again!!!:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp
 
Meadmaker said:
According to the second press announcement, Mr. Bush "routinely tells the same joke"......

I'm pretty sure he's slipping into dementia. That's how it began with my father in law. That's a sign that it's coming. They tell the same story, or joke, or saying, as if you haven't heard it before. I suspect that the spokesman was even trying to send that hint.

Oh well. He's 93. It's fairly normal, sad to say.
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Yeah, and I think the point that people are trying to get across is that, it may be normal, but that doesn't and shouldn't mean it is acceptable.

It could be some dementia, but you certainly don't need dementia to explain "dirty old man" behavior. And if it is an issue of dementia, then handlers need to be responsible for preventing it. If it's just dirty old man crap, then it needs to be called out for what it is.
 
Babbylonian said:
Sounds like he's indulging in "dirty old man" behavior, which used to be considered (at least by men) harmless and funny. It's not, it never really was (certainly not to women), and if he's still got his wits about him then he should know better.

I wouldn't be surprised if Barbara chewed him out over it later.
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Not appropriate. On the other hand, I'm a little buggered that the real abuse problems that many women suffer in this world is clouded and devaluated by free, resourceful women over small transgressions that could have been immediately cleared by a slap on the wrist (possible verbally).

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
Not appropriate. On the other hand, I'm a little buggered that the real abuse problems that many women suffer in this world is clouded and devaluated by free, resourceful women over small transgressions that could have been immediately cleared by a slap on the wrist (possible verbally).

Hans
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Aw, poor you. Yeah, every problem is not equivalent in severity. It doesn't mean that minor infractions shouldn't be discussed. If there are people who can't take rape as seriously because they're distracted by something else, that's not something for which anyone but the squirrels themselves should feel responsible.

Maybe if men could keep their *********** hands to themselves all the time, there would be fewer incidents of escalation.
 
Babbylonian said:
Aw, poor you. Yeah, every problem is not equivalent in severity. It doesn't mean that minor infractions shouldn't be discussed. If there are people who can't take rape as seriously because they're distracted by something else, that's not something for which anyone but the squirrels themselves should feel responsible.

Maybe if men could keep their *********** hands to themselves all the time, there would be fewer incidents of escalation.
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Yep. So compare press coverage of women abuse in the third world with what stuff like this gets. Proportional?

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
Yep. So compare press coverage of women abuse in the third world with what stuff like this gets. Proportional?

Hans
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It's unfortunate that we don't pay enough attention to third world atrocities, but that has ****-all to do with anything but that humans care more about things that directly affect them and the people they care about than about things that happen to people living in countries that they'll never visit. Unless a war is involved, most people are fine being oblivious to the rest of the world...not that actual change would result if they weren't.
 
Argumemnon said:
Oh, I don't know about that. Not at this point anymore.
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It's to the point where if a man compliments a woman, mis-reads her intentions, or whatever, then it's called harassment. Hell, a man can be called a rapist all because she changed her mind after the fact or because she didn't announce at every stage that yes she is alright with what is going on. So what if she was actively and enthusiastically participating?

I read an article about sexual assault that I mostly agreed with until the end. It said something like, "If a woman wants to have sex with you, she will tell you." So she is allowed to approach a man for sex but not vise versa? What happened to equal rights?
 
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Puppycow said:
Report: George H.W. Bush apologizes after 'sexual assault' allegation

This "apology" is a classic non-apology apology. His spokesperson essentially said the former president is sorry that you don't share his sense of humor.



Maybe she overreacted? I don't know. I keep my hands to myself to be on the safe side.
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I have no trouble believing that this was some sort of mixup. The man is, like, two hundred years old. Also, he's in a wheelchair. If he puts his arm around someone, he's going to be grabbing their ass.

Bush Sr. was reportedly not completely faithful to his wife. But grabbing some young actress in a picture? No way.
 
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