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Old 8th November 2017, 09:57 AM   #281
John Jones
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Well I'll say this, you have the bully lesson down pat. If you aren't going to contribute to the original question that I asked about then it should be self evident. Put up or shut up John.
I did contribute: I asked for evidence of any "wormhole technology" you postulated. You provided crackpot conspiracy theories. I'm contributing again: Evidence of wormhole technology, please. Now YOU put up or shut up, Jodie.
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:00 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
Can you cite an example of someone working on wormhole technology?
Sure:

https://www.livescience.com/51925-ma...e-created.html
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:01 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I did contribute: I asked for evidence of any "wormhole technology" you postulated. You provided crackpot conspiracy theories. I'm contributing again: Evidence of wormhole technology, please. Now YOU put up or shut up, Jodie.
You didn't ask nicely.
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:09 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Did you read the article? What they did is not even remotely the wormhole technology your alluding to.

All they did was use destructive interference to cancel out parts of a magnetic field. The result is a magenetic field that is observable over part of its volume, but invisible over other parts of its volume. The effect is poetically similar to the "wormhole" of science fiction, since the field appears to disappear and reappear some distance away without crossing the intervening space. But in fact it does cross the intervening space, in the normal way of all matter and fields.

So in fact it bears no physical or mathematical relationship to the kind of wormhole you're talking about. It is certainly not an example of "someone working on wormhole technology".

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Old 8th November 2017, 10:37 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Did you read it? Not a wormhole.
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:50 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by drelda View Post
And maybe in the end we will find a way to reverse the increase of entropy.
And The A.C. said...
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Old 8th November 2017, 11:21 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
When you do care to track it down, which would be a lovely thing to do, you will find this
But most intriguingly of all, the agency says it will support research ‘to demonstrate microscopic instances of space warp or wormholes.’
If you can find a report of NASA intending to "fund wormhole propulsion" - a very different thing - please link to your source.
The NASA page on this is telling...

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/m...998_76634.html

Quote:
National Aeronautics and Space Administrations
Disclaimer: This material is being kept online for historical purposes. Though accurate at the time of publication, it is no longer being updated. The page may contain broken links or outdated information, and parts may not function in current web browsers. Visit NASA.gov for current information

Make of that what you will....

AFAICT, NASA is not pursuing any research on wormhole propulsion, so this statement from Jodie...

Quote:
Other countries are working on it, and NASA too,
....is just wrong.

The only thing that NASA appear to be involved in any way at all as regards some potential interstellar propulsion system is the so-called "EM Drive"

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...space-science/

http://wallstreetpit.com/114322-phys...mains-mystery/

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/a...stem-explained
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Old 8th November 2017, 12:23 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
You saw "wormhole" in the title, and decided it must support your assertion - wrong (which you would have found out if you had bothered to read your own link)

Magnetic wormholes have absolutely nothing to do with what you have been talking about... which is an "Einstein-Rosen Bridge".

The former is a real thing, the latter is only theoretical.
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Old 8th November 2017, 05:26 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This is where I keep getting stuck.

The universe is boring, yes I know the awesomeness of its scale, of its incredible variety and so on but on a human scale it is a real let down.

Possibly, possibly not, depends on the person.

Quote:
I see us turning inwards not outwards, into simulation/VR whatever we call it where the universe can be as exciting and as magic as we want it to be.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Quote:
Apart from needed resources - and we won't need Wild Bill Williams of Aldebaran II to go and snag those - I really can't see what we will find we have need to leave near Earth orbit to get - never mind what would be compelling about actually travelling ourselves into the universe. Much easier and more satisfying to switch on "Universe version 2.8 - now with dragons" and explore an interesting at human scales universe in which wonderful things can and will happen.

Only for those who prefer to live in a fantasy world. For many people, there's a huge amount to explore in the universe, things we barely understand as yet, either on the macro or micro scale. The problem is that we're currently stuck in meat bodies with limited lifespans. That's the one big technological hurdle that needs to be overcome, the rest is just minor engineering problems by comparison.

I don't know if this has already been addressed, since I skipped a bit, but this was addressed remarkably well, and plausibly, by Greg Egan in his novel Diaspora. The basic summary is that humankind has developed computer and robotics technologies to the point where it is possible for humans to live entirely as information entities bouncing around in semi-communal virtual realities running on massive mainframes ensconced deep within hardened bunkers. Some prefer to live individually, in robotic bodies capable of maintaining one or more such information entities. In both cases, with proper maintenance, they are effectively immortal. (There are also biological humans still around, but they get wiped out by a stellar gamma ray burst fairly early on.)

From there, it's a simple matter to load a mainframe with robots into a big ship and launch it into space. Time frames mean nothing to an immortal information entity, so the only real technical challenges are maintenance and repair of the mainframes and robots.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:55 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
... The problem is that we're currently stuck in meat bodies with limited lifespans. That's the one big technological hurdle that needs to be overcome, the rest is just minor engineering problems by comparison.

... it is possible for humans to live entirely as information entities bouncing around in semi-communal virtual realities running on massive mainframes ensconced deep within hardened bunkers. Some prefer to live individually, in robotic bodies capable of maintaining one or more such information entities. In both cases, with proper maintenance, they are effectively immortal ... From there, it's a simple matter to load a mainframe with robots into a big ship and launch it into space. Time frames mean nothing to an immortal information entity, so the only real technical challenges are maintenance and repair of the mainframes and robots.
So where are they? If I may be Fermi for a moment.

But I agree that if there is to be interstellar travel, it will be achieved by the kinds of beings you describe.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:42 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I still think the difficulties have to do with how we perceive how the universe works. Impossible for now, but I don't think it's impossible in the future.
Are you proposing that nature's fundamental laws change over time? Not that we don't understand them, but that it would actually be impossible in one time frame and possible in another due to something....magical?
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Old 10th November 2017, 03:11 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Are you proposing that nature's fundamental laws change over time? Not that we don't understand them, but that it would actually be impossible in one time frame and possible in another due to something....magical?
.... That NASA is seriously researching?
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Old 20th November 2017, 10:50 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You saw "wormhole" in the title, and decided it must support your assertion - wrong (which you would have found out if you had bothered to read your own link)

Magnetic wormholes have absolutely nothing to do with what you have been talking about... which is an "Einstein-Rosen Bridge".

The former is a real thing, the latter is only theoretical.
You have to start some where.
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Old 20th November 2017, 10:54 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Crawtator View Post
Are you proposing that nature's fundamental laws change over time? Not that we don't understand them, but that it would actually be impossible in one time frame and possible in another due to something....magical?
No, I think time is an illusion and that we perceive it the way we do because of the way we evolved here on earth. Life might not just be on other planets but in other areas of space, call them dimensions/parallel time lines/ or just another segment of a greater whole that we can't see or conceptualize at this point in our development. I'm not accepting that this little narrow band of reality that we can experience is all there is in the universe. If you want to call it magic, suit yourself, I don't think of it in that way.
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Old 20th November 2017, 11:10 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
No, I think time is an illusion and that we perceive it the way we do because of the way we evolved here on earth. Life might not just be on other planets but in other areas of space, call them dimensions/parallel time lines/ or just another segment of a greater whole that we can't see or conceptualize at this point in our development. I'm not accepting that this little narrow band of reality that we can experience is all there is in the universe. If you want to call it magic, suit yourself, I don't think of it in that way.
For this not to be guesswork, you'd need to show a reason for positing forces we cannot account for. (For example, we cannot perceive magnetism directly with the senses, but it has been observed and then accounted for.) However, if you google Sean Carroll and find the presentation he gave on the completeness of Quantum Field Theory, you'll see where the only remaining gaps for fundamental forces could be, and how they can be essentially eliminated.

Multiverse and string theories contain no remote hint of accessible transfer among dimensions or branching timelines; in fact, would preclude such. (Although you can go down Tegmark's quantum suicide rabbit hole for fun, as I and many others have done to kill the time.)

The most basic problem is that almost all of what might occur to one in speculative mode has already been dealt with handily, with a yawning been-there-OMG-done-that by pesky labcoats with fancy neuron configurations, aka, spoil-sports. Now, how to make a better craft beer, this is still an available niche.
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Old 20th November 2017, 12:10 PM   #296
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"Quantum Theory and non-locality goes something like this (in simple terms); Take two particles, A and B (photons or electrons for example). Pair them, then separate them, and put them on either side of the planet. Stimulate particle A, and particle B will react without any perceivable time delay.

In other words both particles act at the same moment in time regardless of distance. This is remarkable right, how can this be? We need to have a physical connection, we need to observe some kind of interconnecting frequency waveform or something! This also means we’ve got an interaction between particles happening way beyond the speed of light, right? Well, not really.

Quantum studies are showing science, at the fundamental level, that our concept of time as thought of as a linear passage of events is totally wide of the mark, and in fact there is no mark.

All points of reference are arbitrary, they are conveniences, they are non existent in fundamental reality. What’s actually happening when we denote a point in space is we are collapsing a fluctuating field of vibration into matter.

Take any point of reference in the universe, it can be a particle of matter or whatever, it doesn’t much matter (lol). The further you zoom in on the point the fuzzier it gets, the less defined it becomes and the less it seems to make sense, at least from a physical standpoint.

Science has a big problem with this. In its inability to define things absolutely, it comes up with another convenience to explain the indefiniteness of things.

Enter; Renormalisation. Renormalisation is science’s way of solving mathematical problems which occur when we try to define the universe. It’s basically a rounding up and down of the figures.

This inability to define things ultimately is not only observable at a quantum level but also we can see this in everyday life too.

Let’s talk about the room you’re in, the floor, the carpet, the walls, the paint, the ceiling, the things in the room, how they look, where they came from etc.

We can talk about them forever, until the day we die. There is no end to the level to which we can delve into detail about a particular subject. On and on it goes.

The current predominant world paradigm that exists says that if a thing can not be explained, detailed, analysed and documented by linear scientific thought processes then it’s mumbo jumbo. If you have a spiritual explanation for human existence then you’re crazy, you’re in dream land.

The traditional scientific mindset says everything in the universe must be capable of explanation either now or at some point in the future by scientific analytic methods alone.

Except for the most advanced scientific thinkers such as Nassim Haramein, common thinking suggests that in the absence of scientific proof it’s not worth the time discussing. If it can not be put in a box with a label then we’re not interested.

The game I play is an interesting one, it’s imagination in a tight straitjacket – Richard Feynman; Theoretical Physicist

To me, although the current system of measurement and verification is actually moving in the right direction, it has a large portion missing.

Quantum particle behavior cannot be explained in terms of science alone. That is to say, it can not be explained in terms of the waking mind because the waking mind by its nature functions on the basis that our reality is physical.

Our reality consists of things that cannot be broken down into individual bits. It cannot be explained in a linear mechanical fashion, so at some point we will need to bridge the gap.

The concept of time is akin to the old world idea that the earth is flat, and we seem completely ruled by it. To expect to solve world issues by means of this linear thought is shortsighted at best. It merely reproduces the same problems over and over again.

Scientific research is the accepted modern leader of thought in the world, and that’s a good thing. However, it needs to adopt a wider and deeper acceptance of the link between mind and matter. That is if it is to influence significant change towards a better world.

I recognise that science is incredibly valuable to us. It has provided the basis for all the technological advances in the world. But is this how we are to measure success as human beings on this planet?

I don’t think so."

https://larrygmaguire.com/does-time-exist/

Why is Mr. Maguire wrong? I think you need to solve the issue with our perception of time before you can travel through the universe. Obviously some folks are giving this some consideration, whether we ever solve the problem remains to be seen.
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:29 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
You have to start some where.
The article you cited is not the start of the "wormhole" research you claimed was happening.

In that article, the word "wormhole" is used as a fanciful description of an entirely unrelated physical phenomenon.

You need to think less about starting somewhere, and more about starting over.
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:35 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
[...]
https://larrygmaguire.com/does-time-exist/

Why is Mr. Maguire wrong?
Because he makes a lot of factual claims but doesn't provide even a single citation. It's impossible to know what parts of his rant are accurate, which parts are made up, and which parts are based on real science that he has badly misinterpreted.

Actually, I take that back. He does cite a couple wikipedia articles. Which is effectively no citation at all. And even then, he misrepresents renormalisation.

Mr. Maguire is, from this blog article, an ass.
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Old 20th November 2017, 05:13 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
"Quantum Theory and non-locality goes something like this (in simple terms)...
In simple terms, uncertainty. The "inability" of science to deal with absolutes is a feature, not a bug, and the search for final answers comes from the bias provided by seamless truth narratives such as religion; i.e., Big Truth. But there are no big truths, only facts and interpretations, usually probabilistic. Who said there have to be "answers," or that we must understand everything? Nobody. Anything not accessible to the mind is, by definition, nothing, and not worth bothering with.

Muddling through with painstaking progress has a heck of a lot going for it, and once in a while, humankind reaches a milestone in reliable knowledge. But science works along domains separated by scale, and complaining that our scale is unlike others, that we view "reality" differently is, well, both trite and whiny. ...And if there's a hard limit to cognition, and we may bump up against it? Cosmos to sapiens: tough luck.
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Old 20th November 2017, 06:03 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The article you cited is not the start of the "wormhole" research you claimed was happening.

In that article, the word "wormhole" is used as a fanciful description of an entirely unrelated physical phenomenon.

You need to think less about starting somewhere, and more about starting over.
Wouldn't wormhole technology not involve manipulating magnetic fields?
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Old 20th November 2017, 06:08 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
In simple terms, uncertainty. The "inability" of science to deal with absolutes is a feature, not a bug, and the search for final answers comes from the bias provided by seamless truth narratives such as religion; i.e., Big Truth. But there are no big truths, only facts and interpretations, usually probabilistic. Who said there have to be "answers," or that we must understand everything? Nobody. Anything not accessible to the mind is, by definition, nothing, and not worth bothering with.
Isn't that what religious zealots say?

Quote:
Muddling through with painstaking progress has a heck of a lot going for it, and once in a while, humankind reaches a milestone in reliable knowledge. But science works along domains separated by scale, and complaining that our scale is unlike others, that we view "reality" differently is, well, both trite and whiny. ...And if there's a hard limit to cognition, and we may bump up against it? Cosmos to sapiens: tough luck.
Is it trite that an ant doesn't see the world the same way as a human or vice versa? I think you are making up excuses for either human limitations or current scientific limitations.
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Old 20th November 2017, 06:19 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Because he makes a lot of factual claims but doesn't provide even a single citation. It's impossible to know what parts of his rant are accurate, which parts are made up, and which parts are based on real science that he has badly misinterpreted.

Actually, I take that back. He does cite a couple wikipedia articles. Which is effectively no citation at all. And even then, he misrepresents renormalisation.

Mr. Maguire is, from this blog article, an ass.
How does he misrepresent renormalization? As for citations, it's a blog, but based on my own reading from reliable sources more physicists agree our perception of quantifiable time is relative.
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Old 21st November 2017, 08:59 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Isn't that what religious zealots say?
I think it is rather the polar opposite.
Quote:
Is it trite that an ant doesn't see the world the same way as a human or vice versa? I think you are making up excuses for either human limitations or current scientific limitations.
Maybe trite is harsh; let's say it's a well-known observation.

The diff between ants and humans has to do with cognitive and genetic equipment, but it is not the type of scale difference I was referring to (eg macro to micro to nano to plank). The cumulative impact of exploration in science is that there are some pesky facts and knowns now well established, such that the unknowns and unknowables have restrictions as to what they might involve.

As for QM, I think it is best to forget about it altogether, unless you are a physicist or are trying to engineer measuring equipment and so on. Otherwise, though fascinating, it is too easy to make the layman mistake of reasoning from metaphors (fun, yet worthless) and not equations and measurements (the real homework) regarding a domain that scarcely applies at the human scale.
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Old 21st November 2017, 09:36 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Wouldn't wormhole technology not involve manipulating magnetic fields?
You mean you don't know? How can you be so confident about a topic you know so little about?

In fact, there is no such thing as wormhole technology, so there's no way for you to say what it would or would not involve.

You might as well have claimed that an MRI machine, or a subwoofer, was the start of "wormhole technology".
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Old 21st November 2017, 10:39 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You might as well have claimed that an MRI machine, or a subwoofer, was the start of "wormhole technology".
Wouldn't wormhole technology involve machines?
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Old 21st November 2017, 10:52 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Wouldn't wormhole technology involve machines?
I'd guess it would involve wormholes at the least.

Which is a bit of a stumbling block at the moment. And potentially forever.
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Old 21st November 2017, 12:02 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You might as well have claimed that an MRI machine, or a subwoofer, was the start of "wormhole technology".

Stop putting ideas in her head.
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:33 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You mean you don't know? How can you be so confident about a topic you know so little about?

In fact, there is no such thing as wormhole technology, so there's no way for you to say what it would or would not involve.

You might as well have claimed that an MRI machine, or a subwoofer, was the start of "wormhole technology".
It was a rhetorical question. Most inventions and theory build upon what we already have.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...s-new-research

It's just a matter of time, i give it 50-75 years top.
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:49 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
No, I think time is an illusion and that we perceive it the way we do because of the way we evolved here on earth. Life might not just be on other planets but in other areas of space, call them dimensions/parallel time lines/ or just another segment of a greater whole that we can't see or conceptualize at this point in our development. I'm not accepting that this little narrow band of reality that we can experience is all there is in the universe. If you want to call it magic, suit yourself, I don't think of it in that way.
But you don't have evidence supporting your magical ideas.
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:55 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
"Quantum Theory and non-locality goes something like this (in simple terms); [...]
Have you had any training in quantum physics or the philosophy of science? You talk like you think you're an authority, but your posts do not support this,
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:57 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I'd guess it would involve wormholes at the least.

Which is a bit of a stumbling block at the moment. And potentially forever.
Maybe not: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4472233/
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:57 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Wouldn't wormhole technology not involve manipulating magnetic fields?
There is no known wormhole technology involving spacetime. You're moving the goal posts.
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:59 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Isn't that what religious zealots say?



[...].
Name some.
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:01 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
How does he misrepresent renormalization? As for citations, it's a blog, but based on my own reading from reliable sources more physicists agree our perception of quantifiable time is relative.
Citations, if you please. No more dubious blogs that you won't even try to support.
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:04 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
It was a rhetorical question. Most inventions and theory build upon what we already have.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...s-new-research

It's just a matter of time, i give it 50-75 years top.
Your lay-person's guess about the future of a technology that doesn't exist, and which you don't understand is worthless.
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Old 21st November 2017, 03:12 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I was wondering about those,

However I doubt they are a useful basis for interstellar flight even with the addition of magnets.
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Old 21st November 2017, 04:01 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I was wondering about those,

However I doubt they are a useful basis for interstellar flight even with the addition of magnets.
You have to start somewhere. All future science will be built on past science. Clearly wormhole research is already well underway.
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Old 21st November 2017, 08:41 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You have to start somewhere. All future science will be built on past science. Clearly wormhole research is already well underway.
If in the future we have faster than light travel, it will be built on past achievements like the jet engine. The jet engine exists now: therefore FTL travel will exist in the future.

That seems to be your reasoning. May I be permitted to reject it as nonsense?
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Old 21st November 2017, 11:10 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
If in the future we have faster than light travel, it will be built on past achievements like the jet engine. The jet engine exists now: therefore FTL travel will exist in the future.

That seems to be your reasoning. May I be permitted to reject it as nonsense?
He was parodying Jodie's reasoning, so yeah, I think you are safe to reject it as nonsense.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 01:04 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
If in the future we have faster than light travel, it will be built on past achievements like the jet engine. The jet engine exists now: therefore FTL travel will exist in the future.

That seems to be your reasoning. May I be permitted to reject it as nonsense?
Please look at theprestige's link...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4472233/

Full exchange below:

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I'd guess it would involve wormholes at the least.

Which is a bit of a stumbling block at the moment. And potentially forever.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I was wondering about those,

However I doubt they are a useful basis for interstellar flight even with the addition of magnets.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You have to start somewhere. All future science will be built on past science. Clearly wormhole research is already well underway.



Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
He was parodying Jodie's reasoning, so yeah, I think you are safe to reject it as nonsense.
Indeed
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