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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:14 PM   #121
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
And .. you cannot comment on the violence in the NT?

Hans
He can't, because doing so would force him to actually state his position on something. He would also have to admit to the violence in the NT, or "lie for Jesus" in its stead.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:15 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
So you have no comment to the violence in the NT?

Hans
One endeavors to stay on topic, does one not? I don't recall a question specific enough to answer in any event.

Feel free to start a new thread if you think it is the type of subject that would be of interest.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:17 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
So you have no comment to the violence in the NT?

Hans
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
And .. you cannot comment on the violence in the NT?

Hans
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
And you have no comments on the violence in the NT?

Hans
thread flooding, catch it!
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:17 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Thanks. Fixed.
NP. Given the subject matter, it was unclear who said what.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:18 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
One endeavors to stay on topic, does one not? I don't recall a question specific enough to answer in any event.

Feel free to start a new thread if you think it is the type of subject that would be of interest.
Really? OK here is a specific question. What is your position on slavery?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:18 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
One endeavors to stay on topic, does one not? I don't recall a question specific enough to answer in any event.

Feel free to start a new thread if you think it is the type of subject that would be of interest.
It is OK, you don't have to.

Hans
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:19 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
And a hydrogen bomb is more effective than a hand grenade.
Do you genuinely consider this video a "hand grenade" in this fight?
As my analogy made clear, I consider that the list of things that are more effective than other things is a long list, in the same sense that a lawsuit may be more effective than a video.

But those tautologies do not mean, as you impied (and I can quote you), that any action which may not be as effective as some other action should be abstained from.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I would hope that I'm presenting cogent arguments.
Not the ones that, by their own reasoning, suggest that you should stop posting.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Again, I'd appreciate it if you could point me to something specific in the video that you feel contradicts what I've said about it. Thus far everything everybody, including you, has said about it has reinforced my impression, but I'm more than willing to be persuaded otherwise.
Working pretty hard at being high maintenance, are you?

As I've already pointed out, the whole video contradicts what you said, and I quote:

"I don't get why people need to frame these kinds of videos as some sort of noble crusade, when they're much more obviously about pointing and laughing at people whose beliefs they consider to be stupid."

Except the redneck exclusively made fun of the hogwash-laden bible, not the (current) believers of it.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:19 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
More cynicism and snide remarks (without yhe "lolz" this time, you must be learning... well done!)

Is it any wonder no-one here takes you seriously?
Oh dear, did you not originate "Sky daddies"? Given how eagerly and repeatedly posted it, I was given the impression that was something that perhaps you had come up with.

By the way, sensational irony on the "cynicism and snide remarks"!
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:20 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
thread flooding, catch it!
Just repeating a question you are obviously avoiding. Now, however, you have stated that you don't want to answer it. Fine, your choice.

Hans
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:23 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Really? OK here is a specific question. What is your position on slavery?
I'm sorry, was there something in the video in the OP about "Slavery"? perhaps you can give me a timestamp where that was discussed?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:25 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear, did you not originate "Sky daddies"? Given how eagerly and repeatedly posted it, I was given the impression that was something that perhaps you had come up with.
Of course I didn't invent it, and you know perfectly well that I didn't

However, I consider it to be a really good and descriptive term as mockery goes, so I will use it, when and where and however I please

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
By the way, sensational irony on the "cynicism and snide remarks"!
Right back at ya! (no, I didn't invent that phrase either).

Now, let me ask you a specific question:

What is your position on belief in God?
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:40 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Of course I didn't invent it, and you know perfectly well that I didn't

However, I consider it to be a really good and descriptive term as mockery goes, so I will use it, when and where and however I please



Right back at ya! (no, I didn't invent that phrase either).

Now, let me ask you a specific question:

What is your position on belief in God?
I am not sure at this point whether your comment complaining that I was acting "snide and cynical' was intentional irony (given your repeated use of juvenelia like "sky daddies," and bragging about mockery) or just really astonishing level of hypocritical whining. Oh dear, are you really complaining that perhaps I was mocking your comments? Well THAT is certainly something!

I'm sorry, was there something in the video in the OP about my "position on belief in God"? perhaps you can give me a timestamp where that was discussed?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:45 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wait, wait, wait. Did you really just intentionally delete a part of the post I had quoted?

Wow!

Here it is in its entirety!!

"I prefer to say that infantile claims deserve mockery. There is more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god"."

So to sum up, the first post:

"Personally, I rather enjoy an honest engagement with an honest believer."

the second:

"I prefer to say that infantile claims deserve mockery. There is more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god"."

As such, how can some claim to "enjoy' "honest debate" with someone he calls an "honest believer" while at the same time asserting that the "honest believer's" actual beliefs are "infantile" "deserve mockery" and that there is "more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god.""

You just really lost that bet.

But thanks for allowing me the pleasure of spelling this all out in detail.

Fantastic
I disagree.

I think you clearly failed to distinguish between people and claims.

I think you have implied that "an honest believer" will resort to infantile claims, thereby triggering abaddon mockery.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:51 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
I disagree.

I think you clearly failed to distinguish between people and claims.

I think you have implied that "an honest believer" will resort to infantile claims, thereby triggering abaddon mockery.
No I think I have established that one cannot and does not debate "honestly" with honest believers where one believes that that the "honest believer's" actual beliefs are "infantile" "deserve mockery" and that there is "more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god."

But lets walk us all through this shall we:

Honest believer: I believe in God.
Response: Your belief is "infantile" "deserve mockery" and there is "more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god."

Now that is some "honest" debate there!
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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:53 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I'm sorry, was there something in the video in the OP about "Slavery"? perhaps you can give me a timestamp where that was discussed?

Thanks in advance.
I asked about no video. I directly asked you what was your position on slavery.

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Old 3rd November 2017, 01:55 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I asked about no video. I directly asked you what was your position on slavery.

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Kindly explain what that has to do with the subject of the thread, because right now it appears to be off topic.

that is why i asked was there something in the video in the OP about "slavery"? perhaps you can give me a timestamp where that was discussed?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 02:01 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
As my analogy made clear, I consider that the list of things that are more effective than other things is a long list, in the same sense that a lawsuit may be more effective than a video.
This does not answer the question I asked you. Please answer the question I asked you.

Quote:
But those tautologies do not mean, as you impied (and I can quote you), that any action which may not be as effective as some other action should be abstained from.
You may have inferred that from something I've posted, but I have not implied any such thing.

Quote:
Not the ones that, by their own reasoning, suggest that you should stop posting.
You're not presenting a counter-argument to what I said, you're merely repeating what I was replying to. I have already replied to this assertion of yours. I'd appreciate it if you addressed what I said.

And, while we're on that subject, could you please point to any specific point in the video that, as you claim, addresses the issue of the teaching of the Bible in public schools?

Quote:
As I've already pointed out, the whole video contradicts what you said, and I quote:

"I don't get why people need to frame these kinds of videos as some sort of noble crusade, when they're much more obviously about pointing and laughing at people whose beliefs they consider to be stupid."

Except the redneck exclusively made fun of the hogwash-laden bible, not the (current) believers of it.
"It's time for you Christians to accept the fact [Jesus] ain't coming back. Get over it already. I mean, if these aren't the stories primitive monkeys would tell each other I don't know what is."

Seems pretty unequivocally positioning himself and those who don't believe as superior to those who do, and I'm given to understand that it's intended to be humorous.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:15 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You mention a story of baby massacre (which one in particular?). The first place I'd start with that story is in examining the Bible's roots in polytheism and Yahwism and how this ties in to Yahweh being the god of war. I'd then like to look at who authored the story and when and see what can be said about revisions it underwent over time. I'd also look at the various cultures the story was authored and revised in and try to understand what the story is trying to say and why it's saying it the way it is.
I like that kind of analysis too. But there do exist people who say, "God said, I believe it, that settles it," who are not interested in talking about context.

I think if you are from a heavy religious background, and you become an atheist, you are naturally responding to the heavy-handed conditioning you experienced.

No one tried to indoctrinate me, so I make fewer such generalizations.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:16 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh, the devastating "No, YOU!" rejoinder.
[drama cut]
Better luck and less drama next time.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:44 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This does not answer the question I asked you. Please answer the question I asked you.
OK, but first you have to go and get the ball and bring it to me.

Ah, nevermind. To demonstrate my patience and forbearance, I'll answer the ridiculously concocted question.

No. I don't even consider "this" a "fight" at all. The H-bomb/grenade comparison was an obvious example of one explosive that is "more effective" (your words) than another. And yet grenades have been used extensively in war, while H-bombs have never been used in war.

<various additional hoop jumping requests declined and snipped>

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And, while we're on that subject, could you please point to any specific point in the video that, as you claim, addresses the issue of the teaching of the Bible in public schools?
At the beginning and at the end. Seek, and you shall find. I know you can do it. You found that obscure cherry-pick.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
"It's time for you Christians to accept the fact [Jesus] ain't coming back. Get over it already. I mean, if these aren't the stories primitive monkeys would tell each other I don't know what is."
That's a weak cherry-pick. The redneck admonished Christians to "Get over it already" and then criticized the stories again, by placing the stories at a simian level of sophistication.

A little doggy who can't take that little pitty-pat needs to stay on the porch.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Seems pretty unequivocally positioning himself and those who don't believe as superior to those who do, and I'm given to understand that it's intended to be humorous.
That part seems more an expression of frustration than humor. Nor is it unequivocal superiority positioning, which would have been much more unequivocal, had it occurred. You know us atheists don't pull our put-downs unless we're trying to avoid mod censure.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 04:55 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No I think I have established that one cannot and does not debate "honestly" with honest believers where one believes that that the "honest believer's" actual beliefs are "infantile" "deserve mockery" and that there is "more solid, tangible evidence for Santa than any "god."
Speak for yourself.

You're not giving abaddon much credit. Also claiming to be able to predict his actions.

Clue: Considering a belief deserving of mockery does not automatically trigger mockery. It that were the case, both abbadon and I would long since have been banned from these forums, and probably not for mocking Christians.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 05:08 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Speak for yourself.

You're not giving abaddon much credit. Also claiming to be able to predict his actions.

Clue: Considering a belief deserving of mockery does not automatically trigger mockery. It that were the case, both abbadon and I would long since have been banned from these forums, and probably not for mocking Christians.
Bit surprised that you continue to miss the point. Focus on the false assertion about honest debate. That is false as shown.
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Old 3rd November 2017, 10:22 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Kindly explain what that has to do with the subject of the thread, because right now it appears to be off topic.

that is why i asked was there something in the video in the OP about "slavery"? perhaps you can give me a timestamp where that was discussed?

Thanks in advance.
It's a tenet of your religion. Atheists reject it out of hand.
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Old 4th November 2017, 12:49 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
He can't, because doing so would force him to actually state his position on something. He would also have to admit to the violence in the NT, or "lie for Jesus" in its stead.
All the Christians I know and certainly all the major denominations of Christianity hold that the God in the old testament and the new are one and the same.

It would be a very strange Christian that holds that the God referenced in the OT is not the God referenced in the NT.

Why we are being told to only read the descriptions of God in the NT is rather strange.
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Old 4th November 2017, 02:57 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
All the Christians I know and certainly all the major denominations of Christianity hold that the God in the old testament and the new are one and the same.

It would be a very strange Christian that holds that the God referenced in the OT is not the God referenced in the NT.

Why we are being told to only read the descriptions of God in the NT is rather strange.
Indeed.

I just thought he was trying to hand-wave the OT away so that he wouldn't have to defend the torture, slavery, murder and baby-slaughter.

Of course, he could be an adherent of Marcionism, but its unlikely since that particular form of Gnosticism went the way of the dinosaurs about 1500 years ago.
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Old 4th November 2017, 05:17 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I like that kind of analysis too. But there do exist people who say, "God said, I believe it, that settles it," who are not interested in talking about context.

I think if you are from a heavy religious background, and you become an atheist, you are naturally responding to the heavy-handed conditioning you experienced.

No one tried to indoctrinate me, so I make fewer such generalizations.
This post is following on from Toontown's lead and taking that post out of context in order to change what I was saying. None of your post addresses anything I've said.
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Old 4th November 2017, 05:30 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
No. I don't even consider "this" a "fight" at all.
Then why did you frame this video as being a rebuttal to a campaign to get the Bible taught in schools?

Quote:
The H-bomb/grenade comparison was an obvious example of one explosive that is "more effective" (your words) than another. And yet grenades have been used extensively in war, while H-bombs have never been used in war.
Yet now your claim is that this isn't even a fight, let alone a war, which makes your characterisation of this video as a "hand-grenade" even less apt.

I don't think you've thought your position on this through at all.

Quote:
<various additional hoop jumping requests declined and snipped>
For the peanut gallery - the "various additional hoop jumping requests" that have been "declined and snipped" is actually one request to address the contents of my posts rather than straw manning me.

Quote:
At the beginning and at the end. Seek, and you shall find. I know you can do it. You found that obscure cherry-pick.
Then I was correct in saying that the only point in the video that even mentions it is half a sentence at the beginning, and that it doesn't do more than simply mention it in passing. Thank you, I did think you were misrepresenting the video, and now you've confirmed that I haven't actually missed anything salient to this particular claim of yours.

Quote:
The redneck admonished Christians to "Get over it already" and then criticized the stories again, by placing the stories at a simian level of sophistication.
Yes, he is comparing the intellectual capacity of those who believe such stories to monkeys.

Quote:
That part seems more an expression of frustration than humor.
We both agree that it's not funny, but comparing people to monkeys is unquestionably mocking them.

Quote:
You know us atheists don't pull our put-downs unless we're trying to avoid mod censure.
Please don't presume to speak for me.
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Old 4th November 2017, 05:41 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Again, I just think it's a shame that, on a board dedicated to scepticism, rationality, debate, and critical thinking
Based on the quote, it's actually very very very very simple:

There are no signs of any god existing. It is on the gods and ONLY on the gods to show themselves. Did not happen so far. All we have is claims and anecdotes.
Ask yourself: How would a "test" for the existence of a god even look like? A few pages of equations with QED on the last page? Pretty laughable.

If you look rationally at any holy book, there are numerous claims of DIRECT interaction with humans.
For a being that can create universes it should be easy to send his voice directly into the brain of every single human and say "I EXIST".
Who would deny the existence of god if BILLIONS of people simultaneously claimed "Gods voice was in my head"?
Did not happen so far, so we can very very very safely conclude that gods do either not exist or they don't care very much about us, which is basically the same.


If any god existed, he would know there are non-believers and if he cared, he could easily turn them into believers (or "Knowers" lol)

The current situation is: There are a lot of barking dogs and their barks sound like "But muh beliefs".

If you want to have a rational debate, start with these dogs and call them out for dishonesty, being obtuse and enjoying being some kind of victim of those evil non believers.
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Old 4th November 2017, 05:51 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
Based on the quote, it's actually very very very very simple:

There are no signs of any god existing. It is on the gods and ONLY on the gods to show themselves. Did not happen so far. All we have is claims and anecdotes.
Ask yourself: How would a "test" for the existence of a god even look like? A few pages of equations with QED on the last page? Pretty laughable.

If you look rationally at any holy book, there are numerous claims of DIRECT interaction with humans.
For a being that can create universes it should be easy to send his voice directly into the brain of every single human and say "I EXIST".
Who would deny the existence of god if BILLIONS of people simultaneously claimed "Gods voice was in my head"?
Did not happen so far, so we can very very very safely conclude that gods do either not exist or they don't care very much about us, which is basically the same.


If any god existed, he would know there are non-believers and if he cared, he could easily turn them into believers (or "Knowers" lol)

The current situation is: There are a lot of barking dogs and their barks sound like "But muh beliefs".

If you want to have a rational debate, start with these dogs and call them out for dishonesty, being obtuse and enjoying being some kind of victim of those evil non believers.
None of this is relevant to anything I've said.
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:23 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
Who would deny the existence of god if BILLIONS of people simultaneously claimed "Gods voice was in my head"?
I would. I think many people would. It might be aliens, for example.

Why would you conclude that voices in the head -- even shared by everyone on earth -- is proof for God's existence?
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Old 4th November 2017, 07:33 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
All the Christians I know and certainly all the major denominations of Christianity hold that the God in the old testament and the new are one and the same.

It would be a very strange Christian that holds that the God referenced in the OT is not the God referenced in the NT.

Why we are being told to only read the descriptions of God in the NT is rather strange.
That was not what I was asked, and that is not the subject of the thread.

The subject of the thread was and is the execrable you tube video by a fanatical anti-theist character who calls himself the Redneck Atheist.

Now questions having nothing to do with the execrable you tube video by a fanatical anti-theist character who calls himself the Redneck Atheist by people who have made it absolutely clear that they believe that religious beliefs of any sort but in particular Christian beliefs are worthy of nothing more than mockery (although perhaps inspired in part by the the execrable you tube video by a fanatical anti-theist character who calls himself the Redneck Atheist) have been raised, I suppose as an attempt to distract from the execrable you tube video by a fanatical anti-theist character who calls himself the Redneck Atheist.

If one wished to discuss the New Covenant created through our Lord Jesus Christ, certainly that would make for an interesting discussion, but equally certainly not in a thread about an execrable you tube video by a fanatical anti-theist character who calls himself the Redneck Atheist
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Old 4th November 2017, 08:29 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
None of this is relevant to anything I've said.
Because you say so? Let me use smaller words: No sign of any god, no reason to debate anything. That's the easiest way to deal with claims about invisible sky daddies.
Your whining about not being friendly to people who make baseless claims is completely irrelevant.
Bring something to work with -> I'll debate you. Make baseless claims about the everloving, invisible skydaddy -> I will call you an idiot. Could not be simpler.

That being said: Would you like to honestly debate the existence of the easter bunny with me? But please don't attack me for my belief that the easter bunny clearly exists.

Originally Posted by GDon View Post
I would. I think many people would. It might be aliens, for example.

Why would you conclude that voices in the head -- even shared by everyone on earth -- is proof for God's existence?
LOL, just LOL. ALIENS? You realize that aliens are in the same ballpark as god? No signs of them existing.

Also, could you explain why aliens would put a voice into the head of billions of people? Just a prank? LOL

Also, you seem to ignore the fact that the bible claims that god has a voice with which he interacted with humans? Why and how did they know that is was god who talked to them? Oh, that's right, we are not allowed to take these parts literally, right?
Unless, of course, a believer tells us what we are allowed to take literally. LOL


My point still stands:

Holy book claims: god interacted with humans.
No signs of interaction (well, if you exclude the claims of schizophrenics and barking dogs) -> no reason to think any god exists -> no reason to engage in "honest" debate.

It's literally the same as debating the existence of Santa Claus.

Maybe you should read the bible or any other holy book and realize that the whole book makes it look like everyone was perfectly aware that god x intervenes in human affairs on a regular basis and he made sure people knew it was him.
Seriously, are you going to ignore all that gibberish in the bible where on every second page someone praises the lord?
How did we come to the current state of "A huge amount of human beings does not think there is any god"
The bible itself says "I am a jealous god".
Why am I not being punished for not only not believing but actively mocking religious bs?

How do you react to people who comment on a random plane crash with "That was gods punishment for sinful lifestyles"?
Do you see any signs of any god actively intervening in human society AND making sure we know it was him?
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Old 4th November 2017, 09:43 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
Because you say so?
Yes. You even had to cut a sentence and only post half of it in order to fashion your reply.

I genuinely read these posts full of straw men and terrible, weak thinking, argumentation and posturing and despair that this is seemingly the best the atheist contingent on this board has to offer. This place really has gone downhill considerably over the last few years.
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Old 4th November 2017, 10:21 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
Holy book claims: god interacted with humans.
No signs of interaction (well, if you exclude the claims of schizophrenics and barking dogs) -> no reason to think any god exists -> no reason to engage in "honest" debate.
I can see how this follows, but then what is the reason to engage in mockery and calling people idiots?
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Old 4th November 2017, 11:14 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
None of this is relevant to anything I've said.

On the contrary, it addresses every single point. Your trouble is that you are completely missing every single point.
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Old 4th November 2017, 11:53 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
On the contrary, it addresses every single point. Your trouble is that you are completely missing every single point.
I'm reasonably certain I know what I have or have not said.
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Old 4th November 2017, 01:05 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'm reasonably certain I know what I have or have not said.
Others have answered you, some in excruciating detail, every single point you made. I have no intention of simply repeating what they have ably explained - if you don't get it, then you don't get it. It seems no matter what anyone says you are not going to be satisfied.

PS. SW. SW. SW! means

Some will
Some won't
So what!
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Old 4th November 2017, 02:28 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Others have answered you, some in excruciating detail, every single point you made.
People other than StackOverflow having replied to my posts does not imply that StackOverflow's post addressed anything I said.

I despair, I really do. I honestly hope that there are still atheists left on this board who are able to formulate better arguments than I've seen over the last couple of weeks. If not then this board is in a far sorrier state than I'd feared.
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Old 4th November 2017, 03:04 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
People other than StackOverflow having replied to my posts does not imply that StackOverflow's post addressed anything I said.

I despair, I really do. I honestly hope that there are still atheists left on this board who are able to formulate better arguments than I've seen over the last couple of weeks. If not then this board is in a far sorrier state than I'd feared.

Perhaps you could supply examples of the kinds of arguments you would like to see atheists use.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 4th November 2017 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 4th November 2017, 03:19 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Perhaps you could supply examples of the kinds of arguments you would like to see atheists use.
Cogent ones which address the points at hand would be a start.
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