ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING!

Reply
Old 6th November 2017, 09:24 PM   #281
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,609
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not in favor of atheism by force or legislation. I'm thoroughly convinced that the more educated a society is the less superstitious it is.
Religion should not be taught in public schools. If theists want to fill their children's minds with all the BS stories about invisible, magical sky daddies from some old book of fables written by a bunch of itinerant goat-herders, they can do that at home.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2017, 09:55 PM   #282
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,063
Theists that say they want to teach religion in schools really want to preach their particular religion in schools. I’m sure Christians would be horrified if their children were taught Islam or Sikhism at school. I would be happy if religion was taught in schools as a history subject. It would be a good thing for children to learn about the Crusades, Inquisition, burning of witches, and all the other atrocities perpetrated by religious beliefs. They might require some extensive counseling after every lesson however.
__________________
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 6th November 2017 at 10:06 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 12:45 AM   #283
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,842
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Theists that say they want to teach religion in schools really want to preach their particular religion in schools. I’m sure Christians would be horrified if their children were taught Islam or Sikhism at school. I would be happy if religion was taught in schools as a history subject. It would be a good thing for children to learn about the Crusades, Inquisition, burning of witches, and all the other atrocities perpetrated by religious beliefs. They might require some extensive counseling after every lesson however.
Not just as history, it is an important subject in the world today, often entangled with other political and social problems. I don't see anything wrong about religion being taught in school as an academic subject.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 12:57 AM   #284
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 20,344
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Theists that say they want to teach religion in schools really want to preach their particular religion in schools. I’m sure Christians would be horrified if their children were taught Islam or Sikhism at school.........
No, that's precisely what happens in UK schools. All of the world's major religions are taught.
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 12:59 AM   #285
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 20,344
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not just as history, it is an important subject in the world today, often entangled with other political and social problems. I don't see anything wrong about religion being taught in school as an academic subject.
My daughter, a passionate anti-theist, studied RE to GCSE level precisely because it is taught as an academic subject, and is broadly focused on all religions and their place in global society not narrowly focused on any one particular religion.
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 06:23 AM   #286
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
It always amuses me that the US has separation of church and state enshrined in law, and yet the teaching of Christianity in schools is a hot-button issue despite having been fought for decades, yet the UK is technically a Christian country with Bishops in the House of Lords and the Head of State - nominally the ultimate authority on all matters - also being the head of the Church of England and where schools are legally required not only to "provide religious education and daily collective worship for all registered pupils", but that the RE syllabus must "reflect the fact that religious traditions in the country are in the main Christian" and that the "collective worship" "must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character" and yet "76% of secondary schools [a]re breaking the law by failing to provide daily acts of worship".

Yup, there's a legal requirement for "daily worship" in schools, due to the fact that this country has a state religion and laws to promote that religion, and the vast majority of schools simply don't comply with the law. In fact, it's my experience that the majority of Britons are surprised to find such a law exists. I've spoken to teachers who didn't have a clue that this was even a law.

I think it really comes down to the populous. More Britons are not religious than are religious, and those who are tend more towards the "vaguely believe in God if asked but don't generally think about it that much" end of the spectrum than the "this is a very important part of my identity" end. OTOH, more USAians are religious than not, and there seems to be a much higher percentage of those who are who see it as an important part of their lives.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

Last edited by Squeegee Beckenheim; 7th November 2017 at 06:24 AM.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 08:02 AM   #287
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 14,521
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Religion should not be taught in public schools. If theists want to fill their children's minds with all the BS stories about invisible, magical sky daddies from some old book of fables written by a bunch of itinerant goat-herders, they can do that at home.
Religion IS NOT taught in public schools in the United States. Can't speak about elsewhere.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 11:03 AM   #288
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,609
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Religion IS NOT taught in public schools in the United States. Can't speak about elsewhere.
I know that. I never said it was.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 12:19 PM   #289
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,063
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, that's precisely what happens in UK schools. All of the world's major religions are taught.
I didn’t know that but after a quick read of the links provided by SB in post #285, it seems it’s not “all of the world's major religions” (see quote below) and 76% of secondary schools don’t comply with the silly law anyway.

“Collective worship in county schools and equivalent grant-maintained schools must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character, though not distinctive of any particular Christian denomination”.

I‘m absolutely certain that if anyone wanted to preach Islam or Sikhism in public New Zealand schools (where I live) then Christians would protest at least as loudly as atheists. Given the terrorism perpetrated in the UK by radical Islam nutters I can’t imagine UK parents accepting Islam being taught (preached) to their little darlings in public schools.
__________________
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 7th November 2017 at 12:21 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2017, 01:17 PM   #290
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I didn’t know that but after a quick read of the links provided by SB in post #285, it seems it’s not “all of the world's major religions” (see quote below) and 76% of secondary schools don’t comply with the silly law anyway.

“Collective worship in county schools and equivalent grant-maintained schools must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character, though not distinctive of any particular Christian denomination”.
You're quoting the part about collective worship, not RE. The law on RE says that the syllabus must "reflect the fact that religious traditions in the country are in the main Christian". That is, I would say, open to some liberal interpretation. It certainly doesn't say that it must give priority to teaching Christianity as being any more right than any other religion.

And, even then, the Curriculum Framework for Religious Education in England has this to say:

Quote:
The law requires that local authority RE agreed syllabuses and RE syllabuses used in academies that are not designated with a religious character ‘must reflect the fact that the religious traditions in Great Britain are in the main Christian, while taking account of the teaching and practices of the other principal religions represented in Great Britain’. This means that from the ages of 5 to 19 pupils in schools learn about diverse religions and worldviews including Christianity and the other principal religions. Some schools with a religious character will prioritise learning about and from one religion, but all types of school need to recognise the diversity of the UK and the importance of learning about its religions and worldviews, including those with a significant local presence.
Which reads to me like the advice there is actually pretty much the opposite of what the law says. It quotes the law saying that it must primarily concentrate on Christianity, and then says that what that means is that it must teach about all religions and that schools which are religious will naturally favour that religion.

Quote:
Given the terrorism perpetrated in the UK by radical Islam nutters I can’t imagine UK parents accepting Islam being taught (preached) to their little darlings in public schools.
Teaching and preaching are not the same thing. And there are Islamic schools in the UK. You seem to be making the assumption that there aren't Muslim-majority areas in the UK.

You are right, though, that there have been scaremongering stories in the UK tabloid press on the subject. Mind you, even The Daily Mail reported somewhat negatively on Catholic schools deciding to teach Christianity and Judaism, rather than Islam, even with a school in which the pupils were 90% Muslim. Although, of course, they couldn't do it without referencing Operation Trojan Horse.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 02:21 PM   #291
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,941
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post


Teaching and preaching are not the same thing. And there are Islamic schools in the UK. You seem to be making the assumption that there aren't Muslim-majority areas in the UK.

Ynot did say public schools:

Quote:
Given the terrorism perpetrated in the UK by radical Islam nutters I can’t imagine UK parents accepting Islam being taught (preached) to their little darlings in public schools.
And I can't see any comment about a lack of Muslim majority areas in the UK.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 03:17 PM   #292
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,941
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I didn’t know that but after a quick read of the links provided by SB in post #285, it seems it’s not “all of the world's major religions” (see quote below) and 76% of secondary schools don’t comply with the silly law anyway.

“Collective worship in county schools and equivalent grant-maintained schools must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character, though not distinctive of any particular Christian denomination”.

I‘m absolutely certain that if anyone wanted to preach Islam or Sikhism in public New Zealand schools (where I live) then Christians would protest at least as loudly as atheists. Given the terrorism perpetrated in the UK by radical Islam nutters I can’t imagine UK parents accepting Islam being taught (preached) to their little darlings in public schools.

The UK are ahead of Australia it would seem.

http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/natio...ivate-schools/

Quote:
Australia is one of the very few countries in the OECD that publicly funds private schools.
More than 40 per cent*of Australian secondary children now attend private schools – either so-called independent or religious schools.*Australia has one of the most privatised school systems in the OECD.

Is New Zealand one of those few countries as well? And it all began recently in 1972 - a giant backward step.

Quote:
Prior to 1972 no private schools received any government funding whatsoever in this country.*While most OECD countries have a private school system, very few of them receive public funding.
Think about England, the home of the elite private school, and the exclusive private schools in the USA: not one cent of taxpayer’s money goes into their budgets.

The issue is of particular poignancy today, with Islamic schools around the countryside as well. We cannot not help fund Islamic schools if we continue to support the Christian ones.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 07:27 PM   #293
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Ynot did say public schools:
I may be wrong, but I think that ynot is not British and therefore assumed that when he said "public schools" he meant schools that aren't private, as opposed to what the term means in the UK, especially given that what he was commenting on was what I had posted about such schools.

Quote:
And I can't see any comment about a lack of Muslim majority areas in the UK.
Why would Muslim parents in a Muslim majority area in the UK have any problem with Islam being "taught (preached) to their little darlings" in their local schools? The statement that "UK parents" would have a problem with this relies on the assumption that there is nowhere where the majority of the parents of these "little darlings" would be Muslims themselves.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 08:21 PM   #294
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,609
It is one of the vagaries of the way things are done in England

a "State School" is what the rest of he world calls a "Public School"
a "Public School" is what the rest of the world calls a "Private School"

go figure?
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2017, 11:55 PM   #295
David Mo
Graduate Poster
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,924
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Plenty of places would be right up your alley! USSR, Communist China, well golly just lots of places!
What an obsession with communism! This is a true monomania. Take care with this. It can be dangerous, very dangerous.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
And, to be fair, I don't know "atheists" feel, I know how a tiny subset of atheists feel.

The subset that would watch the Redneck Atheist and perhaps those who think that "Sky daddy" is the type of juvenile mockery that they need to make their "arguments."
It is not amazing that with this small outlook on atheism you have so small thoughts. A wider scope of readings would be convenient to your monomania.
Something like Why I Am Not a Christian by Bertrand Russell would be an easy beginig to get a better idea of what atheism is. You're welcome.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 12:25 AM   #296
David Mo
Graduate Poster
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,924
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It is one of the vagaries of the way things are done in England

a "State School" is what the rest of he world calls a "Public School"
a "Public School" is what the rest of the world calls a "Private School"

go figure?
British peculiarities never cease to amazing me.

I think that religious education is common in “state” schools around the World. In many of them the “private” schools religiously oriented are sustained by state funds. Even in the super-laicist France the private-but-state-financed —what a monster!— was introduced/expanded by ex-President Sarkozy.

This privilege of religions is usually accorded —with pleasure— by conservative parties and it is a fatal consequence of the implement of international covenants in the frame of global liberalism.
This is why it is so difficult to combine true liberalism and atheism.

I suppose that to call “public” to the “private” is a good example of the famous Orwell’s “double-language”. Or the “alternative facts”. Or it is some kind of Shakespearean metaphore… All is possible in Britain.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 12:28 AM   #297
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,941
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
What an obsession with communism! This is a true monomania. Take care with this. It can be dangerous, very dangerous.

Watch this space! The Big Dog will be levering Stalin into the conversation soon.



Quote:
It is not amazing that with this small outlook on atheism you have so small thoughts. A wider scope of readings would be convenient to your monomania.
Something like Why I Am Not a Christian by Bertrand Russell would be an easy beginig to get a better idea of what atheism is. You're welcome.

Are yes, Bertrand Russell, my liberator from theism.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 01:35 AM   #298
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I suppose that to call “public” to the “private” is a good example of the famous Orwell’s “double-language”. Or the “alternative facts”. Or it is some kind of Shakespearean metaphore… All is possible in Britain.
Like many oddities of language, the phrase is rooted in history: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/de.../public_school

Quote:
in England public school (a term recorded from 1580) originally denoted a grammar school under public management, founded for the benefit of the public (contrasting with private school, run for the profit of the proprietor); since the 19th century the term has been applied to the old endowed English grammar schools, and newer schools modelled on them, which have developed into fee-paying boarding schools.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 04:08 AM   #299
David Mo
Graduate Poster
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,924
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Like many oddities of language, the phrase is rooted in history: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/de.../public_school
Thank you. These are the consequences of the worship to Tradition: the old meets the new!
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 04:48 AM   #300
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Thank you. These are the consequences of the worship to Tradition: the old meets the new!
I don't think it's so much the worship of tradition as much as people consistently using words in a certain way. English is very much a living language and much of it changes all the time. However, much of it doesn't change. The term "public schools" is just one that is encompassed by the latter.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 07:20 AM   #301
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,903
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
What an obsession with communism! This is a true monomania. Take care with this. It can be dangerous, very dangerous.

It is not amazing that with this small outlook on atheism you have so small thoughts. A wider scope of readings would be convenient to your monomania.
Something like Why I Am Not a Christian by Bertrand Russell would be an easy beginig to get a better idea of what atheism is. You're welcome.
well, you see, this thread is about the "Redneck Atheist" and my humble suggestion is that you tuck into that video in the the OP so you can discuss the subject of the thread.

Did Bertrand Russell use the term "Sky Daddy" and "babble" too? Do you think he would be impressed with the Redneck Atheist and "babble"?
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 01:25 PM   #302
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,371
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well, you see, this thread is about the "Redneck Atheist" and my humble suggestion is that you tuck into that video in the the OP so you can discuss the subject of the thread.

Did Bertrand Russell use the term "Sky Daddy" and "babble" too? Do you think he would be impressed with the Redneck Atheist and "babble"?
I think that Bertrand Russel .... nay, I know ... that he was capable of far more subtle rejections than the "Redneck Atheist". However, is this thread about form or contents? You made it clear that you reject the old testament, which I personally find OK. Especially in Europe, many Christians tend to feel that the OT is mainly a bunch of metaphoric legend.

You also seemingly made it clear that you will not discuss the implications for the New Testament (at least you have consistently avoided it). Of course, it is your right to take that position.

Finally, you have made it abundantly clear that you do not like the "Redneck Atheist's" form of presentation, which is obviously your right.

So, have you any further points to make?

Hans
__________________
If you love life, you must accept the traces it leaves.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 01:30 PM   #303
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,903
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I think that Bertrand Russel .... nay, I know ... that he was capable of far more subtle rejections than the "Redneck Atheist". However, is this thread about form or contents? You made it clear that you reject the old testament, which I personally find OK. Especially in Europe, many Christians tend to feel that the OT is mainly a bunch of metaphoric legend.

You also seemingly made it clear that you will not discuss the implications for the New Testament (at least you have consistently avoided it). Of course, it is your right to take that position.

Finally, you have made it abundantly clear that you do not like the "Redneck Atheist's" form of presentation, which is obviously your right.



Hans
Well in this case I was responding to a post directed to me, but if I do have any more points I will run them by you first.

By the way, I look forward to you "summarizing" the contributions of everyone else in this thread, topped off with a 'jaunty': "So, have you any further points to make?"
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 01:58 PM   #304
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,941
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well, you see, this thread is about the "Redneck Atheist" and my humble suggestion is that you tuck into that video in the the OP so you can discuss the subject of the thread.

Did Bertrand Russell use the term "Sky Daddy" and "babble" too? Do you think he would be impressed with the Redneck Atheist and "babble"?

I can see you are quite proud of the title "Redneck Atheist" you have coined. Even spelt with capital letters like a proper name no less.

I think Bertrand Russell would have found the presentation amusing and appreciated the satire, which you obviously haven't. Although the presentation is somewhat crass, the points made are quite valid, and it is noted that you will not address them.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 02:31 PM   #305
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,371
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well in this case I was responding to a post directed to me, but if I do have any more points I will run them by you first.

By the way, I look forward to you "summarizing" the contributions of everyone else in this thread, topped off with a 'jaunty': "So, have you any further points to make?"
MM, well. It seems my points stand.

Hans
__________________
If you love life, you must accept the traces it leaves.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 03:32 PM   #306
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Although the presentation is somewhat crass, the points made are quite valid, and it is noted that you will not address them.
Again, I'm not sure how valid the points actually are. I ask again in this thread - would any of the atheists here accept the argument "this seems silly to me therefore it is untrue" as a good one if they didn't already agree with the conclusion?
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 03:39 PM   #307
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,886
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Again, I'm not sure how valid the points actually are. I ask again in this thread - would any of the atheists here accept the argument "this seems silly to me therefore it is untrue" as a good one if they didn't already agree with the conclusion?
No. The simple fact that no evidence at all for the existence of any deity has always been sufficient of itself.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 03:46 PM   #308
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,063
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Again, I'm not sure how valid the points actually are. I ask again in this thread - would any of the atheists here accept the argument "this seems silly to me therefore it is untrue" as a good one if they didn't already agree with the conclusion?
Why do you think that a "silly" presentation of valid points has anything to do with the validity of the points? Seems it's merely a case of an emotional rejection of a presentation being mirrored by an emotional rejection of valid points.
__________________
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 9th November 2017 at 03:51 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 03:48 PM   #309
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,903
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Why do you think that the ("silly") presentation of valid points has anything to do with the validity of the points? Seems it's merely a case of an emotional rejection of the presentation being mirrored by an emotional rejection the valid points.
yikes, I'm not sure you could have missed his point any more if you tried...
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 03:54 PM   #310
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,886
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
yikes, I'm not sure you could have missed his point any more if you tried...
You have evidence for some deity. Any deity at all? Have at it.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 03:57 PM   #311
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,903
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You have evidence for some deity. Any deity at all? Have at it.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
Did you not understand the point either?

Huh....
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 03:57 PM   #312
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,063
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
yikes, I'm not sure you could have missed his point any more if you tried...
I'm always very happy to be educated. Please explain "his point" that I missed . . .
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Again, I'm not sure how valid the points actually are. I ask again in this thread - would any of the atheists here accept the argument "this seems silly to me therefore it is untrue" as a good one if they didn't already agree with the conclusion?
ETA - If Squeegee Beckenheim also thinks I "missed his point" I would also appreciate his explanation as well.
__________________
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 9th November 2017 at 04:28 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 04:33 PM   #313
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
No. The simple fact that no evidence at all for the existence of any deity has always been sufficient of itself.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
That's the reasoning that leads you and I to the conclusion that God does not exist. But that's not the argument presented in the video. The argument in the video is that the stories in the Bible are silly and therefore are untrue.

Ignore the fact that you agree with the conclusion and look at the argument. Is it actually a good one? It's a textbook argument from incredulity, isn't it?
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 04:34 PM   #314
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Why do you think that a "silly" presentation of valid points has anything to do with the validity of the points?
I don't.

Quote:
Seems it's merely a case of an emotional rejection of a presentation being mirrored by an emotional rejection of valid points.
Can you explain what you believe the "valid points" to be, if they are not that the stories he is presenting are ridiculous?
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 04:42 PM   #315
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,886
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's the reasoning that leads you and I to the conclusion that God does not exist. But that's not the argument presented in the video. The argument in the video is that the stories in the Bible are silly and therefore are untrue.

Ignore the fact that you agree with the conclusion and look at the argument. Is it actually a good one? It's a textbook argument from incredulity, isn't it?
It is born out of the claim that ^I have no need to present any evidence for my favourite deity"

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 04:47 PM   #316
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,063
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't.

Can you explain what you believe the "valid points" to be, if they are not that the stories he is presenting are ridiculous?
The valid points are that many/most stories the bible presents are self-evidently ridiculous/incredulous. This isn’t an argument from incredulity, it’s an argument about lack of credulity. The presentation style and method is moot.

It's the stories The Bible is presenting that are ridiculous. It's not ridiculous to point out that ridiculous stories are ridiculous (regardless of how ridiculously you do it).

Give an example of a story he's presenting that's ridiculous (not ridiculously presented).
__________________
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 9th November 2017 at 05:03 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 05:02 PM   #317
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It is born out of the claim that ^I have no need to present any evidence for my favourite deity"

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
That is not an argument made in the video. The argument presented in the video is that the stories are ridiculous and therefore untrue.

I ask again: if you didn't agree with the conclusion - if, say, it were a theist saying that evolution must be untrue because it's ridiculous - would you think it a good argument? I suspect not.

And, once more for the sake of clarity, I'm not talking about the conclusions, I'm talking about the argument itself.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 05:06 PM   #318
ynot
Philosopher
 
ynot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,063
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That is not an argument made in the video. The argument presented in the video is that the stories are ridiculous and therefore untrue.

I ask again: if you didn't agree with the conclusion - if, say, it were a theist saying that evolution must be untrue because it's ridiculous - would you think it a good argument? I suspect not.

And, once more for the sake of clarity, I'm not talking about the conclusions, I'm talking about the argument itself.
Valid conclusions come from valid evidence. Arguments are merely a method of presentation.

The Bible and religious beliefs are ridiculous because they completely lack the support of any credible evidence. Evolution has the support of credible evidence. Can you spot the difference?
__________________
Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.

Last edited by ynot; 9th November 2017 at 05:11 PM.
ynot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 05:11 PM   #319
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The valid points are that many/most stories the bible presents are self-evidently ridiculous/incredulous. This isn’t an argument from incredulity, it’s an argument about lack of credulity.
I've been told that this video is a "hand grenade" against having these stories taught in schools. The argument presented in the video is that these stories should not be taught in schools because they are ridiculous. That is exactly an argument from incredulity.

Some theists say that evolution is self-evidently ridiculous/incredulous and that it lacks credibility. It's a bad argument when they say such things. It doesn't become a good argument because it's Bible stories being called ridiculous rather than evolution. It doesn't become a good argument because you agree with what it's an argument for. That's the antithesis of critical thinking.

Quote:
The presentation style and method is moot.
Indeed, which is why I remain curious as to why you brought them up in response to me.

Quote:
It's the stories The Bible is presenting that are ridiculous.
I agree. What I disagree with is that my or anybody's belief that they are ridiculous is evidence that they are not true.

Quote:
It's not ridiculous to point out that ridiculous stories are ridiculous (regardless of how you do it).
I didn't say it was.

Quote:
Give an example of a story he's presenting that's ridiculous (not ridiculously presented).
I think all the ones I've seen on the video I think are ridiculous. But what I or anybody else thinks about how ridiculous they are or are not are not indicators of how true they are or are not. My belief that they are ridiculous is not evidence that they are not true. Dusty's belief that they are ridiculous is not evidence that they are not true, and his assertion that it is is an argument from incredulity. That's a bad argument, no matter who is making it what they're making it about, and what position they are trying to support by making it.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th November 2017, 05:14 PM   #320
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Valid conclusions come from valid evidence.
I would say they come from valid evidence and sound reasoning. It's entirely possible to have valid evidence and come to an incorrect conclusion.

Quote:
Arguments are merely a method of presentation.
A method of presentation of the reasoning, rather than the evidence. The arguments rely on the evidence.

Quote:
The Bible and religious beliefs are ridiculous because they completely lack the support of any credible evidence.
I agree. But that's not the argument being presented in this video. The argument being presented in this video is that they are untrue because they are ridiculous. And that's a bad argument.

Quote:
Evolution has the support of credible evidence. Can you spot the difference?
I can. And were that the argument this video made I would not be saying that it was a bad argument. But it is not the argument this video makes. The video makes a bad argument instead. It is not a good argument just because you and I agree with the conclusion it's being presented in support of.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:55 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.