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Tags rape culture , sex scandals , sexuality issues

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Old 9th November 2017, 09:07 AM   #1
dann
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What makes some people want to have sex with unwilling 'partners'?

In order to avoid derailing the Kevin-Spacey thread, I'm starting a new one devoted to this question.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm going to make the assumption that you're straight and ask if you have the same difficulty comprehending those who are attracted to their own sex?
You assume correctly, but no, I have no more difficulty comprehending men who are attracted to men than I have comprehending women who are attracted to men! (And please don't tell me again that there are an awful lot of these cases, also in history!) So in a way, I find it much easier to comprehend lesbians: We are turned on by women!

And in this case (that is: ordinary sexual attraction and desire), Darwinian explanations make sense: it helps procreation if the act that results in offspring is enjoyable to the extent of ecstasy. And it helps bring up that offspring if the partners remain attracted to each other, i.e. love. That homosexuality doesn't result in procreation doesn't bother me. Nature sometimes works in mysterious ways. And I think that people who are bothered by this, "Unnatural!", resort to this pseudo-Darwinian argument, not because it's unnatural (which, of course it isn't since you find it all over the animal kingdom), but because they are against gays for different reasons and just use nature as an excuse the same way others use the Bible.

Quote:
I don't really think there's much of an explanation for taste. Well, there probably is, but it's likely to be neurological and complex and difficult to explain.

I think, perhaps, it's easier to comprehend kinks in others when one has kinks oneself. Sexual relationships aren't always symmetrical so, in order to, for instance, to get a thrill out of spanking someone, one has to be able to understand that someone is capable of getting a thrill out of being spanked while having no desire whatsoever to be on the receiving end of same.
Now, I think that it would be a good idea to distinguish between taste and kinks. They don't appear to be the same thing at all. (And I also find the question of different tastes rather uninteresting: I don't like cheese, for instance, but I really don't know why I don't, and I also don't care. Maybe a geneticist will someday discover the different genetic makeup of cheese lovers and cheese haters, but I won't buy the book.)

But unlike you, I think that there is much to be explained when we are talking about sexual kinks: I don't think that there is a bicycle-seat-sniffing gene, a necrophilia gene, a nylon-stocking gene or a masochism gene, and I doubt that being into one of these things will make it easier to understand the others. Why should it?
And some of these aren't that hard to understand with a little effort: Fetishes are often associated with the desired sex or body parts: bicycle seats, for instance, so if you believe that you cannot get nearer to the object of your desire you transfer your desire to the inanimate object.
And in the fantasy world of sado-masochism, the masochists are 'liberated' from being responsible and in charge of their own desires (really a contradiction in terms: tied down and free!), they don't have to feel guilty about sex (as you're supposed to if you are good Xians), and sadists don't have to fear the humiliation of rejection: their fantasy is one of being in total control (also a contradiction in terms, in as far as sex is usually a question of letting go of control).

But the sadists are different from sexual offenders like Spacey: They seem to want their partners to be consensual, they want them not only to like but to desire what is going all: their role-playing games.
The Spaceys, the Cosbys, the Weinsteins, the O'Reillys etc. don't really seem to care about this, and they may even be turned on by the unwillingness of their partners.

And that is the thing that I find difficult to understand: The sado-masochists are playing a game of unwillingness, but it is pretense and everybody appears to be aware of that.

But how can anybody enjoy to have sex with an unwilling partner?!
(And please don't tell me about the numerous historical cases! I know, I know!)

I also don't understand why so many people seem to find the explanation perfectly natural that this is how people (or at least men) behave when they are positioned so far above everybody else that they no longer have to care about how other people feel.
I can see why a celebrity surrounded by admiring and willing sex partners might feel tempted to 'stray', but that only makes it so much harder to understand why they would then resort to drugging or in other ways coercing or downright forcing people to commit sexual acts that they don't want to be a part of.
I don't see what's the 'fun' in that …

My original question in the Kevin Spacey thread
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 9th November 2017 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:15 AM   #2
theprestige
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Tell me why you don't understand the attraction some people have for it, and I'll tell you why they have the attraction.
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:22 AM   #3
dann
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I have already told you what I don't understand, including a couple of examples of things that I find easier to understand. I don't understand your "why"?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:29 AM   #4
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Have you considered the possibility that some people just want to have sex with particular people, and whether those people are willing partners or not doesn't affect their desire to have sex with them?
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:32 AM   #5
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I don't, although Roboramma may be on to something
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Old 9th November 2017, 09:33 AM   #6
theprestige
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I have already told you what I don't understand, including a couple of examples of things that I find easier to understand. I don't understand your "why"?
I know you already told us what. That's why I didn't ask what. Let's all move beyond what.

Why don't you understand the attraction some people have for sexual coercion? Is there something in your nature or nurture that blocks your understanding of this?

Some other ways to look at the question:

It's basically bullying. Do you not understand the attraction of bullying in general? Or is it just bullying with a sexual component that you don't understand?

Also, your question is presented as a rant fueled by personal incredulity. But I think what you're basically saying is, there's probably a psychological or sociological cause for this kind of attraction. You don't know what the cause is, but you assume it's there, and you'd like to try to find it and understand it if possible.

Is that about right?

Last edited by theprestige; 9th November 2017 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 9th November 2017, 10:43 AM   #7
dann
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Have you considered the possibility that some people just want to have sex with particular people, and whether those people are willing partners or not doesn't affect their desire to have sex with them?
Considered, yes, but I don't think that's the case. A similar theory existed about rape a long time ago: Rapists wanted to have sex, that's all, but since they hadn't succeeded to have sex with a consensual partner, they would rape somebody instead. However, nowadays the consensus seems to be that rape is more about power than about sex. That many rapists are married seems to confirm that view. Also, if they don't care if a partner is into them or not, an alternative would be to go to a prostitute. Instead they rape, which seems to indicate that what turns them on isn't sex but rape.
Drug rape is also odd: People usually prefer a partner who is active (or at least conscious). Sex with a person who's drugged seems to come close to necrophilia. (And IIRC, that's how Jeffrey Dahmer started.)

By the way, I find your "just" a little weird.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:13 AM   #8
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It's combining pleasure and power. The strong controlling the weak. The suffering of the victim provides additional pleasure to the perpetrator in an instinctual/primal way, I believe.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:20 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
It's combining pleasure and power. The strong controlling the weak. The suffering of the victim provides additional pleasure to the perpetrator in an instinctual/primal way, I believe.
There's also the possibility, mentioned earlier, that they simply want people who don't want them back, and use force to get what they want: sex.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:26 AM   #10
dann
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I know you already told us what. That's why I didn't ask what. Let's all move beyond what.

Why don't you understand the attraction some people have for sexual coercion? Is there something in your nature or nurture that blocks your understanding of this?
I'm sorry, but I think that the why is a silly question, which you make sillier by bringing nature/nurture into it: That I don't understand does not imply that I am genetically or sociologically incapable of understanding, only that I don't do so yet. But if it's because you find my lack of understanding unnatural, it might be a stepping stone towards understanding if you could tell me what is supposed to be natural about the Spacey (etc.) attitude to sex.

Quote:
Some other ways to look at the question:

It's basically bullying.
I don't think it is. If you mean that somebody exerts power over somebody else in both cases, then I think that you're right, but I fear that bringing bullying into it will only confuse the attempt at clarification.

Quote:
Do you not understand the attraction of bullying in general? Or is it just bullying with a sexual component that you don't understand?
Very often bullying seems to be about securing your position in a pecking order. It seems to occur mainly in groups, not in one-to-one relationships. (But, of course, exerting power over someone does exist, in and out of bed.)

Quote:
Also, your question is presented as a rant fueled by personal incredulity. But I think what you're basically saying is, there's probably a psychological or sociological cause for this kind of attraction. You don't know what the cause is, but you assume it's there, and you'd like to try to find it and understand it if possible.

Is that about right?
No, not quite. It's probably more a question of empathically understanding - which I know is a weird concept in this case. I think that I am able to empathize with both sadists and masochists (see OP), i.e. to understand what they get out of their 'kink', and I do so without finding their attitude to sex appealing. This then enables me to consider what might have caused this attitude. But in the case of forcing/coercing people to have sex, statistics about the correlation between abusive parents and predatory sexual habits wouldn't help me understand the phenomenon itself. I think …
(I suspect that it is probably psychological rather than sociological or genetic, but I'm not sure.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:32 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
It's combining pleasure and power. The strong controlling the weak. The suffering of the victim provides additional pleasure to the perpetrator in an instinctual/primal way, I believe.
What would make it instinctual? I know that you can find analogous behavior in the animal kingdom, but still … It also wouldn't explain how the alleged primal instincts would be transformed into human consciousness and concepts.
The reciprocity of the sexual act seems to be how we humans usually enjoy having sex so how do you go from that to the (apparently) complete lack of empathy?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:35 AM   #12
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All I can think of is that such people have given up on getting a willing partner and are evoking some primitive right to take what they want as reward for their perceived status.
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:42 AM   #13
theprestige
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You're looking for an explanation that will help you empathize with sexual bullies?
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Old 9th November 2017, 11:51 AM   #14
dann
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
All I can think of is that such people have given up on getting a willing partner and are evoking some primitive right to take what they want as reward for their perceived status.

That idea seems to go against the consensus - I also find it hard to believe - but one researcher seems to think so (at least in the case of rape): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes..._gratification
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:01 PM   #15
dann
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're looking for an explanation that will help you empathize with sexual bullies?

What is called cognitive empathy (Wiki):
Quote:
Cognitive empathy: the capacity to understand another's perspective or mental state. The terms cognitive empathy and theory of mind or mentalizing are often used synonymously, but due to a lack of studies comparing theory of mind with types of empathy, it is unclear whether these are equivalent.
It doesn't say sympathize!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:03 PM   #16
Imhotep
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What would make it instinctual? I know that you can find analogous behavior in the animal kingdom, but still … It also wouldn't explain how the alleged primal instincts would be transformed into human consciousness and concepts.
The reciprocity of the sexual act seems to be how we humans usually enjoy having sex so how do you go from that to the (apparently) complete lack of empathy?
Yeah that's the complex part of it.

It's more easily explained for someone that has a complete lack of empathy, such as a sociopath. They just simply enjoy it this way more.

People that have some empathy would most likely feel some guilt after the act, but not having tied those thoughts of union and loving etc. to the act in the way you described, they would not necessarily experience any empathy for the victim during the act - and if they did, it would be overpowered by the primal desires.

I don't know how to explain what makes it instinctual. Genetics passed down from dominant males with little empathy, I would suppose. They would have had lots of offspring.

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Old 9th November 2017, 12:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That idea seems to go against the consensus - I also find it hard to believe - but one researcher seems to think so (at least in the case of rape): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes..._gratification
I'm probably wrong.
But people who presume to have the right to force themselves on others automatically presume that the other person doesn't have a right to refuse them. That is either because they consider themselves very worthy or the other person very unworthy (using derogatory and demeaning terms for them, examples of which probably won't make it through the forum censor).
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:20 PM   #18
theprestige
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What is called cognitive empathy (Wiki):

It doesn't say sympathize! : )
I understand what empathy is. I never said sympathize.

Again: You're looking for an explanation that will help you empathize with sexual bullies?
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:21 PM   #19
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Here is the thing, a lot of rapists have no idea they are rapists. Freezing up is a very common reaction to this sort of violation and so they just go on and have sex and their partner just lays there. Maybe bad sex but they wouldn't know it was rape.

Here is a story of a rapist who did not realize he was asking for legal advice on how to get away with rape.

https://archive.is/ZnMKo
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:53 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In order to avoid derailing the Kevin-Spacey thread, I'm starting a new one devoted to this question.



You assume correctly, but no, I have no more difficulty comprehending men who are attracted to men than I have comprehending women who are attracted to men! (And please don't tell me again that there are an awful lot of these cases, also in history!) So in a way, I find it much easier to comprehend lesbians: We are turned on by women!

And in this case (that is: ordinary sexual attraction and desire), Darwinian explanations make sense: it helps procreation if the act that results in offspring is enjoyable to the extent of ecstasy. And it helps bring up that offspring if the partners remain attracted to each other, i.e. love. That homosexuality doesn't result in procreation doesn't bother me. Nature sometimes works in mysterious ways. And I think that people who are bothered by this, "Unnatural!", resort to this pseudo-Darwinian argument, not because it's unnatural (which, of course it isn't since you find it all over the animal kingdom), but because they are against gays for different reasons and just use nature as an excuse the same way others use the Bible.



Now, I think that it would be a good idea to distinguish between taste and kinks. They don't appear to be the same thing at all. (And I also find the question of different tastes rather uninteresting: I don't like cheese, for instance, but I really don't know why I don't, and I also don't care. Maybe a geneticist will someday discover the different genetic makeup of cheese lovers and cheese haters, but I won't buy the book.)

But unlike you, I think that there is much to be explained when we are talking about sexual kinks: I don't think that there is a bicycle-seat-sniffing gene, a necrophilia gene, a nylon-stocking gene or a masochism gene, and I doubt that being into one of these things will make it easier to understand the others. Why should it?
And some of these aren't that hard to understand with a little effort: Fetishes are often associated with the desired sex or body parts: bicycle seats, for instance, so if you believe that you cannot get nearer to the object of your desire you transfer your desire to the inanimate object.
And in the fantasy world of sado-masochism, the masochists are 'liberated' from being responsible and in charge of their own desires (really a contradiction in terms: tied down and free!), they don't have to feel guilty about sex (as you're supposed to if you are good Xians), and sadists don't have to fear the humiliation of rejection: their fantasy is one of being in total control (also a contradiction in terms, in as far as sex is usually a question of letting go of control).

But the sadists are different from sexual offenders like Spacey: They seem to want their partners to be consensual, they want them not only to like but to desire what is going all: their role-playing games.
The Spaceys, the Cosbys, the Weinsteins, the O'Reillys etc. don't really seem to care about this, and they may even be turned on by the unwillingness of their partners.

And that is the thing that I find difficult to understand: The sado-masochists are playing a game of unwillingness, but it is pretense and everybody appears to be aware of that.

But how can anybody enjoy to have sex with an unwilling partner?!
(And please don't tell me about the numerous historical cases! I know, I know!)

I also don't understand why so many people seem to find the explanation perfectly natural that this is how people (or at least men) behave when they are positioned so far above everybody else that they no longer have to care about how other people feel.
I can see why a celebrity surrounded by admiring and willing sex partners might feel tempted to 'stray', but that only makes it so much harder to understand why they would then resort to drugging or in other ways coercing or downright forcing people to commit sexual acts that they don't want to be a part of.
I don't see what's the 'fun' in that …

My original question in the Kevin Spacey thread

All the attention Weinstein and Cosby and the others get is because of what they are, not who. This is the only way these guys get adoring fans. They are used to getting sex because of their position - and it doesn't have to be a position of power. Do people think Weinstein would have women hanging on him if he were a plumber?

They are already used to being liked for who they are perceived to be and not for themselves. Getting sex because you are famous may not be coercion, but it isn't normal either.

What I'm trying to say is that these guys don't get women the normal way - they never have. Maybe they can't. They're f'd up dudes and maybe always have been.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:57 PM   #21
dann
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I'm probably wrong.
But people who presume to have the right to force themselves on others automatically presume that the other person doesn't have a right to refuse them. That is either because they consider themselves very worthy or the other person very unworthy (using derogatory and demeaning terms for them, examples of which probably won't make it through the forum censor).
I can do without the examples!
But I think that you are on to something.
That would have to be a very twisted entanglement (tautology?) of two contradictory attitudes to your partners/victims: on the one hand desirable, but on the other hand unworthy. Maybe unworthy because you desire them. Or maybe even unworthy because you desire them …
The combination of contempt and desire reminds me of the Madonna-Whore Complex, even though it's not really the same thing.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:58 PM   #22
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Overpowering and dominating someone physically will often (always?) create a testosterone surge.
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Old 9th November 2017, 12:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
All I can think of is that such people have given up on getting a willing partner and are evoking some primitive right to take what they want as reward for their perceived status.
There are plenty of rapists who were married and even have kids
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:08 PM   #24
dann
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Getting sex because you are famous may not be coercion, but it isn't normal either.
It definitely isn't coercion - fans may even try to force themselves on the celebrity! And it certainly isn't something that ordinary people are exposed to.
But it completely destroys the idea that it's a question of inability to make a partner want to have sex with you: They are already throwing themselves at you, and yet you resort to drugging or otherwise coercing them.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 9th November 2017, 01:21 PM   #25
dann
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
What I'm trying to say is that these guys don't get women the normal way - they never have. Maybe they can't. They're f'd up dudes and maybe always have been.
They obviously don't get women the normal way, but you can say that about all celebrities. But then again, not all celebrities are Weinsteins or Spaceys, they're not all f'd up dudes - and most men who sexually abuse women one way or the other aren't celebrities, of course.
We should probably also recognize that in many ways being a celebrity is an enviable position, and envy/jealousy also generates hate.
What I mean is that one should be careful about not letting envy dictate one's appraisal of these guys, but what Cosby, Spacey, Weinstein are accused of is something that would also be condemned if quite ordinary men did the same thing, of course.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 9th November 2017, 01:25 PM   #26
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too much work. I did not answer that since I have no idea what the right answer is.
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Old 9th November 2017, 01:55 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
There are plenty of rapists who were married and even have kids
This.

There are no golden rules for this stuff. People like the above can seemingly turn their empathy on and off like a switch, or they are emulating empathy when they are with their family, or some third possibility... like rationalizing that victims don't deserve any of their empathy (thinking Green River Killer).

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Old 9th November 2017, 01:59 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Now, I think that it would be a good idea to distinguish between taste and kinks. They don't appear to be the same thing at all. (And I also find the question of different tastes rather uninteresting: I don't like cheese, for instance, but I really don't know why I don't, and I also don't care. Maybe a geneticist will someday discover the different genetic makeup of cheese lovers and cheese haters, but I won't buy the book.)

But unlike you, I think that there is much to be explained when we are talking about sexual kinks: I don't think that there is a bicycle-seat-sniffing gene, a necrophilia gene, a nylon-stocking gene or a masochism gene, and I doubt that being into one of these things will make it easier to understand the others. Why should it?
Because it directly gives insight into how one can be sexually aroused about something that's strangely specific and seemingly non-sexual in nature.

Rape is by its very nature sexual yet it's also about many other things, depending on how someone is raped. Such as: control, domination, humiliation, feeling powerful and manly. Although people might enjoy this on its own, for one reason or another, such thoughts become sexualized and highly erotic.

Feelings of of powerlessness and being under someones utter control might not seem highly arousing for most people yet clearly some people find it very, very arousing. Likewise there are those who find it very sexually enjoyable to have complete control over someone, although from what i can tell far more people seem to trend towards submissiveness.

Being impulsive, lacking in empathy, having "victim blaming" beliefs and narcissistic tendencies also make one more likely to rape someone. Again it's important to not conflate finding thoughts of rape, raping someone or being raped and finding it enjoyable to rape someone. One does not presume the other.

Very "normal people" might engage in rape and other forms of sexual coercion under certain circumstances such as group pressure, them feeling compelled to prove their masculinity and manliness, as well as it giving outlet for any sexual frustration because their victims are treated (officially or otherwise) as an acceptable target. Rape during warfare is a great example of that can occur together with other forms of abuse and brutality that would not occur during times of peace.
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Here is the thing, a lot of rapists have no idea they are rapists. Freezing up is a very common reaction to this sort of violation and so they just go on and have sex and their partner just lays there. Maybe bad sex but they wouldn't know it was rape.
And aren't they even aware that they're actively trying to interpret what's going on as consent? They actually think that freezing up is the state a woman is in when enjoying or looking forward to having sex? (Unlike many others, that is one delusion you probably won't get from watching porn!)
To me the description sounds like a very bad excuse from somebody who feels entitled to have sex with an unwilling partner.

Quote:
Here is a story of a rapist who did not realize he was asking for legal advice on how to get away with rape.

https://archive.is/ZnMKo
I think it's a troll. I'm not sure, but he doesn't sound like a real person to me.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:42 PM   #30
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Because it directly gives insight into how one can be sexually aroused about something that's strangely specific and seemingly non-sexual in nature.
No, it doesn't! The idea that genes are what makes people aroused by "strangely specific" objects is absurd. Do you know when nylon stockings were invented? Or bicycle seats? (Neither do I, but it doesn't matter.) They haven't existed long enough for genes to target people's sexuality towards them. This is nothing akin to the evolution of lactose tolerance in adults.

Quote:
Rape is by its very nature sexual yet it's also about many other things, depending on how someone is raped. Such as: control, domination, humiliation, feeling powerful and manly. Although people might enjoy this on its own, for one reason or another, such thoughts become sexualized and highly erotic.

Feelings of of powerlessness and being under someones utter control might not seem highly arousing for most people yet clearly some people find it very, very arousing. Likewise there are those who find it very sexually enjoyable to have complete control over someone, although from what i can tell far more people seem to trend towards submissiveness.
Yes, some people clearly find it very, very arousing, but you appear to have missed the point in the OP and here as well: This wasn't meant to be a prove-that-these-things-actually-exist thread. See also (in the Spacy thread).

Quote:
Being impulsive, lacking in empathy, having "victim blaming" beliefs and narcissistic tendencies also make one more likely to rape someone. Again it's important to not conflate finding thoughts of rape, raping someone or being raped and finding it enjoyable to rape someone. One does not presume the other.
presume???

Quote:
Very "normal people" might engage in rape and other forms of sexual coercion under certain circumstances such as group pressure, them feeling compelled to prove their masculinity and manliness, as well as it giving outlet for any sexual frustration because their victims are treated (officially or otherwise) as an acceptable target. Rape during warfare is a great example of that can occur together with other forms of abuse and brutality that would not occur during times of peace.
They might, but feeling compelled to prove your masculinity etc. doesn't seem to be very enjoyable. On the contrary, they would probably hate the act so it isn't really relevant.
Also, does it seem as if Cosby and Spacey wanted to prove their masculinity due to group pressure? Again and again? If they had bragged about it, I might think so, but that does not seem to have been the case.
Unlike the pussy-grabbing Trump …
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th November 2017, 02:58 PM   #31
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It seems somewhat pointless to me to try to really understand something like this. You can understand the technical manifestations, you could HEAR the reasoning, but if your mind isn't a rapey mind, you won't ever "get it" to your satisfaction.

Why do some people enjoy killing and dismemberment? Why do some people enjoy putting cigarettes out on themselves? Why do some people get off on eating ***** ?

It's pretty hard to fathom a satisfying "explanation" for these things occurring in brains. Why is rape different? There's nothing to get. It's a pathology.
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Old 9th November 2017, 03:03 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
It seems somewhat pointless to me to try to really understand something like this. You can understand the technical manifestations, you could HEAR the reasoning, but if your mind isn't a rapey mind, you won't ever "get it" to your satisfaction.

Why do some people enjoy killing and dismemberment? Why do some people enjoy putting cigarettes out on themselves? Why do some people get off on eating ***** ?

It's pretty hard to fathom a satisfying "explanation" for these things occurring in brains. Why is rape different? There's nothing to get. It's a pathology.
To me anyway, it's in the realm of criminology which I enjoy reading about as its a combination of some interesting disciplines; psychology, issues of society, criminal investigation, the legal system, how people deal with loss or trauma, etc. I like complex stuff that has many facets.

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Old 9th November 2017, 03:16 PM   #33
dann
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
It's pretty hard to fathom a satisfying "explanation" for these things occurring in brains.
Yes, it is pretty hard.

Quote:
Why is rape different?
Don't you know the difference between, killing, dismemberment and eating *****? Are you saying that they're all the same thing? Feel the same way? Or are caused by the same thing???

Quote:
There's nothing to get. It's a pathology.
It may be "a pathology", but why would that mean that there's "nothing to get"??!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th November 2017, 03:16 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
To me anyway, it's in the realm of criminology which I enjoy reading about as its a combination of some interesting disciplines; psychology, issues of society, criminal investigation, the legal system, how people deal with loss or trauma, etc. I like complex stuff that has many facets.
On that level, I can see it. I originally went to school for psychology and still find it interesting (just not enough jobs, so I went back for business management.)

But once someone bypasses the academic portion and starts trying to understand it on another level, an empathetic level or whatever, I believe it becomes an exercise in frustration. It can also be upsetting. Some minds are just broken.

And I also worry about lines blurring between discussions of consensual sadism enthusiasts and rapists. I've seen it happen before. They are not two sides of the same coin. Not even in the same purse, really.

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Old 9th November 2017, 03:18 PM   #35
dann
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
And I also worry about lines blurring between discussions of consensual sadism enthusiasts and rapists. I've seen it happen before. They are not two sides of the same coin. Not even in the same purse, really.
I tried to avoid that and pointed out major differences in the OP.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th November 2017, 03:27 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Here is the thing, a lot of rapists have no idea they are rapists. Freezing up is a very common reaction to this sort of violation and so they just go on and have sex and their partner just lays there. Maybe bad sex but they wouldn't know it was rape.

Here is a story of a rapist who did not realize he was asking for legal advice on how to get away with rape.

https://archive.is/ZnMKo
A reddit link. Aren't you the persuasive one?
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Old 9th November 2017, 03:37 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Don't you know the difference between, killing, dismemberment and eating *****? Are you saying that they're all the same thing? Feel the same way? Or are caused by the same thing???
First of all, calm the heck down. Why are you firing strings of question marks at me like a broken grammar check? It's incredibly stressful to try to have a normal conversation with someone doing that. If you are not in fact worked up, then I apologize. But the style of your post certainly makes it seem that way, and it automatically gets my hackles up.

Ignoring that for now, I will move on to my response. Which is that I do not understand your first question. Of course I know the difference between those things. I also know the thing they have in common. Which is that they are all harmful behaviors which a small subset of humans find pleasurable, sometimes sexually so, but the majority of humans rightfully find viscerally abhorrent. Rape would also fit into that category.

So it is going to be very difficult for a "regular" person to really understand how those so afflicted could derive pleasure in such ways. There isn't any common ground there for a lot of people. And my point in bringing up the examples I did was merely to point out that just because something occurs in brains all over the human race doesn't mean it has a purpose or (even biological) reasoning behind it.

Quote:
It may be "a pathology", but why would that mean that there's "nothing to get"??!
There's nothing to "get" for me, and I studied this sort of crap quite in-depth for almost six years. (Yeah, I was a super-senior at university. Does that really surprise anyone? ) I understand how it manifests, I know the common comorbidities, I know how to talk to the afflicted in a professional setting (though I never have - when I worked in the field it was as a lowly drug & alcohol counselor, and I would have needed a few more years of schoolin' before they let me talk to Dahmers), and I could even take a stab at what childhood incidents might have led to the pathologies developing, provided I were given that information and had the patient in a proper clinical setting.

But NONE of that means I am even a step closer to really understanding WHAT they get out of it, HOW they could possibly do it, WHAT is going through their heads as they undertake vile activities such as rape for pleasure, etc. That's all I was saying. It was almost a philosophical musing, and it certainly wasn't meant to insult you or your question. Merely to point out the futility of trying to understand minds objectively (another reason I quit).

Maybe I didn't understand your original question properly, then. If so, please feel free to correct me.
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Old 9th November 2017, 03:40 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I tried to avoid that and pointed out major differences in the OP.
I know that, and I was not referring to you. I was making a general statement. As threads progress, these side topics often drift in. In my experience, actual rape and so-called "rape fantasy" can get conflated a lot - if not explicitly, then in the nuances, connotations, and subtext of the psychology discussion.
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Old 9th November 2017, 03:59 PM   #39
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I don't see what's so difficult here. Some people get off on the power. Someone like Weinstein (allegedly). . . he's a powerful guy in Hollywood so he knows that he can use that power to coerce hot women he would never have a real shot at -indeed that have flat turned him down- to give in to his demands. And when they don't, it pisses him off so he forces it on them one way or the other. It's probably not about sex per se (well, it's partially about sex) but about the ability to manipulate beautiful and desirable women to feed his ego. He probably justifies it to himself like, "Of course they want me, I'm Harvey Weinstein! Yeah, maybe I forced the issue a little but they would have given in anyway; they always do."
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Old 9th November 2017, 05:04 PM   #40
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If it's really about power and forced manipulation then Weinstein can demand that the beautiful actresses clean his office and home and scrub his floors and toilets. Instead he just seems to want the sex, so I'm thinking it's a hell of a lot about the sex and the power is only used to get the sex.
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