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Old 15th November 2017, 11:09 AM   #161
The Don
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Originally Posted by Grey2000 View Post
Aromatherapy, Homeopathy, "Identifying", Transcendental Meditation, Hypnotism, Seances, Acupuncture, Reflexology.

I'd say that there's a fair few liberals who reject reality too.
Unlike the GOP, they don't set health policy.
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Old 15th November 2017, 11:23 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Grey2000 View Post
Aromatherapy, Homeopathy, "Identifying", Transcendental Meditation, Hypnotism, Seances, Acupuncture, Reflexology.

I'd say that there's a fair few liberals who reject reality too.
Do any of these characterize people as liberals within mainstream politics?

What % of people who believe these things vote Democrat vs Republican?

Most importantly, what fraction of voters from either party base their vote on any of these beliefs?
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Old 15th November 2017, 11:27 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
Rolleyes, indeed...

Which is why I propose sticking to elected officials, and their policies and records. How many elected conservative politicians are against teaching creationism in schools, or in favour of environmental regulations?

From the official GOP site: "We will enforce the original intent of the Clean Water Act, not itís distortion by EPA regulations. We will likewise forbid the EPA to regulate carbon dioxide."
From the Dem site: "We are committed to getting 50 percent of our electricity from clean energy sources within a decade, with half a billion solar panels installed within four years and enough renewable energy to power every home in the country."

Political platforms are full of science and reality denial, aren't they?
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Old 15th November 2017, 11:33 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
From the Dem site: "We are committed to getting 50 percent of our electricity from clean energy sources within a decade, with half a billion solar panels installed within four years and enough renewable energy to power every home in the country."

Political platforms are full of science and reality denial, aren't they?
Would you care to expand what your problem is with this goal? It doesnít seem to share much in common with the openly unscientific positions taken in the Republican platform.
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Old 15th November 2017, 11:41 AM   #165
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Here you cite failure to act on climate change as a sign of denial of reality:

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Here’s just one aspect where we are all denying reality.

Reality: Human activity is causing climate change that could have catastrophic effects for life as we know it at some point in the not too distant future.

Also Reality: Despite all the rhetoric, not enough humans are actually reducing the activities that lead to the problem -not nearly enough to stop climate change anyway. Way too little; too late.
Here you cite acting on climate change as a sign of denial of reality:

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
From the Dem site: "We are committed to getting 50 percent of our electricity from clean energy sources within a decade, with half a billion solar panels installed within four years and enough renewable energy to power every home in the country."

Political platforms are full of science and reality denial, aren't they?
You are struggling.
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Old 15th November 2017, 12:01 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Unlike the GOP, they don't set health policy.
Sure they do. Meet Tom Harkin D-IA. From the article:

Quote:
This is a very disturbing development. A horribly anti-science Republican administration has been replaced by a Democratic administration that promised to respect science. They also have a real mandate for health care reform. If this is how they are going to use their mandate, to give their imprimatur to cult medicine and to marginalize science-based medicine, we might have been better off with the devil we knew.
Even Obama was not well-informed on the science that has thoroughly debunked the vaccine-autism link. Bernie Sanders is well-known as a supporter of "integrative medicine." When you really look, you will find that many mainstream Democrats support integrative/alternative/functional/complementary/blah-blah-blah medicine are in a position to make and influence public policy.
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Old 15th November 2017, 12:10 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Here you cite failure to act on climate change as a sign of denial of reality:
Yes. The fact is that nobody actually wants to act in a way that will make a significant difference. We are not going to stop global warming/climate change. We can put solar panels on every home in America and that isn't going to stop anything. That's reality.

Quote:
Here you cite acting on climate change as a sign of denial of reality:
Not quite. Proposing practically unrealistic and politically unachievable and ultimately ineffective goals is not really acting. It's merely grandstanding to make it appear that, "gosh darn it, we are gonna do something!"
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Old 15th November 2017, 12:11 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Would you care to expand what your problem is with this goal? It doesnít seem to share much in common with the openly unscientific positions taken in the Republican platform.
It isn't going to stop global warming. IOW, it's just as effective as Republican inaction which is to say, not at all effective.
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Old 15th November 2017, 12:34 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
From the Dem site: "We are committed to getting 50 percent of our electricity from clean energy sources within a decade, with half a billion solar panels installed within four years and enough renewable energy to power every home in the country."

Political platforms are full of science and reality denial, aren't they?
See there is no denying reality in that, solar panels actually do generate energy there is no disconnect there. The issues are would that amount spent give the result and such but that is at a different level than climate denial. If the CBO says the actual plans wouldn't work then you have it. Of course at that level then all the repeal obamacare plans are denying reality as well.
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Old 15th November 2017, 03:49 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The trend for conservatives to reject science and fact based reasoning altogether appears to be a more recent phenomenon which is why I think it's got other causes.
Conservatives have a long history of rejecting science in favour of a received Natural Order. The question, perhaps, is why they stopped doing it for a few decades in the mid-20th Century.

At first glance, that miight well be down to the manifest triumphs of science in that period - flight, radio, antibiotics, TV, and even victory in WW2, for which superior science was given significant credit, not least through The Bomb. To be against science was to be against progress.

The down-side of progress (and by association science )- such as pollution and The Bomb - became manifest in the 70's and it's been open season on science since then.
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Last edited by CapelDodger; 15th November 2017 at 03:49 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 15th November 2017, 04:19 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It isn't going to stop global warming. IOW, it's just as effective as Republican inaction which is to say, not at all effective.
Global Warming denial staircase:-

1. It's actually cooling
2. Not happening
3. Happening, but not caused by humans
4. Partly caused by humans, but our contribution is insignificant
5. Partly caused by humans, but we don't know how much is our fault
6. Caused by humans, but mostly by China so we shouldn't have to do anything
7. Caused by us, but it's too late to do anything about it
8. Caused by us, but our attempts to fix it are ineffective
9. Caused by us, but too expensive to fix
10. Caused by us, we can fix it, but I don't want to pay for it!
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Old 15th November 2017, 04:37 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It isn't going to stop global warming. IOW, it's just as effective as Republican inaction which is to say, not at all effective.
We're not talking about effectiveness, we're talking about denial of reality. Republican failure is inevitable because they fliy in the face of reality. Democrat failure is not inevitable, despite your opinion that they are over-ambitious.
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Old 15th November 2017, 04:38 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Global Warming denial staircase:-

1. It's actually cooling
2. Not happening
3. Happening, but not caused by humans
4. Partly caused by humans, but our contribution is insignificant
5. Partly caused by humans, but we don't know how much is our fault
6. Caused by humans, but mostly by China so we shouldn't have to do anything
7. Caused by us, but it's too late to do anything about it
8. Caused by us, but our attempts to fix it are ineffective
9. Caused by us, but too expensive to fix
10. Caused by us, we can fix it, but I don't want to pay for it!
Topped-off by "No point now, it's too late."
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Old 15th November 2017, 05:25 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Global Warming denial staircase:-

1. It's actually cooling
2. Not happening
3. Happening, but not caused by humans
4. Partly caused by humans, but our contribution is insignificant
5. Partly caused by humans, but we don't know how much is our fault
6. Caused by humans, but mostly by China so we shouldn't have to do anything
7. Caused by us, but it's too late to do anything about it
8. Caused by us, but our attempts to fix it are ineffective
9. Caused by us, but too expensive to fix
10. Caused by us, we can fix it, but I don't want to pay for it!
Goodness. You didn't need to give him a shopping list!
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Old 15th November 2017, 05:31 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It isn't going to stop global warming. IOW, it's just as effective as Republican inaction which is to say, not at all effective.
Doing something is as effective as doing nothing?


what?
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Old 15th November 2017, 05:44 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Doing something is as effective as doing nothing?


what?
Sometimes doing something is even worse than doing nothing.
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Old 15th November 2017, 06:14 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Usually, the persons with the better intelligence has the upper hand; in this case, it is the person who uses the better intelligence instead of ignoring it.
Notably, companies are very aware of actual facts that can impact the bottom line, as is the military.
Politicians can often get away with fantasies because they only have to plan until the next election, not the next decade or century.

As exemplified by the coal companies busily edging their way out of the business of mining coal while spending their politics budget on politicians who promise to bring the coal industry back.

They get the short term benefit of support for relaxed environmental standards, and a cheap, complacent pool of out-of-work miners who refuse to take advantage of re-training opportunities.

When the industry inevitably collapses all the way they'll already have their money somewhere else.
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Old 15th November 2017, 06:58 PM   #178
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Why conservatives reject reality....

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
We're not talking about effectiveness, we're talking about denial of reality. Republican failure is inevitable because they fliy in the face of reality. Democrat failure is not inevitable, despite your opinion that they are over-ambitious.


Why arenít we talking about effectiveness ? What is the point in doing something when that something isnít going to result in a positive outcome.

Nurse: Doctor! The patient is bleeding out.
Doctor: Well, letís put a bandaid on it.
N: Why? That isnít going to stop the bleeding, you cut the artery!
D: Hey,! We are doing something arenít we?

That doctor is denying reality, no?
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:13 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Global Warming denial staircase:-



1. It's actually cooling

2. Not happening

3. Happening, but not caused by humans

4. Partly caused by humans, but our contribution is insignificant

5. Partly caused by humans, but we don't know how much is our fault

6. Caused by humans, but mostly by China so we shouldn't have to do anything

7. Caused by us, but it's too late to do anything about it

8. Caused by us, but our attempts to fix it are ineffective

9. Caused by us, but too expensive to fix

10. Caused by us, we can fix it, but I don't want to pay for it!


Now maybe you can illustrate the staircase for reality acceptors. Something tells me the last step will be: ďRealize that nobody actually wants to change enough in order to stop climate change; including me.Ē
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:26 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Why arenít we talking about effectiveness ? What is the point in doing something when that something isnít going to result in a positive outcome.

Nurse: Doctor! The patient is bleeding out.
Doctor: Well, letís put a bandaid on it.
N: Why? That isnít going to stop the bleeding, you cut the artery!
D: Hey,! We are doing something arenít we?

That doctor is denying reality, no?
What a moronic analogy.

Most people know you can't stop an arterial bleed with a band aid.

But the claim that you can't do anything about global warming so it's stupid to even try seems to be entirely your own.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:27 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sometimes doing something is even worse than doing nothing.
If it's the wrong thing, certainly.

*goes to get some mental bleach after agreeing with thepestige about something and comes back*

The question is what is the "right" thing?

In this case, switching (to the extent possible), from carbon-based to non-carbon/renewable energy would at a bare minimum qualify as "stop digging yourself deeper", which would be a good thing.

Then start work on remediation.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:27 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sometimes doing something is even worse than doing nothing.
Sometimes it's not.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:29 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Now maybe you can illustrate the staircase for reality acceptors. Something tells me the last step will be: ďRealize that nobody actually wants to change enough in order to stop climate change; including me.Ē
Nobody? No. Not enough people with the power to make real decisions and make them stick? The cynic in me says quite possible.
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Old 15th November 2017, 09:09 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What a moronic analogy.



Most people know you can't stop an arterial bleed with a band aid.
Yes, they do! And most people, at least those who are reality-focused, know that you canít stop global warming with a doomed-to-fail 4 year scheme to install half a billion solar panels.



Quote:
But the claim that you can't do anything about global warming so it's stupid to even try seems to be entirely your own.
Strawman Alert! I never said that we canít do anything, so itís stupid to try, only that 1)The things being proposed will not stop anything and 2)We, in general, arenít willing to do what it would actually take to stop warming.
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Old 15th November 2017, 09:17 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Nobody? No. Not enough people with the power to make real decisions and make them stick? The cynic in me says quite possible.
Thereís no need to wait for people in power to make decisions. If we all took it seriously and actually cared, weíd be doing it already. And sure some people are, but again, not nearly enough. We like things the way they are.
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Old 15th November 2017, 10:51 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sometimes doing something is even worse than doing nothing.
Maybe, but not in the case of global warming and removing energy dependence on the Middle East
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Old 16th November 2017, 01:31 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by xjx388
Now maybe you can illustrate the staircase for reality acceptors. Something tells me the last step will be: ďRealize that nobody actually wants to change enough in order to stop climate change; including me.Ē

We used to have waterways so polluted that rivers would catch fire.

Now we don't.

You arguments sound remarkably like the ones used to try to prevent the measures taken to achieve that.
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Old 16th November 2017, 01:40 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Why aren’t we talking about effectiveness ? What is the point in doing something when that something isn’t going to result in a positive outcome.

Nurse: Doctor! The patient is bleeding out.
Doctor: Well, let’s put a bandaid on it.
N: Why? That isn’t going to stop the bleeding, you cut the artery!
D: Hey,! We are doing something aren’t we?

That doctor is denying reality, no?
Given that the GOP alternative is to cut the artery more (increase fossil fuel usage) and applying the bandaid may not stop the bleeding but application of pressure may keep the patient alive long enough for effective treatment to be applied.

Of course the real difference is that the GOP is a doctor denying that the patient is even bleeding despite being ankle deep in blood.
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Old 16th November 2017, 01:46 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Thereís no need to wait for people in power to make decisions. If we all took it seriously and actually cared, weíd be doing it already. And sure some people are, but again, not nearly enough. We like things the way they are.
"People" are selfish, ignorant and dumb.

Someone throwing their toxic waste over into their neighbour's yard may be happy with the status quo, but their neighbour likely is not (and is probably pretty angry at you ruining his attempts to keep his yard safe). That same person may not be happy in a few months time when they find out that the toxic waste has poisoned their own water supply.

We may "like things the way they are" (though almost all developed countries apart from the US are taking steps and making efforts to reduce carbon emissions) but that may be because we are ignorant about the consequences.
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Old 16th November 2017, 01:57 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by xjx388
<snip>

Strawman Alert! I never said that we can’t do anything, so it’s stupid to try, only that 1)The things being proposed will not stop anything and 2)We, in general, aren’t willing to do what it would actually take to stop warming.
All of them? Nothing being proposed will work?

It seems that many of the claims made about the potentials of alternative energy sources which were so derided ten and twenty years ago are gradually coming to pass. The share of electrical generation being borne by such sources is already far beyond what the naysayers ever thought would be possible, and growing rapidly.

Coal powered plants need legislative protection to compete on a playing field which takes into account damaging effects like air pollution (and this isn't only about climate change). Electric cars are becoming more common every day, and renewable energy sources are perfectly positioned to use those as distributed storage. Fossil fuel energy production is already being replaced. It isn't a matter of claiming it can't be done anymore, because the facts clearly disprove that.

It is more a matter of how much effort we want to put into that replacement. and the only ones in a position to actually do anything to advance that kind of policy who are resistant to it are the ones facing a loss of short term profits.

The energy companies already know which way the wind is blowing (). They are moving their future focus into renewables.

Tesla is currently marketing roofing shingles which can generate enough (or more) power to supply a home and a storage device to keep supply constant for in most cases a considerable net savings. What if those systems and ones like them were to become the standard for new housing? (Or even new roofs?)

It isn't that there are no feasible alternatives to the mindless dumping of pollutants into the atmosphere, and trying to cherry-pick alternatives which aren't immediately as successful in an effort to prove differently isn't going to fool anyone who is actually paying attention to the facts and to the progress we have made and continue to make.
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Old 16th November 2017, 02:02 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
<snip>

We may "like things the way they are" (though almost all developed countries apart from the US are taking steps and making efforts to reduce carbon emissions) but that may be because we are ignorant don't care about the consequences.

FTFY.
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Old 16th November 2017, 02:08 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
FTFY.
Quite possibly, but the real "scientific denial" in the GOP IMO is that they deny that global warming is happening so as far as they are concerned, there are no consequences of continued fossil fuel usage.

The argument that xjx388 is making at the moment, that attempting to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by increased use of renewables is futile, IMO misses the point. The GOP aren't saying that such measures are ineffective (and a debate can be had about that) but that there's no problem which requires these measures to be taken.
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Old 16th November 2017, 02:25 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Quite possibly, but the real "scientific denial" in the GOP IMO is that they deny that global warming is happening so as far as they are concerned, there are no consequences of continued fossil fuel usage.

The argument that xjx388 is making at the moment, that attempting to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by increased use of renewables is futile, IMO misses the point. The GOP aren't saying that such measures are ineffective (and a debate can be had about that) but that there's no problem which requires these measures to be taken.

True.

By way of example, North Carolina passed a law to "ban the state from basing coastal policies on the latest scientific predictions of how much the sea level will rise" after their Coastal Planning Commission came up with a projected sea level rise number that disturbed the developers of coastal property.
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Old 16th November 2017, 02:37 AM   #194
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Let me just add that lowering greenhouse emissions does work to combat climate change. It's too late to prevent it, but we can still mitigate the effects. That someone would deny this is possibly even more stupid than simply saying climate change doesn't exist.
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Old 16th November 2017, 02:45 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That's not what I'm saying. You (as in most people in our society) desire to have transportation, for example. We want to drive to work or the store (even when it's around the block!) or fly to a meeting/vacation. That transportation, for the most part, burns fossil fuels and the vehicles are constructed out of natural resources that also burn fossil fuels and fossil fuels are burned during their manufacture. Planes, trains and automobiles are a huge source of CO2 emissions. That is reality. If we accept the reality of global warming, then how can any of us use these forms of transportation? We are either 1)Justifying it somehow or 2)Denying the problem. We do that because we desire and value convenient transportation.
That has nothing to do with whether or not burning fossil fuels is a cause of global warming. That causality is independent of our preferences and desires, as well as our morals. You also referred to evolution. You may desire it not to happen, but it does, whatever our morality or wishes may dictate.
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Seems to me that you are rejecting a bit of reality there yourself. A smoker heavily impacts the lives of others. Start with their families and the health problems their children will develop and the likelihood of the children smoking later in life. Think of the economic impact of productivity lost to heart disease, lung cancer, etc. But most of all, consider the impacts in a system where healthcare is "universal." In Medicare, for example, billions are spent keeping current/former smokers alive. That's reality too. We could just accept reality and let them die and save all that money, couldn't we? They made the choice to take up a habit (rejecting reality in the process) that would likely cause illness and death so why does my tax money have to go towards their care? Because we value their lives and desire to extend them as long as we can; we consider it immoral to let someone die when we can stop it. So we justify this blatant rejection of reality.
I don't follow how giving smokers medical treatment is a rejection of reality. I have already related how smokers have a right to behave irrationally, but have no moral right to impose their behaviour on others; so in this country smoking is permitted, but not in enclosed public places. But what has that to do with physical reality? It is a policy, not a theory about reality, and I think it is correct.
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When people say conservatives reject reality, that is undeniably true. That just makes them human like everyone else -their view of reality is skewed by desires, values and morals.
Trump said that AGW is a Chinese hoax intended to inflict costs on US industry. Is that true or not? Trump's "morals" certainly explain why he said it, but the question is whether AGW is real or a hoax, and Trump's morals have absolutely nothing to do with that.

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Old 16th November 2017, 03:58 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Why arenít we talking about effectiveness ? What is the point in doing something when that something isnít going to result in a positive outcome.

Nurse: Doctor! The patient is bleeding out.
Doctor: Well, letís put a bandaid on it.
N: Why? That isnít going to stop the bleeding, you cut the artery!
D: Hey,! We are doing something arenít we?

That doctor is denying reality, no?
No it is more like this

Nurse: Doctor! The patient is bleeding out
Doctor: Nurse you are forbidden from discussing any bleeding the patient is doing!
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Old 16th November 2017, 05:30 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
True.

By way of example, North Carolina passed a law to "ban the state from basing coastal policies on the latest scientific predictions of how much the sea level will rise" after their Coastal Planning Commission came up with a projected sea level rise number that disturbed the developers of coastal property.
And the insurance companies, if they're wise enough to not reject the science, should not offer flood damage coverage except at suitably high premiums. And make that widely and unequivocally known.
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Old 16th November 2017, 05:34 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
And the insurance companies, if they're wise enough to not reject the science, should not offer flood damage coverage except at suitably high premiums. And make that widely and unequivocally known.
Insurance companies don't cover flood insurance, that is a federal program.
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Old 16th November 2017, 06:18 AM   #199
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Because science is wrong! They were wrong about fats being bad for you so they must be wrong about everything else.
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Old 16th November 2017, 06:42 AM   #200
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Tide comes in, tide goes out, your science can not explain that!!!!!!
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