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Old 17th November 2017, 09:37 PM   #241
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
<snip>

And while it's true that a higher proportion of fundamentalist christians tend to be conservative in view... It's not exactly a hard-and-fast rule. There are lots of fundamentalists in the liberal spectrum. You also end up with some unusual intersections - fundamentalist Jews and Muslims are somewhat more likely to lean to the Democrats than to the Republicans... which in the US tends to mean that they're more associated with a liberal view than a conservative one. You also end up with some very fundamentalist black evangelicals being significantly more likely to be Democrats than Republicans.

I note a common theme in the examples you mention here that probably carries more weight than their nominal religious affiliations. They are all minority groups which conservatives and Republicans are often more than eager to use as scapegoats in their hate-fests whenever they think they can get away with it.

Makes party choices a little easier when one of them likes to use your race or ethnicity as a target.
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Old 18th November 2017, 05:36 PM   #242
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[quote=xjx388;12079574]Yes. My overarching point is that conservatives do deny reality because they are human and all humans deny reality. Speak for yourself, and your own unfortunate experience of the human race. We know that many conservatives deny reality because they do it so regularly and unashamedly in person. There's no need to generalise.

[quote]Your overarching intent is to manufacture an example of "liberals doing it too", which boils down to the argument that adopting any but the most fantastical and impracticable policy on AGW is a denial of reality
Quote:
The democrat/climate change stuff was an illustration of that.



If they aren't meant to solve global warming, then what are they meant to do?
Contribute to the solution. [quote]Make us feel like we are doing something when, clearly, we aren't doing anywhere near enough and certainly not fast enough? It would be doing something. The sooner we do stuff - and we have started - the more we slow the process and delay the point of undeniable failure. You deny the reality of that in your increasingly febrile pursuit of "liberals doing it too".


[quote]The whole point is that it's reality-denial to say that we can implement these kinds of slow changes and then claim that we are "combating global warming," when global warming will continue unabated under such proposals. They would not continue unabated, they would be abated by the contribution of all that extra solar generation over the twenty-odd years of its lifetime - and probably more for the supporting infrastructure. That is combating AGW.
Quote:
Nobody wants to face the actual reality that we need to make drastic, drastic cuts to our emissions AND rapidly develop and implement carbon sequestration technologies AND remake the way we feed ourselves AND . . . certainly not either one of our political parties because the People of the US have their blinders on and such drastic changes are not politically viable.
It's not "putting blinders on " not to adopt unviable political positions. That's simply recognising reality. The Green Party is clearly your natural home, and they didn't beat Trump either. Some here may remember my contribution to the AGW debate way back, and can confirm that I was an early adopter of the "we're screwed" position. I don't expect to "cure" AGW, but I'm determined not to be left speeechless if the younger generation points a finger at me and asks "What did you do?"
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Old 18th November 2017, 06:08 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I note a common theme in the examples you mention here that probably carries more weight than their nominal religious affiliations. They are all minority groups which conservatives and Republicans are often more than eager to use as scapegoats in their hate-fests whenever they think they can get away with it.

Makes party choices a little easier when one of them likes to use your race or ethnicity as a target.
I strongly doubt the premise myself. Do any religiously driven types favour the godless socialists of the Democratic Party over the far-from-godless Republicans? Some Democrats are self-proclaimed atheists. The great divide, of course, is not between religions but between religion and irreligion. Look behind apparently religious antagonism and you'll soon find its true political and economic roots.
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Old 18th November 2017, 06:41 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
And while it's true that a higher proportion of fundamentalist christians tend to be conservative in view... It's not exactly a hard-and-fast rule. There are lots of fundamentalists in the liberal spectrum.
"The liberal spectrum". Sounds impressive, but signifies nothing, or anything you want. Do you want NewAgers to be on the liberal spectrum? Or the conservative spectrum?
Quote:
You also end up with some unusual intersections - fundamentalist Jews and Muslims are somewhat more likely to lean to the Democrats than to the Republicans...
You haven't met many of either, I'm guessing (but not,I think, wildly
Quote:
which in the US tends to mean that they're more associated with a liberal view than a conservative one.
So not so much unsual as incredible. You are guessing,wildly aren't you?
Quote:
You also end up with some very fundamentalist black evangelicals being significantly more likely to be Democrats than Republicans.
And very thin on the ground.
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Old 18th November 2017, 07:43 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I make this as "feel-good symbolism."

You are wrong. There is already a disaster. We have a problem right now and even if we were to cut all emissions today, the problem would still exist for quite some time; i.e. committed warming.
We should just give up, then?
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Old 19th November 2017, 12:17 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Grey2000 View Post
Aromatherapy, Homeopathy, "Identifying", Transcendental Meditation, Hypnotism, Seances, Acupuncture, Reflexology.

I'd say that there's a fair few liberals who reject reality too.
I agree that there are liberals that believe this kind of nonsense. However, it seems to me that conservatives believe in this same nonsense. I think it was conservatives that allow this alt-med stuff become mainstream.
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Old 19th November 2017, 01:08 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I agree that there are liberals that believe this kind of nonsense. However, it seems to me that conservatives believe in this same nonsense. I think it was conservatives that allow this alt-med stuff become mainstream.

Of course they did. There's easy money in it.

Bypass all that pesky government regulation. It's right up their alley.
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Old 19th November 2017, 10:31 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I agree that there are liberals that believe this kind of nonsense. However, it seems to me that conservatives believe in this same nonsense. I think it was conservatives that allow this alt-med stuff become mainstream.
I'm not convinced that New Agers should be lumped in with liberals. Their worldview strikes me as conservative, with its strong sense of a Natural Order which the modern world is disturbing.
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Old 19th November 2017, 10:36 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Of course they did. There's easy money in it.

Bypass all that pesky government regulation. It's right up their alley.
It's cheap, and they can pretend it's health care. The secret is to not monitor outcomes.
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Old 20th November 2017, 07:18 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Predominantly Liberal:
  1. Anti GMO
  2. Anti Vax
  3. Anti nuclear power
  4. Naturopathy, homeopathy, etc....
Can you show that people who think these things are predominantly liberal?

Even if you can show they are predominantly liberal who cares? The issue here whether these are part of the mainstream political agenda, and they most certainly are not. In fact, I seem to recall a Republican candidate suggestion doing away with the DOE and all the nuclear research it does. Nuclear is the biggest of big government energy solutions, it’s at odds with most other Conservative mantras. This type of inconsistency is an example of the unreality that exists on the right.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
  1. Effectiveness of welfare economies
Treating this one separately because the belief that “Welfare economics” is a real thing is itself an example of conservatives departing from reality. Economists vote Democrat over Republican by a 2.5:1 margin because the Republican mainstream is frequently out to lunch on economics. Eg gold-bugs and the whole “audit the fed” thing have far greater influence in Republican circles than any of the “liberal anti-science stances” you mentioned above.
For the most part even the parts of the Republican party that is not completely out to lunch on economics are stuck in undergraduate mode where free market theory is studied using idealized models. As you move towards practical real word real world economic issues economists lean democrats.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Predominantly Conservative:
  1. Anti-Evolution (including YEC)
  2. Anti-Climate Change (including human contribution to)
  3. Performance of trickle-down economics
  4. Female reproductive rights (including abortion and abstinence only education)
  5. Barack Obama's birthplace
Add:
Gold Bugs
Anti-central bank
Tax policy/Budget deficits
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Old 20th November 2017, 07:43 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Okay, yes, math is completely objective. The problem with your premise is that models are not completely objective. Models depend on assumptions, and assumptions are not necessarily objective. I've seen many mathematical models that produce false results - not because the math was wrong, but becuase the assumptions were biased by the belief of the modeler.

There's a very solid reason for Twain;s quote: There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.
There are physical models and statistical models, and climate models are the former. The only assumptions built into them are how much CO2 we’ll emit. Other parameters are set based on real, physical observable phenomenon. Climate models one of multiple lines of evidence as to how much and how quickly the earth will warm and the other lines of evidence agree with the climate model results.

Also worth noting that Global Warming itself is very basic physics. They get more complicated when you want to precisely know how much warming there will be.
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Old 20th November 2017, 07:44 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Can you show that people who think these things are predominantly liberal?

Even if you can show they are predominantly liberal who cares? The issue here whether these are part of the mainstream political agenda, and they most certainly are not. In fact, I seem to recall a Republican candidate suggestion doing away with the DOE and all the nuclear research it does. Nuclear is the biggest of big government energy solutions, it’s at odds with most other Conservative mantras. This type of inconsistency is an example of the unreality that exists on the right.
Admittedly the candidate in question had no idea that the DOE had anything to do with nuclear power and nuclear weapons. And as for who protects the supplement industry that is firmly bipartisan.

Quote:
Treating this one separately because the belief that “Welfare economics” is a real thing is itself an example of conservatives departing from reality. Economists vote Democrat over Republican by a 2.5:1 margin because the Republican mainstream is frequently out to lunch on economics. Eg gold-bugs and the whole “audit the fed” thing have far greater influence in Republican circles than any of the “liberal anti-science stances” you mentioned above.
I was confused by what actual claims with regards to policy was involved with this "welfare economics". That it is good for people who be able to eat?
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Old 20th November 2017, 08:35 AM   #253
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I'd challenge the notion that Gold bugs and anti-central banking are mainstream republican ideas.

I'm also curious what is meant my "welfare economics" in context.

Also, I'd like evidence for the notion that economists vote Dem by a 2.5:1 margin. Though that is specific enough to ring true.
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Old 20th November 2017, 09:39 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'd challenge the notion that Gold bugs and anti-central banking are mainstream republican ideas.
Returning to the gold standard is legitimately debated in the Republican Primaries with support from leading candidates

http://www.latimes.com/business/hilt...29-column.html


The Republican controlled House of Representatives has passed multiple “audit the fed” bills only to be blocked by the Senate primary because of Democrat opposition.
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/31...-gets-new-push


What these laws would actually do:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/ben-b...iting-the-fed/

Quote:
So what does Audit the Fed actually do? The principal effect of the bill would be to make meeting-by-meeting monetary policy decisions subject to Congressional review and, potentially, Congressional pressure.





Originally Posted by ahhell View Post

Also, I'd like evidence for the notion that economists vote Dem by a 2.5:1 margin. Though that is specific enough to ring true.
Survey from 2003 shows economists vote democrat by 2.5:1 margin
http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/klein/Pdf...S_PublCh06.pdf

Similar numbers from 2010
https://econjwatch.org/file_download...f?mimetype=pdf
70% of economists polled in the last election supported Clinton
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors.../#c847a0a3fba2
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Old 20th November 2017, 08:45 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post


Survey from 2003 shows economists vote democrat by 2.5:1 margin
http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/klein/Pdf...S_PublCh06.pdf

Similar numbers from 2010
https://econjwatch.org/file_download...f?mimetype=pdf
70% of economists polled in the last election supported Clinton
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors.../#c847a0a3fba2
Well that's only because more educated people tend to be liberal, so there!
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Old 21st November 2017, 09:26 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Well, no kidding. But the suggestions at hand are not worse than nothing. They're somewhat better than nothing, far as we can judge.
Not for the stated goal they're not. And they come at an opportunity cost, which needs to be factored in.
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:24 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I strongly doubt the premise myself. Do any religiously driven types favour the godless socialists of the Democratic Party over the far-from-godless Republicans? Some Democrats are self-proclaimed atheists. The great divide, of course, is not between religions but between religion and irreligion. Look behind apparently religious antagonism and you'll soon find its true political and economic roots.
What are you on about? I gave some specific examples of religious groups that would normally be considered quite strongly religious (as opposed to the get-along-with-everyone sects like lutherans) that tend to lean Democrat. Are you "doubting" just because you don't like it and it doesn't conform to your worldview?
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:26 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
"The liberal spectrum". Sounds impressive, but signifies nothing, or anything you want. Do you want NewAgers to be on the liberal spectrum? Or the conservative spectrum?You haven't met many of either, I'm guessing (but not,I think, wildlySo not so much unsual as incredible. You are guessing,wildly aren't you?And very thin on the ground.
Okay, yes. You ARE "doubting" because it doesn't conform to your worldview. I suppose that's nice to know. You're busy casting aspersions at me for no good reason except that you don't like it. Try looking something up instead of trying to cast doubt from your position of know-nothing-ism.
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Old 21st November 2017, 04:03 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I agree that there are liberals that believe this kind of nonsense. However, it seems to me that conservatives believe in this same nonsense. I think it was conservatives that allow this alt-med stuff become mainstream.
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Of course they did. There's easy money in it.

Bypass all that pesky government regulation. It's right up their alley.
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I'm not convinced that New Agers should be lumped in with liberals. Their worldview strikes me as conservative, with its strong sense of a Natural Order which the modern world is disturbing.
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
It's cheap, and they can pretend it's health care. The secret is to not monitor outcomes.
"No True Liberal"

This is fun - so you're going to consider them conservatives, rather than liberals, because... it's dumb things? I honestly don't know anyone in the real world that would so casually characterize die-hard mother-earth-loving hippies as "conservatives".
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:20 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
"No True Liberal"

This is fun - so you're going to consider them conservatives, rather than liberals, because... it's dumb things? I honestly don't know anyone in the real world that would so casually characterize die-hard mother-earth-loving hippies as "conservatives".
No, of course there is also issues with if they actually effect policy like the antisex conservatives who happily increase HIV transmissions rates like Mike Pence. He had a really successful program to increase HIV in his state, a real win for the republican party.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 05:37 AM   #261
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Old 22nd November 2017, 06:08 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What are you on about? I gave some specific examples of religious groups that would normally be considered quite strongly religious (as opposed to the get-along-with-everyone sects like lutherans) that tend to lean Democrat. Are you "doubting" just because you don't like it and it doesn't conform to your worldview?
I'm doubting your assertion (for it is no more than that) that ultra-orthodox Jews and Muslims "tend to lean Democrat." Do you have evidence for that? On the face of it it seems unlikely.

ETA : you seem poorly informed on Luther's easy-going attitude.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 06:16 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I'm doubting your assertion (for it is no more than that) that ultra-orthodox Jews and Muslims "tend to lean Democrat." Do you have evidence for that? On the face of it it seems unlikely.

ETA : you seem poorly informed on Luther's easy-going attitude.
http://forward.com/news/354129/map-h...ish-landslide/

Seems like the ultra orthodox can get behind the hatred of hispanics and blacks enough go with trump
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Old 22nd November 2017, 06:23 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
"No True Liberal"

This is fun - so you're going to consider them conservatives, rather than liberals, because... it's dumb things? I honestly don't know anyone in the real world that would so casually characterize die-hard mother-earth-loving hippies as "conservatives".
Politicians who have legitimised acupuncture and the like as actual healthcare are almost entirely conservative. And what could be a more conservative principle than loving, respecting and caring for one's mother?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 06:30 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
http://forward.com/news/354129/map-h...ish-landslide/

Seems like the ultra orthodox can get behind the hatred of hispanics and blacks enough go with trump
You call that evidence? I do, and it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 06:51 AM   #266
phiwum
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Politicians who have legitimised acupuncture and the like as actual healthcare are almost entirely conservative. And what could be a more conservative principle than loving, respecting and caring for one's mother?
Have you some citations to back this up?

In the US, at least, I associate both alternative medicine and New Age thinking with liberal views. I couldn't find an online citation showing that this association is correct. However, I did find that Tom Harkin, a Democratic Senator, was influential in creating the Office of Alternative Medicine (now NCCAM).
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Old 22nd November 2017, 07:11 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Have you some citations to back this up?

In the US, at least, I associate both alternative medicine and New Age thinking with liberal views. I couldn't find an online citation showing that this association is correct. However, I did find that Tom Harkin, a Democratic Senator, was influential in creating the Office of Alternative Medicine (now NCCAM).
And Orrin Hatch was vital to keeping supplements unregulated

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/06/o...pplements.html
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Old 22nd November 2017, 07:18 AM   #268
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Have you some citations to back this up?
Sadly, no, I was winging it on memory and local experience. Over here it's mostly a Tory and Daily Mail kind of thing. Oh, and Batty Prince Charlie as an exception.

Quote:
In the US, at least, I associate both alternative medicine and New Age thinking with liberal views. I couldn't find an online citation showing that this association is correct. However, I did find that Tom Harkin, a Democratic Senator, was influential in creating the Office of Alternative Medicine (now NCCAM).
Which doesn't seem such a bad idea to me.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 07:38 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Sadly, no, I was winging it on memory and local experience. Over here it's mostly a Tory and Daily Mail kind of thing. Oh, and Batty Prince Charlie as an exception.


Which doesn't seem such a bad idea to me.
Sure, $2.5 billion producing study after study that show no effects of CAM (aside from placebo). Harkin complained that the office was too focused on disproving effectiveness and should try instead to verify efffectiveness. Recently, they changed the name again and now require that the majority of board members be leaders in alternative medicine.

(All summarized at WP.)
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Old 22nd November 2017, 07:44 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Have you some citations to back this up?

In the US, at least, I associate both alternative medicine and New Age thinking with liberal views. I couldn't find an online citation showing that this association is correct. However, I did find that Tom Harkin, a Democratic Senator, was influential in creating the Office of Alternative Medicine (now NCCAM).
That’s the real problem with ascribing these beliefs as “liberal”
- There is no data about who these people actually support politically
- There is no real kowtowing to them from either party.

These groups are a red-herring even if they do conform to perceptions because they are a non-factor politically.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 08:18 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
That’s the real problem with ascribing these beliefs as “liberal”
- There is no data about who these people actually support politically
- There is no real kowtowing to them from either party.

These groups are a red-herring even if they do conform to perceptions because they are a non-factor politically.
I'd wager there's a correlation between CAM and New Age beliefs and liberal political views. That's all I'm saying, but you're right, at this point, I have no hard data.

There is this article showing that Dems are more likely to believe in ghosts, talking with the dead, etc., than Republicans. Not necessarily New Age and certainly not CAM, but it shows that a certain kind of nonsense believe is associated with being a Democrat.

This is not the same as the fact that Republicans tend to dismiss many plain facts as "fake news" and are encouraged by their leaders to distrust reliable media sources.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 08:34 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Sure, $2.5 billion producing study after study that show no effects of CAM (aside from placebo). Harkin complained that the office was too focused on disproving effectiveness and should try instead to verify efffectiveness. Recently, they changed the name again and now require that the majority of board members be leaders in alternative medicine.
The proof will be in the research and the researchers. Things seem to have worked out so far given the negative results.

2.5bn in 26 years doesn't sound disastrous to me, and it has provided ammunition for the anti-alt-med camp.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 08:45 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post

There is this article showing that Dems are more likely to believe in ghosts, talking with the dead, etc., than Republicans. Not necessarily New Age and certainly not CAM, but it shows that a certain kind of nonsense believe is associated with being a Democrat.
It could just be that Republicans are more likely to conform to orthodox religious beliefs that are odds with such things.

Liberal is different than not-conservative. Democrat is different than not-Republican. You need to go back to the positions the party mainstream and party leadership hold. “There are people who reject reality that may not vote Republican” is not equivalent in any way to the systematic rejection of facts, science and reality the Republican party has been moving towards.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 08:49 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You've also attributed Anti-GMO and ANti-Vax to both sides, although there seems to be a much larger proportion of both on the liberal side than the conservative side.
Just a few years ago I'd have agreed with this statement. Since then, I've become aware of a pretty significant anti-vax trend on the right as well. Some polling indicates that attitudes about the benefits and risks of vaccines are pretty similar between the parties. Same again for GMOs.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 08:59 AM   #275
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The elephant in the room here is California.

In my fairly extensive experience hippies are very tolerant, accepting people, which is a liberal trait to my mind. When it comes to politics the ones 'Ive known have been Green Party since way back. In fact, Way back, some of them were the Green Party.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 09:16 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Just a few years ago I'd have agreed with this statement. Since then, I've become aware of a pretty significant anti-vax trend on the right as well. Some polling indicates that attitudes about the benefits and risks of vaccines are pretty similar between the parties. Same again for GMOs.
In regards to vaccines, there is (or at least was) major outcry from conservative politicians regarding the HPV vaccine.

Is there a liberal equivalent to that?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 09:57 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
In regards to vaccines, there is (or at least was) major outcry from conservative politicians regarding the HPV vaccine.

Is there a liberal equivalent to that?
Not really equivalent though. Vaccines (in general) are thought to cause autism or the like, which is strictly anti-science.

The outcry against the HPV vaccine was because of morals 'It'll encourage our kids to have the sex!' Less of a 'it won't work' and more of a 'we don't like it'.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 10:31 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
Not really equivalent though. Vaccines (in general) are thought to cause autism or the like, which is strictly anti-science.

The outcry against the HPV vaccine was because of morals 'It'll encourage our kids to have the sex!' Less of a 'it won't work' and more of a 'we don't like it'.
Also anti-science…
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Old 22nd November 2017, 10:34 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The proof will be in the research and the researchers. Things seem to have worked out so far given the negative results.

2.5bn in 26 years doesn't sound disastrous to me, and it has provided ammunition for the anti-alt-med camp.

You missed the last bit, where because of the negative results, the board makeup has a majority of alt med "professionals".

This is a waste of taxpayer money. Maybe a few studies with negative results are reasonably taxpayer-funded, but it's time to stop before spending $2.5 billion.

This is a boondoggle, born of a Democratic senator's gullibility when it comes to alt-med. He buys quackery. It really is as simple as that, and I think that you defend him too much when you say it's not a problem. The Trump administration's panel investigating voter fraud is a waste of taxpayer money based on a belief with no evidence, and so is this. This is less politically motivated, granted, but otherwise similar.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 10:35 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It could just be that Republicans are more likely to conform to orthodox religious beliefs that are odds with such things.

Liberal is different than not-conservative. Democrat is different than not-Republican. You need to go back to the positions the party mainstream and party leadership hold. “There are people who reject reality that may not vote Republican” is not equivalent in any way to the systematic rejection of facts, science and reality the Republican party has been moving towards.
That's a reasonable point.
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