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Old 22nd November 2017, 11:32 AM   #281
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You missed the last bit, where because of the negative results, the board makeup has a majority of alt med "professionals".
Presumanly they influence what reseacrh is done on , but not the research itself. One would hope not, anyway.

Quote:
This is a waste of taxpayer money. Maybe a few studies with negative results are reasonably taxpayer-funded, but it's time to stop before spending $2.5 billion.
You think you're done and along comes another -ology that needs sguashing.

Quote:
This is a boondoggle, born of a Democratic senator's gullibility when it comes to alt-med. He buys quackery. It really is as simple as that, and I think that you defend him too much when you say it's not a problem. The Trump administration's panel investigating voter fraud is a waste of taxpayer money based on a belief with no evidence, and so is this. This is less politically motivated, granted, but otherwise similar.
Without such research there's no evidence at all to argue from. Instead there are accusations that scientists are afraid to even consider these ideas. The consistently negative results suggest the research is pretty honest, and who else is going to fund it?

That's my 2 cents on that spent.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 09:06 PM   #282
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Why conservatives reject reality?

They don't.

...

Oh wait...
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Old 23rd November 2017, 12:11 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Why conservatives reject reality?

They don't.

...

Oh wait...
Everyone rejects "reality" when it suits them.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 12:24 PM   #284
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Yeah but why do conservatives do it?
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Old 23rd November 2017, 12:36 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah but why do conservatives do it?

Generally because they see a profit in it. Short term returns beat reality every time.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 12:40 PM   #286
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Pretty sure Trump and the alt-right have anti-vaxxer views, especially where the vaccines are required by law for school kids.

Time Magazine: Why Donald Trump's Choice of RFK Jr. as Vaccine Czar Is a Terrible Idea

NYT: How the Far Right Came to Love Hippie Food
Quote:
But what’s less well known and somewhat surprising is how that same food ethic drifted over into the paranoid world of the far right, where no truth is self-evident and the apocalypse is always imminent. At the dark confluence of hippie and Hitler, you can buy a year’s supply of earth-friendly quinoa.

What’s sad, and indicative of the wretched Trump era, is how something that started in a wave of hope and optimism migrated to closed-minded, mercenary quarters.

Continue reading the main story
You can trace a bit of this transition to John Mackey, the Texas co-founder of Whole Foods. A libertarian and admirer of Ayn Rand, he once lived in a vegetarian collective. “I thought I’d meet a lot of interesting women,” he told The New Yorker. “And I did.”
Makes me want to not shop at Whole Foods.

Alex Jones:
Quote:
So, in between rants about how Ku Klux Klan members are “just Jewish actors,” the Infowars conspiracy theorist Alex Jones sells an exhaustive line of strange food. His market is “preppers,” people who’ve been preparing for the End, for some time.

Jones’s website urges fellow knuckle-draggers to “secure your food independence” with his organic-sounding Patriot Pantry. From “fluoride-free mouthwash” — the better to secure precious bodily fluids, one assumes — to “strawberry fields cream of wheat,” he assures his followers that his “non-GMO meals have a 25-year shelf life.” Plus, no added MSG!
Glenn Beck:
Quote:
Over at The Blaze, Glenn Beck’s soft-rock version of the hard right, a targeted demographic is the grumpy Trump supporter who wants to Grow Your Own. The site’s story diet is heavy on the threat of transgender kindergartners. But with food, Beck is closer to that co-op I visited.

One of Beck’s sponsors promotes “better ideas for off-the-grid living.” Another offers “next level gardening with a geodesic green house.” These items would have fit, years ago, into the Whole Earth Catalog, a must-read for the no-deodorant set.
I do buy the stereotypes of left and right nuttiness, but one has to be careful to talk as if one group owns the myth.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 01:00 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Pretty sure Trump and the alt-right have anti-vaxxer views, especially where the vaccines are required by law for school kids.

Time Magazine: Why Donald Trump's Choice of RFK Jr. as Vaccine Czar Is a Terrible Idea

NYT: How the Far Right Came to Love Hippie FoodMakes me want to not shop at Whole Foods.

Alex Jones:

Glenn Beck:

I do buy the stereotypes of left and right nuttiness, but one has to be careful to talk as if one group owns the myth.
Well, there was at least one very famous Nazi who was allegedly a vegetarian.
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Old 26th November 2017, 04:34 PM   #288
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Throwing in Roy Moore:

Evangelicals and Roy Moore

I think there are two things ”forcing” them to vote for hypocrites.

1 the Jesus abortion etc thing
2 they think nearly all the government does is aimed at helping liberals
”I didn’t get anything from Obama”
even though the entire rural area survives on farm subsidies
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Old 27th November 2017, 01:17 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
”I didn’t get anything from Obama”
even though the entire rural area survives on farm subsidies
Ah, but you see a subsidy is something the farm has earned through their hard work whereas any welfare or subsidy for which the farm is not eligible is a handout to lazy wasters.
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:30 PM   #290
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More evidence that "conservatives" (a far cry from responsible American conservatives) are delusional:
Quote:
If you’re a Republican voter, I have some bad news for you. The people who lead the movement that supposedly represents your views — the politicians, the media figures, the activists — think you’re an idiot. In fact, they count on it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.72000e43346c

And a link from the above:
https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-long-con
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Old 28th November 2017, 10:22 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
More evidence that "conservatives" (a far cry from responsible American conservatives) are delusional:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.72000e43346c

And a link from the above:
https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-long-con
Republican voters seem to have ego and self-esteem issues. It's like they're in an abusive relationship. What self-respecting person excuses such insultingly bad lies straight at them, let alone lauds them?
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Old 28th November 2017, 10:34 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Ah, but you see a subsidy is something the farm has earned through their hard work whereas any welfare or subsidy for which the farm is not eligible is a handout to lazy wasters.
Not just true, but why I write as I do about the flyovers where that crap is ingrained!!!!!!
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Old 28th November 2017, 10:39 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Republican voters seem to have ego and self-esteem issues. It's like they're in an abusive relationship. What self-respecting person excuses such insultingly bad lies straight at them, let alone lauds them?
republickers do that **** constantly, incompetent and vile tools of the "Republican" party. Which, as I rarely fail to note' lost the right to Republican Party when they bonded with the religious nuts and far right ******** that are working so hard to wreck the country.
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Old 28th November 2017, 10:50 PM   #294
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Learned Helplessness is at the core of current conservative behavior.
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Old 29th November 2017, 05:37 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
republickers do that **** constantly, incompetent and vile tools of the "Republican" party. Which, as I rarely fail to note' lost the right to Republican Party when they bonded with the religious nuts and far right ******** that are working so hard to wreck the country.
Can we - in honor of the actual GOP - call the modern iteration of the same something else to distinguish it from what it used to be? Maybe the Trumplican party? The Trumpist party?
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:25 AM   #296
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I've thought of a way in which a large number of progressives truly reject reality.

The persist in the notion that conservatives and republicans are some sort of cohesive group with a clear ideology and agenda. There's lots of talk about how in the current climate on sexual misconduct, Reps and Cons are rallying around folks like Roy Moore where Dems and libs are "eating their own" This sort of talk has been common among most of my progressive associates for a decade or so and presists despite the facts that the Reps have a president the leadership doesn't want and can't pass any legislation despite having control of both houses of congress.

The GOP is clearly more fractious than the Dems. The GOP has three or four different interest groups with often diametrically opposed ideologies(The old guard are all about free trade, Trump's coalition are all about protectionism), at most the Dems have two that only disagree in degree.
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:34 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I've thought of a way in which a large number of progressives truly reject reality.

The persist in the notion that conservatives and republicans are some sort of cohesive group with a clear ideology and agenda. There's lots of talk about how in the current climate on sexual misconduct, Reps and Cons are rallying around folks like Roy Moore where Dems and libs are "eating their own" This sort of talk has been common among most of my progressive associates for a decade or so and presists despite the facts that the Reps have a president the leadership doesn't want and can't pass any legislation despite having control of both houses of congress.

The GOP is clearly more fractious than the Dems. The GOP has three or four different interest groups with often diametrically opposed ideologies(The old guard are all about free trade, Trump's coalition are all about protectionism), at most the Dems have two that only disagree in degree.
.....and yet despite this, the Obamacare legislation made it through the House and it was only a couple of senators on the way out of the door that scuppered it. The Tax legislation looks like it will sail through, despite the legions of alleged deficit hawks that are supposed to be out there.
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:38 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
.....and yet despite this, the Obamacare legislation made it through the House and it was only a couple of senators on the way out of the door that scuppered it. The Tax legislation looks like it will sail through, despite the legions of alleged deficit hawks that are supposed to be out there.
I feel like you've just proved my point by listing the thing the GOP has been flogging for 7 years that failed and something that hasn't passed yet.

The only thing that conservatives and Reps agree on, they don't like Dems and libs.
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:49 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I feel like you've just proved my point by listing the thing the GOP has been flogging for 7 years that failed and something that hasn't passed yet.

The only thing that conservatives and Reps agree on, they don't like Dems and libs.
And that they are more willing to stand with nazis and sex offenders than dems and libs.
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:50 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I feel like you've just proved my point by listing the thing the GOP has been flogging for 7 years that failed and something that hasn't passed yet.

The only thing that conservatives and Reps agree on, they don't like Dems and libs.
No. Principled Republicans can dislike Democratic policies without disliking Democrats. The two sides can negotiate without hating the other.

It used to be thus. It can be again. Democrats want the best for the nation and so do Republicans. They differ only in what is best. That's why we have conversations.
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:51 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And that they are more willing to stand with nazis and sex offenders than dems and libs.
This is the kind of **** I'm talking about. Not all of them, not the majority of them, except maybe in Alabama.
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:53 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No. Principled Republicans can dislike Democratic policies without disliking Democrats. The two sides can negotiate without hating the other.

It used to be thus. It can be again. Democrats want the best for the nation and so do Republicans. They differ only in what is best. That's why we have conversations.
rubbish.

ObamaCare proved that: it was a Republican plan which had to be opposed at any cost because it came from a Democrat.
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:54 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
This is the kind of **** I'm talking about. Not all of them, not the majority of them, except maybe in Alabama.
Only 80% of them. See Trump. If they cared about associating with nazis and sexual assault they would have had issues choosing him as their leader. So the official endorsement of the republican party leader(ie the president of the united states) of fascists on twitter today shows that.

So it is really the vast majority ruining it for everyone else.
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:55 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No. Principled Republicans can dislike Democratic policies without disliking Democrats. The two sides can negotiate without hating the other.

It used to be thus. It can be again. (snip)
I may be becoming cynical but I'm starting to think that it can be again only once the edifice have collapsed and has been built up again.
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Old 29th November 2017, 08:57 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
rubbish.

ObamaCare proved that: it was a Republican plan which had to be opposed at any cost because it came from a Democrat.
In their defense, it seems like it would have been impossible for them to work with a black president and not have their base start rioting.
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Old 29th November 2017, 09:00 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
<snip>

The GOP is clearly more fractious than the Dems. The GOP has three or four different interest groups with often diametrically opposed ideologies(The old guard are all about free trade, Trump's coalition are all about protectionism), at most the Dems have two that only disagree in degree.

So fractious that somewhere around 15% of them admit their lack of support for Trump.

Yep. That's one split-up party right there.

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Old 29th November 2017, 09:01 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Only 80% of them. See Trump. If they cared about associating with nazis and sexual assault they would have had issues choosing him as their leader. So the official endorsement of the republican party leader(ie the president of the united states) of fascists on twitter today shows that.

So it is really the vast majority ruining it for everyone else.
Unfortunately, I'm increasingly coming to believe that to be the case. I used to think that the problem with the Republican party was a tendency to pander too much to its fringe elements. The rise and, more importantly, the continued popularity of Trump shows that what I thought were fringe elements are the Republican mainstream.
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Old 29th November 2017, 09:14 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Unfortunately, I'm increasingly coming to believe that to be the case. I used to think that the problem with the Republican party was a tendency to pander too much to its fringe elements. The rise and, more importantly, the continued popularity of Trump shows that what I thought were fringe elements are the Republican mainstream.
At the very least the main stream is fine with the president retweeting nazis.
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Old 29th November 2017, 09:21 AM   #309
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You all continue to prove my point. It appears you are referencing a tweet that was quickly deleted, which suggests that perhaps Trump doesn't think his base is cool with NAZI's, they are however cool with his ignorance. Most of them anyway.

But, you are so invested in this vision of the GOP as united front of NAZIs you can't see the obvious.
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Old 29th November 2017, 09:29 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You all continue to prove my point. It appears you are referencing a tweet that was quickly deleted, which suggests that perhaps Trump doesn't think his base is cool with NAZI's, they are however cool with his ignorance. Most of them anyway.

But, you are so invested in this vision of the GOP as united front of NAZIs you can't see the obvious.
When were they taken down?

And this is hardly the first time.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/22/politi...ide/index.html

Why isn't his long time fascination(at least) with white supremacists an serious issue for republicans?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/22/politi...eet/index.html

He has a long history of listening to white supremacist sources an treating their lies as facts and republicans simply don't care. These things are the basic facts of what the republican party has become.

To reject Trumps ties to white supremacist and Nazis is to reject reality. And you are demonstrating how conservatives reject reality solidly in this very thread.
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Old 29th November 2017, 09:30 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You all continue to prove my point. It appears you are referencing a tweet that was quickly deleted, which suggests that perhaps Trump doesn't think his base is cool with NAZI's, they are however cool with his ignorance. Most of them anyway.

But, you are so invested in this vision of the GOP as united front of NAZIs you can't see the obvious.
We might be talking about different things. The Jayda Fransen retweets are still on Trump's twitter right now. I'd consider a quick takedown to be within an hour or two of the original posting.
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Old 29th November 2017, 09:32 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
We might be talking about different things. The Jayda Fransen retweets are still on Trump's twitter right now. I'd consider a quick takedown to be within an hour or two of the original posting.
To be fair there are so many nazi retweets by trump you need to be pretty specific about what one you are talking about
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Old 29th November 2017, 10:26 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You all continue to prove my point. It appears you are referencing a tweet that was quickly deleted, which suggests that perhaps Trump doesn't think his base is cool with NAZI's, they are however cool with his ignorance. Most of them anyway.

But, you are so invested in this vision of the GOP as united front of NAZIs you can't see the obvious.
Conservatives ignore claims that anyone is a NAZI, Racist, or Fascist because you can't be a conservative without being called a NAZI, Racist and/or Fascist.

Anecdote warning:

Back when GW was running the GOP made a big effort to showcase women and minority Republicans at the convention. This was roundly denounced as tokenism by my progressive associates. In the eyes of many progressives, they can't not be racist unless they are progressives. So they stopped listening to the claims.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...different.html

Quote:
I know liberals made a big mistake because we attacked your boy Bush like he was the end of the world. And he wasn't. And Mitt Romney we attacked that way. I gave Obama a million dollars because I was so afraid of Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney wouldn't have changed my life that much or yours. Or John McCain.

They were honorable men who we disagreed with and we should have kept it that way. So we cried wolf and that was wrong. But this is real. This is going to be way different.
That and lots of republicans have condemned Trumps flirting with NAZIs but like conservatives always call for moderate Muslims to condemn terrorists even though they have, progressives will always call for conservatives to condemn NAZIs even though they already have. The message conservatives have taken is, "Why bother?"

I don't actually use twitter so I did a quick search for Trump NAZI tweet and the one from today was quickly deleted. A one of the references in this thread mentioned a tweet from this morning, I thought that was the one in question. The issue with Trump, most of his sins can be the result of his ignorance.

Last edited by ahhell; 29th November 2017 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 29th November 2017, 10:29 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Conservatives ignore claims that anyone is a NAZI, Racist, or Fascist because you can't be a conservative without being called a NAZI, Racist and/or Fascist.
Exactly just because you have political differences over ethnic cleansing and genocide is no reason to call someone a nazi, no matter how many swastikas they have.

Quote:
That and lots of republicans have condemned Trumps flirting with NAZIs but like conservatives always call for moderate Muslims to condemn terrorists even though they have, progressives will always call for conservatives to condemn NAZIs even though they already have. The message conservatives have taken is, "Why bother?"
Why is it my job to sort the republican nazis from the quislings?
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Old 29th November 2017, 10:41 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
rubbish.

ObamaCare proved that: it was a Republican plan which had to be opposed at any cost because it came from a Democrat.
I am loathe to fall prey to the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, but here's my claim.

Romney's plan was a Republican plan in MA, but not a plan that was widely accepted among Republicans. It was something that worked in a liberal state (where I live).

It should have worked on the Federal level, but it didn't. Damned shame.

Now, of course, Trump wants to undo everything that Obama ever did, because Trump is a child in the executive office. He's a *********** moron.

But it's not the case that all principled Republicans want to repeal Obamacare. I'd reckon that Romney is in favor of it, for instance. Some Republicans oppose Dems just because they're Dems. So what? We should not support such small-brained people. But some Republicans have real principles, principles worth defending. Romney and McCain are among them.
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Old 29th November 2017, 10:43 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I may be becoming cynical but I'm starting to think that it can be again only once the edifice have collapsed and has been built up again.
I am not unsympathetic to that view. There's a role for conservatism in US politics, but what passes for the Republican position is not properly called "conservative" any more.
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Old 29th November 2017, 10:48 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I've thought of a way in which a large number of progressives truly reject reality.

The persist in the notion that conservatives and republicans are some sort of cohesive group with a clear ideology and agenda. There's lots of talk about how in the current climate on sexual misconduct, Reps and Cons are rallying around folks like Roy Moore where Dems and libs are "eating their own" This sort of talk has been common among most of my progressive associates for a decade or so and presists despite the facts that the Reps have a president the leadership doesn't want and can't pass any legislation despite having control of both houses of congress.

The GOP is clearly more fractious than the Dems. The GOP has three or four different interest groups with often diametrically opposed ideologies(The old guard are all about free trade, Trump's coalition are all about protectionism), at most the Dems have two that only disagree in degree.
What does "eating their own" mean? To me that means that all Dem's are aligning their responses' to disavow other Dem's who have been accused of sexual misconduct, which is not the case. The allegations of sexual misconduct of Dem's has fractured the Dem's as a group.
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Old 29th November 2017, 10:49 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I am loathe to fall prey to the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, but here's my claim.

Romney's plan was a Republican plan in MA, but not a plan that was widely accepted among Republicans. It was something that worked in a liberal state (where I live).
It was the heritage institutes plan to offer up an alternative to universal health care that would address some of the issues killing tens thousands of Americans a year.

The big complaint seems to be that it is called Obamacare. The other exact things about how they want to change it seem to be more like a wish list instead of anything that would actually happen. With Trumps "plan" of renegotiating everything to make insurance rates go down and make everyone covered for less.

The best plans they seem to be able to do is strip tens of millions of people of their healthcare.
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Old 29th November 2017, 10:50 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I am loathe to fall prey to the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, but here's my claim.

Romney's plan was a Republican plan in MA, but not a plan that was widely accepted among Republicans. It was something that worked in a liberal state (where I live).

It should have worked on the Federal level, but it didn't. Damned shame.

Now, of course, Trump wants to undo everything that Obama ever did, because Trump is a child in the executive office. He's a *********** moron.

But it's not the case that all principled Republicans want to repeal Obamacare. I'd reckon that Romney is in favor of it, for instance. Some Republicans oppose Dems just because they're Dems. So what? We should not support such small-brained people. But some Republicans have real principles, principles worth defending. Romney and McCain are among them.
But Republicans would have tried to make it work if it had come from Romney directly instead of trying to sabotage it because it came from Obama.
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Old 29th November 2017, 11:16 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I've thought of a way in which a large number of progressives truly reject reality.

The persist in the notion that conservatives and republicans are some sort of cohesive group with a clear ideology and agenda. There's lots of talk about how in the current climate on sexual misconduct, Reps and Cons are rallying around folks like Roy Moore where Dems and libs are "eating their own" This sort of talk has been common among most of my progressive associates for a decade or so and presists despite the facts that the Reps have a president the leadership doesn't want and can't pass any legislation despite having control of both houses of congress.

The GOP is clearly more fractious than the Dems. The GOP has three or four different interest groups with often diametrically opposed ideologies(The old guard are all about free trade, Trump's coalition are all about protectionism), at most the Dems have two that only disagree in degree.
While there is some truth to this, at the end of the day Republicans tend function as a block and Republican voters tend to believe everything from all the special interest groups even when they are mutually exclusive or contradictory. In fact, this willingness to support contradictory positions forms a big part of their reality rejection. Eg One Republican faction wants tax cuts, another is big on balanced budgets, a third wants more military spending. Republican voters are happy enough believing all three will actually happen if only they vote Republican.
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