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Old 19th November 2017, 02:34 PM   #81
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You know, I keep hearing about this Tom Bombadil guy...
He wasn't in the BBC radio production and certainly not in the movies. And even though I've read the books, I don't remember a thing about his character.

I also watched and enjoyed Babylon 5 faithfully, but I have no idea who the Bombadil character was supposed to be.
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Old 19th November 2017, 02:37 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
You know, I keep hearing about this Tom Bombadil guy...
He wasn't in the BBC radio production and certainly not in the movies. And even though I've read the books, I don't remember a thing about his character.

I also watched and enjoyed Babylon 5 faithfully, but I have no idea who the Bombadil character was supposed to be.
Bombadil was the singing guy whom the Hobbits ran into when they got into trouble in the Old Forest before they arrived at Bree. He also rescued them when they got lost in the Barrow Downs. In all, he took up about two chapters.

He's never been included in any of the productions because 1: he seems a totally superfluous character who has little or nothing to do with the actual plot of the story and 2: all the singing.
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Old 19th November 2017, 03:39 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
You know, I keep hearing about this Tom Bombadil guy...
He wasn't in the BBC radio production and certainly not in the movies. And even though I've read the books, I don't remember a thing about his character.

I also watched and enjoyed Babylon 5 faithfully, but I have no idea who the Bombadil character was supposed to be.
Hippy living in the woods.
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Old 19th November 2017, 05:00 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Lensman View Post
or "Bored of the Rings" by the Harvard Lampoon?
I would definitely pay to watch that!!!!!!!!! There were two similar done iirc in England.
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Old 19th November 2017, 05:09 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
You know, I keep hearing about this Tom Bombadil guy...
He wasn't in the BBC radio production and certainly not in the movies. And even though I've read the books, I don't remember a thing about his character.

I also watched and enjoyed Babylon 5 faithfully, but I have no idea who the Bombadil character was supposed to be.
In B5, in a later ep, Boxleitner falls a long way down on a planet but does not die. He is shortly met by an old guy who turns out to be as old if not older that the Shadows and helps him. The Shadows avoid him studiously. The old guy seems off - as did Bombadil The Shadows were basically Mordorites And I trust you remember the ranger/Aragorn equivalent. I also trust you can ID the Elf Queen/Faery who weds the Human King (Boxleitner). (Note, of course the king is a combo of two people in LOTR)
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Old 19th November 2017, 06:35 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
In B5, in a later ep, Boxleitner falls a long way down on a planet but does not die. He is shortly met by an old guy who turns out to be as old if not older that the Shadows and helps him. The Shadows avoid him studiously. The old guy seems off - as did Bombadil The Shadows were basically Mordorites And I trust you remember the ranger/Aragorn equivalent. I also trust you can ID the Elf Queen/Faery who weds the Human King (Boxleitner). (Note, of course the king is a combo of two people in LOTR)
So, Zathras then? I don't really remember what he did in the series either, other than peer at Sinclair and say "You are not The One".
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Old 19th November 2017, 08:03 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
So, Zathras then?
It wasn't Zathras. It was Zathras.
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Old 20th November 2017, 06:34 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I would definitely pay to watch that!!!!!!!!! There were two similar done iirc in England.
Oops - books not films/tv!!!!!
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Old 20th November 2017, 01:34 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
It wasn't Zathras. It was Zathras.
Not Zathras. Lorien (another reference).

But Lorien doesn't perform the same role in B5 as Bombadil does in LoTR (that being no role at all). Lorien plays more of the "Magic Flight/Rescue From Without" role from Campbell's Monomyth.

Sheridan is killed at Z'Ha'Dum. Lorien brings him back to life and returns him to the world, from which he can defeat the monsters and complete the Hero's Journey.

I've always had a problem with casting Lorien in the Bombadil role - they are really not at all analogous.
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Old 20th November 2017, 05:36 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
You know, I keep hearing about this Tom Bombadil guy...
He wasn't in the BBC radio production and certainly not in the movies. And even though I've read the books, I don't remember a thing about his character.

I also watched and enjoyed Babylon 5 faithfully, but I have no idea who the Bombadil character was supposed to be.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Bombadil was the singing guy whom the Hobbits ran into when they got into trouble in the Old Forest before they arrived at Bree. He also rescued them when they got lost in the Barrow Downs. In all, he took up about two chapters.

He's never been included in any of the productions because 1: he seems a totally superfluous character who has little or nothing to do with the actual plot of the story and 2: all the singing.
3. He really doesn't fit in the world JRRT built; he comes from an earlier time in JRRT's writing when "The Hobbit" was going to be a simple traveling adventure with the characters running into one weird random thing after another and the world lacked the organization and structure that would later characterize TLOTR and The Silmarillion and their offshoots. So any movie or TV series which uses the latter really doesn't have any way to include him and still be coherent.

Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
In B5, in a later ep, Boxleitner falls a long way down on a planet but does not die. He is shortly met by an old guy who turns out to be as old if not older that the Shadows and helps him. The Shadows avoid him studiously. The old guy seems off - as did Bombadil
Rescuing the main characters is the only thing those two characters have in common. Bombadil is lighthearted & child-like, and Lorien is the classic super-serious aloof elder. And Bombadil has no connection to the story before of after meeting the Hobbits, but Lorien knew the elder species like Shadows & Vorlons all along, was even respected/reveered by them, and accompanied the rescued main character after rescuing him, continuing to give wisdom/advice that practically framed the rest of the whole story as his own story in a way.
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Old 21st November 2017, 06:50 AM   #91
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About the only bearing on the plot would be the bit where Bombadil is able to handle the Ring without any apparent affect.
The characters at one point speculate about leaving the Ring with him, but they realize he would not be concerned with it at all and would likely just forget about it.
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Old 21st November 2017, 08:08 AM   #92
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Tolkien himself even said that he created Bombadil merely because he "needed an adventure at that point." He purposely left his immunity to the Ring enigmatic and never really did have an explanation for it.

Uber fans grumbled about him being left out of the films, but I think his inclusion would have done nothing but confuse movie goers who were not familiar with the books.
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Old 21st November 2017, 08:23 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Hippy living in the woods.
Scatterbrained God living in the woods would be more accurate.
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Old 21st November 2017, 08:38 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Scatterbrained God living in the woods would be more accurate.
Idiot god is obviously a Cthulhu reference. Which would make the Old Forest R'lyeh.

Well, if we're playing tenuous analogies.........
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Old 21st November 2017, 09:36 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Scatterbrained God living in the woods would be more accurate.
You just made me realize that there's some similarity with the movie version of Radagast The White-Spotted.
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Old 21st November 2017, 09:43 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Idiot god is obviously a Cthulhu reference. Which would make the Old Forest R'lyeh.

Well, if we're playing tenuous analogies.........
Wouldn't that be Azathoth?
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Old 21st November 2017, 09:58 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
It wasn't Zathras. It was Zathras.
Subtle difference.
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Old 21st November 2017, 10:00 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Wouldn't that be Azathoth?
Then goldenberry is nyarlathotep?
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Old 21st November 2017, 11:36 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Then goldenberry is nyarlathotep?
Nyarlathotep* is on FB - he's a dude unless he has a more interesting social life than I was aware of.


*JREF handle of an old regular.
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:14 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Psi Baba View Post
Uber fans grumbled about him being left out of the films, but I think his inclusion would have done nothing but confuse movie goers who were not familiar with the books.
And all the singing. It would not have been appropriate to turn the movie into a musical at that point.
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:16 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
About the only bearing on the plot would be the bit where Bombadil is able to handle the Ring without any apparent affect.
The characters at one point speculate about leaving the Ring with him, but they realize he would not be concerned with it at all and would likely just forget about it.
That exchange takes place at the Council of Elrond.

The implication is that Bombadil is a Maia, like Gandalf and Sauron, though that isn't ever stated.
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Old 21st November 2017, 05:14 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
<ahem>

I'd also love to see a series based on Niven's Known Space.



But also tales from when the magic goes away...
Space yes. Been a while since I read them. Time for another journey to Ringworld I guess!
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Old 21st November 2017, 05:15 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
As others suggested early on, it should have been only two films - and , by me, should have included Tom Bombadil - even Bab5 had him (though no Goldberry).
Tom Bombadil wasn't part of The Hobbit.
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Old 21st November 2017, 05:16 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Bombadil was the singing guy whom the Hobbits ran into when they got into trouble in the Old Forest before they arrived at Bree. He also rescued them when they got lost in the Barrow Downs. In all, he took up about two chapters.

He's never been included in any of the productions because 1: he seems a totally superfluous character who has little or nothing to do with the actual plot of the story and 2: all the singing.
Yes, but he's a solid fan fave for superfluous characters!

Also - Old Man Willow is our first foreshadowing of huorns
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Old 21st November 2017, 05:23 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That exchange takes place at the Council of Elrond.

The implication is that Bombadil is a Maia, like Gandalf and Sauron, though that isn't ever stated.
I always thought it was pretty clear (although I couldn't remember the term). Tom (and his wife whatsername) are older than man, older than elves.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 01:08 AM   #106
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Surely the larger plot point with Tom was arming Merry with a barrow-blade forged specifically to harm the Witch-king.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 02:26 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
(and his wife whatsername)
Goldberry.

And yes, Tom refers to himself as "Eldest".
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Old 22nd November 2017, 02:28 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Surely the larger plot point with Tom was arming Merry with a barrow-blade forged specifically to harm the Witch-king.
Which Aragorn did in the movies with absolutely no singing at all!
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Old 22nd November 2017, 02:52 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
As a bit of a sideways step... I'd love to see a TV series set in Niven's Known Universe. Given Niven's willingness to let other people invent there, it seems like it would be a great platform.

Or even Warhammer 3000 - there's a whole lot of opportunity in there too.
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40,000.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post


What's an order of magnitude among friends?

The models and figurines are much, much, smaller.

They might not even hurt a lot if you stepped on them barefoot.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 02:53 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Surely the larger plot point with Tom was arming Merry with a barrow-blade forged specifically to harm the Witch-king.
"Point" and "Tom" don't really belong in the same sentence.

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Old 22nd November 2017, 05:48 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Which Aragorn did in the movies with absolutely no singing at all!
...although he did fail to mention the thing's background or abilities, even in the Director's Cut.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 08:29 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The models and figurines are much, much, smaller.

They might not even hurt a lot if you stepped on them barefoot.
You'd feel it in the wallet - OOP Epic scale 40K is pricy!
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Old 22nd November 2017, 01:51 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...although he did fail to mention the thing's background or abilities, even in the Director's Cut.
It had no "abilities". It wasn't a magic dagger. Tom explained merely that it was forged in the old kingdom. Here's the entire passage:

Quote:
For each of the hobbits he chose a dagger, long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvellous workmanship, damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold. They gleamed as he drew them from their black sheaths, wrought of some strange metal, light and strong, and set with many fiery stones. Whether by some virtue in these sheaths, or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time, unrusted, sharp, glittering in the sun.

'Old knives are long enough as swords for hobbit-people,' he said. 'Sharp blades are good to have, if Shire-folk go walking east, south or far away into dark and danger'. Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dūm in the land of Angmar.

'Few now remember them,' Tom murmured, 'yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.'

The hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow. The the vision faded, and they were back in the sunlit world. It was time to start again.
There's a lot in this - including a foreshadowing of Aragorn - but nowhere does it say that the daggers were magic. It suggests that the sheaths might be, but not the blades themselves, though they were extremely fine and probably quite valuable.

But the story of Carn Dūm and Angmar is one of those that is barely touched on in the canon, and one of those that I'd love to see developed in further detail.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 02:11 PM   #114
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But when Merry strikes the witchking
Quote:
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dśnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
The last sentence implies to me that there is something special about this blade.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 02:30 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
The last sentence implies to me that there is something special about this blade.
I grant that, but first, it would be an amazing coincidence for the Hobbits to find just that one singular blade that could defeat the most powerful Nazgūl while lost in the fog. And second, Tom still didn't say anything about that when he gave the hobbits the blades (four blades, mind, not one) in the first place. Third, Frodo struck at one of the Nazgūl with one of these blades on Weathertop and all it did was slash the cloak.

Quote:
'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.'
It wasn't Merry who killed the Witch-King. It was Eowyn. Merry wounded him with one of these blades, certainly, but the Nazgūl was destroyed because he was struck by a woman, not because he was struck by a magical blade.

A scene, by the way, that the movie in no way did justice to.

Some may say that I think about this book far too much.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 02:57 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I grant that, but first, it would be an amazing coincidence for the Hobbits to find just that one singular blade that could defeat the most powerful Nazgūl while lost in the fog. And second, Tom still didn't say anything about that when he gave the hobbits the blades (four blades, mind, not one) in the first place. Third, Frodo struck at one of the Nazgūl with one of these blades on Weathertop and all it did was slash the cloak.



It wasn't Merry who killed the Witch-King. It was Eowyn. Merry wounded him with one of these blades, certainly, but the Nazgūl was destroyed because he was struck by a woman, not because he was struck by a magical blade.

A scene, by the way, that the movie in no way did justice to.

Some may say that I think about this book far too much.

I agree, the sword itself had no intrinsic magic.
It was an instrument of fate and prophecy.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 03:06 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I grant that, but first, it would be an amazing coincidence for the Hobbits to find just that one singular blade that could defeat the most powerful Nazgūl while lost in the fog.
The story is full of amazing coincidences. Just look at the path that just happens to occur to get the One Ring from Isildur to Frodo.

Quote:
And second, Tom still didn't say anything about that when he gave the hobbits the blades (four blades, mind, not one) in the first place. Third, Frodo struck at one of the Nazgūl with one of these blades on Weathertop and all it did was slash the cloak.



It wasn't Merry who killed the Witch-King. It was Eowyn. Merry wounded him with one of these blades, certainly, but the Nazgūl was destroyed because he was struck by a woman, not because he was struck by a magical blade.
Quote:

Good points.
A scene, by the way, that the movie in no way did justice to.

Some may say that I think about this book far too much.
Oh the scene they totally stuffed was The Return of the King.
Quote:
And then wonder took him, and a great joy; and he cast his sword up in the sunlight and sang as he caught it. And all eyes followed his gaze, and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White Tree, and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown above it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count.
Hard to convey that in a movie but still......
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Old 22nd November 2017, 03:41 PM   #118
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Old 22nd November 2017, 11:36 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It was an instrument of fate and prophecy.
Is that what we are calling "contrived writing" nowadays?

Tolkien is like the Beatles. Groundbreaking... but it's all been done much better since.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 12:23 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Is that what we are calling "contrived writing" nowadays?

Tolkien is like the Beatles. Groundbreaking... but it's all been done much better since.
A better example being?
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