ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 17th November 2017, 12:00 PM   #241
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 20,714
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
........I ask you how your thoughts can be entirely caused by electro chemical activity if you can still think freely?
This is a non-question. It doesn't mean anything. Thinking is an electro-chemical activity, whether that thinking is "free" or whatever the opposite of free is in this context.
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 12:01 PM   #242
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Most thinking is sub-conscious, so the answer to this is yes, whatever you try to do about it.
I am not sure about thinking being sub conscious. I know I could stop my mind from babbling in deep meditation.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 12:07 PM   #243
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 20,714
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It was part of my experience of the early stages of schizophrenia that I was loosing my grip on my mind, I also felt a feeling like fire streaming through my forehead.

Quote:
I discovered this was because my etheric body was loose and my chakras miss aligned. I was literally out of my mind, and my thoughts were jumping across a gap between my soul and my brain.
There is no such thing as an "etheric body" or a "chakra". You were just extremely vulnerable to suggestion (I didn't use the word gullible) at that difficult time in your life, and clung on to whatever gobble-de-gook you were told by some sincere-sounding person who took the trouble to pay you some attention. The attention will have helped you. Some of the mental exercises you may or may not have been given may have helped you. But that doesn't mean that the explanation you were given is anything other than total rubbish.

Quote:
But you would have to experience that to believe it. Never the less spiritual healing cured me of it over a period of time.
No. If you healed, you healed regardless of the spiritual clap-trap.
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 12:10 PM   #244
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 20,714
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am not sure about thinking being sub conscious. I know I could stop my mind from babbling in deep meditation.
The definition of sub-conscious is such that you could not be aware of the brain activity at this level. Most vibrations are sub- or -super our ability to hear them. That doesn't mean that those sounds don't exist.
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 12:28 PM   #245
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
There is no such thing as an "etheric body" or a "chakra". You were just extremely vulnerable to suggestion
The actual sequence of events is that I felt the fire flowing in my body before finding out about the chakras. I looked in a book called alternative London and saw a diagram of the seven main chakras, and I immediately recognised them as the locations of the feelings of fire. It was that which led me to a study of the occult.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 12:31 PM   #246
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,985
nvm. Misread.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 12:31 PM   #247
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 20,714
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The actual sequence of events is that I felt the fire flowing in my body before finding out about the chakras. I looked in a book called alternative London and saw a diagram of the seven main chakras, and I immediately recognised them as the locations of the feelings of fire. It was that which led me to a study of the occult.
None of which is any sort of response to my post. There are no such things as chakras or etheric bodies. This is gobbledegook made up to baffle the gullible.
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 12:35 PM   #248
Gamolon
Master Poster
 
Gamolon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,102
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
So, we evolve spiritually over a long cycle of births and rebirths, answering for every action we make and accounting for it.

This makes sense to me but the Abrahamic religions including Islam in which we are judged, and go to heaven or hell based on just one lifetime makes no sense. It is a system that has injustice and inequality built into it.
Your belief:

God creates souls/spirits. These souls/spirits have the potential to be guided to incarnations by karma angels knowing full well that those incarnations actions will knowingly cause millions of people to suffer horribly, and that those actions will have to be accounted for? And a soul/spirit will still choose that incarnation?

How does that make sense? What kind of God would create a Hitleresque incarnation that would cause millions of his children to suffer horribly and lead a soul/spirit to live it?

This makes sense to you? It makes sense that a soul/spirit would actually choose that incarnation? I thought souls/spirits learned from past incarnations?
Gamolon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 12:42 PM   #249
Gamolon
Master Poster
 
Gamolon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,102
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
but normally people cannot remember anything about their previous lives because we are limited to what our brains remember in a single incarnation.
So, I'm a soul/spirit and I'm guided to a Hitler type incarnation. I see the horrors I will be responsible for and how my actions will cause millions of my spirit brethren to suffer during this incarnation's life. I know at the end of the incarnation life that I will be judged for what I did. I know that I must be a better soul/spirit going forward to move closer to perfection. I also know that I will forget all about what this incarnation does once I accept it.

Why in the hell would I choose that incarnation? How does THAT make sense to you? That I am responsible for things that are already laid out and that I have no control over?
Gamolon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 12:45 PM   #250
Gamolon
Master Poster
 
Gamolon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,102
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
But humans remain part of a family of souls and we do not regress.
So you're telling me that the soul/spirit that chose Hitler's incarnation, knowing full well what it entailed, was choosing a better incarnation than the last one it chose?!

Gamolon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 12:55 PM   #251
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
So, I'm a soul/spirit and I'm guided to a Hitler type incarnation. I see the horrors I will be responsible for and how my actions will cause millions of my spirit brethren to suffer during this incarnation's life. I know at the end of the incarnation life that I will be judged for what I did. I know that I must be a better soul/spirit going forward to move closer to perfection. I also know that I will forget all about what this incarnation does once I accept it.

Why in the hell would I choose that incarnation? How does THAT make sense to you? That I am responsible for things that are already laid out and that I have no control over?
The soul does not see into the future and does not know what it will do.
The angels of Karma may be able to see into the future, but they are not empowered to stop a persons future actions.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 12:58 PM   #252
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,830
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not think karma is as bad as hell, because it is a system of ultimate justice, where people truly reap what they have sown

Which is used to justify the abuses of the caste system and blame disabled people for their own impairments.

Quote:
The unequal distribution of wealth, prestige, suffering are thus seen as natural*consequences for ones previous acts, both in this life and in previous lives (they can't complain about the system because they are responsible for where they ended up).
https://www.scribd.com/document/2718...Re-Incarnation

The doctrine of Karma and reincarnation is a way for the fortunate to divest themselves of responsibility for their fellow man, and claim blind luck as virtue.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 01:04 PM   #253
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,830
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Another experiment that has been done is to simply give the medium positive responses even though what they're saying actually means nothing to you. "Yes, John was the name of my father who died six months ago", even though your father's name is Brian and he's still alive. You'll get an ever more detailed story, building on whatever information you give, all of which is wrong. At no point will the spirits apparently see fit to tell the medium that the subject of the reading is actually lying through their teeth.
I have no doubt the experiment would work but be concerned about the effect on the (already duped) audience.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 01:08 PM   #254
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,830
Originally Posted by Sparhafoc View Post
(do people really place value on such trivialities?)

Generally, 'No'.

And welcome!
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 01:08 PM   #255
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 20,714
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The soul does not see into the future and does not know what it will do..........
Correct, on the grounds that it doesn't exist in the first place. You are trying to ascribe functions to something which is nothing but a figment of the human imagination. As such, you can make up any old thing and tell us as often as you like how much you really, really believe in it.........but that's all you've got.
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 01:17 PM   #256
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
So you're telling me that the soul/spirit that chose Hitler's incarnation, knowing full well what it entailed, was choosing a better incarnation than the last one it chose?!

No Hitler's soul would not have known what he was going to do. That would be totally inhibiting to the soul and it would not want to incarnate.

This world is a meeting ground for souls of all levels of evolution, from highly evolved souls to very unevolved souls. It is our interactions with one another that forces growth and spiritual development.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 01:17 PM   #257
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,985
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The soul does not see into the future and does not know what it will do.
The angels of Karma may be able to see into the future, but they are not empowered to stop a persons future actions.
so your god is that much of a dick? Wow.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 03:27 PM   #258
Thor 2
Illuminator
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 3,030
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
So, we evolve spiritually over a long cycle of births and rebirths, answering for every action we make and accounting for it.

This makes sense to me but the Abrahamic religions including Islam in which we are judged, and go to heaven or hell based on just one lifetime makes no sense. It is a system that has injustice and inequality built into it.

I am in agreement with you here Scorpion.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 04:02 PM   #259
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I am in agreement with you here Scorpion.
You see, we are half way to an agreement.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 04:26 PM   #260
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,632
Getting close to an agreement is pretty easy when it's agreeing that all other religions are made up. It's going the final step to agreeing to add one more to the list that seems trickier.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 04:29 PM   #261
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,858
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Try and stop thinking, you might find another level of your consciousness.
I used to do meditation and it is very hard to stop thinking, but on occasions I reached a state where I was aware but my mind was not babbling on.
At that point I felt so calm as if having another thought would actually require an effort.

[...]
So you think we can get better ideas about the world if we don't think about them so much?
__________________
"I have no clue" - King of the Americas
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 04:33 PM   #262
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,858
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
In the same way that my leg movement is caused by electo-chemical signals instructing muscle fibers to contract and I can still walk freely.
AKA reflexes. Knee-jerk reflexes occur between your lower leg and spine. They allow you to walk quickly and run without having to watch your feet.

Scorpion, I hope you are paying attention.
__________________
"I have no clue" - King of the Americas
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 04:40 PM   #263
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,104
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
So you think we can get better ideas about the world if we don't think about them so much?
I think watching the TV news does a lot of people psychological harm, because it faces us with a daily input of terrible events. If we threw out the TV and newspapers the daily events of most peoples lives would be largely uneventful.
Life goes on for most of us and we are not Atlas, and should not try to carry the weight of the world on our backs.

Meditation is also helpful in achieving mental peace.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 04:53 PM   #264
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,858
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am not sure about thinking being sub conscious. I know I could stop my mind from babbling in deep meditation.

Lot of us folks are from Missouri.
__________________
"I have no clue" - King of the Americas
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 04:54 PM   #265
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,830
Closing your eyes and going 'la la la la la' may stop you seeing and hearing the bad things that go on in the world, but reality doesn't go away just because you wish it to. The progress you've alluded to over the last couple of centuries has been because people heard about the awful things that were happening and did something about it, themselves or by pressuring those in power.

Quote:
No rights were ever given to us by the grace of God
No rights were ever given by some United Nations clause
No rights were ever given by some nice guy at the top
Our rights they were bought by all the blood
And all the tears of all our
Grandmothers, grandfathers before
New Model Army "My Country"
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 05:10 PM   #266
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,368
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You seemed to be saying there is no theory of karma in eastern religions, so I posted a link to show there is. I believe in karma because it is a fundamental part of spiritualist teachings, and I assume some of the genuine mediums are getting their information directly from the spirit world. Several trance mediums I have seen agree with each other on the principals of reincarnation and karma.

I do not think karma is as bad as hell, because it is a system of ultimate justice, where people truly reap what they have sown
Personally, I think karma is an utterly horrid and disgusting doctrine.

According to the doctrine of karma, the child who has leukaemia, the woman who is raped and beaten, the people who are tortured by chronic illness - all of that happens to them because they deserve it. It's their fault for doing bad things in a past life.

Karma says that the person who is crippled by Huntington's disease deserves it, because they have Hitler's soul and they're paying for Hitler's crimes.

Karma is among the worst doctrines ever thought up by humans. It's definitely up there with eternal torture in hell.
__________________
Read my fantasy novel for free!
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 05:13 PM   #267
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,830
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Personally, I think karma is an utterly horrid and disgusting doctrine.

According to the doctrine of karma, the child who has leukaemia, the woman who is raped and beaten, the people who are tortured by chronic illness - all of that happens to them because they deserve it. It's their fault for doing bad things in a past life.

Karma says that the person who is crippled by Huntington's disease deserves it, because they have Hitler's soul and they're paying for Hitler's crimes.

Karma is among the worst doctrines ever thought up by humans. It's definitely up there with eternal torture in hell.
And it provides 'justification' for the inequalities of the caste system.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 05:28 PM   #268
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,368
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
And it provides 'justification' for the inequalities of the caste system.
Among other things, yes. The poor people are poor because they deserve to be poor because of the things that they did in past lives. It doesn't matter if I kick them, because obviously that's just part of their punishment. In fact, I might even have a moral duty to kick them.

What a horrible, horrible doctrine.
__________________
Read my fantasy novel for free!
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 07:51 PM   #269
Sparhafoc
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: กรุงเทพ
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Closing your eyes and going 'la la la la la' may stop you seeing and hearing the bad things that go on in the world, but reality doesn't go away just because you wish it to.

I think it really does for Scorpion, in exactly the same way as he thinks that all the notions he quite likes suddenly become real just because he likes them.

It's quite rare to find someone who just stacks one apparently delusional faith position atop another, regardless of how well they relate to one another or how contradictory they are, and with not one of them justified by any form of evidential or logical support.

Methinks Scorpion has missed his calling - art seems to be the exact place where the way his brain works may actually offer something of utility, because it surely doesn't when it comes to philosophy, or any attempt at divining empirical reality.
Sparhafoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 08:06 PM   #270
Maksutov
Scholar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 103
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And the churches that invite these "suspicious mediums"? You may have missed it but I added in an actual example in my post, I'll repeat it here:

ETA: Let me give you an example

http://www.leighspiritualisttemple.com/

One of their visiting mediums has been this person:

https://www.spiritualistmedium.co.uk/services - see photo of his tarot cards



Is he a fake Scorpion?
I seem to remember Lamar Keene doing an expose of fakery at a seance at Camp Chesterfield, which took place in a Spiritualist Church. It was the lamest performance you could imagine. It reminded me of a grade school production but the attendees seemed impressed.
Maksutov is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 08:10 PM   #271
The Shrike
Illuminator
 
The Shrike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,500
Apologies if this was addressed earlier, but Scorpion-buddy, you have claimed that you spent quite some time going to so-called spiritualist churches and that you eventually came to accept that the powers of the mediums you encountered were legitimate. One reason you claim for their authenticity is that you were able to do this gratis, save an occasional shilling tossed in the collection plate.

What if you desired, however, a private reading from one of these mediums? Would that have been free as well? I suspect not. It would actually be quite a lucrative business model to advertise your abilities for free on Sunday as a way to recruit paying customers through the week. This might not be the oldest trick in the book, but I'm pretty sure that trick predates the printing press.
The Shrike is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 08:54 PM   #272
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 666
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
This makes sense to me but the Abrahamic religions including Islam in which we are judged, and go to heaven or hell based on just one lifetime makes no sense. It is a system that has injustice and inequality built into it.
Usually "Abrahamic religions" mean Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Your quote above is not what Judaism teaches.

There is no hell taught, there is just Gehinnom (a type of purgatory for souls to repent). Then the soul goes to Olam Ha-ba (World to come/paradise/heaven). Gehinnom only last for 12 months max with one day a week off, Shabbat. (Yes, this is what is taught).

Traditionally, no one wants to believe that a loved one is there for the whole 12 months (I have no clue how an Earthly calendar just happens to be in Gehinnom) so the "Kaddish" (Mourners Prayer) is only recited by the mourners for the deceased for 11 months. (Surely Uncle Yossi, who was always late for everything, has gone on to Olam Ha-ba by then!)

After 12 months evil unrepentant souls are destroyed, extinquished, cease to exist.

Also, reincarnation (not karma) is taught in the mystical streams of Judaism. Whether one believes in it or not, the fact that it is taught is acknowledged by everyone.

Just wanted to clear that up.

/derail
Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2017, 09:17 PM   #273
Zivan
Muse
 
Zivan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 666
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Closing your eyes and going 'la la la la la' may stop you seeing and hearing the bad things that go on in the world, but reality doesn't go away just because you wish it to.
Scorpion has said this before in other threads. Bothered by horrible suffering in the world? Turn the TV off! Stop reading the news! Ignore it!

I have no idea why he thinks ignoring it is okay, but I think it is linked to why he thinks suffering due to "karma" is a good thing too. His idea of "suffering" seems to be limited to what the average Middle Class Westerner experiences.

He seems to ignore the suffering of war, mass starvation, mass disease, etc., etc., going on in the world. In his belief of "karma" none of that matters because the starving and slaughtered children all "deserve" it anyway.

"Karma" is a revolting belief enabling the believer to hand wave away suffering and blame the victim. And if knowing about the suffering bothers anyone, just stop knowing! Ignore it!

Zivan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2017, 12:49 AM   #274
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 79,167
Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Apologies if this was addressed earlier, but Scorpion-buddy, you have claimed that you spent quite some time going to so-called spiritualist churches and that you eventually came to accept that the powers of the mediums you encountered were legitimate. One reason you claim for their authenticity is that you were able to do this gratis, save an occasional shilling tossed in the collection plate.

What if you desired, however, a private reading from one of these mediums? Would that have been free as well? I suspect not. It would actually be quite a lucrative business model to advertise your abilities for free on Sunday as a way to recruit paying customers through the week. This might not be the oldest trick in the book, but I'm pretty sure that trick predates the printing press.
The ones I looked into all gave private readings. Also many of the UK churches that listed their activities also as part of their regular activities had one to one readings that they charge for.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2017, 12:55 AM   #275
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 79,167
Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Scorpion has said this before in other threads. Bothered by horrible suffering in the world? Turn the TV off! Stop reading the news! Ignore it!

I have no idea why he thinks ignoring it is okay, but I think it is linked to why he thinks suffering due to "karma" is a good thing too. His idea of "suffering" seems to be limited to what the average Middle Class Westerner experiences.

He seems to ignore the suffering of war, mass starvation, mass disease, etc., etc., going on in the world. In his belief of "karma" none of that matters because the starving and slaughtered children all "deserve" it anyway.

"Karma" is a revolting belief enabling the believer to hand wave away suffering and blame the victim. And if knowing about the suffering bothers anyone, just stop knowing! Ignore it!

Scorpion actually adds in even more horror as we don't get to choose in our earthly incarnations whether to be good or bad, the karma angels make that decision for us before we are even born. Hitler had to do all the things he did because Scorpion's God decreed it.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2017, 01:27 AM   #276
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,915
Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
It would actually be quite a lucrative business model to advertise your abilities for free on Sunday as a way to recruit paying customers through the week.
Giving free samples is a very effective sales technique for all sorts of products. My local Waitrose often has tastings of new products, I must admit I've been known to try the free sample and then buy it.

I imagine Scorpion is quite unusual in being willing to wait for two years to get something he could latch onto in the free sessions; most people, if they were convinced that there was something in it, would have caved in and paid for a private session long before that.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2017, 02:10 AM   #277
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 16,985
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Personally, I think karma is an utterly horrid and disgusting doctrine.

According to the doctrine of karma, the child who has leukaemia, the woman who is raped and beaten, the people who are tortured by chronic illness - all of that happens to them because they deserve it. It's their fault for doing bad things in a past life.

Karma says that the person who is crippled by Huntington's disease deserves it, because they have Hitler's soul and they're paying for Hitler's crimes.

Karma is among the worst doctrines ever thought up by humans. It's definitely up there with eternal torture in hell.
Agreed. The whole notion is easy to present as some kind of viable and reasonable explanation for why some have bad experiences.

However, when followed to it's logical conclusion, it becomes a horrific belief system. I have a good life therefore I have good karma. That child is being abused therefore they have bad karma and it would be immoral to intervene. Such are the awful consequences of such a belief.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2017, 07:37 AM   #278
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,567
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Agreed. The whole notion is easy to present as some kind of viable and reasonable explanation for why some have bad experiences.

However, when followed to it's logical conclusion, it becomes a horrific belief system. I have a good life therefore I have good karma. That child is being abused therefore they have bad karma and it would be immoral to intervene. Such are the awful consequences of such a belief.
In addition to being horrible it is contradictory. The child who is kidnapped and terribly abused before being painfully murdered deserves it because of karma, but now the kidnapper must pay for his crimes in his next life though he was merely doing what karma provided. So long as one person has ever afflicted another there can never be an end to the horror cycle.
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2017, 03:02 PM   #279
P.J. Denyer
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,830
Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
In addition to being horrible it is contradictory. The child who is kidnapped and terribly abused before being painfully murdered deserves it because of karma, but now the kidnapper must pay for his crimes in his next life though he was merely doing what karma provided. So long as one person has ever afflicted another there can never be an end to the horror cycle.
More horrifically, maybe the abuser 'earned' the right in their past life. Maybe the logical consequence is that being the abuser rather than the victim is a reward? The further down the rabbit hole you follow this the more reprehensible it becomes.

Either way, it's a nice way for the privileged and lucky not to give a crap about the less fortunate.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2017, 07:02 PM   #280
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 79,167
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
More horrifically, maybe the abuser 'earned' the right in their past life. Maybe the logical consequence is that being the abuser rather than the victim is a reward? The further down the rabbit hole you follow this the more reprehensible it becomes.

Either way, it's a nice way for the privileged and lucky not to give a crap about the less fortunate.
I explained this to Scorpion in his other thread. Since his god has decreed we all must suffer during our earthly incarnations and it's for the ultimate good then people who inflict suffering on others (the example we keep using is Hitler) are 1) doing what his god and karma angels want to happen 2) helping millions of other people in their "evolution". Given Scorpion's beliefs the conclusion has to be that the likes of Hitler are benefactors to millions of people.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:48 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.