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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , al franken , sex scandals , sexual abuse incidents , sexual harassment charges , sexual harassment issues

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Old 16th November 2017, 04:17 PM   #241
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Assuming the accusations are credible (as seems to be the case with the accusation against Moore), most will ignore the thread (as I have with the Moore thread). Even if I were inclined to do so, I don't see any sense in trying diversionary tactics; the guy's toast.

Franken's problem is that the visual evidence of the photograph is very compelling.
But it's only ONE accuser...........

Yeah, the double standard in this thread is astonishing.
You know if Franken had an 'R" after his name rather then a "D" some of the people defending him would be screaming for his blood.........
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:18 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Going to disagree there. Personally I think that nothing someone did in their past renders a person unfit to serve their fellow people. It's up to those people if they want that person to serve for them or not.

If the people of Alabama vote for Moore knowing what he has done, then he should serve until they decide he is unfit. Same with Franken, hence why I say he should stand down, and then stand for re-election, let the people decide if they still want him serving them.
The GOP brought up an accusation based on an SNL skit proposal Franken made, see my above post. The voters didn't care.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:19 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If someone had a photo of them taken while groping or pretending to grope a sleeping guy's junk, then I'd expect them to step down from any leadership positions too.
I had to think about this. What about frat boys drawing dicks on each other's faces when they sleep? When guys do this kind of stuff to guys, I don't view it the same way as when guys do this to women. Guy-on-guy harassment is more of a prank.

Probably because I believe rape culture is real and every woman I know has a story about being harassed/attacked/groped, etc.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 16th November 2017 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:19 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But it's only ONE accuser...........

Yeah, the double standard in this thread is astonishing.
You know if Franken had an 'R" after his name rather then a "D" some of the people defending him would be screaming for his blood.........
You are ignoring all the arguments for why only one accusation is not enough and adding your own false assumptions. How about addressing the actual arguments instead of your straw reason?
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:19 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's not like he grabbed her in the dressing room and forced a kiss on her.
That is exactly what he did! He insisted that they "rehearse" and then ended sticking his tongue in her mouth.

"I'm guessing when she worked at Hooters she endured a lot worse than someone writing a skit she was to kiss them in."

Not slut shaming, tho, by the way, here is a link to relevant bikini pictures...

This thread absolutely blows me away
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:21 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You are ignoring all the arguments for why only one accusation is not enough and adding your own false assumptions. How about addressing the actual arguments instead of your straw reason?
There are none, it was completely made up out of whole cloth and the entire argument that there has to be a pattern is patently offensive.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:22 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's as common as dirt. It's what people do when they live together in groups. They joke around.
Just because something is "common as dirt" doesn't make it right. Once upon a time slavery was "common as dirt" too.

And personally I see nothing funny about pretending or actually sexually harassing or assaulting someone else.

Quote:
'Grabbing pussy because they let you' is not 'locker room talk'. That was Trump's excuse for his behavior, denying it was true.
Seriously, you need to listen to yourself for a moment.... you are blasting Trump for his excusing his behaviour all while excusing other's similar behaviours in exactly the same way, by calling it "Messing about" and "joking"

Quote:
I'm sorry, I just can't agree that every little offense taken is on that scale you speak of.

Don't get on an elevator if there is a lone woman on it lest you frighten her.
Now your arguments are just getting stupid. Merely standing in an Elevator with them is not assuming any form of control of another person. Pretending to, or actually, groping them without consent is.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:23 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The fact that he's in a leadership position is exactly why the penalty should be severe. If he was a Joe Shmoe that no one knew and did it at an office party, then an apology and a mark on his employment record might be enough, but when he is a leader of the country, the penalty he gets will create a message that goes out to everyone as to if this behaviour is acceptable or not. If he stood down, then that message is a very loud "Hell no it isn't" if he gets a slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket, then it tacitly gives approve to this sort of degrading behaviour, it tells men across the US that it is acceptable to treat women like play things for their own amusement, and the more powerful you are, the more acceptable it is. There is already mixed messages on this with Hollywood trying to do the right thing, while the Republicans are split as to what to say. This isn't the right time to enhance that split message by saying this sort of behaviour is okay.
This.

This also entails that Bill Clinton should become persona non grata.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:23 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not if you think Moore's should end........

If you give one a pass, you need to give both a pass.
Wait, but you just said one's not as bad as the other... don't you think that some reasonable person might think that the lesser act doesn't disqualify the person from office while the other doesn't?
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:27 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This.

This also entails that Bill Clinton should become persona non grata.
This
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:28 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Just because something is "common as dirt" doesn't make it right. Once upon a time slavery was "common as dirt" too.

And personally I see nothing funny about pretending or actually sexually harassing or assaulting someone else.

Seriously, you need to listen to yourself for a moment.... you are blasting Trump for his excusing his behaviour all while excusing other's similar behaviours in exactly the same way, by calling it "Messing about" and "joking"
Apples and oranges. I agree to disagree with you.

Harassment, via pictures, yes, that can be wrong and be a problem. Every bit of hazing, joking, embarrassing pictures, no matter the context, it's part of bonding. It sounds like you are drawing the line at no one should play a joke on another no matter what. And maybe you think I'm drawing it where I am not. Franken isn't touching her, it's a joke.

Pouring warm water on your sleeping coworker's crotch is going too far.

Video of your roommate's horrid snoring is a joke. Taking videos of someone in the shower is going too far.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Now your arguments are just getting stupid. Merely standing in an Elevator with them is not assuming any form of control of another person. Pretending to, or actually, groping them without consent is.
I take it you are not familiar with elevatorgate?
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:28 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Wait, but you just said one's not as bad as the other... don't you think that some reasonable person might think that the lesser act doesn't disqualify the person from office while the other doesn't?
Just use the sliding scale of sexual assault works every time
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:29 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is exactly what he did! He insisted that they "rehearse" and then ended sticking his tongue in her mouth.

"I'm guessing when she worked at Hooters she endured a lot worse than someone writing a skit she was to kiss them in."

Not slut shaming, tho, by the way, here is a link to relevant bikini pictures...

This thread absolutely blows me away
We've seen it all before, with Bill Clinton back in the 1990s. "If you drag a hundred dollar bill through a trailer park you never know what you'll find."

The good news is that Franken's not Bubba and this isn't the 1990s, so it looks like he should get ready for life under the bus, because he's about to get thrown under it.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:30 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The GOP brought up an accusation based on an SNL skit proposal Franken made, see my above post. The voters didn't care.
And that was their decision to make, same this time.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:32 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Funny, that sounds an awful lot like what the Moore supporters are saying.....
You will have to elaborate because I've heard nothing similar from Moore's defenders. They seem to think that he is being framed by the Liberal media. Does anyone here think Franken is being framed?



Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Who cares?

We're talking about Franken, not Moore. What Moore did isn't relevant, unless, as noted, making sure each side's slaps on the wrist are properly and accurately tallied for future "Whataboutism" is like super important you.

Why does a worse case somewhere matter outside of ideological point scoring? It doesn't change what what Franken did. We're not grading on a curve.

You might as well go "Well this lady was harassed by let's not forget this other lady that was hit by a meteorite."

Oh right because meteorites aren't partisan. If there was a Republican meteorite you would be doing that.

Be an American, be a Human, be something other than just a Democrat for thirty seconds and care about what happened to this women.
Someone said the punishment should be the same. Which is a stark black and white mentality that does not belong in justice. It ignores all the messy nuance and context of the real world.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:32 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I had to think about this. What about frat boys drawing dicks on each other's faces when they sleep? When guys do this kind of stuff to guys, I don't view it the same way as when guys do this to women. Guy-on-guy harassment is more of a prank.

Probably because I believe rape culture is real and every woman I know has a story about being harassed/attacked/groped, etc.
This is kind of my point. We give people passes on their bad behaviour because it's "just a prank" and that allows it to become acceptable to do. It's time we stopped seeing it as acceptable behaviour when it quite clearly isn't.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:33 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's as common as dirt. It's what people do when they live together in groups. They joke around.

'Grabbing pussy because they let you' is not 'locker room talk'. That was Trump's excuse for his behavior, denying it was true.

I'm sorry, I just can't agree that every little offense taken is on that scale you speak of.

Don't get on an elevator if there is a lone woman on it lest you frighten her.
Elevatorgate involved a man who asked a woman to come back to his room. She declined. He did not force the issue, grope her or pursue any action beyond that. No harassment there, just a dude that got shot down.

Franken wrote a skit that included a kiss. He then insisted on a practice session. Why would the practice session need a real kiss? Actors talk with each other about what is acceptable in these kinds of scenes; there is consent. Marlon Brando did not obtain consent from Maria Schneider for what he was about to do to her in "Last Tango in Paris," and I'm sure you can see why that was a problem. While obviously not on the scale of the "Paris" scene, essentially the same thing happened here; Franken did not obtain consent for a real kiss from Tweeden and she did not like it. Then he took a picture pretending to grab her boobs while she was sleeping.

Now, I wouldn't go so far as to call Franken a monster. But his behavior is on the same spectrum as any other sexual harasser in the history of sexual harassment. You can argue that this was minor sexual harassment if you want to. I argue that any sexual harassment is unacceptable.

Moore? He should drop out of the race. Trump? He never should have been elected. O'Reilley and Ailes? Already given the boot and with good reason. Franken? It's time for him to step down.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:36 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The GOP brought up an accusation based on an SNL skit proposal Franken made, see my above post. The voters didn't care.
Surely you can see the difference between a comedic skit proposal and actually harassing someone outside of a skit?
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:38 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
We've seen it all before, with Bill Clinton back in the 1990s. "If you drag a hundred dollar bill through a trailer park you never know what you'll find."

The good news is that Franken's not Bubba and this isn't the 1990s, so it looks like he should get ready for life under the bus, because he's about to get thrown under it.
Yeah, I noted quite a bit of Bubba in this thread:

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

Lots of references to "the woman" with people not deigning to actually use her name, even when they were linking to "the woman's" bikini shots.....

Dehumanize, shame, deny...

Real eye opener here....
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:42 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Apples and oranges. I agree to disagree with you.
I see it as red apples vs green apples.

Quote:
Harassment, via pictures, yes, that can be wrong and be a problem. Every bit of hazing, joking, embarrassing pictures, no matter the context, it's part of bonding. It sounds like you are drawing the line at no one should play a joke on another no matter what. And maybe you think I'm drawing it where I am not. Franken isn't touching her, it's a joke.

Pouring warm water on your sleeping coworker's crotch is going too far.

Video of your roommate's horrid snoring is a joke. Taking videos of someone in the shower is going too far.
The problem here is that you are comparing benign but potentially humiliating behaviours, such as video taping a friend snoring or playing a prank without sexual connotations to things that do have sexual connotations or are clearly sexual harassment in the least. Pretending to, or actually, groping someone who passd out is quite different to shaving their eyebrow or putting their hand in warm water. (though I'd actually say that even shaving an eyebrow these days might be too going too far to be honest.) I have no issue with pranking and joking and bonding, you can do that without the sexual references, innuendos, and harassment. You don't have to squeeze a woman's boobs (or pretend to squeeze them) to bond!

Quote:
I take it you are not familiar with elevatorgate?
Familiar enough to know that more happened than just "standing in the same elevator."
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:43 PM   #261
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Still in the process of reading thread, but have to voice my disgust at this horrible post (and kinda hoping or not hoping it's parody):

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Hmmm, people expect an actor to kiss that, and NOT slip her the tongue?
Yes, absolutely, 100% yes.

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
So, we're not supposed to "slut shame",
Exactly.

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
but Geez, men are not eunuchs. Not even actors.
Men are not slaves of their penises. Or are you?
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:45 PM   #262
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FYI....

Coservatives need to shut the **** up about sexual assault and let liberals take care of this. You people lost that right when you voted trump in.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:46 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I had to think about this. What about frat boys drawing dicks on each other's faces when they sleep? When guys do this kind of stuff to guys, I don't view it the same way as when guys do this to women. Guy-on-guy harassment is more of a prank.
Man, some of the stuff my brother showed me while he was at a prestigious military academy made me very uncomfortable . . . I'm in the camp that such behavior is also sexual harassment and shouldn't happen. The difference is that it seems to be an accepted part of the culture in such environments; nobody seems bothered by it and can appreciate the pranks as the jokes they are intended to be. But I'd be willing to bet that it makes some of the guys it happens to uncomfortable. In this case, it's clear that Tweeden did not view it as a joke.

Quote:
Probably because I believe rape culture is real and every woman I know has a story about being harassed/attacked/groped, etc.
I never really accepted the rape culture idea but, Jesus . . . I think I have to rethink my naive view of the world.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:46 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Just use the sliding scale of sexual assault works every time
Whether you like it or not, there is a sliding scale. Pretending to grope someone while they are asleep is a much lesser offence than pinning them to the ground and forcing parts of your body inside theirs. Our Justice Systems agree on this, otherwise there wouldn't be both graduated laws and sentencing, rather everyone would be charged under the same law and get the exact same sentence.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:49 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
FYI....

Coservatives need to shut the **** up about sexual assault and let liberals take care of this. You people lost that right when you voted trump in.
Luckily, you never had the right to demand that people "shut the **** up."
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:49 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Elevatorgate involved a man who asked a woman to come back to his room. She declined. He did not force the issue, grope her or pursue any action beyond that. No harassment there, just a dude that got shot down.

Franken wrote a skit that included a kiss. He then insisted on a practice session. Why would the practice session need a real kiss? Actors talk with each other about what is acceptable in these kinds of scenes; there is consent. Marlon Brando did not obtain consent from Maria Schneider for what he was about to do to her in "Last Tango in Paris," and I'm sure you can see why that was a problem. While obviously not on the scale of the "Paris" scene, essentially the same thing happened here; Franken did not obtain consent for a real kiss from Tweeden and she did not like it. Then he took a picture pretending to grab her boobs while she was sleeping.

Now, I wouldn't go so far as to call Franken a monster. But his behavior is on the same spectrum as any other sexual harasser in the history of sexual harassment. You can argue that this was minor sexual harassment if you want to. I argue that any sexual harassment is unacceptable.

Moore? He should drop out of the race. Trump? He never should have been elected. O'Reilley and Ailes? Already given the boot and with good reason. Franken? It's time for him to step down.
OMG.... Hell just froze over!
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:50 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
There are a number of people on this thread I will rank as hypocrites because they have blasted...quite rightly...Moore for his actions, but are making excuses for Al Franken.
BTW the Dems in Congress seem to be playing this very well so far.
Out of curiosity, are you also keeping tabs on the people who defended, downplayed or ignored Moore, but are in here clutching their pearls in righteous indignation over Franken?
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:51 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
OMG.... Hell just froze over!
It does that occasionally during discussions here . . .
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:55 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
FYI....

Coservatives need to shut the **** up about sexual assault and let liberals take care of this. You people lost that right when you voted trump in.
I am conservative and didn't vote for Trump, do I still need to shut up and lose my right to say that sexual assault is bad?
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:55 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Luckily, you never had the right to demand that people "shut the **** up."
16 other choices.

16.
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Old 16th November 2017, 04:58 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Scootch View Post
I am conservative and didn't vote for Trump, do I still need to shut up and lose my right to say that sexual assault is bad?
I should have been more specific. Trump tards.
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Old 16th November 2017, 05:02 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Out of curiosity, are you also keeping tabs on the people who defended, downplayed or ignored Moore, but are in here clutching their pearls in righteous indignation over Franken?
Yes, but they are in fewer numbers here then the Franken supporters.

And this is about as good an example of "What Aboutism" as I have seen.
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Old 16th November 2017, 05:03 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
We've seen it all before, with Bill Clinton back in the 1990s. "If you drag a hundred dollar bill through a trailer park you never know what you'll find."

The good news is that Franken's not Bubba and this isn't the 1990s, so it looks like he should get ready for life under the bus, because he's about to get thrown under it.
Yup.
And I suspect, one way or another, Roy Moore will join him there.
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Old 16th November 2017, 05:06 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
You will have to elaborate because I've heard nothing similar from Moore's defenders. They seem to think that he is being framed by the Liberal media. Does anyone here think Franken is being framed?





Someone said the punishment should be the same. Which is a stark black and white mentality that does not belong in justice. It ignores all the messy nuance and context of the real world.
We are not talking about criminal punishment, but about whether the actions render somebody unfit to serve in an office as high as senator.
IMHO both have done so.
Now criminal charges are a different story (thought I know that the statute of limitations has ran out on what Moore is accused of)
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Old 16th November 2017, 05:09 PM   #275
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Well I am talking about criminal charges. I think Moore should be in prison the way Weiner currently is and I don't think Franken should be.
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Old 16th November 2017, 05:15 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Well I am talking about criminal charges. I think Moore should be in prison the way Weiner currently is and I don't think Franken should be.
Agreed, but we are talking not about criminal charges but about fitness for Public Office. I think what Franken did was bad enough so that he should no longer serve in the US Senate. You can do thing that are not illegal but are bad enough so your career as an elected official should be over.
And there is also it would make the Dems look like total hypocrites when they go after Moore.
ANyway, Franken is going to be tossed under the bus by the Democrats.one way or the other.
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Old 16th November 2017, 05:19 PM   #277
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And,unless new recent accusers come forth,Roy Moore is not going to jail. The statute of Limitations has ran out on the crimes he could be accused of.
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Old 16th November 2017, 05:19 PM   #278
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So far the liberals taking care of it consist of blatant slut shaming and whataboutism.

So. ....
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Old 16th November 2017, 05:21 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
...
Lots of references to "the woman" with people not deigning to actually use her name, even when they were linking to "the woman's" bikini shots.....

Dehumanize, shame, deny...

Real eye opener here....
While I think that Ginger's arguments are biased and kinda miss the mark, you keep misconstruing them badly.

Ginger certainly did not shame Tweeden by referencing her well-known career in being a sexy model, as in "shame on the victim, she had it coming".

The argument is rather this: Although it is wrong, it is very likely that Tweeden has experienced a number of sexual harrassments and perhaps even assaults in her life - and very likely more than many other women her age because she is a sexy model and many men perceive her as a pin-up more than as a human being with dignity. And therefore, Ginger seems to question why Tweeden has come out to complain about Al Franken, but not about any other instances of having beem harrassed.

Again, I don't think that argument hits a worthy mark (there may be many reasons - perhaps there really were no other incidence worth telling; perhaps no other incidents involving significant leaders; perhaps Tweeden is only starting to come to terms with past incidents, and more will come out soon), but it is a different argument from what you have mocked, maliciously, in several posts.
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Old 16th November 2017, 05:23 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Well I am talking about criminal charges. I think Moore should be in prison the way Weiner currently is ...
Utter nonsense.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So far the liberals taking care of it consist of blatant slut shaming ...
Utter, vile nonsense.
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