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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 18th November 2017, 06:54 PM   #81
Darat
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
There's the rub.

I'm concerned that Donald's tough guy act will push Lil' Kim into action.
Then, launching our own would not be illegal or overly severe.

But it would still be, arguably, Donald's fault.

I have zero belief that Trump wants to fire the missiles. It's a deterrent and he knows that.
But it's a terrible corner that he could paint himself into.
Do you not remember in his campaign how he asked why couldn't the USA use nuclear weapons?
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Old 18th November 2017, 07:16 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Do you not remember in his campaign how he asked why couldn't the USA use nuclear weapons?

I remember a lot of stupid things he's said.

The only way to sleep at night is to realize how few he actually believes.


(But yes... you're right. That's a good example of some of the scarier crap he's spewed.)
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Old 18th November 2017, 08:02 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
This is what I've been curious about.
What was the end-game? Why relax the ban? What's the rationale?

I sure hope it just isn't that "My sons like to hunt elephants"...
I'm pretty sure that was the original reason. Then he belated learned about Donnie's embarrassing contacts with Russia and changed his mind.
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Old 18th November 2017, 08:24 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I don't know that there are such people, but if there were...

...Trump probably already knows them.
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Old 18th November 2017, 09:26 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
<snip>

I have zero belief that Trump wants to fire the missiles. It's a deterrent and he knows that.

<snip>

You're talking about the guy who asked what good nukes were if we didn't use them.
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Old 18th November 2017, 09:52 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You're talking about the guy who asked what good nukes were if we didn't use them.

Is there an echo in here?


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Old 18th November 2017, 10:00 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why? He only said he wouldn't follow an illegal order, which is the credo in the armed services anyway. It appears Trump has the legal power to decide to use nuclear weapons, therefore Hyten would not be following an illegal order if Trump decided to use nuclear weapons.

And who decides what a legal order is, anyway? Does he have a list? Does he say, "Wait, I have to go and consult with my legal team?

You're right. Trump has the power.

And if he refuses, at that moment it doesn't even matter if the order is eventually deemed legal or not, because at that moment he is clearly guilty of refusing to obey a direct order.

His justification for doing that that gets adjudicated later. At that moment he is wrong, and someone else will take his place.

Until someone who does follow a direct order turns up.
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Old 19th November 2017, 12:40 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
And who decides what a legal order is, anyway? Does he have a list? Does he say, "Wait, I have to go and consult with my legal team?

You're right. Trump has the power.

And if he refuses, at that moment it doesn't even matter if the order is eventually deemed legal or not, because at that moment he is clearly guilty of refusing to obey a direct order.

His justification for doing that that gets adjudicated later. At that moment he is wrong, and someone else will take his place.

Until someone who does follow a direct order turns up.
This is exactly why we need specific rules of nuclear engagement which personnel would indeed be responsible for knowing. I don't think there's much hope of getting "no first strikes" on the list, but it's insane to leave that kind of decision up to one guy.
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Old 19th November 2017, 02:04 AM   #89
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Trump authorized the use of the MOAB in Afghanistan where it made zero tactical sense and only minor strategic sense for some "shock and awe".

Trump might send a "tactical" nuke somewhere just because Obama never dared to.
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Old 19th November 2017, 02:14 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
This is what I've been curious about.
What was the end-game? Why relax the ban? What's the rationale?

I sure hope it just isn't that "My sons like to hunt elephants"...
He promised to reverse all the decisions made by Obama.
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Old 19th November 2017, 07:25 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
He promised to reverse all the decisions made by Obama.

That's really all that matters to him. His offer to change Denali back to Mt. McKinley is another example. Petty vindictiveness as far as the eye can see.
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Old 19th November 2017, 08:19 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
He promised to reverse all the decisions made by Obama.
I would love to see the poo storm if our commander-in-ept overturns this order:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/wayne..._12639760.html
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Old 19th November 2017, 09:06 AM   #93
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Trump Family Business Worth A Fraction Of What President Has Touted

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b045cf4371dfde

Some of the discrepancy is due to a downturn in business, but the rest is credited to an overheated imagination, according to Crain’s New York Business reporter Aaron Elstein, who examined the numbers.

In 2016 the Trump Organization reported nearly $9.5 billion in revenues. But recent public filings by the president indicate that the company actually earned only as much as $700 million that year, Crain’s said.

Crain’s this month bounced the Trump Organization from the No. 3 spot on its list of largest privately held New York City companies down to No. 40.

down an astonishing 92 places (to No. 248), in Forbes’ rankings of richest men in America.
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Old 19th November 2017, 11:05 AM   #94
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Now that the three basketball players are out of China and saved from years in jail, LaVar Ball, the father of LiAngelo, is unaccepting of what I did for his son and that shoplifting is no big deal. I should have left them in jail!
His limitless childishness is still surprising.
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Old 19th November 2017, 11:43 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why? He only said he wouldn't follow an illegal order, which is the credo in the armed services anyway. It appears Trump has the legal power to decide to use nuclear weapons, therefore Hyten would not be following an illegal order if Trump decided to use nuclear weapons.
This is of course clearly FALSE. Trump has the command authority. That does not mean that any use of that authority is ipso facto legal. If Trump orders nuklear strikes on San Francisco and Boston, that would of course be illegal. Similarly, unilateral attacks on foreign powers are illegal. Genocide is illegal.

Hyten certainly implies that some conceivable orders by Trump can be illegal.
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Old 19th November 2017, 11:50 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
And who decides what a legal order is, anyway? Does he have a list? Does he say, "Wait, I have to go and consult with my legal team?
I am actually pretty certain that they have something like lists. At that strategic command level, it is highly important to understand the legal implications of big military decisions, and the military typically plans ahead of time for many conceivable future situations.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You're right. Trump has the power.

And if he refuses, at that moment it doesn't even matter if the order is eventually deemed legal or not, because at that moment he is clearly guilty of refusing to obey a direct order.
A soldier, particularly an officer, can also be guilty of obeying orders: When the order is clearly illegal. You see, "I was following orders" was the standard defense of Nazi criminals. The Nuremberg trials established the principle that this is no defense, iow that orders must be disobeyed if it constitutes a war crime or a crime against humanity.

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
His justification for doing that that gets adjudicated later. At that moment he is wrong, and someone else will take his place.

Until someone who does follow a direct order turns up.
This is of course a possibility. But I am not sure about the efficacy of new hirees in that particular job. The procedures to program and launch nukes require training. Trump's usual arse-lickers are incompetent. It's doubtful they'll actually manage to get any nuke out before the plan is spoiled and revolution removes Trump from office.
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Old 19th November 2017, 12:17 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I am actually pretty certain that they have something like lists. At that strategic command level, it is highly important to understand the legal implications of big military decisions, and the military typically plans ahead of time for many conceivable future situations.


A soldier, particularly an officer, can also be guilty of obeying orders: When the order is clearly illegal. You see, "I was following orders" was the standard defense of Nazi criminals. The Nuremberg trials established the principle that this is no defense, iow that orders must be disobeyed if it constitutes a war crime or a crime against humanity.


This is of course a possibility. But I am not sure about the efficacy of new hirees in that particular job. The procedures to program and launch nukes require training. Trump's usual arse-lickers are incompetent. It's doubtful they'll actually manage to get any nuke out before the plan is spoiled and revolution removes Trump from office.
Your answers should be here:

https://www.amazon.com/Killing-Comma.../dp/1137495804

The crux: what makes a command lawful? Note that U.S. law may differ from Law of War.
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Old 19th November 2017, 12:40 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Your answers should be here:

https://www.amazon.com/Killing-Comma.../dp/1137495804

The crux: what makes a command lawful? Note that U.S. law may differ from Law of War.
Perhaps it does, but it may not (I am pretty sure it doesn't: International treaties that the USA is a party of are supreme law of the land as per the constitution; customary international law applies regardless of whether or how it is reflected in national law. Interpretations vary and change, of course. And enforceability is a whole nuther can-o-worms).
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Old 19th November 2017, 01:41 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Your answers should be here:

https://www.amazon.com/Killing-Comma.../dp/1137495804

The crux: what makes a command lawful? Note that U.S. law may differ from Law of War.

LOL.

You link to a $112 retail scholarly monograph, with nary a synopsis or comment on the content.
I don't see how that was helpful. Was it meant to be dismissive?
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Old 19th November 2017, 01:50 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Did he do it because getting them out was the right thing to do or for the praise he was expecting to follow?
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Old 19th November 2017, 02:37 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Did he do it because getting them out was the right thing to do or for the praise he was expecting to follow?
Well, he got the thanks from all three players. It's one of the fathers who appeared ungrateful, so The PDJT had to hit back. Prick.
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Old 19th November 2017, 02:45 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
This is what I've been curious about.
What was the end-game? Why relax the ban? What's the rationale?

I sure hope it just isn't that "My sons like to hunt elephants"...
Maybe that's all they can hit.
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Old 19th November 2017, 05:37 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
LOL.

You link to a $112 retail scholarly monograph, with nary a synopsis or comment on the content.
I don't see how that was helpful. Was it meant to be dismissive?
Not all answers can be found outside a paywall.

If you want, I could dig through all my National Security Decision Making classwork, which is somewhere in a box in my crawlspace. Be patient, it will take time.

Or you could dig through Google Scholar.

IANAL.
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Old 19th November 2017, 05:42 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Not all answers can be found outside a paywall.

If you want, I could dig through all my National Security Decision Making classwork, which is somewhere in a box in my crawlspace. Be patient, it will take time.

Or you could dig through Google Scholar.

IANAL.

Saying you have applicable knowledge of the topic just makes it worse.
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Old 19th November 2017, 06:20 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Saying you have applicable knowledge of the topic just makes it worse.
Way back in the hazy past (6-7 years ago plus a memory dump). I've gotten a graduate degree in an entirely different subject since then and did only a year of Joint work since the JPME phase 1. I searched what I could online and the best I could find was that pricey reference.
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Old 19th November 2017, 06:24 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Did he do it because getting them out was the right thing to do or for the praise he was expecting to follow?
I think leaving them there for trial and punishment was the right thing to do.
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Old 19th November 2017, 07:54 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think leaving them there for trial and punishment was the right thing to do.
I agree with that.
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Old 19th November 2017, 08:33 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Way back in the hazy past (6-7 years ago plus a memory dump). I've gotten a graduate degree in an entirely different subject since then and did only a year of Joint work since the JPME phase 1. I searched what I could online and the best I could find was that pricey reference.
More direct sources:

JP 1-04 Legal Support to Military Operations
(Basically, an order can be considered legal for course of action determination if your staff Judge Advocate says so)

Guidance for Law of War:
DODD 2311.01E, DOD Law of War Program
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Old 19th November 2017, 08:49 PM   #109
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Attached: what I had to dig through just to get a couple of links.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20171119_213503.jpg (134.1 KB, 18 views)
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Old 19th November 2017, 08:55 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Attached: what I had to dig through just to get a couple of links.

Can you maybe spare us the useless humble-brags?
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Old 19th November 2017, 09:12 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Can you maybe spare us the useless humble-brags?
No, because I also have outstanding physical prowess, am a cover model, and can do the Kessel Run in less than twelve Parsecs, and I want to make sure you know that.
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Old 20th November 2017, 03:54 AM   #112
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Trump Tweets

Quote:
Sen. Jeff Flake(y), who is unelectable in the Great State of Arizona (quit race, anemic polls) was caught (purposely) on “mike” saying bad things about your favorite President. He’ll be a NO on tax cuts because his political career anyway is “toast.”
A few things.

1) The favorite president is Barack Obama, whose shoes you aren't fit to shine, and will never fill.

2) It's 'mic,' which is the thing you were wearing when you bragged about sexually assaulting women.

3) You are an idiot.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...88590344196096

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Old 20th November 2017, 03:56 AM   #113
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This one is a doozy

Quote:
Shoplifting is a very big deal in China, as it should be (5-10 years in jail), but not to father LaVar. Should have gotten his son out during my next trip to China instead. China told them why they were released. Very ungrateful!
Seems you get second class service if you don't praise him.
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:00 AM   #114
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He tweeted on the trophy hunting again but it hasn't made his position any clearer.

Quote:
Big-game trophy decision will be announced next week but will be very hard pressed to change my mind that this horror show in any way helps conservation of Elephants or any other animal.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...97369655808001
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:02 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
He tweeted on the trophy hunting again but it hasn't made his position any clearer.



https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...97369655808001
It's almost as if forgot he was the one who decided last week to allow the "horror show".
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:09 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's almost as if forgot he was the one who decided last week to allow the "horror show".
He probably did forget. He's not right in the head.
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:16 AM   #117
Captain_Swoop
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Quote:
Border Patrol Officer killed at Southern Border, another badly hurt. We will seek out and bring to justice those responsible. We will, and must, build the Wall!
Surely this is the time for 'thoughts and prayers' not exploiting deaths for politics. Doesn't he claim to be offended by that?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...20488642617344
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:30 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Hyten would be the one Trump would take the action unilaterally through. He is the next step in the execution of an order to fire.

Trump would need to fire him first, and have the next person in line take over.
Except that it does not touch on what is an illegal order. Is ordering the nuking of say any of Syria, Iran or North Korea considered an illegal order? Certainly ording conventional strikes is perfectly legal on all such targets.

Also there is the point that not all orders go through him, if at say 12:30 on a tuesday after a twitter exchange with Kim Jong Un he decides to launch nukes at north korea, he does not go through the commander of the nuclear forces, it would go through the current duty officer. As attacking north korea is a legal order is would be carried out.
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:33 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post

Way to completely misrepresent what you quoted in your own post.

Do posters here really think that there are people Trump could hire that would launch nukes at his whim without any forethought? You watch too much TV or something. This is ridiculous but it makes great news!
Trump doesn't need to hire them, the military has been making sure that orders originating from the president are never questioned for decades. The only checks on nuclear attacks are that the order comes from the president. Even asking about checks on the presidents authority to order nuclear attacks for any reason is enough to get to kicked out of the military.


http://www.slate.com/articles/life/t...clear_age.html
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Old 20th November 2017, 04:39 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
This is of course clearly FALSE. Trump has the command authority. That does not mean that any use of that authority is ipso facto legal. If Trump orders nuklear strikes on San Francisco and Boston, that would of course be illegal. Similarly, unilateral attacks on foreign powers are illegal. Genocide is illegal.
So his ordering of air strikes against syria earlier this year would be illegal? You certainly seem to be the first person to seriously suggest that.
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