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Tags biology , intelligent design

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Old 23rd November 2017, 07:08 AM   #41
xterra
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MikeG, are you asserting that an omniscient, omnipotent entity could not have found a more intelligent way to construct a planet, so that the things we need are placed conveniently for our use?

What kinda bumbling idiot do you take that entity to be, anyway?
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Old 23rd November 2017, 07:19 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
as the early earth atmosphere would have been very different without vulcanism.
Earth's early atmosphere would have been quite toxic to land animals until the plants changed it.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 07:22 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
the early earth atmosphere would have been very different without vulcanism.
Logic was very important to the process.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 07:55 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes I have always thought this an interesting question. Does God have sexual apparatus for example? If so what does he use it for - apart from banging Mary 2000 years ago.
That's easy.
Quote:
God made man in his own image. Man, being a gentleman, returned the favor.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 08:03 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I think our planet is an example of crapy design.

Why do we have a molten core and tectonic plates, that move against each other causing earthquakes? In addition to this our spinning is slowing down, due to the friction of all that molten stuff, being pulled around by gravitational pulls from the Sun and Moon. I would have made our planet out of solid rock.

We'd all be dead, wouldn't we? There'd be no electromagnetic field.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 08:51 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
We'd all be dead, wouldn't we? There'd be no electromagnetic field.
Yup. The alternative is Mars.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 08:54 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
We'd all be dead, wouldn't we? There'd be no electromagnetic field.
So, alter the laws of physics so that it's either not needed, or emitter through a different process.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 09:18 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Yup. The alternative is Mars.
Over the course of 10,000 years?
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Old 23rd November 2017, 09:20 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So, alter the laws of physics so that it's either not needed, or emitter through a different process.
Yeah, this too. There are plenty of ways that God could give the earth a magnetic field without also introducing volcanoes, earthquakes, etc.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 01:26 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
We'd all be dead, wouldn't we? There'd be no electromagnetic field.

You are referring to those cosmic rays that would wipe us out no doubt. Couldn't God just wiggle his nose and get rid of them however?

Instead of just making things simple to start with, (the essence of good design is simplicity), we have all these complex situations we must provide other complex solution for.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 04:28 PM   #51
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The obvious one for me is the respiratory system. We evolved from four-legged mammals, their lungs drained out easily. Then we took to two feet , this meant that all of the mucus and crap migrated into our lungs. If we were designed , then we were designed to have respiratory diseases!
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Old 23rd November 2017, 04:37 PM   #52
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The lower back doesn't appear to be a great design, and I've been waiting days for one of our female members to describe the mis-match between a baby's head and the birth canal, let alone the odd angle that human babies have to navigate before they draw their first breath.
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Old 24th November 2017, 12:53 PM   #53
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Yes, I had similar discussions on other threads that got quite heated


This is from 2007

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There are features that evolutionary theory can predict wouldn't happen, just as there are features which one wouldn't expect of a benign and competent designer. Let alone an omnscient and benign designer.

Evolutionary theory would predict that if there is sufficient selective advantage, certain traits would evolve independently on several occasions.

If a trait evolves in one organism its descendents may or may not have this trait, but you would not expect to see this trait being suddenly "reused" in its entirety in another, unrelated organism, as opposed to evolving independently inboth cases.

Something that evolutionary theory would predict to not occur:

Luckily we now have some examples of intelligent design:



The important point here is that this mouse has the same 700-letter sequence as the jellyfish Green Fluorescent Protein, including those parts of the sequence which are unimportant.

That wouldn't have happened by chance, so it is safe to conclude that this was an intelligent designer reusing the jellyfish GFP gene-sequence.

Lateral transimssion of genes has been observed, but the sudden appearence of a fluorescent mouse, and genes from a jellyfish without many other interveaning organisms would militate against this being natural.


An omniscient and benign designer would get things right first time, if such a designer was also competent.

So lets remove omniscience, as even Behe agrees that there has been incremental improvement...

If a competant designer manages to design something, then this designer does not waste effort redesigning the same feature from scratch every time, but reuses as much of the design as possible.

There are many examples of organisms that have independentently evolved extra sets of eyes, but didn't "reuse" their original "design" of eye. The mammal retina is poorly designed compared to the squid's. A competent designer would not waste all that effort to redisgn something and then get parts of it wrong.

So lets remove competent and benign.

That leaves us with an incompetent and/or malign designer, or none at all...
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Old 25th November 2017, 06:11 AM   #54
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Incompatibility of blood groups has been mentioned already, but we also need to acknowledge that the immune systems is so designed to attack tissue from other humans, despite the fact that one human cannot be a parasite or pathogen within another human.

If we are to believe that an intelligent designer made us, then we would have to ask WTF he was smoking at the time.
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Old 25th November 2017, 06:15 AM   #55
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ETA: HUBERT CUMBERDALE

David Attenborough has mentioned river blindness as another example.

My new favourite is the recent discovery that the fungal parasite which invades ants and makes it climb high before bursting out of its head doesn't hijack the brain... just disconnect the brain from the muscles and controls its muscles.
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UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 25th November 2017 at 06:17 AM.
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Old 27th November 2017, 12:12 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
ETA: HUBERT CUMBERDALE

David Attenborough has mentioned river blindness as another example.

My new favourite is the recent discovery that the fungal parasite which invades ants and makes it climb high before bursting out of its head doesn't hijack the brain... just disconnect the brain from the muscles and controls its muscles.
With some graphical pictures from Sir Attenborough to disturb your breakfast:
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I AGREE

And according to the Guardian, these species of fungi already existed 48 million years ago.

I would hesitate, though, to call this evidence of "unintelligent design". At most, it's evidence of evil design, as if the designer wanted his creatures to bring maximum suffering on each other (but then, we knew that already, the first 40-or-so books written about this purported designer witness his lust for blood and mass murder across the spectrum of species kinds).

And the lifecycle of that Cordyceps fungus parasite is child's play compared to that of Plasmodium, the malaria parasite, which has over half a dozen life stages and lives in very particular parts of both its mosquito and its human host. I'm frankly surprised that Behe et.al. haven't already yelled "irreducible complexity" about that.
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Old 27th November 2017, 12:38 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
With some graphical pictures from Sir Attenborough to disturb your breakfast:
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I AGREE

And according to the Guardian, these species of fungi already existed 48 million years ago.

I would hesitate, though, to call this evidence of "unintelligent design". At most, it's evidence of evil design, as if the designer wanted his creatures to bring maximum suffering on each other (but then, we knew that already, the first 40-or-so books written about this purported designer witness his lust for blood and mass murder across the spectrum of species kinds).

And the lifecycle of that Cordyceps fungus parasite is child's play compared to that of Plasmodium, the malaria parasite, which has over half a dozen life stages and lives in very particular parts of both its mosquito and its human host. I'm frankly surprised that Behe et.al. haven't already yelled "irreducible complexity" about that.
Darwin mentioned the Ichneumon wasp lifecycle.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 27th November 2017, 04:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Darwin mentioned the Ichneumon wasp lifecycle.
I presume you mean the quote that's cited here on the blog "Dwindling in Unbelief":
Quote:
I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent & omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice. -- From a letter to Asa Gray, 22 May 1860
That blogpost also has some amusing "explanations" from the apologetics, ranging from "it's Adam's fault" to "God is a sadist" to "God is powerless against the laws of nature" (what?).

Apropos cats and mice: do you know if that green-glowing mouse in your previous post is commercially available? My two cats have become quite the couch potatoes.
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Old 27th November 2017, 11:32 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I presume you mean the quote that's cited here on the blog "Dwindling in Unbelief":

That blogpost also has some amusing "explanations" from the apologetics, ranging from "it's Adam's fault" to "God is a sadist" to "God is powerless against the laws of nature" (what?).

Apropos cats and mice: do you know if that green-glowing mouse in your previous post is commercially available? My two cats have become quite the couch potatoes.
That's the jobbie

This is the Attenborough quote


Quote:
"I often get letters, quite frequently, from people who say how they like the programs a lot, but I never give credit to the almighty power that created nature, to which I reply and say, "Well, it's funny that the people, when they say that this is evidence of the almighty, always quote beautiful things, they always quote orchids and hummingbirds and butterflies and roses." But I always have to think too of a little boy sitting on the banks of a river in west Africa who has a worm boring through his eyeball, turning him blind before he's five years old, and I reply and say, "Well presumably the god you speak about created the worm as well," and now, I find that baffling to credit a merciful god with that action, and therefore it seems to me safer to show things that I know to be truth, truthful and factual, and allow people to make up their own minds about the moralities of this thing, or indeed the theology of this thing."

As an aside, the mouse was someone else's avatar at Badscience, we chose them because someone was arguing that there were no differences between inherited and acquired characteristics - my mouse had a rather obvious acquired characteristic, whilst the other mouse had a rather obvious inherited characteristic... or it would have done if it had been real (which I later discovered several years later).


There are GFP mice, and the very obvious GFP rabbit (Alba, picture here)

ETA: and a GFP mouse
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 27th November 2017 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 27th November 2017, 04:30 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
From that link:
Quote:
One of his more recent TV series, The Life of Mammals, makes numerous direct references to evolution, in particular human evolution.
Except on Dutch TV. In the Netherlands, the evangelical broadcaster EO bought the TV rights and they excised all references to evolution. Here's a list of changes in the first 6 minutes of episode 2, as compiled by Dutch biology professor Gerdien de Jong. Sir David was not amused when he heard of this; I hope the BBC has changed the licensing contracts since then. The EO regularly broadcasts nature documentaries; I stopped looking at them when I was 12 or so and was disappointed that after beautiful nature scenery, in the last five minutes they trotted out their imaginary friend.
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Old 27th November 2017, 06:58 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
From that link:

Except on Dutch TV. In the Netherlands, the evangelical broadcaster EO bought the TV rights and they excised all references to evolution. Here's a list of changes in the first 6 minutes of episode 2, as compiled by Dutch biology professor Gerdien de Jong. Sir David was not amused when he heard of this; I hope the BBC has changed the licensing contracts since then. The EO regularly broadcasts nature documentaries; I stopped looking at them when I was 12 or so and was disappointed that after beautiful nature scenery, in the last five minutes they trotted out their imaginary friend.
Wow. That's pretty disgusting.
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Old 27th November 2017, 07:37 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
From that link:

Except on Dutch TV. In the Netherlands, the evangelical broadcaster EO bought the TV rights and they excised all references to evolution. Here's a list of changes in the first 6 minutes of episode 2, as compiled by Dutch biology professor Gerdien de Jong. Sir David was not amused when he heard of this; I hope the BBC has changed the licensing contracts since then. The EO regularly broadcasts nature documentaries; I stopped looking at them when I was 12 or so and was disappointed that after beautiful nature scenery, in the last five minutes they trotted out their imaginary friend.
In the US, fundamentalist tub thumpers (many of them are not really that current with decent biblical scholarship & therefore know little of their favorite book) don't have to bother with expensive purchasing of rights. They simply take smaller bits quite out of context & twist them to fundie ends. This saves money for the upkeep of their mega-chuches which must be seen to be believed; in a wry sort of way they beggar the great cathedrals of Europe. And, while being filthy rich on the susceptible groundlings in the pit, they're every bit as dishonest as what Luther railed against (hey! exactly 500 years ago). Or they build "authentic replica arks" with modern supporting materials and charge $40/per to parade their sugar-coated fallacies.
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Old 27th November 2017, 08:45 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
I encountered a design flaw several days ago. The right-side temporal mandibular joint has begun to hurt when I chew. That joint is just forward of the ear canal.

If the condition continues, surgery might be necessary. While it is not clear to me how an orthopedic surgeon would get into the joint, one way would be through the canal. I know enough about the whole auditory system to think that this is Not A Good Idea.



(And just to add insult to real injury, the dentist charged me $95 to feel the joint as I moved my jaw, and say, "yep, that's a click in there." And wants me to get a night guard for a mere $600.)
Same here. My jaw locked up on me when I was 18. Had a temporary splint to let it relax.

The night guard is hands down the best money I ever spent. I wear it at night and to the gym. You won't regret it and it will likely keep the problem from getting worse.
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Old 27th November 2017, 09:34 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
In the US, fundamentalist tub thumpers (many of them are not really that current with decent biblical scholarship & therefore know little of their favorite book) don't have to bother with expensive purchasing of rights. They simply take smaller bits quite out of context & twist them to fundie ends. This saves money for the upkeep of their mega-chuches which must be seen to be believed; in a wry sort of way they beggar the great cathedrals of Europe. And, while being filthy rich on the susceptible groundlings in the pit, they're every bit as dishonest as what Luther railed against (hey! exactly 500 years ago). Or they build "authentic replica arks" with modern supporting materials and charge $40/per to parade their sugar-coated fallacies.
Or simply lie about the films they are making.
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Old 27th November 2017, 10:26 PM   #65
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Here's what I'd change:

=> Make teeth impervious to rot / decay / etc.
=> Create a robust uterine lining which is only replaced after childbirth - no more menstrual periods.
=> Replace our wimpy-ass fingernails and toenails with some serious talons. Retractable, of course.
=> Lastly, the ability to breathe underwater.
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Old 27th November 2017, 11:02 PM   #66
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That last one isn't just another missed opportunity of evolution. It has some basic physics against it. Your gills would need to be the size of a truck.
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Old 28th November 2017, 02:10 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Ozzie View Post
Here's what I'd change:

=> Make teeth impervious to rot / decay / etc.
=> Create a robust uterine lining which is only replaced after childbirth - no more menstrual periods.
=> Replace our wimpy-ass fingernails and toenails with some serious talons. Retractable, of course.
=> Lastly, the ability to breathe underwater.
I actually think that teeth already kick ass the way they are. We just treat them miserably by eating too much carbonhydrates.

As a guitar player, I like my fingernails the way they are (although being able to retract or extend them would be really nice). They are stable enough for most purposes, and can be formed and shortened easily.

Breathing under water would be a gimmick if we don't also get better under-water vision, ways to maintain body temperature (i.e. thick layers of fat?) etc. Good design is never all-purpose.
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Old 28th November 2017, 12:13 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
That last one isn't just another missed opportunity of evolution. It has some basic physics against it. Your gills would need to be the size of a truck.
What's to stop God from bending the laws of physics to make such gills possible? Or to make our lungs so that they could extract oxygen from water? Remember, we are quite literally playing God. Why limit ourselves?
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Old 28th November 2017, 12:16 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yeah, this too. There are plenty of ways that God could give the earth a magnetic field without also introducing volcanoes, earthquakes, etc.
Yeah. The point is that this whole complex, largely stochastic, deadly set of processes sure unfold as if there's no guiding intelligence behind them.
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Old 28th November 2017, 12:20 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Ozzie View Post
Here's what I'd change:

=> Make teeth impervious to rot / decay / etc.
=> Create a robust uterine lining which is only replaced after childbirth - no more menstrual periods.
=> Replace our wimpy-ass fingernails and toenails with some serious talons. Retractable, of course.
=> Lastly, the ability to breathe underwater.
There are far more basic ones to change.

The laryngeal nerve.
Our ability to choke on food - why not have completely separate breathing and eating openings?
The mamallian retina
The human back and its weaknesses
The human birth canal
The appendix
Hernias due to descending testes
Autoimmune diseases


lots of really rubbish design
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Old 28th November 2017, 12:27 PM   #71
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Intelligent Design shifted the goalposts by declaring there just had to be some steps unlikely to be doable by evolution, rather than that the design be literally a good one.

It still fails miserably at this because the number of cases they have listed (eyes, wings, rotating flagella, etc.) subsequently shot down, vastly outnumbers any remaining ones (if any), so one would have no statistical evidence that any will stand up to long-term scrutiny.
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The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

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Old 28th November 2017, 01:37 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
That last one isn't just another missed opportunity of evolution. It has some basic physics against it. Your gills would need to be the size of a truck.
There are plenty of fish much larger than humans whose gills are not "the size of a truck."
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Old 28th November 2017, 02:46 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
There are plenty of fish much larger than humans whose gills are not "the size of a truck."
Yes, they have a much slower metabolism than mammals.
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Old 28th November 2017, 02:55 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Intelligent Design shifted the goalposts by declaring there just had to be some steps unlikely to be doable by evolution, rather than that the design be literally a good one.

It still fails miserably at this because the number of cases they have listed (eyes, wings, rotating flagella, etc.) subsequently shot down, vastly outnumbers any remaining ones (if any), so one would have no statistical evidence that any will stand up to long-term scrutiny.
We can reject a designer who is both competent and benign. Which is the sort of designer they are trying to posit.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 28th November 2017, 03:06 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
There are far more basic ones to change.

The laryngeal nerve.
Our ability to choke on food - why not have completely separate breathing and eating openings?
The mamallian retina
The human back and its weaknesses
The human birth canal
The appendix
Hernias due to descending testes
Autoimmune diseases


lots of really rubbish design

Given that God was limited to making us in his own image he must also have these shortcomings.

We must target the real culprit ...... the one who made God!
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Old 28th November 2017, 03:23 PM   #76
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For the record, I think this is a stupid argument on both sides. Arguing about what God would or would not have done is like arguing what would have happened if Soap had lasted another season. It requires us to know not just God's capabilities, but also his plans. And one can always argue that he planned for us to be shambling wrecks who die of sorts of things because, well, because he has his reasons.

That being said, the male prostate is pretty poorly designed. It forms a donut around the urethra. If anything goes wrong with it (when something goes wrong with it), it impacts the whole urinary system. It really only makes sense so long as we're built to die before it has a chance to malfunction.
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Old 28th November 2017, 03:34 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
For the record, I think this is a stupid argument on both sides. Arguing about what God would or would not have done is like arguing what would have happened if Soap had lasted another season. It requires us to know not just God's capabilities, but also his plans. And one can always argue that he planned for us to be shambling wrecks who die of sorts of things because, well, because he has his reasons.

That being said, the male prostate is pretty poorly designed. It forms a donut around the urethra. If anything goes wrong with it (when something goes wrong with it), it impacts the whole urinary system. It really only makes sense so long as we're built to die before it has a chance to malfunction.
I disagree. One can argue that there are signatures of competent design, and signatures of evolved systems (including ones developed through evolutionary algorithms directed by humans).

If one has designed a component that works, one doesn't redesign an inferior component elsewhere.

That is what happens with the various different versions of the eye, where sometimes, there are two completely different eye structures in the same animal, let alone throughout "creation". Why did a designer get the octopus retina right, and then design the human eye later (according to Genesis) and get it the wrong way round?

If one is benign, competent, and omniscient, then adding the appendix is a bit silly - or indeed any vestigial organs.

One doesn't need to know the capability of a hypothetical Intelligent Designer, if one can say that in certain respects, they would have to be less capable of spotting a bad design than a human.

That isn't a very high bar for an omniscient being.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 28th November 2017, 05:59 PM   #78
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As someone who works in software, I'll play a little bit of devils advocate here. Large software projects designed completely from the top down almost always fail. Projects that start with smaller working pieces and then expand their features during development are much more successful. A side effect of this is that most software systems end up with certain architecture features that no longer make sense, but are too time consuming to change. Many parts of large software projects have attributes of evolved systems even though they were "designed intelligently".
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Old 28th November 2017, 07:20 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
If one is benign, competent, and omniscient, then adding the appendix is a bit silly - or indeed any vestigial organs.

You have unknowingly helped make my point. There are theories now that say that the appendix is not vestigial. It serves an important purpose as a safe haven for symbiotic bacteria that aid in digestion.

Anyone from twenty years ago that argued the appendix was unequivocally vestigial would have seemed right back then. But now that we have more information, we see they may have been wrong.

It's the same with a creator. Whatever seems to us to be some sign of benevolence or malevolence may, to a being with better understanding, be completely incorrect. That's why I don't think arguing what God "would" do makes any sense. God has ostensibly superior information. He may be aware of good, logical reasons to do something or other that we simply don't understand.

As soon as you admit even the existence of God, you lose every argument.
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Old 28th November 2017, 07:30 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
You have unknowingly helped make my point. There are theories now that say that the appendix is not vestigial. It serves an important purpose as a safe haven for symbiotic bacteria that aid in digestion.
I haven't had an appendix for 66 years and can digest just fine.



Quote:
Whatever seems to us to be some sign of benevolence or malevolence may, to a being with better understanding, be completely incorrect. That's why I don't think arguing what God "would" do makes any sense. God has ostensibly superior information. He may be aware of good, logical reasons to do something or other that we simply don't understand.
Argument from ignorance.

Quote:
As soon as you admit even claim the existence of God, you lose every argument.
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