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Old 26th November 2017, 07:34 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Whatever, it's what will come back to life according to reincarnationists

Jabba -

You have no idea if that's true or not. You have done absolutely nothing to educate yourself about what any religion believes about reincarnation. You haven't even spoken to a single Buddhist or Hindu. You haven't opened so much as a Wikipedia article. So please do not tell us what reincarnationists claim. You don't know. At this point, the evidence leads me to believe you don't even care.


Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Do you think that you experience the process I'm alluding to, but believe (are sure) that it's mortal?

Jabba -

By this post, you demonstrate that you are still thinking of consciousness as a discrete, unchanging thing. Would you ask if going sixty mph is mortal? The question makes no sense.

Please stop using the word "process" as some sort of throwaway so you can go on pretending it's anything but.

In any case, as you have just never understood ever, not one single person here is sure he/she is mortal. We simply have no evidentiary reason to believe we're not. Everything dies and no anecdote about coming back to life (or reincarnation) has ever held up under scrutiny.
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Old 26th November 2017, 08:19 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Mojo,
- Do you think that you experience the process I'm alluding to, but believe (are sure) that it's mortal?
Explain how a process such as going 60 mph can be mortal or immortal.
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Old 26th November 2017, 08:31 AM   #83
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I don't know about Hindu, according to MS a

critical process died check error code 0x000000EF

maybe this is confusing Jabba


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Old 26th November 2017, 08:49 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- What can I call the kind of thing/process
You may stop referring to the process of consciousness as a "thing". In materialism, which is what you're trying to refute, there is no soul.

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that would not be me in my copy? I could call it "soul" with the stipulation that by definition, it may not be immortal.
There is no such animal in materialism, which is what you're trying to refute.

Quote:
- Whatever, it's what will come back to life according to reincarnationists, but not according to you. I need a word for that concept.
The word you've repeatedly tried to dishonestly obfuscate is "soul". There is no such concept in materialism, which is what you're trying to refute.
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Old 26th November 2017, 09:07 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I suppose you don't have any evidence for that assertion?
How about you instruct yourself in these things and get back to us? This isn't the point of this thread.
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Old 26th November 2017, 09:08 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- What can I call the kind of thing/process that would not be me in my copy?
Nothing. How would a perfect copy of you not be you?
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Old 26th November 2017, 09:42 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Do you think that you experience the process I'm alluding to, but believe (are sure) that it's mortal?


ATTENTION JABBA. ANSWER THIS QUESTION. DO NOT IGNORE IT.


Do you think all your opponents secretly agree with you but just don't admit it?
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Old 26th November 2017, 10:07 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post


ATTENTION JABBA. ANSWER THIS QUESTION. DO NOT IGNORE IT.


Do you think all your opponents secretly agree with you but just don't admit it?
Ooooo.
Chanelling Sye are we?
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Old 26th November 2017, 10:08 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
The whole thing would not be you. The head would not be your head. The nose would not be your nose. The skin would not be your skin. The brain would not be your brain.
- Fine...
- But, I think you know to which process/experience I'm trying to find a word or phrase for -- if so, can you give me a word or phrase to use for it?
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Old 26th November 2017, 10:10 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Fine...
- But, I think you know to which process/experience I'm trying to find a word or phrase for -- if so, can you give me a word or phrase to use for it?
For the seventh time: The soul
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Old 26th November 2017, 10:17 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Fine...
- But, I think you know to which process/experience I'm trying to find a word or phrase for -- if so, can you give me a word or phrase to use for it?
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Old 26th November 2017, 10:32 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Fine...
- But, I think you know to which process/experience I'm trying to find a word or phrase for -- if so, can you give me a word or phrase to use for it?

I already did. If you don't want to call it the soul, we can call it the flapdoodle.
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Old 26th November 2017, 10:42 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Fine...
- But, I think you know to which process/experience I'm trying to find a word or phrase for -- if so, can you give me a word or phrase to use for it?
As a tribute to the language of your "razor":

avere l'anima
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Old 26th November 2017, 10:47 AM   #94
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Jabba,

What do you think is going to change when we "agree" on a term to use for you dancing around not calling it a soul?
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Old 26th November 2017, 11:00 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Fine...
- But, I think you know to which process/experience I'm trying to find a word or phrase for -- if so, can you give me a word or phrase to use for it?
You could call it your self, your consciousness, or your self awareness. It really doesn't matter. In the model you claim to be trying to disprove, it comes from a working brain.
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Old 26th November 2017, 11:35 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But, I think you know to which process/experience I'm trying to find a word or phrase for -- if so, can you give me a word or phrase to use for it?

What's wrong with "the ever-changing process of a working neurosystem"?
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Old 26th November 2017, 11:48 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
But, I think you know to which process/experience I'm trying to find a word or phrase for --
Stop being so dishonest. We know you mean a soul, and we know you're trying to find some word-game method of sneaking the concept into the materialist side of the debate. You've already been told a dozen times in a dozen ways that materialism does not allow for the existence of an effect that does not arise out of the material. You've tried several different ways to leapfrog over the part where you have to prove such a thing exists to the point where you and your critics agree on a name for it. Under materialism there simply is no concept as what you're trying to foist. Asking what to call it is moot.

Now you're trying to skip over the proof a different way and insinuate that whatever someone expresses a belief in is the thing you're talking about. No we don't know what "process/experience/thing/banana/Volkswagen" you're trying to foist. So please be so kind as to explain it. You don't get to say, "Oh, yeah, that thing you just agreed to give a name to -- that's the thing I mean is the proxy for the soul under materialism."

Quote:
...if so, can you give me a word or phrase to use for it?
You tell us exactly what you're talking about and exactly where you think it fits into the materialist hypothesis, and we'll start thinking about names.
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Old 26th November 2017, 11:52 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
What's wrong with "the ever-changing process of a working neurosystem"?
Because that wouldn't be the thing that's not reproduced by a perfect copy of the brain. All that is the self under materialism comes from the physical brain, and that's what it is no matter what we decided to call it. There isn't some other thing that happens that makes YOU the way Jabba's trying to foist the concept. Jabba is hoping that if he presses the problem of what to call it, and focuses only on that, we'll have tacitly agreed to the nature of it as he's outlined, and he can have his "gotcha!" moment. The nature of it, as he's outlined it, is the soul. It's like trying to prove someone is married by showing that he offered an answer -- any answer -- to the question, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
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Old 26th November 2017, 12:22 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Fine...
- But, I think you know to which process/experience I'm trying to find a word or phrase for -- if so, can you give me a word or phrase to use for it?
Describe exactly what part of the materialist hypothesis you're wanting to know the term for.

Unless you mean "soul", which isn't part of the materialist hypothesis which you're trying to disprove. That would be super dishonest of you to try to sneak that in. I think we agree on that.
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Old 26th November 2017, 12:24 PM   #100
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I don't think Jabba understands that him browbeating us into agreeing to some term to describe some made up distinction isn't immediately going to equate to him winning the argument.

As JayUtah says he's not arguing, he's trying to set us up for some grand "gotcha" moment where his character argues our characters into a corner and force us to admit not only that he is right, but he was right all along and we knew it the entire time.

In Jabba's brain the existence of this "thing that wouldn't be reproduced" is as obvious to us as it is to him, but our stodgy, science ruined rational brains that don't practice holistic thinking won't let us just call it a soul, so Jabba has to trick us into making up (and therefore agreeing via... reasons) a new term he can than use to claim we're agreeing with him and admitting we all knew he's been right this whole time.
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Old 26th November 2017, 01:11 PM   #101
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Jabba, I'm confused by your use of the word "reproduce". You seem to agree that reproducing a brain would result in two brains, the original and the copy. But when it comes to what you're calling "selves", you seem to be implying that "reproducing" a self would result in one self in two locations. I don't get it.
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Old 26th November 2017, 01:35 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I don't think Jabba understands that him browbeating us into agreeing to some term to describe some made up distinction isn't immediately going to equate to him winning the argument.

[...]
That's what I'm seeing. He's looking to use some equivocation to trick people into saying something that he agrees with, then he pounces with his "AHA! I've got you now!"

We've seen it dozens of times here. I suspect he's gotten away with it many times in his past with more credulous audiences, and this leads him to think he is a master of logical, rhetorical, and even mathematical erudition.

But it hasn't worked since he began dashing himself to pieces against the rock that is ISF.
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Old 26th November 2017, 01:44 PM   #103
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I suspect he's happy with this endless equivocation, because he knows his use of statistics doesn't hold water - we've seen how he ran away from the Talk Stats forum forum after a couple of months
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Old 26th November 2017, 01:54 PM   #104
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Which is why I asked, and of course got no answer from Jabba, if he honestly thinks we all secretly agree with him but just are too proud to admit.
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Old 26th November 2017, 01:57 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
I suspect he's happy with this endless equivocation, because he knows his use of statistics doesn't hold water - we've seen how he ran away from the Talk Stats forum forum after a couple of months
This URL http://www.talkstats.com/showthread....atistics/page6 needs to be repeated every few months, lest any innocent lurkers (or Jabba's imaginary impartial audience) think Jabba has any opinion of merit on his side.
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Old 26th November 2017, 02:00 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
I suspect he's happy with this endless equivocation, because he knows his use of statistics doesn't hold water - we've seen how he ran away from the Talk Stats forum forum after a couple of months
Even this flaming dumpster fire on wheels has to have an end game though. Even Jabba at some point will reach the "Planck's Hairsplit" and be unable to subdivide the argument further.
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Old 26th November 2017, 02:03 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Even this flaming dumpster fire on wheels has to have an end game though. Even Jabba at some point will reach the "Planck's Hairsplit" and be unable to subdivide the argument further.
OMG! That is too funny!

"Planck's Hairsplit" - I love it.

ETA: Nominated.
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Old 26th November 2017, 02:03 PM   #108
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Jabba, under materialism there is no difference between the two 'yous' that result from making a perfect copy of you. Prior to the replication process, there was one you. After the replication process, there are two identical-but-separate yous. No difference, nothing missing. The self is a process, undergoing constant change, and punctuated by gaps when the brain is asleep or otherwise unconscious.

What you are talking about is something that has no place in materialism, not even in your bastardised version which you call ooflam. The thing you are talking about only exists in the imaginations of people who believe in reincarnation, and it has no evidence to support its existence.

Call it a soul or a flapdoodle or anything else you choose; it doesn't matter what you call it as long as you recognise that it does not have a place in the materialist position you are trying to disprove.
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Old 26th November 2017, 02:03 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
This URL http://www.talkstats.com/showthread....atistics/page6 needs to be repeated every few months, lest any innocent lurkers (or Jabba's imaginary impartial audience) think Jabba has any opinion of merit on his side.
That happened here as well. Jabba begged and pestered and browbeat the PTB to grant him a special thread that operated under his "Rules of Effective Debate" under the promise that when we agreed to play by his rules he's finally grace us with getting around to making an actual point. Surprising no one that lasted all of a couple of pages before he was immediately argued into the same corner he started in to which he sulked and went to grown for a little while before starting this death spiral of a thread back up with a full fringe reset as if nothing had happened, still whining that nobody would play by his rules.
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Old 26th November 2017, 02:15 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
"Planck's Hairsplit" - I love it.

ETA: Nominated.
If nothing else this thread has been a good creative writing course. My only win and probably 90% of my nominations in the Language/Pith awards have come from this thread.
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Old 26th November 2017, 04:33 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Jabba, I'm confused by your use of the word "reproduce". You seem to agree that reproducing a brain would result in two brains, the original and the copy. But when it comes to what you're calling "selves", you seem to be implying that "reproducing" a self would result in one self in two locations. I don't get it.
I am going to push back on the highlighted part. Jabba clings to it to reason: One is the original and one is the copy, so there must be a difference even though there is not.

There is no requirement the reproduction process produce just a copy from the original. Consider how an amoeba reproduces. Neither cell that results is the original. The same could be true of the Jabba Replicator 5000 -- input one Jabba and output two Jabbas neither of which is the original.
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Old 26th November 2017, 08:51 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
I am going to push back on the highlighted part. Jabba clings to it to reason: One is the original and one is the copy, so there must be a difference even though there is not.
1. We've already tried to clarify this with terms like "exact copy" but Jabba just plows ahead lamb bleating "But it wouldn't be the saaaaaame..." without clarifying or explaining anything beyond that.

2. We've already spent enough of the last 5 years pretending it's reasonable that a grown man who's claiming to have perfected the art of Truly Effective Debate can't understand the concept of a distinct but identical thing/process.

3. The nuance between same, identical, copy, exact copy, and so forth is absolutely meaningless if the person (that would be Jabba) claiming the distinction can't even begin to start to try to make an attempt at explaining what the difference is.

Jabba just repeats "But it wouldn't be the saaaaaaame" over and over.

Because we all know he's talking about a soul.
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Old 26th November 2017, 08:56 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
The thing you are talking about only exists in the imaginations of people who believe in reincarnation

I wouldn't go that far. We have almost no idea what the beliefs of people who accept reincarnation are. I don't think anyone here is learned enough in (mostly eastern) religions to speak confidently about them.

I believe from what I've read in my children's homework, both Buddhism and Hinduism have an endgame. There's a point where one becomes so enlightened that the journey through many lives stops. If that's the case, neither religion has a reincarnation concept that is or could conceivably be considered immortal.

Jabba could easily put this whole thing to rest by learning about religious views of reincarnation. However, he absolutely and under all circumstances refuses too. He is perfectly happy to swim in a pool of ignorance knowing that it's much roomier than the puddle it would shrink to if he had information.
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Old 26th November 2017, 09:24 PM   #114
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It's not like the whole reincarnation thing is actually important to Jabba's argument, it's just another word he's throwing against the wall hoping it will stick.

He could call it the Force from Star Wars and it would be just as valid.
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Old 26th November 2017, 09:59 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Mojo,
- Do you think that you experience the process I'm alluding to, but believe (are sure) that it's mortal?
It doesn't matter if you or anyone believes they experience this process, or if they (or you) are sure it that it's mortal or think there is even a tiny, tiny possibility that it isn't material.

Under the theory of materialism, the sense of self is 100% guaranteed to be to 100% tied to the material of the body. It can't be anything else and be part of materialism.

So in order to estimate a probability for your sense of self existing under materialism, you must use a probability of 100% that the sense of self comes from and is dependent on the material of the body and nothing else.

A sincere question: What is the result of your formula if you use 100% for the probability under materialism that the sense of self is dependent on and caused by the material of the body and brain? (In this scenario, you can use any mathematically valid probability you want for the cause of the sense of self under ~materialism).
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Old 27th November 2017, 02:16 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post

Jabba could easily put this whole thing to rest by learning about religious views of reincarnation. However, he absolutely and under all circumstances refuses too. He is perfectly happy to swim in a pool of ignorance knowing that it's much roomier than the puddle it would shrink to if he had information.
He does go a bit further than that, with the references to some sort of cosmic sentience that we all get a bit of; we've all got a little bit of Napoleon. Not sure if it's his own invention or it's some hippy/newage bollocks.
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Old 27th November 2017, 04:28 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by wea View Post
http://www.perlikowski.kdm.p.lodz.pl/papers/PR2008.pdf

does that work for you?

ETA: JoeBentley already asked: shouldn't this subject be treated separately from Jabba's statistical proof that a non-existent entity is immortal, or whatever he currently means ?

ETA2: QED (Quod Erat Demonstrandum != Quantum Electro-Dynamics)
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12090268
See response in post 25 of that other thread.
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Old 27th November 2017, 05:47 AM   #118
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Does "newage" rhyme with "sewage?"
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Old 27th November 2017, 07:24 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But, I think you know to which process/experience I'm trying to find a word or phrase for -- if so, can you give me a word or phrase to use for it?
Jabba, I've explained this several times. You're thinking of sentimental value.

That feeling that a copy wouldn't be *you* in some sense is just sentimental value rather than an actual tangible property. Just like if there are two souvenir sombreros and one is from Walmart but the other is from a dear friend and was given to you after the two of you spent a magical weekend in Tijuana - even if they're perfectly identical down to the last atom the one that was a gift is special to you because you assign extra value to it.

But that value doesn't correspond to any actual property, and can't be said to be mortal or immortal or anything. If I secretly swap the two hats you will assign that extra value to the wrong one and never know it, because it's not a real difference in a materialistic sense.
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Old 27th November 2017, 07:54 AM   #120
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It's not even that deep. Jabba is trying to wring some grand intellectual gotcha scene for his play out of how pronouns work.

The neuro-chemical process going on right now in the 3 lbs of grey matter inside my skull is "me." I call that "me" because "me" is the term we use to describe it. That's how language works.

Would another exactly, down to the tiniest detail, copy of that neuro-chemical process be me? I don't know or care. It's not a valid question. It's applying a term to something in context it was never meant to be used and trying to use the fact the term doesn't work as evidence of something.

That's why I wish we would all reject Jabba's attempts at forcing an answer to "Would another me be me" out of us because it's a trap. No answer can work in the scenario. It's not a valid question.

If you say "The other me would be me" Jabba latches onto this with his "But it wouldn't be the saaaaaaaame" fetish because you can't linguistically have two "me's" since "me" is a singular pronoun. But that's just how language works because that's the most useful way of wording the concept in 99.9999999% of cases.

If you say "The other me would be different" Jabba latches onto this by claiming the difference is the soul he's totally not arguing for.

Can't win, can't lose, can't quit the game.

Here I'm gonna make up a word. Ahhhh... Fleen. A Fleen is defined as a totally unique object, one that by definition only one of exist in the entire universe. If there are more than one, it's by definition not a fleen. Okay? Everybody on board.

*Clears throat* But what if there were... *dramatic pause* two fleens? *BADADUM! Gasps, old ladies get the vapors, children start crying, monocles fall into teacups.*

See how silly that is? I define something singularly and than ask a question in direct opposition not to meaning but to definition. It has all the intellect validity of asking what if 1 = 2 or how many legs does a dog have if you call a tail a leg. It's meaningless playing with the language.

And that's all Jabba's doing at this point in this waking nightmare of a discussion. Currently our linguistic concepts for personal consciousness and sense of self are all singular because... well at this moment and every moment in history up to his point they have been. There's no mystery just the fact that our language doesn't go out of its way to make up words and terms and linguistic constructs for things it doesn't to describe.

I'm done playing by Jabba's rules and so very much wish other people would be as well.
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