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Old 27th November 2017, 03:13 PM   #161
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yes, I do. The likelihood of my current existence -- given OOFLam --is virtually zero. I must be missing something, but I can't figure out what it is.
Here it is: OOFLAM doesn't exist. You are constructing a fiction.

Work with reality, and it'll get you places.
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Old 27th November 2017, 03:18 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Is this "self" the same concept/experience that reincarnationists think returns?
No.

First let's get something out of the way. You're not even trying to hide your equivocations anymore. Every time you use one of these -- "/" -- you try to sneak multiple ambiguous concepts past your critics. It's the difference between "Jabba" and "Jabba/child-molester." In other words, a big important difference. Your critics are kind enough to use single words. They're kind enough to use specific words. They're kind enough to supply you with the definitions of words they're using, where there's the possibility of misunderstanding. So kindly stop trying to back-door inappropriate concepts into the argument by slash-gregating them together as if your critics should take them as one lump sum.

Now back to no. It's no because you're trying to make one side's explanation (~H, there is an immortal soul) part of the data (E, a person has a sense of self) such that all the hypotheses would have to explain that cause, not just the effect. It's one of the fatal flaws we all know you can't answer. Fatal Flaw #3 describes how you don't know the different parts of a statistical inference and can't properly tell what role each one plays. You've just posted more evidence that you persist in flawed reasoning.

The datum E is the sense of self. The data cannot include any sort of explanation for how they came about. ~H (or more properly, perhaps some hypothesis in ~H) wants to explain E by means of a separately-existing immortal soul. That would be evaluated under P(E|~H). H, materialism, explains E as an emergent property of the process of consciousness, which proceeds in a functioning human brain. That is what you're trying to reckon as P(E|H). H is not responsible for trying (and, you hope, failing) to explain a cause that ~H proposes.

As for "reincarnationists," I have to march behind Loss Leader's flag on this one. You clearly haven't done anything to determine what, if anything, the various believers in reincarnation actually believe or what they might, if anything, have in common. So there's a separate justification for a "no" answer in the form of your not having defined the target.

Last edited by JayUtah; 27th November 2017 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 27th November 2017, 03:30 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yes, I do. The likelihood of my current existence -- given OOFLam --is virtually zero. I must be missing something, but I can't figure out what it is.
However unlikely the existence of your body is, it is far more likely than the existence of your body AND another element (soul) which could continue after your brain ceases functioning AND the means by which your brain and this thing (soul) could interact. You know this but you continue to ignore it. That is what you are missing.
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Old 27th November 2017, 03:33 PM   #164
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This disucssion reminds me of one of Achievement Hunter's Let's Play videos.

Gavin, Michael, Geoff, Jeremy, Ryan, and Jack are playing the new Star Wars Battlefront.

Gavin: So wait Star Wars doesn't take place in the Milky Way?
Michael: What?
Jack: No it takes place in a galaxy far, far away.
Geoff: Far, far away.
Gavin: So there's no Earth?
Michael: The first line of the movie...
Geoff: (Louder) Far, far away.
Jeremy: Gavin when that first tagline started did you just tune out, not read any of it?
Gavin: I don't know it's just one of those things you hear so much...
Ryan: You just read it, you don't hear it!
Gavin: So wait... wait... Is it also in the past as well?
Michael: Sit down Gavin it's also like thousands of years in the past.
Gavin: This has actually blown my mind that it's way in the past and way far away. They should have put that at the beginning of the movie.
Jack, Ryan, Michael, Geoff, and Jeremy (All at once): THEY DID!
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Old 27th November 2017, 03:34 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Work with reality, and it'll get you places.
We have to call that "Materialism" now.
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Old 27th November 2017, 03:50 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I must be missing something, but I can't figure out what it is.
Perhaps you should finally take the time to read and try to understand the hundreds of posts which explain exactly what it is you're missing in excruciating detail?
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Old 27th November 2017, 04:12 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Is this "self" the same concept/experience that reincarnationists think returns?
Go back and read the responses you’ve clearly ignored, and try not to be quite so rude again.
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Old 27th November 2017, 08:57 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Here it is: OOFLAM doesn't exist. You are constructing a fiction.

Work with reality, and it'll get you places.
Eternal nothingness isn't a 'place', is it?

I'm pretty sure that's the figurative place Jabba hopes to avoid, and so far he's doing very well. The all-engulfing eternal nothingness has yet to engulf him.

Or or any of us. That's why we've been able to spend all these years arguing fervently in favor of the all-engulfing inevitability of eternal nothingness.

We're just lucky enough to have all this time to spend arguing fervently in favor of the, uh...almost all-engulfing inevitability of almost eternal nothingness.
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Old 27th November 2017, 09:25 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Eternal nothingness isn't a 'place', is it?

I'm pretty sure that's the figurative place Jabba hopes to avoid, and so far he's doing very well. The all-engulfing eternal nothingness has yet to engulf him.

Or or any of us. That's why we've been able to spend all these years arguing fervently in favor of the all-engulfing inevitability of eternal nothingness.

We're just lucky enough to have all this time to spend arguing fervently in favor of the, uh...almost all-engulfing inevitability of almost eternal nothingness.
Okay what is it exactly with this "Be glad you're not dead yet" moralizing that people keep popping into this thread to dole out? What's the point and purpose? What exactly are you telling us that we don't know or aren't aware of?

Again everyone here has to deal with their own morality, but the difference is we're managing to do it absent some obsessive anti-intellectual passion play.
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Old 27th November 2017, 09:33 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
We're just lucky enough to have all this time to spend arguing fervently in favor of the, uh...almost all-engulfing inevitability of almost eternal nothingness.

I've often entertained that thought: that the only data I have regarding my own mortality points to the fact that, so far, I haven't died. It would be a huge break from tradition if I did.

But then I catch myself because that thought is extraordinarily stupid.
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Old 27th November 2017, 11:27 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Okay what is it exactly with this "Be glad you're not dead yet" moralizing that people keep popping into this thread to dole out? What's the point and purpose?
I don't know. I didn't tell you to be glad you're not dead yet.

Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Again everyone here has to deal with their own morality, but the difference is we're managing to do it absent some obsessive anti-intellectual passion play.
This multi-year browbeating is not an obsessive passion play?
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Old 27th November 2017, 11:51 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I've often entertained that thought: that the only data I have regarding my own mortality points to the fact that, so far, I haven't died. It would be a huge break from tradition if I did.

But then I catch myself because that thought is extraordinarily stupid.
That way of looking at it is indeed extraordinarily stupid. It will not be a break from tradition when you die. Dying is quite the tradition.
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Old 28th November 2017, 12:42 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I've often entertained that thought: that the only data I have regarding my own mortality points to the fact that, so far, I haven't died. It would be a huge break from tradition if I did.

But then I catch myself because that thought is extraordinarily stupid.
That way of looking at it is indeed extraordinarily stupid.

From the post Loss Leader was replying to:
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Eternal nothingness isn't a 'place', is it?

I'm pretty sure that's the figurative place Jabba hopes to avoid, and so far he's doing very well. The all-engulfing eternal nothingness has yet to engulf him.
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Old 28th November 2017, 01:02 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Eternal nothingness isn't a 'place', is it?

I'm pretty sure that's the figurative place Jabba hopes to avoid, and so far he's doing very well. The all-engulfing eternal nothingness has yet to engulf him.
[...].
And he would do exactly as well if he had laid down and died 5 years ago.
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Old 28th November 2017, 02:32 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yes, I do. The likelihood of my current existence -- given OOFLam --is virtually zero. I must be missing something, but I can't figure out what it is.
Would you like someone to take yet another attempt at telling you?

Go and get yourself a deck of cards, and shuffle it thoroughly. You will now have some specific arrangement of cards. What is the likelihood that the arrangement you have actually exists? It would have to be, a priori, one divided by the number of possible combinations. How many possible combinations of cards are there? The answer is a little over 8x1067; so the probability that you got the arrangement you actually ended up with, is a number so small it has 67 zeroes after the decimal point before its first non-zero digit. By any everyday measure, that's virtually zero. So you've just carried out an operation, the probability of a specific result of which is virtually zero.

But the point is, there has to be some final arrangement of the cards. All of the different arrangements have exactly the same probability, so there's nothing particularly surprising about the fact that one of them exists in that particular pack at that particular time, even though the probability is so low.

So that's all there is to it. The probability of the existence of you, a specific person, isn't relevant, because the probability of all the other possible people existing isn't significantly different, and people exist. To think otherwise would be to think that some outside agency is also intervening when you shuffle a deck of cards.

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Old 28th November 2017, 02:34 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Eternal nothingness isn't a 'place', is it?
No, it's a process.

Dave
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Old 28th November 2017, 07:57 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
So, like I've been saying, if you made an exact copy of my body, my self would be reproduced.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Is this "self" the same concept/experience that reincarnationists think returns?
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
It's the same experience but not the same concept. All the reincarnation beliefs I'm familiar with posit some kind of soul that exists independently of the physical body.
- Yeah -- "concept" was the wrong word.
- What can I call this particular kind of experience so that we'll know that we're talking about the same kind of experience?
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:00 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah -- "concept" was the wrong word.
Jabba: 1+4=7
Rational humans: What? No it isn't.

Quote:
- What can I call this particular kind of experience so that we'll know that we're talking about the same kind of experience?
Jabba: How about 1 and 4 are 7?
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:02 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah -- "concept" was the wrong word.
- What can I call this particular kind of experience so that we'll know that we're talking about the same kind of experience?
We already know we're talking about the same kind of experience so I don't know why you keep asking this. We could call it self-awareness, the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals.

Under the materialist model, it's produced by a living, working brain.
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:04 AM   #180
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Nothing. No. Thing.


Look jabba, can you please be polite enough to respond to me? I asked you a fairly simple question a while back in good faith and you haven't answered.

Have you ever watched Star Trek?
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:06 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
What can I call this particular kind of experience so that we'll know that we're talking about the same kind of experience?
If you bothered to read the responses to your question you'd know by now.
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:13 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
What can I call this particular kind of experience so that we'll know that we're talking about the same kind of experience?
We've already been calling it the "sense of self" for quite some time, so there's no reason to change that. The problem is not that we haven't found a name for it. The problem is that you keep trying to push this naming exercise as a way to sneak your quod erat demonstrandum past your critics without support. You want to rename it in a way that includes your preferred cause as part of the data that must be explained.

That's Fatal Flaw #3 on the list of errors in your argument. The one you're assiduously avoiding.
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:19 AM   #183
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Does anyone know how many times Phil had to go through the time loop in Groundhog day? 'Cause I'm similarily knowledgeable about everything in this thread, due to repetition, and I'm ready to go home now.
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:35 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Jabba: 1+4=7
Rational humans: What? No it isn't.
Jabba: How about 1 and 4 are 7?
Or : "What can I call this particular kind of 1 and 4 so we can be sure we're both talking about the same kind of 1 and 4 that add up to 7?"

Dave
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:38 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah -- "concept" was the wrong word.
- What can I call this particular kind of experience so that we'll know that we're talking about the same kind of experience?
Soul


Soul



Soul Soul

Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul


Soul
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:42 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
"What can I call this particular kind of 1 and 4 so we can be sure we're both talking about the same kind of 1 and 4 that add up to 7?"

Dave
"Ok, perhaps I'm not using the right words..."
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Old 28th November 2017, 08:47 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah -- "concept" was the wrong word.
- What can I call this particular kind of experience so that we'll know that we're talking about the same kind of experience?

You can call it the flapdoodle.
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:08 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
"What can I call this particular kind of 1 and 4 so we can be sure we're both talking about the same kind of 1 and 4 that add up to 7?"

Dave
"What's the word you use for when you stop beating your wife?"
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:10 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
Soul


Soul



Soul Soul

Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul Soul


Soul

with the power
of soul
anything is possiboul

with the power
of you
anything you wanna dou


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ3EWmdEki8
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:13 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
with the power
of soul
anything is possiboul
By the power of Greyskull... I have the POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:15 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
1) One of the things you're missing is that "virtually zero" doesn't mean anything mathematical. But let's ignore that for now.

In the materialist model, the one you claim to be H in for P(E|H), 2) your current existence is a result of your parents having sex, you being conceived, you being born, and you surviving through today. Their existence is a result of similar circumstances with their parents, and similarly back to the first appearance of life on earth, which was itself the result of events we don't understand, which were in turn the results of other events going back to the beginning of time and the universe.

3) So depending on when you calculate the likelihood of your eventually existence, you might get a very small number. 4) But the same would be true of absolutely everything that exists now: every snowflake, every grain of sand, every piece of rock on every planet in the universe.

5) In the materialist model, your self is entirely the result of natural processes. It did not come from nowhere. Its relative unlikelihood at various points in history is no more significant than the unlikelihood that the formation we call Mount Rainier would one day exist in the form it currently exists in.
Dave,
- Re #1. I'm happy to use 1/10100.
- Re #2. We can use that model if you wish (that I am totally the result of my DNA, or ovum and sperm cell) -- though, I suspect that we should really use the model that consciousness naturally brings with it a brand new self-awareness, not out of any limited pool of potential self-awarenesseses, and is totally unlimited as to what particular self-awareness it will be.
- Re #3. Whatever, my claim is that going back to the beginning of time is appropriate.
- Re #4. This refers to the Sharpshooter fallacy. My claim here is that I am, in fact, set apart from other possible targets. I think that Caveman agrees.
- Re #5. Again, my claim is that I am set apart, whereas Mt. Rainier is not.
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:20 AM   #192
John Jones
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Re #1. I'm happy to use 1/10100.
- Re #2. We can use that model if you wish (that I am totally the result of my DNA, or ovum and sperm cell) -- though, I suspect that we should really use the model that consciousness naturally brings with it a brand new self-awareness, not out of any limited pool of potential self-awarenesseses, and is totally unlimited as to what particular self-awareness it will be.
- Re #3. Whatever, my claim is that going back to the beginning of time is appropriate.
- Re #4. This refers to the Sharpshooter fallacy. My claim here is that I am, in fact, set apart from other possible targets. I think that Caveman agrees.
- Re #5. Again, my claim is that I am set apart, whereas Mt. Rainier is not.

STOP DOING THAT! WE HEARD YOU THE FIRST 5,000 TIMES.
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:20 AM   #193
godless dave
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Re #1. I'm happy to use 1/10100.
- Re #2. We can use that model if you wish (that I am totally the result of my DNA, or ovum and sperm cell) -- though, I suspect that we should really use the model that consciousness naturally brings with it a brand new self-awareness, not out of any limited pool of potential self-awarenesseses, and is totally unlimited as to what particular self-awareness it will be.
Just a few posts ago you said you were trying to disprove the materialist model and you assured us that it was always your intention to use the materialist model as H in P(E|H). But the highlighted part is most assuredly not the materialist model. It's not a model anyone but you is familiar with. It's certainly not a model you can use the phrase "scientifically speaking" about.


Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Re #4. This refers to the Sharpshooter fallacy. My claim here is that I am, in fact, set apart from other possible targets. I think that Caveman agrees.
- Re #5. Again, my claim is that I am set apart, whereas Mt. Rainier is not.
We know that's your claim. You've made it several times. You still haven't supported it.
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:27 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I'm happy to use 1/10100.
Then I suggest you shuffle two packs of cards together, one with red and the other with blue backs so that every card is distinguishable. You will obtain a result 34 orders of magnitude below your "nearly zero" threshold; in other words, according to your understanding it will have been impossible for you to do what you have just done. Yet you will have just done it. This should demonstrate to you that your understanding is wrong.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Again, my claim is that I am set apart, whereas Mt. Rainier is not.
Again, again, again, again and again, your claim of being "set apart" is a very precise statement of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy; you are selecting the a posteriori observation as an a priori requirement, which it is not. And repeating your claim for another five years will not make it any less fallacious.

Dave
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:28 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Re #4. This refers to the Sharpshooter fallacy. My claim here is that I am, in fact, set apart from other possible targets. I think that Caveman agrees.
- Re #5. Again, my claim is that I am set apart, whereas Mt. Rainier is not.
I'm not saying this to be mean: You're not special. You're not "set apart". This is just the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

But sure, let's play by your rules. You know who else is special and set apart? Franklin Gazorpazorp. Franklin is a special case that we need to consider. Also Franklin doesn't exist. So let's do your formula and... oh my! I predict he wouldn't exist under a materialistic model and HE DOESN'T! This proves materialism correct. Great work everyone.
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:30 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I'm happy to use 1/10100.
That's a number you pulled out of nowhere.

Quote:
We can use that model if you wish (that I am totally the result of my DNA, or ovum and sperm cell) -- though, I suspect that we should really use the model that consciousness naturally brings with it a brand new self-awareness, not out of any limited pool of potential self-awarenesseses
Why do you think we "should" do this? So far you have never explained why you think it's rational to pick one course of action rather than the other. And as I noted earlier, many times, your self-awareness changes and is recreated every moment, creating a new "you". The previous "you"s are not brought back to life: they are destroyed.

Quote:
, and is totally unlimited as to what particular self-awareness it will be.
You don't know that. You don't know how many different "selves" are possible, nor do you know if that has anything to do with the odds of you existing. For all you know, several other people, in history and currently, have identical selves to yours.

Quote:
- Re #3. Whatever, my claim is that going back to the beginning of time is appropriate.
Stop repeating your claims. Justify them.

Quote:
My claim
STOP IT.
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:40 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Re #1. I'm happy to use 1/10100.
As long as you're making it up, it doesn't really matter, does it?

Quote:
- Re #2. We can use that model if you wish
No, if YOU wish. YOU wanted to disprove the materialist model. You have to disprove it as it stands.

Quote:
(that I am totally the result of my DNA, or ovum and sperm cell) -- though, I suspect that we should really use the model
I suspect you are way out of your comfort zone, scientifically speaking.

Quote:
that consciousness naturally brings with it a brand new self-awareness,
Like a Volkswagen brings with it a brand new going 60 mph. I suspect that you and I agree about how idiotic your words are now.

Quote:
not out of any limited pool of potential self-awarenesseses, and is totally unlimited as to what particular self-awareness it will be.
Explain how those words apply to what you've called a process.

Quote:
- Re #3. Whatever, my claim is that going back to the beginning of time is appropriate.
Nothing you've claimed really makes sense.

Quote:
- Re #4. This refers to the Sharpshooter fallacy. My claim here is that I am, in fact, set apart from other possible targets. I think that Caveman agrees.
Explain again for the first time your understanding of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. You apparently have some unique understanding of it that nobody else subscribes to.

Quote:
- Re #5. Again, my claim is that I am set apart, whereas Mt. Rainier is not.
I suspect that you and I agree that you aren't set apart because you know that you're just illustrating the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy, which you apparently can't comprehend.
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:47 AM   #198
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Oh, and by the way:

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Re #4. This refers to the Sharpshooter fallacy. My claim here is that I am, in fact, set apart from other possible targets. I think that Caveman agrees.
... I see that you've finally found one point that you've managed to fool yourself into thinking one other poster agrees with. But even that doesn't seem to me to be correct; caveman1917 has posted, not that you are in fact set apart from other possible targets, but that your claim to be set apart from other possible targets is not in his opinion an instance of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. Admittedly, in order to do so he has had to produce a mathematical formulation which he claims to be the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy and then argue that your claim does not conform to that mathematical formulation, despite the fact that your claim conforms to the actual definition of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy; but even after such logical gymnastics, even he seems unable to agree that your existence is a predetermined target of some process rather than its random result.

Dave
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:51 AM   #199
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Jabba, fellow oldster, those aren't claims. Those are just wan, faded, tattered hopes.

Question: Why do you want to live forever?
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Old 28th November 2017, 10:01 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Re #1. I'm happy to use 1/10100.
That doesn't fix the problem. Your argument for it being "virtually zero" was based on a misunderstanding of how infinity works in mathematics. It reveals that you really don't know much about math, which casts doubt on your confidence in being able to prove mathematically that you have an immortal soul. Simply replacing that bit of profound ignorance with a small finite number plucked out of thin air commits the reciprocal error because it's plucked out of thin air with no rationale or computation behind it.

If you're going to pick a finite number as the value of P(E|H) and stick with the notion that it's derived from the cardinality of the set of "potential selves," then it inevitably follows that your Big Denominator -- that aforementioned cardinality -- must be a finite number. And if the cardinality of the set of "potential selves" is finite, that means the pool of potential selves must be finite (i.e., limited) in your private definition of materialism. Or else you'll have to also abandon the whole idea of "potential selves" and come up with a new rationale for P(E|H) = 1/10100 that doesn't rely on that, and is also still acceptable under materialism.

Quote:
Re #2. We can use that model if you wish (that I am totally the result of my DNA, or ovum and sperm cell) -- though, I suspect that we should really use the model that consciousness naturally brings with it a brand new self-awareness, not out of any limited pool of potential self-awarenesseses, and is totally unlimited as to what particular self-awareness it will be.
No, we really shouldn't. As I, godless dave, and dozens of others have attempted in vain to instruct you, if you're reckoning P(E|H) then you must use H as it is actually formulated, not some other hypothesis in which your quod erat demonstrandum is taken as a foregone conclusion and made to be part of the data that H must explain. None of your attempts to beg the question this way has succeeded in five years in fooling anyone. What makes you think today's the day when it will?

Quote:
Re #3. Whatever, my claim is that going back to the beginning of time is appropriate.
If your goal is to arrive at a useful figure, I can't imagine how going back to a point where there are no data to reason from is at all appropriate. However if your goal is to deny your critics a factual basis from which to refute you, then it makes sense for you to try. And that's exactly what the evidence suggests you're trying to do. You put your critics on that footing, but then when it comes to applying the same standard of proof toward your own hypothesis, you start it at a different point in time. Godless dave is correct in pointing out that you can certainly start your reckoning wherever you want, so long as you apply the limitations equally to materialism as to anything else. Since you don't, your approach is easily seen to be ad hoc and self-serving.

Quote:
Re #4. This refers to the Sharpshooter fallacy. My claim here is that I am, in fact, set apart from other possible targets.
The Texas sharpshooter fallacy doesn't address the simple fact of being set apart. It addresses the criteria by which something is set apart. To escape the fallacy, they cannot be post hoc criteria, otherwise the fallacy is committed. Your argument unequivocally sets you apart based on post hoc criteria, therefore it commits the fallacy and your argument fails forthwith. This is one of the fatal flaws you know dooms your argument and are thus assiduously pretending don't exist.

You have been invited many times to render the Texas sharpshooter fallacy in your own words and explain what makes it a fallacy. Today's post, combined with your stubborn refusal to confirm that you understand, is simply further evidence that you lack the intelligence to comprehend what's wrong with your proof.

Quote:
Re #5. Again, my claim is that I am set apart, whereas Mt. Rainier is not.
And in five years you've been unable to progress the argument beyond simply restating your claim and using various childish tricks to fool people into expressing agreement for it. As we noted in your foray elsewhere, you seem to have no cognitive ability beyond simply pulpitting your beliefs.

Last edited by JayUtah; 28th November 2017 at 10:34 AM.
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