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Old 30th November 2017, 08:17 AM   #281
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- A particular loaf of bread is simply the result of chemistry. Your particular self-awareness would not be produced by a new combination of your exact chemistry
Yes it would, for the same reason that any number of loaves of bread exhibit the properties of bfread. That was the point of the analogy. And as usual, you're begging the question that self-awareness is individualized as a discrete. You know that's wrong because you won't answer any other questions that test your knowledge of what a property is.

Quote:
...and therefor, would not be simply the result of your chemistry.
But that's what you're trying to prove. You don't get to assume it's true as part of the proof. One would have learned that in, oh, the seventh grade. Your proof doesn't fail because of some nuance you can easily talk your way around. It fails because it's illogical at the most fundamental level.

Additionally, the definition of materialism requires that the properties of identical material be identical. It specifically disallows externalities. If you're trying to talk about P(E|H), you must use H, materialism. Otherwise you're just falsifying a straw man.
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Old 30th November 2017, 08:46 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- A particular loaf of bread is simply the result of chemistry. Your particular self-awareness would not be produced by a new combination of your exact chemistry -- and therefor, would not be simply the result of your chemistry.
Maybe it would help if you tell us what your claim is again.

LOL
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Old 30th November 2017, 09:59 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Maybe it would help if you tell us what your claim is again.

LOL

And then tell us what you will attempt to do. Don't actually do it, of course. Just let us know you'll be back.
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Old 30th November 2017, 11:16 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I'd be afraid that any attempt to reproduce me exactly would result in a JayUtah with a ghoatee.
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
"Soul" works fine.

Hans
This is about facial hair now?
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Old 30th November 2017, 11:28 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- A particular loaf of bread is simply the result of chemistry. Your particular self-awareness would not be produced by a new combination of your exact chemistry -- and therefor, would not be simply the result of your chemistry.

Try to think of it from the loaf of bread's point of view. It sees another loaf sitting there and says to itself, "Well, that's all fine and good but that smell it's giving off can't be my particular bread smell because my particular bread smell is over here."

You are just another loaf of bread. You can revel in your own feeling of distinct specialness all you like, but objectively you would be no different from an exact copy of you. Both would believe they were the one true Jabba and both would have missed the point entirely. The concept of "one true Jabba" doesn't exist. Every second, the person we called Jabba is measurably different from the one we called Jabba a second ago.
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Old 30th November 2017, 11:45 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
....Every second, the person we called Jabba is measurably different from the one we called Jabba a second ago.
Sage words.

As someone with a bit of a mood disorder, I am not sure that manic Sparrow and depressed Sparrow are even really the same person.
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Old 30th November 2017, 11:49 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
But at least then Jabba would have some support, plus you could use your agoniser on the rest of us to drive us away.
Nerd.









(we can smell our own)
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Old 30th November 2017, 11:51 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- So, you agree with me in that the combination of your particular sperm and ovum-- even if it encountered the very same factors in the womb -- would not produce your particular self-awareness. Your particular self-awareness must not be simply the result of chemistry.
Do you think you could stick to your OP? You're very far off-topic here.

You're not saying anything of value. Different circumstances lead to different outcomes. This is self-evident. But even if the circumstances and outcomes are exactly, precisely the same, you still get two people.
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Old 30th November 2017, 11:53 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- A particular loaf of bread is simply the result of chemistry. Your particular self-awareness would not be produced by a new combination of your exact chemistry -- and therefor, would not be simply the result of your chemistry.
The second loaf of bread isn't the same one as the first, either. It's an identical but separate loaf. Your logic doesn't hold.
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Old 30th November 2017, 11:54 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
I am shocked...Shocked I tell you!
Your winning, sir.
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Old 30th November 2017, 12:15 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Jabba seems to think the "self" is a separate thing that gets attached to a body at some point, and that the characteristics of the body - the genome or the shape of the brain or something - determine which self gets attached.

Like if you have two radios, both tuned to 89.3 FM, they'll both pick up the same transmission. They won't pick up two separate transmissions.

That's what he seems to be getting at but who knows.
I have pointed out to Jabba on a number of occasions that they just assume that their consciousness is the 'same' from moment to moment, all without proof. The 'self' is a transitory phenomena that is always changing.
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Old 30th November 2017, 12:21 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- So, you agree with me in that the combination of your particular sperm and ovum-- even if it encountered the very same factors in the womb -- would not produce your particular self-awareness. Your particular self-awareness must not be simply the result of chemistry.
Category error, over generalization and a strawman.

When an ova and a sperm unite the body they produce is not 'determined' it is deterministic with being a straight down the rail process.
- identical twins start with the same set of genes but develop differently. ergo the genes in the zygote only partly determine the development of the organic body. They have two separate sets of self awareness.

Brains develop and mature in an environment which impacts their structure and functions, expose two identical brains (in identical bodies) to different environments and you will have two different sets of self awareness.

Jabba,
This is sophomoric inelegant and ham fisted argument on your part surely you can do better.
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Old 30th November 2017, 12:24 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- A particular loaf of bread is simply the result of chemistry. Your particular self-awareness would not be produced by a new combination of your exact chemistry -- and therefor, would not be simply the result of your chemistry.
This is a silly line or argument, worthy of creationism and a two year old.

You have never demonstrated that your actual self awareness is the same moment to moment, but please continue to entertain us with these idiotic arguments.
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Old 30th November 2017, 01:00 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Every second, the person we called Jabba is measurably different from the one we called Jabba a second ago.

Same claim, same deafness, same I'll be back forever. Et voilà. Someone will believe there is no difference at least in his case.
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Old 30th November 2017, 01:07 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
Sage words.

As someone with a bit of a mood disorder, I am not sure that manic Sparrow and depressed Sparrow are even really the same person.

I'm reminded of that Snickers commercial where Joe Pesci is yelling at everybody. Then they give him a candy bar and he turns into a regular guy. The tagline is, "You're not you when you're hungry."
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Old 30th November 2017, 03:36 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Nerd.









(we can smell our own)
I made a point (rather well I thought) about the reality of consciousness by using an episode of TNG as an example. I don't own my own Starfleet uniform...yet.
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Old 30th November 2017, 05:33 PM   #297
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"Well there would be a difference...
"What's the difference?"
"Well the difference is they wouldn't be the same."
"How are they not the same?"
"Well they would be different."
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Old 1st December 2017, 01:59 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Category error, over generalization and a strawman.

When an ova and a sperm unite the body they produce is not 'determined' it is deterministic with being a straight down the rail process.
- identical twins start with the same set of genes but develop differently. ergo the genes in the zygote only partly determine the development of the organic body. They have two separate sets of self awareness.

Brains develop and mature in an environment which impacts their structure and functions, expose two identical brains (in identical bodies) to different environments and you will have two different sets of self awareness.

Jabba,
This is sophomoric inelegant and ham fisted argument on your part surely you can do better.[citation needed]

FTFY.
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Old 1st December 2017, 05:22 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Your winning, sir.
I am ashamed to admit I didn't immediately get the reference. I do now though
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Old 1st December 2017, 06:53 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
I have pointed out to Jabba on a number of occasions [snip]
That's redundant.
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Old 1st December 2017, 06:56 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
I am ashamed to admit I didn't immediately get the reference. I do now though
The typo didn't help. Should be "winnings".
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Old 1st December 2017, 08:13 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
A particular loaf of bread would not be produced by a new combination of the same chemistry that produced the first one.
- No -- but, the only differences (I think) would be time, space and specific atoms.

- The new brain would be different in all those respects -- but, it would also be different in its emergent property of self-awareness (a different specific self-awareness), even though there would be no difference in the chemistry of the two brains. The bread involves nothing analogous to your self-awareness.

- But also, as noted previously, I'm happy to treat it your way -- that your particular self-awareness was determined by your particular sperm and ovum and the likelihood of the current existence of your particular self-awareness is still something like 1/10100.
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Old 1st December 2017, 08:20 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- No -- but, the only differences (I think) would be time, space and specific atoms.

- The new brain would be different in all those respects -- but, it would also be different in its emergent property of self-awareness (a different specific self-awareness),
They only reason they have different specific self-awarenesses is because they are two different, specific brains. The only difference between the two instances of self-awareness is that they come from two separate brains. Time, space and specific atoms are the only way the selves are different.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But also, as noted previously, I'm happy to treat it your way
It's not "my" way. It's the scientific model of human consciousness. It's not something I just made up.
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Old 1st December 2017, 08:25 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- No -- but, the only differences (I think) would be time, space and specific atoms.

- The new brain would be different in all those respects -- but, it would also be different in its emergent property of self-awareness (a different specific self-awareness), even though there would be no difference in the chemistry of the two brains. The bread involves nothing analogous to your self-awareness.
You should really read all the responses. Pretending that you haven’t been shown other emergent properties in loaves of bread is rather dishonest.

Quote:
- But also, as noted previously, I'm happy to treat it your way -- that your particular self-awareness was determined by your particular sperm and ovum and the likelihood of the current existence of your particular self-awareness is still something like 1/10100.
How would immortality change the likelihood of your body existing? After all, immortality requires something else (soul) in addition to your body, and it requires a means of the body and soul functioning together. It is impossible for that to be more likely than your body alone.
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Old 1st December 2017, 08:26 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The new brain would be different in all those respects -- but, it would also be different in its emergent property of self-awareness (a different specific self-awareness), even though there would be no difference in the chemistry of the two brains.
Please present evidence for this claim.

Dave
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Old 1st December 2017, 08:27 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The new brain would be different in all those respects -- but, it would also be different in its emergent property of self-awareness (a different specific self-awareness), even though there would be no difference in the chemistry of the two brains. The bread involves nothing analogous to your self-awareness.
The bread has plenty of emergent properties.

What's been asked of you is to tell us how consciousness differs from other emergent properties in any respect other than the value you assign to it.
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Old 1st December 2017, 08:28 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But also, as noted previously, I'm happy to treat it your way -- that your particular self-awareness was determined by your particular sperm and ovum and the likelihood of the current existence of your particular self-awareness is still something like 1/10100.
No, it's not "something" like that number. You invented that number and have made no effort to justify its use.

Furthermore, you have not explained how being immortal makes you more likely.
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Old 1st December 2017, 08:40 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
it would also be different in its emergent property of self-awareness (a different specific self-awareness), even though there would be no difference in the chemistry of the two brains.
1. There's no such thing as "specific" self-awareness, for the umpteenth time.

2. Your claim that there would be a difference in two identical things is nonsense and is unsupported by any facts, logic, or evidence.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I'm happy to treat it your way -- that your particular self-awareness was determined by your particular sperm and ovum
That's not what anyone is saying. Nobody but you is obsessed with sperm or ovum in this conversation. They're saying that self awareness is a property that a functioning brain can exhibit. Sperm and eggs don't have brains so they're not relevant.

Two identical people would both be self aware and would have identical memories, opinions, etc. until or unless something happened differently to them AFTER the copy was made. Focusing on genetics makes no sense, as that's just one of many different things that would need to be identical between them.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
the likelihood of the current existence of your particular self-awareness is still something like 1/10100.
Cool random number! What was the likelihood of Znarfblatt Beeplegorp existing? Very small? Does the fact that they don't exist confirm materialism? There are INFINITE people that don't exist, and only a finite number that do. That would seem to mean that your formula is wrong, since most people don't exist AS PREDICTED BY YOUR FORMULA'S VERSION OF MATERIALISM. Therefore it is confirmed, and you're not immortal.
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Old 1st December 2017, 08:41 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- No -- but, the only differences (I think) would be time, space and specific atoms.

- The new brain would be different in all those respects -- but, it would also be different in its emergent property of self-awareness (a different specific self-awareness), even though there would be no difference in the chemistry of the two brains.

Why would the consciousnesses produce by two identical brains be different? What would the difference be?
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Old 1st December 2017, 08:47 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- No -- but, the only differences (I think) would be time, space and specific atoms.

- The new brain would be different in all those respects -- but, it would also be different in its emergent property of self-awareness (a different specific self-awareness), even though there would be no difference in the chemistry of the two brains. The bread involves nothing analogous to your self-awareness.

- But also, as noted previously, I'm happy to treat it your way -- that your particular self-awareness was determined by your particular sperm and ovum and the likelihood of the current existence of your particular self-awareness is still something like 1/10100.
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
They only reason they have different specific self-awarenesses is because they are two different, specific brains. The only difference between the two instances of self-awareness is that they come from two separate brains. 1) Time, space and specific atoms are the only way the selves are different.



2) It's not "my" way. It's the scientific model of human consciousness. It's not something I just made up.
- Re #1: Can you replace "selves" with "self-awarenesses"?
- Re #2: I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I can't find anything on Google making that claim.
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Old 1st December 2017, 08:50 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Re #1: Can you replace "selves" with "self-awarenesses"?
I could but it wouldn't make a difference.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Re #2: I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I can't find anything on Google making that claim.
You can't find anything on Google supporting the claim that the scientific explanation for consciousness is that it arises from a living brain?

What about the books on consciousness you read?
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:03 AM   #312
RoboTimbo
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- No -- but, the only differences (I think) would be time, space and specific atoms.
Ah, good. Just like two identical Jabbas.

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- The new brain would be different in all those respects -- but, it would also be different in its emergent property of self-awareness
Like the two identical loaves of bread having two different identical aromas of bread?

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(a different specific self-awareness),
Changing the word from 'particular' to 'specific' doesn't make 1+4=7.

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even though there would be no difference in the chemistry of the two brains.
Ah, good. You agree that the two would be identical.

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The bread involves nothing analogous to your self-awareness.
Yes they do. Loaves of bread also have processes which, in our thought experiment of perfect duplicates, would have identical but separate processes. When you repeat your lie about not understanding, is it a different lie? Does that make your lie immortal?

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- But also, as noted previously, I'm happy to treat it your way --
You seem even happier to misrepresent materialism as an optional choice selected at random by your interlocutors. If you would be honest, you will remember that YOU chose to attempt to falsify the materialist model.

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that your particular self-awareness
When you repeat your lie, does that make it immortal? Is it the same lie? How does 'particular' apply to what you've called a process?

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was determined by your particular sperm and ovum
Why are you bringing in genetics now? I suppose if you're going to drown in ignorance, it doesn't matter that you make the pool deeper.

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and the likelihood of the current existence of your particular self-awareness
I'm starting to think that your lie IS immortal.

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is still something like 1/10100.
Good round numbers often come out of good round orifices.
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:06 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Re #1: Can you replace "selves" "SOULS" with "self-awarenesses" "SOULS"?
Yes, that seems to work fine.
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- Re #2: I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I can't find anything on Google making that claim.
LOL.
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:08 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
You are just another loaf of bread.
All in all it's just another bread in the wall
All in all you're just another bread in the wall
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:09 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
even though there would be no difference in the chemistry of the two brains.
False assertion
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:26 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
[T]he only differences (I think) would be time, space and specific atoms.
And that is materialism.

Quote:
The new brain would be different in all those respects -- but, it would also be different in its emergent property of self-awareness...
No, it would be the same in that respect. Claiming that one property is somehow magically different than all the others is special pleading.

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...(a different specific self-awareness)
No, there's no notion under materialism of a "specific" self-awareness, just as in automotive engineering there is no "specific" going-60-mph. You're specially pleading self-awareness to be an entity instead of the property it is under materialism.

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But also, as noted previously, I'm happy to treat it your way -- that your particular self-awareness was determined by your particular sperm and ovum and the likelihood of the current existence of your particular self-awareness is still something like 1/10100.
That's your way, not our way. You're constantly trying to introduce inappropriate terminology like "particular" and "specific" to beg the notion that self-awareness is an entity. And you're the one who interpolated embryology into this, where it doesn't belong. The materialist aspects of the human mind aren't a special product of embryology; it is simply a collection of matter exhibiting an emergent property. Collections of matter under materialism may exhibit emergent properties no matter in what way the collection arose.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Can you replace "selves" with "self-awarenesses"?
Of course, and I would even encourage it because "self" alone wrongly suggests it would be an entity under materialism. "Self-awareness" more accurately describes the process materialism envisions produces the effect we observe as E. And that's why I use "sense of self" rather than just "self." Under materialism this is a process, not an entity. You don't have to model it as a process when you're reckoning your ~H, but you do have to when you're talking about H.

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I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I can't find anything on Google making that claim.
Ha, ha! You can't find any references to the scientific model of consciousness arguing that self-awareness is the product of a functioning human brain? It took me about 90 seconds to find the first scientific paper on cognitive neuroscience that purports to correlate consciousness to various measurable aspects of brain activity.

But why would you stop at Google? When you were so excited about Bayes you had no problem seeking out not one but two academic experts on statistics to vet your claims. You have access to world-class scientists. Why limit your ability to verify your critics' claims to your own Google fu?
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Old 1st December 2017, 09:59 AM   #317
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I think we should continue with relevant Casablanca quotes.

Jabba, if you are immortal then:

"Who are you really, and what were you before? What did you do and what did you think"
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:08 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
I think we should continue with relevant Casablanca quotes.

Jabba, if you are immortal then:

"Who are you really, and what were you before? What did you do and what did you think"
You're trying to use logic and reason on jabba. That's his least vulnerable spot.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:43 AM   #319
The Sparrow
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You're trying to use logic and reason on jabba. That's his least vulnerable spot.
Touche!
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:47 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You're trying to use logic and reason on jabba. That's his least vulnerable spot.
Ah, you forget the claimed army of silent, lurking supporters Jabba claims to have. What effect will this have on those?
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