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Tags donald trump , Michael Flynn , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 1st December 2017, 09:50 AM   #41
TheL8Elvis
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Maybe I am blind, but I can't find your italicized text in the link.
You're not.

It was a tweet and a video clip and a link.

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/936628560374071296

Also see:
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...s-box-in-trump
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:06 AM   #42
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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...lea/913350001/

After over 33 years of military service to our country, including nearly five years in combat away from my family, and then my decision to continue to serve the United States, it has been extraordinarily painful to endure these many months of false accusations of "treason" and other outrageous acts. Such false accusations are contrary to everything I have ever done and stood for. But I recognize that the actions I acknowledged in court today were wrong, and, through my faith in God, I am working to set things right. My guilty plea and agreement to cooperate with the Special Counsel's Office reflect a decision I made in the best interests of my family and of our country. I accept full responsibility for my actions.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:21 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If it was the extent of what they were able to charge him with, what would be the different external hallmarks?
A non plea deal would be more likely to plead not guilty.
Lots of things can happen at trial, even for a man who knows he is guilty.
This is of course speculative, and not proof, but there is some weight to the idea.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:23 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
okay.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/micha...ry?id=50849354

ABC’s Brian Ross says a source familiar with the matter says Flynn is prepared to testify against Trump, members of his family, Trump staff, & that Trump ordered him to contact the Russians. Ross says Flynn made the decision to cooperate 24 hours ago

Probably just "overblown and overhyped in the minds of progressives." though.
Flynn doesn't appear to be testifying to anything illegal outside his own behavior.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:29 AM   #45
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Seth Abramson has been twittering nonstop about this.

My takeaways of his feed:

1) For Flynn to receive a single charge, his information must have been extremely good.

2) Mueller called in Kushner last week to catch him in lies re: Flynn.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:30 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I think it's very much a part of the battle to remove Trump from office with an obstruction of justice impeachment. There is a reason that Trump tried so hard to protect Flynn, and why so many Trump people lied about so many Russian contacts, and if it turns out to be because Trump was aware of illegal activities, I do believe he will be impeached.
The problem is that impeachment is, in the final analysis, a political process. An impeachable offense is something that a majority of the House of Representatives believes is an impeachable offense. Convicting and removing a president requires 2/3 of the Senate. I have doubts that there is anything that will convince enough Republicans in either body to get rid of Trump. The mid-terms will probably change the makeup of Congress, but it seems likely that getting 2/3 of the Senate to convict will be next to impossible. I'm afraid we are stuck with Trump until 2021.

When Nixon resigned, there were enough Republicans who cared about the integrity of the presidency to convince Nixon to resign rather than be impeached and removed. I don't think there are enough Republicans now who care about the integrity of the presidency to make resignation or removal happen. I will be pleasantly surprised if I am wrong.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:31 AM   #47
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Contacting Russia about the sanctions during the transition seems normal to me.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:34 AM   #48
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According to 'sources' and person labeled a 'Flynn confidant', Flynn to testify that Trump asked him to contact Russians.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/01/flyn...s-reports.html
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:34 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think part of it is that his actual activities have been overblown and overhyped in the minds of progressives. They probably include a lot of speculation, a lot of supposition, and a lot of wishful thinking.

And I think part of it is that it's not what you know, it's what you can prove. As a great man might have said, you go to trial with the charges you have, not the charges you wish to have or plan to have at a later date.

But hey, look on the bright side: They got Martha Stewart for the same thing. They got Al Capone for tax evasion. They almost got Bill Clinton for perjury.
I don't think he would have plead guilty to anything if you were right.

If all they have a chance to prove is this minor charge, make them prove it. There is very little downside to a not-guilty plea if they have nothing more.

At the very least, it appears that Flynn and his attorneys think they are avoiding more serious charges that have actual evidence behind them by pleading guilty to this one.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:36 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
The problem is that impeachment is, in the final analysis, a political process. An impeachable offense is something that a majority of the House of Representatives believes is an impeachable offense. Convicting and removing a president requires 2/3 of the Senate. I have doubts that there is anything that will convince enough Republicans in either body to get rid of Trump. The mid-terms will probably change the makeup of Congress, but it seems likely that getting 2/3 of the Senate to convict will be next to impossible. I'm afraid we are stuck with Trump until 2021.

When Nixon resigned, there were enough Republicans who cared about the integrity of the presidency to convince Nixon to resign rather than be impeached and removed. I don't think there are enough Republicans now who care about the integrity of the presidency to make resignation or removal happen. I will be pleasantly surprised if I am wrong.
If they pass their tax "reform" what more use do they have for Trump? Pence will fit in just fine for their evil agenda.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:37 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
According to 'sources' and person labeled a 'Flynn confidant', Flynn to testify that Trump asked him to contact Russians.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/01/flyn...s-reports.html
Which isn't illegal or even unusual.

But I don't think it was Trump.

Most pundits think it was Kushner.

Part of Flynn's testimony would naturally include the reason he contacted Russia.

Quote:
Jim Sciutto‏Verified account @jimsciutto

Important - Flynn says he was told to contact Russians: According the FBI statement, Flynn communicated with Kislyak after being asked by a senior Trump transition official to find out how foreign governments stood on the coming UN Security Council resolution about Israel.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:39 AM   #52
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Will Trump be tried as an adult?
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:43 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Will Trump be tried as an adult?
No, but he may be tried as a dult.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:45 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
No, but he may be tried as a dult.
Touche
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:45 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Contacting Russia about the sanctions during the transition seems normal to me.
May have been illegal.

Someone might correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the U.S. has laws against non-government people negotiating with foreign governments on its behalf. Since Trump hadn't been sworn in yet, he had no legal authority to initiate any contacts with Russia about sanctions, military cooperation, or any sort of economic or diplomatic matters.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:47 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Which isn't illegal or even unusual.
Last I checked it was. He was doing this to undermine the CURRENT administration before the Trumpistas took over in January 2017.

Logan Act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:50 AM   #57
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They've already prepared a meme that it was to initiate discussions on what to do about Syria, and that this was the kind of thing done all the time.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:50 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Or he cut a deal. Is that not also a possibility?
Actually I assume that he did cut a deal. I just question your premise that it must have been a yuuuge deal.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:53 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
May have been illegal.

Someone might correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the U.S. has laws against non-government people negotiating with foreign governments on its behalf. Since Trump hadn't been sworn in yet, he had no legal authority to initiate any contacts with Russia about sanctions, military cooperation, or any sort of economic or diplomatic matters.
Sounds weak to me, he was the incoming NSA and would be expected to be contacting foreign governments.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:54 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't think he would have plead guilty to anything if you were right.

If all they have a chance to prove is this minor charge, make them prove it. There is very little downside to a not-guilty plea if they have nothing more.

At the very least, it appears that Flynn and his attorneys think they are avoiding more serious charges that have actual evidence behind them by pleading guilty to this one.
It's kind of like poker, though, isn't it? Everybody has incomplete information. You know what cards you hold. You know what cards are on the table. You may have some idea of the cards the other guy holds, but without knowing for sure, you have to weigh risk and reward.
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:55 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Last I checked it was. He was doing this to undermine the CURRENT administration before the Trumpistas took over in January 2017.

Logan Act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act
When was that last used?

Mueller did not charge Flynn with that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.c8d31dd0ebee
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:56 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
When was that last used?

Mueller did not charge Flynn with that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.c8d31dd0ebee
Exactly, because it sounds like he copped a deal to cooperate.

Last edited by chrispy; 1st December 2017 at 10:57 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:58 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
Exactly, because it sounds like he copped a deal to cooperate.
I doubt the Logan Act ever even came up...but I've been wrong once or twice in my life...
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Old 1st December 2017, 10:59 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I doubt the Logan Act ever even came up...but I've been wrong once or twice in my life...
That is once or twice more than Trump, who is always right.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:02 AM   #65
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Ken White of Popehat, a former federal prosecutor turned defense attorney, offered some advice a while back: If the FBI is asking you questions about something specific, they probably already know the answer and are seeing if you will lie. Then they've got you.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:04 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Actually I assume that he did cut a deal. I just question your premise that it must have been a yuuuge deal.
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Sounds weak to me, he was the incoming NSA and would be expected to be contacting foreign governments.
https://twitter.com/OrinKerr/status/936646085543694337
Judge Napolitano on @FoxNews right now about the Flynn charges: "This is probably the tip of a prosecutorial iceberg. This is a nightmare for Donald Trump."

The consensus, even on fox news, is this is yuuuge.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:04 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Contacting Russia about the sanctions during the transition seems normal to me.

Flynn apparently didn't think so, or else he wouldn't have felt the need to lie to the FBI about it. That could mean the contact was either not normal or not about the sanctions.

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 1st December 2017 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:05 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
https://twitter.com/OrinKerr/status/936646085543694337
Judge Napolitano on @FoxNews right now about the Flynn charges: "This is probably the tip of a prosecutorial iceberg. This is a nightmare for Donald Trump."

The consensus, even on fox news, is this is yuuuge.
If he loses Fox, it's over for him...
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:05 AM   #69
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So when Flynn wrote his resignation letter admitting to misleading the Trump admin about his Russian contacts, he had already misled the FBI about them, too?
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:07 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
https://twitter.com/OrinKerr/status/936646085543694337
Judge Napolitano on @FoxNews right now about the Flynn charges: "This is probably the tip of a prosecutorial iceberg. This is a nightmare for Donald Trump."

The consensus, even on fox news, is this is yuuuge.
I just don't see this being yuuuge or going anywhere.

I think Flynn is the end of this tunnel.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:11 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Quote:
Someone might correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the U.S. has laws against non-government people negotiating with foreign governments on its behalf. Since Trump hadn't been sworn in yet, he had no legal authority to initiate any contacts with Russia about sanctions, military cooperation, or any sort of economic or diplomatic matters.
Sounds weak to me, he was the incoming NSA and would be expected to be contacting foreign governments.
If you think the law is bad, then write your congress-critter to ask them to change it.

Until then, Flynn probably broke the law. (I'm saying "probably" because even if he did, it would have to be proven in the courts.)
I doubt the Logan Act ever even came up...
Why the doubt?

Looks like the plan is for Flynn to plead guilty. Often such deals are based on dropping some charges in exchange for a guilty plea. Flynn may have broken the Logan act. Makes sense that it would be one of the charges that would be dropped to obtain a guilty plea.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:14 AM   #72
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They had already listened to and investigated Flynn's calls a while ago with respect to "collusion", and found none. Presumably they found Flynn lying to the FBI about those calls around the time this article came out, late January. They did not charge Flynn with a Logan Act violation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...32c_story.html

FBI reviewed Flynn’s calls with Russian ambassador but found nothing illicit
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:15 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I just don't see this being yuuuge or going anywhere.

I think Flynn is the end of this tunnel.
OK. And I see you have backed up your opinion with ... ??

IOW - why should I give your opinion a second glance over all the legal professionals claiming this is yuuuge ?
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:15 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I just don't see this being yuuuge or going anywhere.
I think Flynn is the end of this tunnel.
Did you think that when Mueller started his investigation?

How about after Manafort and company were charged?

Will this be a case of the ever-expanding tunnel, where after every charge, you claim "Ok, NOW that's the end"?

We still have Trump Jr. and his "We met with Russians about adoptions but I still thought we'd get dirt on Hillary". And we still have Kushner and his invitation to Wikileaks. So looks like there's still plenty of fertile ground for investigation.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:18 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
They had already listened to and investigated Flynn's calls a while ago with respect to "collusion", and found none. Presumably they found Flynn lying to the FBI about those calls around the time this article came out, late January. They did not charge Flynn with a Logan Act violation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...32c_story.html

FBI reviewed Flynn’s calls with Russian ambassador but found nothing illicit

You're missing the point. This isn't necessarily about what Flynn did, but what Flynn knows.

Remember, this is all taking place within a much larger investigation. If the FBI could charge Flynn with lying to them all the way back in January, and that was all they had, we probably wouldn't be hearing about the official charge over 10 months later. They likely used that time to get more out of him than we're currently aware of.

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Old 1st December 2017, 11:19 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
If you think the law is bad, then write your congress-critter to ask them to change it.

Until then, Flynn probably broke the law. (I'm saying "probably" because even if he did, it would have to be proven in the courts.)
I doubt the Logan Act ever even came up...
Why the doubt?

Looks like the plan is for Flynn to plead guilty. Often such deals are based on dropping some charges in exchange for a guilty plea. Flynn may have broken the Logan act. Makes sense that it would be one of the charges that would be dropped to obtain a guilty plea.
It's a very gray area because Flynn can say that he believed he had governmental authorization to make the contacts, since an incoming admin official directed him. The Act is specifically about contacts without authorization.

It's not clear at all and would be a very shaky prosecution, imo.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:21 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's kind of like poker, though, isn't it? Everybody has incomplete information. You know what cards you hold. You know what cards are on the table. You may have some idea of the cards the other guy holds, but without knowing for sure, you have to weigh risk and reward.
It's a lot like poker. Except he knows more about what the other side could have than the average poker player.

If he is completely innocent, that would be like knowing that the other player can't have any face cards or aces. And yet he is playing like a guy with a bad hand.

Folding his pair of eights is a pretty good tell that he knows there are higher cards in the deck, and the other player likely has a few of them.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:22 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
You're missing the point. This isn't necessarily about what Flynn did, but what Flynn knows.

If the FBI could charge Flynn with lying to them all the way back in January, we probably wouldn't be hearing about the official charge over 10 months later. They likely used that time to get way more out of him than we're currently aware of.
Mueller was appointed in May.

The FBI interviews in question were in January regarding Flynn's calls and election collusion. Long before Mueller was appointed. This was a separate FBI investigation of collusion that did not result in any collusion or Logan Act charges.
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:23 AM   #79
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Old 1st December 2017, 11:23 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Actually I assume that he did cut a deal. I just question your premise that it must have been a yuuuge deal.
Not just me:

Quote:
Napolitano said the potential penalty on a charge of lying to the FBI is minimal compared to the 60 or so years Flynn could have faced on other allegations.

"With his guilty plea, he's reduced that to somewhere between six and 12 months. That is an enormous, gargantuan, monumental reduction. That doesn't come easily and it doesn't come for free
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