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Tags auras , hallucinations

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Old 4th December 2017, 08:22 AM   #41
SOdhner
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
All of a sudden I see what looks like auras, see what looks like ghosts, and feel what seems to be other people's emotions.
I'd start by getting details.

1. For the auras - what, specifically, are you seeing? Just around people? Around everything? Are they uniform or multicolored? Do they change? Is there a correlation between the color of aura and the color of clothing? Can you see auras in the dark? If not, why not? What's your range? Can you see auras around people in pictures or on television? Traditionally the "aura" extends through clothing, what else can it extend through? Can you see them with your eyes closed? Does the aura seem to illuminate things around it?

2. For the ghosts - are they everywhere? What do you mean "what looks like ghosts"? I personally don't know what a ghost looks like. A detailed human form, but white and translucent? A bedsheet with holes for eyes? Slimer? I'm not just joking, I really would need to know what form these things take that, to you, say "ghost". Do they move in a predictable pattern? Do they block your vision of things behind them? Can you see them through other objects? Can you see them in the dark? Do they make sound? Do they appear to interact in any way with the environment around them?

3. For the emotions - what's your range? Can you feel the emotions through walls? If you have to look at someone, how do you know it's not just you picking up on visual cues? If you don't have to look at someone, how do you know you're right about the emotion you're detecting? Are the emotions distinct or just a vague feeling? If there are multiple people in range, can you tell whose emotion you're feeling? If someone isn't feeling anything particularly strongly, do you feel anything from them? Is hungry an emotion? Traditionally it isn't but I know it's a stronger feeling for me at any given moment than anger, joy, etc. Can you detect what direction these emotions are coming from?

Obviously my default theory is that you're totally wrong. You could be lying, delusional, high, or any number of other things that I consider infinitely more likely than you being psychic.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
But wouldn't it be more likely, given that "knowledge" of the third eye has been around since the dawn of civilization,
Various claims have been around for different amounts of time, and people often lump them together despite the contraditions to make it sound like they're all the same stories.

Find me a source that dates back to the dawn of civilization that is consistent with what you have described. I really don't think you can. What you're describing is a very modern take on a general melange of psychic ideas. It doesn't actually match any of the older things.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
that the ancients who propagated this information weren't just coming up with cool ways to hallucinate?
There is no "THE" ancients. There are lots and lots of different old dead guys from different cultures with different - and conflicting - stories.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
But what I was getting at is though the scenario can be explained by hallucination, is that really probable? It may be probable to you, but it is not probable to me.
It's far more probable than psychic powers. Also, and this is relevant to the "it's been around since the dawn of mankind" stuff, if these powers were real (and could be gained by going "OMMM" for twenty minutes a day) we would all have them. It would be accepted by everyone. You'd have to be a crackpot to not believe in it. Instead, we still have ZERO actual evidence for it. Doesn't that tell you something? In a world of eight billion people not one can prove this power that has been around forever? But how many people hallucinate? How many people lie? How many people do drugs? There are a lot of materialistic explanations that could do the trick and are observed every day, and then there's the one that would mean the whole world is a lie. Which of those is more likely?

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
To exaggerate a bit and illustrate what I mean, it's like saying that there are no aliens in the universe. While that may be true, it does not seem very probable to me.
More like "there are no aliens in my refrigerator". I'm not aware of any science-minded posters here that think there are no aliens in the universe. The universe is big, and we have every reason to believe that alien life is out there somewhere. We don't make specific claims about what it looks like, whether it's more or less intelligent than us, etc. and there has been zero evidence that anything otherworldly has visited Earth. But alien life existing somewhere in the universe? I don't think you're going to get a lot of argument about that one.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Have you tried it?
Most of us have tried to use psychic powers at one point or another. Sometimes just as kids, some as adults. Nobody in the history of mankind has done so.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I've tried the method above and have felt a pressure in the area where they say the third eye is located, I never, when not doing the method feel a pressure in that area. I know you may say it's a placebo effect, but I think if you were to tell someone who didn't know what the effects would be to try this method they would feel a pressure in that area too.
1. You might be imagining it. If we wanted to test that, we'd need to have someone do it that had NO IDEA that they might feel this "pressure". If we tell them about it, or ask too directly, it puts the idea in their head.

2. It may be an actual thing. Making sounds causes vibrations in your head, and making that particular one for a prolonged period could absolutely give you an odd sensation somewhere on your head. That wouldn't be proof of psychic powers.

3. If you've done this a bunch but haven't gained any psychic powers, why are you so sure it works?

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
But do you know for certain that this stuff isn't true? If you don't know for certain, then there could be a possibility that it is true.
I can't prove there's not a dragon following me that uses magic to vanish every time I try to look at him. (Others can see him but don't tell me because they're in on it!) The standard of "you can't prove this isn't real" is useless because it applies to literally anything you can think up. Fairies. Us being in the Matrix. The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I know that there's no magic with all the certainty I could possibly have about the most obvious fact.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The scenario is hypothetical, yet, it has also been done and has happened.
How do you know? What have you done to actually test it?
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:23 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Well, this claim is mostly empirical, I do not know how to prove to you a priori that this is possible. But, I can assure you, that there have been people who have done the method or other methods to "open" their third eyes and they claimed to perceive weird sensations, whether they are lying, I don't know, whether the sensations are really what they look like, I also don't know. I have tried this experiment on and off, and have felt a pressure in the area of my third eye. I have not done it long enough to actually "open" my third eye, but I might.
Why would we have a third eye? What are you actually opening?
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:24 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
So we know what you are describing.
Why is that important?
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:32 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Why is that important?
Multiple reasons:
What you're describing might be a known phenomenon.
We can cross-reference descriptions to see if people are perceiving the same thing.
We can try to devise a test based on the description (i.e. can you see the aura extending beyond the person, even if you can't see the actual person? Then the wall test from upthread would work.)
And probably more...
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:36 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why would we have a third eye? What are you actually opening?
I don't know why we would have a third eye, but the third eye is supposedly a gland in your body called the pineal gland, located kind of in the center of your head. But, in Tantrism, the pineal gland is also where, supposedly, a chakra called the Ajna chakra is located, one of supposedly seven main chakras situated like a column on various glands and areas of the body.

If you want to know about chakras, here's a wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra

And if you want to know more about the third eye, here is another wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:43 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Multiple reasons:
What you're describing might be a known phenomenon.
We can cross-reference descriptions to see if people are perceiving the same thing.
We can try to devise a test based on the description (i.e. can you see the aura extending beyond the person, even if you can't see the actual person? Then the wall test from upthread would work.)
And probably more...
Since we aren't probably going to do any experiments (at least in this thread) I can see why it's important to distinguish phenomena perceived by the third eye from known mundane phenomena. But what about the fact that a lot of people go most of their life without perceiving any of these weird things, then all of a sudden when they open their third eye they start to see those things?
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:46 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
What is the point of a burden of proof? Can we not just drop that?
Ok, as you wish. I am god. All things moral in the universe flow from my own values, and from now on you must live your life according to my decrees.

Prove me wrong. Once you've thought about that for a few seconds, you might understand why, no, we can't just drop the burden of proof. We won't entertain crazy claims just because you don't like the implications of you having to prove them. If you want to change the paradigm, give us a reason.

Quote:
That doesn't follow necessarily. It is just probable.
Overwhelmingly probable, which is why I feel safe in concluding so.
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:50 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Why is that important?
You must be joking.
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:57 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Since we aren't probably going to do any experiments (at least in this thread) I can see why it's important to distinguish phenomena perceived by the third eye from known mundane phenomena.
Because, even if we aren't going to perform any tests, we are still discussing said phenomena.
Claiming that we don't need to know what we're discussing because you don't intend to test anything anyway comes across as... less than honest.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
But what about the fact that a lot of people go most of their life without perceiving any of these weird things, then all of a sudden when they open their third eye they start to see those things?
What about it? People who have gone most of their lives without epilepsy can still develop seizures later in life. (Not saying that that's the case here, just that the fact that something starts later in life, or has a specific event associated with it in someone's mind says nothing about the cause).
And it also has no bearing on the testability... No matter when people start seeing auras, if they really can see them, it's verifiable.
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:59 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Why is that important?
Because without agreed meaning your words could mean anything.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:00 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I don't know why we would have a third eye, but the third eye is supposedly a gland in your body called the pineal gland, located kind of in the center of your head. But, in Tantrism, the pineal gland is also where, supposedly, a chakra called the Ajna chakra is located, one of supposedly seven main chakras situated like a column on various glands and areas of the body.

If you want to know about chakras, here's a wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra

And if you want to know more about the third eye, here is another wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_eye
So you are trying to open your pineal gland?

What does that mean?
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:10 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The scenario is this:

I do a practice that is intended to "open" my third eye. The practice is chanting the sound OM for 10 minutes a day, twice a day. I do the practice for a couple of weeks, and eventually something happens, you can call it my third eye opening just for the sake of argument. All of a sudden I see what looks like auras, see what looks like ghosts, and feel what seems to be other people's emotions. What would you, if you are a materialist, say about this as a materialist? And for the sake of the thread we'll just say a materialist is someone who believes that there are no supernatural entities.
As a capitalist, I'd say that if you can reliably produce the effect on demand, you should be able to make money selling it as a service.

It doesn't really matter to me how much you believe it's true. But if you can convince other people that you're providing something of real value to them? That would get my attention.

Let me know when you've made this into at least a part time job.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:13 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I don't know why we would have a third eye, but the third eye is supposedly a gland in your body called the pineal gland, located kind of in the center of your head.
So, just a fun educational aside: this isn't baloney.

I mean... there's some processed meat in there. But! The pineal gland is linked to a sort of proto-eye, some light sensitive cells, in the middle of the head. I mean, obviously humans don't have that, but the "third eye" is a reference to a literal actual light-sensing organ. The pineal gland then detects if it's day or night and regulates sleep cycles.

Some animals still have this third eye, in humans the pineal gland isn't connected to anything like that but it still produces melatonin, which tells your body it's bedtime. I give that stuff to my youngest every night because otherwise she fights sleep like you wouldn't believe. I've taken some myself, it's good stuff.

So we know exactly what the pineal gland is, and it has nothing to do with psychic powers. If it had the ability to give us these abilities then

1. Pretty much all vertebrates would be psychic.
2. It would be an evolutionary advantage and would have developed way more by now.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:15 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
What if you were to open your third eye and start perceiving usual things yourself?
What if I actually have had experience of believing that I had experienced such things but by the process of putting such beliefs to the test realised that they were products of my own desire to believe? You'll find many sceptics who started as believers.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:16 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As a capitalist, I'd say that if you can reliably produce the effect on demand, you should be able to make money selling it as a service.

It doesn't really matter to me how much you believe it's true. But if you can convince other people that you're providing something of real value to them? That would get my attention.

Let me know when you've made this into at least a part time job.
Plenty of people sell products that don't exist, so I don't think this follows, because while you are correct that if he has a power he can make money with it, he could make money even without that power by simply convincing others that he has it, and thus let you know that he has a part time job conning people without demonstrating that he has said ability.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:23 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The scenario is this:

I do a practice that is intended to "open" my third eye. The practice is chanting the sound OM for 10 minutes a day, twice a day. I do the practice for a couple of weeks, and eventually something happens, you can call it my third eye opening just for the sake of argument. All of a sudden I see what looks like auras, see what looks like ghosts, and feel what seems to be other people's emotions. What would you, if you are a materialist, say about this as a materialist? And for the sake of the thread we'll just say a materialist is someone who believes that there are no supernatural entities.
Isn't that basically Transcendental Meditation?

Why do you assume that what you see is in any way real, when teachers of the practice themselves claim that it's basically just allowing your mind you think of random images and thoughts in a relaxed state? Also, "om" is apparently one of the worst mantras for this exercise.

I, as a common bloke, think you're not doing all that much in the way of "spirituality," and John C. Riley, another common bloke, also practices TM, lol. I'm not sure if he can see ghosts, though.

Pretty basic stuff, tbh, I know a ton of people who practice it, and none of them talk about opening their third eye, or seeing ghosts and feeling emotions. It's basic meditation which you're trying to spin into some mystical state of being, bit cringe-inducing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transc...tion_technique


Practice of the technique includes a process called "unstressing" which combines "effortless relaxation with spontaneous imagery and emotion". TM teachers caution their students not to be alarmed by random thoughts and to "attend" to the mantra. Scottish chess grandmaster Jonathan Rowson has said that his TM practice gives "a feeling of serenity, energy and balance", but does not provide "any powerful insight into your own mind".
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:27 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
It's far more probable than psychic powers. Also, and this is relevant to the "it's been around since the dawn of mankind" stuff, if these powers were real (and could be gained by going "OMMM" for twenty minutes a day) we would all have them. It would be accepted by everyone. You'd have to be a crackpot to not believe in it. Instead, we still have ZERO actual evidence for it. Doesn't that tell you something? In a world of eight billion people not one can prove this power that has been around forever? But how many people hallucinate? How many people lie? How many people do drugs? There are a lot of materialistic explanations that could do the trick and are observed every day, and then there's the one that would mean the whole world is a lie. Which of those is more likely?
Yes, the fact that this information has supposedly been around for a very long time and that it has not yet been proven under scientific scrutiny does make it seem less likely that it is a real phenomenon. Yet, are you sure you aren't just being prejudiced? The whole reason humans may not have easily available proof of the supernatural could be because there is a barrier between the physical and the supernatural and that this barrier only comes down in specific circumstances, so, just because proof is scarce doesn't mean that this realm doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
3. If you've done this a bunch but haven't gained any psychic powers, why are you so sure it works?
I have only done a week or two at a time, it takes a couple of months for it to work I presume, but I have felt sensations that suggested progress was being made.

Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
I know that there's no magic with all the certainty I could possibly have about the most obvious fact.
If you know, then could you demonstrate it to me?



Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
How do you know? What have you done to actually test it?
If I'm being strictly honest, I don't know that this information has been around since the dawn of civilization, I have just read that somewhere and seen pictures of various engravings and statues that were claimed to be from ancient civilizations. But, right now, I don't think that is actually that important to this claim.

Last edited by Wonder234; 4th December 2017 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:33 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Isn't that basically Transcendental Meditation?

Why do you assume that what you see is in any way real, when teachers of the practice themselves claim that it's basically just allowing your mind you think of random images and thoughts in a relaxed state? Also, "om" is apparently one of the worst mantras for this exercise.

I, as a common bloke, think you're not doing all that much in the way of "spirituality," and John C. Riley, another common bloke, also practices TM, lol. I'm not sure if he can see ghosts, though.

Pretty basic stuff, tbh, I know a ton of people who practice it, and none of them talk about opening their third eye, or seeing ghosts and feeling emotions. It's basic meditation which you're trying to spin into some mystical state of being, bit cringe-inducing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transc...tion_technique


Practice of the technique includes a process called "unstressing" which combines "effortless relaxation with spontaneous imagery and emotion". TM teachers caution their students not to be alarmed by random thoughts and to "attend" to the mantra. Scottish chess grandmaster Jonathan Rowson has said that his TM practice gives "a feeling of serenity, energy and balance", but does not provide "any powerful insight into your own mind".
I am not talking about transcendental meditation, and there is no visualization involved in this process.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:36 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I am not talking about transcendental meditation, and there is no visualization involved in this process.
Yes, there is visualization involved in the process:

Practice of the technique includes a process called "unstressing" which combines "effortless relaxation with spontaneous imagery and emotion". TM teachers caution their students not to be alarmed by random thoughts and to "attend" to the mantra. Scottish chess grandmaster Jonathan Rowson has said that his TM practice gives "a feeling of serenity, energy and balance", but does not provide "any powerful insight into your own mind".

And yes, you're essentially discussing TM here but trying to spin it like it's some mystical new thing you've been doing, lol. Of course you say "om", too, that's what everyone who's new to TM thinks they have to use as their mantra. Don't worry, grasshopper, you'll soon learn the ways of the Force.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:37 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
If it had the ability to give us these abilities then

1. Pretty much all vertebrates would be psychic.
That doesn't follow because it takes training to open the third eye. It isn't just open from the get go.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:40 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
That doesn't follow because it takes training to open the third eye. It isn't just open from the get go.
More like, it takes a bit of convincing oneself that you have some unique ability that you literally do not have and cannot use for literally anything worthwhile besides getting an imagined image of some spirit that you'd just as easily get after smoking a joint and sipping some nice brandy.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:43 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
What if I actually have had experience of believing that I had experienced such things but by the process of putting such beliefs to the test realised that they were products of my own desire to believe? You'll find many sceptics who started as believers.
I like to say that I subject my beliefs to doubt, and I do do things that I think is subjecting my beliefs to doubt, but maybe I am too biased, as I do think that maybe I want to believe that this stuff is true. But so far in my process of "subjecting my beliefs to doubt" I am not convinced by naturalistic explanations. Maybe I'm not doing it the right way even though I think I am.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:43 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Yes, the fact that this information has supposedly been around for a very long time and that it has not yet been proven under scientific scrutiny does make it seem less likely that it is a real phenomenon. Yet, are you sure you aren't just being prejudiced? The whole reason humans may not have easily available proof of the supernatural could be because there is a barrier between the physical and the supernatural and that this barrier only comes down in specific circumstances, so, just because proof is scarce doesn't mean that this realm doesn't exist.
Sure, just as we might never have caught a leprechaun because we can't reach the end of the rainbow. Or that Chtulhu hasn't devoured us yet because the stars aren't in the right configuration.
Or that Jesus/Mahdi/Fenrir is waiting behind the scenes to usher in their particular version of the end of the world...

The fact that you're trying to come up with a justification for the absence of any evidence and are very hesitant to say anything that could be tested, tells me that you aren't arguing in good faith.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:51 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
The fact that you're trying to come up with a justification for the absence of any evidence and are very hesitant to say anything that could be tested, tells me that you aren't arguing in good faith. You are just trying to make us look prejudiced to reinforce your own beliefs.
If I come off that way, I am sorry, that was not my intention. I am just interested in seeing where the conversation takes us, whether that is me starting to doubt seriously what I believe, or the unlikely chance that you start to doubt that supernatural isn't real, or that the conversation ends in a stalemate.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:53 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Yes, the fact that this information has supposedly been around for a very long time and that it has not yet been proven under scientific scrutiny does make it seem less likely that it is a real phenomenon.
It really really does. This is something that would be hugely beneficial to the point where animals everywhere would have evolved psychic abilities. Everyone would learn this stuff in school. We would apply it in all sorts of areas. It would change every facet of our lives.

Oh hang on, I see a later post takes issue with the evolution part:
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
That doesn't follow because it takes training to open the third eye. It isn't just open from the get go.
You're saying these powers are linked to a physical organ. I'm saying if we had organs that gave psychic powers that would absolutely influence evolution. We'd have pineal glands the size of a grapefruit. There would be animals that hunt by detecting auras of mice. There would be mice that project their aura ten feet away to fool predators. There would be bear ghosts running around. There would be emotion-sensitive scavengers that can detect pain and fear from five miles away.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Yet, are you sure you aren't just being prejudiced?
Yes, I'm sure. I'm applying the same reasoning and logic to this that I do to any other claim.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The whole reason humans may not have easily available proof of the supernatural could be because there is a barrier between the physical and the supernatural and that this barrier only comes down in specific circumstances, so, just because proof is scarce doesn't mean that this realm doesn't exist.
Eight billion people. Hundreds of thousands of years. If it's too weak or blocked for us to figure this stuff out then it's also too weak or blocked for you to be able to know it's a real thing at all.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I have only done a week or two at a time, it takes a couple of months for it to work I presume, but I have felt sensations that suggested progress was being made.
I already pointed out the problems with those "sensations". And if you could do this in a couple of months we'd all be psychic.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
If you know, then could you demonstrate it to me?
Not easily - it's based on the sheer weight of evidence rather than any one "gotcha" thing. Surely there's SOMETHING you don't believe in? Something that you're certain doesn't exist? Do you believe a monster made of bread and automotive paint brought to life by an alien curse is living in your closet? If you're certain that's not real, if you know that's something silly and fictional, could you demonstrate it to me? Could you PROVE that it's not there?

The point is, psychic powers have been investigated. A lot. There are a lot of reasons we have to know they're not real. There's no mechanism for them. There's no measurable effect. There are lots of more plausible explanations.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
If I'm being strictly honest, I don't know that this information has been around since the dawn of civilization, I have just read that somewhere and seen pictures of various engravings and statues that were claimed to be from ancient civilizations.
Right. People love to say "oh, this is an ancient Chinese tradition..." or "oh, in many different cultures they all knew..." but it's baloney. Compare notes and they completely disagree.

Likewise, scroll back up to the top of the page and look at all my questions for the different abilities. I'm telling you right now, if we get some people together that all say they have these powers and we have them answer those questions (without the chance to compare notes) they will give different answers!
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:00 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Yes, there is visualization involved in the process:

Practice of the technique includes a process called "unstressing" which combines "effortless relaxation with spontaneous imagery and emotion". TM teachers caution their students not to be alarmed by random thoughts and to "attend" to the mantra. Scottish chess grandmaster Jonathan Rowson has said that his TM practice gives "a feeling of serenity, energy and balance", but does not provide "any powerful insight into your own mind".

And yes, you're essentially discussing TM here but trying to spin it like it's some mystical new thing you've been doing, lol. Of course you say "om", too, that's what everyone who's new to TM thinks they have to use as their mantra. Don't worry, grasshopper, you'll soon learn the ways of the Force.
The place where I learned the method, which is a school of sorts, doesn't present the method as a meditation. It did not tell me to visualize anything. It did not mention transcendental meditation. It may actually be transcendental meditation, but I believe, and without much evidence if I'm honest, that by doing the method given to me by this school, it should have the intended effect. But also what does the alleged opening of a third eye and allegedly experiencing mystical phenomena have to do with transcendental meditation?
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:00 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
If I come off that way, I am sorry, that was not my intention. I am just interested in seeing where the conversation takes us, whether that is me starting to doubt seriously what I believe, or the unlikely chance that you start to doubt that supernatural isn't real, or that the conversation ends in a stalemate.
Well, it's not about my belief, or yours. What we believe is irrelevant when we're making claims about the real world.
Something exists, or it doesn't.
There is no evidence for the supernatural.
That makes me say that it's not very likely, and you that it might be hiding.

I'm willing to adjust my opinion if evidence does come up, but I doubt there is anything that can make you change your mind, if you say that our lack of evidence is a sign something special is going on.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:18 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
That doesn't follow because it takes training to open the third eye. It isn't just open from the get go.
After having been given a proper and detailed explanation of the "third eye", you have chosen to just ignore the prosaic, and carry on with repeating the same old crap. Why is this? Why have you not responded to the explanation and the Wiki link in which this stuff is explained? Is it because you simply don't give a damn about facts?
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:21 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The place where I learned the method, which is a school of sorts, doesn't present the method as a meditation. It did not tell me to visualize anything. It did not mention transcendental meditation. It may actually be transcendental meditation, but I believe, and without much evidence if I'm honest, that by doing the method given to me by this school, it should have the intended effect. But also what does the alleged opening of a third eye and allegedly experiencing mystical phenomena have to do with transcendental meditation?
Transcendental Meditation does not teach you to visualize anything, did you read the Wiki page for it? It's exactly what you're describing. Any images visualized are merely the product of a mind that is basically almost in a resting state.

What does the alleged opening of a third eye and allegedly experiencing mystical phenomena have to do with transcendental meditation? Because it's literally the same thing, but whoever is teaching you is putting a mystical spin on it and is trying to make you buy into some silly notion that what you're doing is somehow different to this very common meditation technique. I hope you don't pay too much for this baloney.

Whoever is teaching you has essentially taken TM and has sold it on to you as some state of mystic knowledge and spiritualism, which it isn't, it's just a meditation technique practiced all over the world by very average people.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:25 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The place where I learned the method, which is a school of sorts,
Did they teach you this for free, or did you pay them money?

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I believe, and without much evidence if I'm honest, that by doing the method given to me by this school, it should have the intended effect.
Surely the school makes some specific claims? Something testable?
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:26 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
You're saying these powers are linked to a physical organ. I'm saying if we had organs that gave psychic powers that would absolutely influence evolution. We'd have pineal glands the size of a grapefruit. There would be animals that hunt by detecting auras of mice. There would be mice that project their aura ten feet away to fool predators. There would be bear ghosts running around. There would be emotion-sensitive scavengers that can detect pain and fear from five miles away.
Do you know all the ins and outs of evolution to say that the third eye would definitely not evolve?


Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Eight billion people. Hundreds of thousands of years. If it's too weak or blocked for us to figure this stuff out then it's also too weak or blocked for you to be able to know it's a real thing at all.
Or maybe just too weak or blocked to be put through scientific scrutiny. In which case, you can either keep doing experiments, change science so that it can accommodate ways of testing this phenomena more accurately, or try some way other than science.

Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
I already pointed out the problems with those "sensations". And if you could do this in a couple of months we'd all be psychic.
Are you saying that since not everyone is doing this that it's not real? It doesn't necessarily follow that if you were to do this method or any method, and all of a sudden start perceiving weird sensations (Let's say we don't know if it's actually a real ghost or aura) that it would become mainstream. I think I understand your reasoning behind this claim but people who do it may not believe they are actually perceiving spiritual phenomena and so that decreases the incentive to tell other people about it. But yes, people would be excited about it if they thought it was real and start going around telling other people about it because they think it's significant, and it would spread to the point where they would be talking about it on the news and then everyone would be doing it and talking about it. What if I were to do the method and then start perceiving things? The things I perceive may not be what I actually think they are, but if I did in fact perceive things, would that show that this method leads to something (although it may not be real) and thus that either because it is not actually perceiving spiritual phenomena and so people don't go spreading it around because they dismiss it because it's not real or that even though they don't believe it, it is still something cool but hasn't spread because something being significant or cool doesn't mean that it will spread widely throughout the culture?



Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Not easily - it's based on the sheer weight of evidence rather than any one "gotcha" thing. Surely there's SOMETHING you don't believe in? Something that you're certain doesn't exist? Do you believe a monster made of bread and automotive paint brought to life by an alien curse is living in your closet? If you're certain that's not real, if you know that's something silly and fictional, could you demonstrate it to me? Could you PROVE that it's not there?

The point is, psychic powers have been investigated. A lot. There are a lot of reasons we have to know they're not real. There's no mechanism for them. There's no measurable effect. There are lots of more plausible explanations.
If you don't mind, could you point me towards this research?
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:30 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Did they teach you this for free, or did you pay them money?
I payed for it.

Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Surely the school makes some specific claims? Something testable?
They offer proof for what they can, but in this particular case, the proof was supposed to be you doing the method and seeing what happens.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:32 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Transcendental Meditation does not teach you to visualize anything, did you read the Wiki page for it? It's exactly what you're describing. Any images visualized are merely the product of a mind that is basically almost in a resting state.

What does the alleged opening of a third eye and allegedly experiencing mystical phenomena have to do with transcendental meditation? Because it's literally the same thing, but whoever is teaching you is putting a mystical spin on it and is trying to make you buy into some silly notion that what you're doing is somehow different to this very common meditation technique. I hope you don't pay too much for this baloney.

Whoever is teaching you has essentially taken TM and has sold it on to you as some state of mystic knowledge and spiritualism, which it isn't, it's just a meditation technique practiced all over the world by very average people.
I didn't pay that much for it, but if the method produces certain experiences, even if those experiences aren't real, I still value it.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:32 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I payed for it.
You're being conned into paying for basic TM and are being told it's somehow different and more mystical. Well done, mate. They saw you coming.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:33 AM   #75
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I can't be the only one who, upon reading the words "third eye", emits a quiet snerk to myself. It has always been thus.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:33 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I didn't pay that much for it, but if the method produces certain experiences, even if those experiences aren't real, I still value it.
Here's the thing, though, you can do the exact same thing for less money and won't be lied to by a new-age hipster in the process.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:40 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Any images visualized are merely the product of a mind that is basically almost in a resting state.
Could you tell me more about this?
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:45 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
After having been given a proper and detailed explanation of the "third eye", you have chosen to just ignore the prosaic, and carry on with repeating the same old crap. Why is this? Why have you not responded to the explanation and the Wiki link in which this stuff is explained? Is it because you simply don't give a damn about facts?
I have read the wikipedia article and didn't see anything that excluded the existence of psychic powers.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:47 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Do you know all the ins and outs of evolution to say that the third eye would definitely not evolve?
Irrelevant.
It's not up to us to disprove everything that pops into your head. If you claim it evolved, show your evidence. Otherwise, stop making stuff up.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Or maybe just too weak or blocked to be put through scientific scrutiny. In which case, you can either keep doing experiments, change science so that it can accommodate ways of testing this phenomena more accurately, or try some way other than science.
Two things: we can detect individual atoms, and measure the gravity of distant stars, but these supposed super powers are too weak to detect? Then why do people claim they have real effects on our everyday world?
Secondly: whether or not we can measure these powers directly doesn't matter. If people claim they can detect certain things, we can just check to see if they're correct or not, even if we don't understand how.
And if we can't check whether or not people can do what they claim to be able to, their powers can't be distinguished from fantasy.
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Old 4th December 2017, 10:53 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Do you know all the ins and outs of evolution to say that the third eye would definitely not evolve?
Something can't evolve if it's not physically possible. So that's a silly conversation to have unless you can first prove that psychic powers are real.

But if they were real, and if there was any biological aspect to them at all, then there would be a POWERFUL selection pressure for them.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Or maybe just too weak or blocked to be put through scientific scrutiny. In which case, you can either keep doing experiments, change science so that it can accommodate ways of testing this phenomena more accurately, or try some way other than science.
I say this in absolute sincerity: I think you're confused about what the word "science" means.

Science is a process, focused on observing and testing things. It tries to be objective, so that we can truly know if something is happening or not. If you want to do something "other than science" what you're really suggesting is just blindly believing things without evidence.

And we can do that, but where do you draw the line? Do you just want us to believe the things YOU believe in without evidence? Can we expect the same of you? If I make an assertion, can I say that it's undetectable to everything and we need to just rely on my intuition?

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I think I understand your reasoning behind this claim but people who do it may not believe they are actually perceiving spiritual phenomena and so that decreases the incentive to tell other people about it.
Make up your mind. It takes practice and education, or people do it by accident and don't know what they're doing?

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
But yes, people would be excited about it if they thought it was real and start going around telling other people about it because they think it's significant, and it would spread to the point where they would be talking about it on the news and then everyone would be doing it and talking about it.
Right. And we don't see that because it's not a real thing.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
What if I were to do the method and then start perceiving things?
Then we could actually set up some tests.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
If you don't mind, could you point me towards this research?
This is going to sound like I'm trying to be unhelpful, but I'm totally serious.

There's too much of it.

There's too much, and every claim is different. Many, MANY "psychics" have been tested by many many people. If they control the experiments properly so that there's no funny business, the people fail to demonstrate anything. I can go find some study if you really want, but here's the thing: you'll just say "okay that guy was a fake, that doesn't mean they all are". And you can say that for all of them, over and over.

So sure, let me know if you want me to pick one and send it over. But I don't think that's the way to go. Instead, you should be trying to show ME an example of a study that DID prove psychic powers. I only have to be proven wrong once!

Now before you get too excited, know that it's not impossible to find pro-psychic experiments out there. The question is if they were properly conducted. Most of the notable ones have already been evaluated and the flaws have been explained in detail, so look into one yourself a little before you put it out there as your example.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I payed for it.

They offer proof for what they can, but in this particular case, the proof was supposed to be you doing the method and seeing what happens.
Pay up front, without evidence... man, I am in the wrong business!

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I have read the wikipedia article and didn't see anything that excluded the existence of psychic powers.
Well of course not! The same could be said for a Wikipedia article on shoes.

But the point is, the pineal gland is a known quantity. We know what it's for, when it evolved, and which animals have one. You're suggesting it has a secret secondary function that is somehow undetectable to science and manifests only in rare conditions in ONE species. That's silly.
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