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Old 5th December 2017, 01:28 PM   #1
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Three Orthodox Jews and a Coptic Christian walk into a Levantine Bar

The three orthodox jews are Jared Kushner, Jason Greenblatt and David Friedman, the coptic christian is Dina Powell. They make up the team Trump assigned to the task of making the "ultimate deal" in the Palestine/Israel issue, and Kushner joked about that himself at the Haim Saban Forum a few days ago.

Now it's rumoured for a few days that Trump will announce to recognize Jerusalem as capital of Israel, which is against conventions the UN and the international community have established since the late 60s. Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. This has been met with warnings and loud protests from almost every capital in the region (except Tel Aviv of course), with hothead Erdogan saying that such a decision would be "a catastrophe for all mankind" and all hell would break loose.

Yesterday Trump had telephone calls with some regional leaders including Netanyahoo and Abbas, and today it is reported that Abbas said that he was told Trump will move the US embassy to Jerusalem and announce it this week. Which is by far not as extreme a measure as recognizing the city as capital.

So this shall be a thread about the efforts of the Trump administration to solve the Israel/Palestine issue and the effects caused by them.
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Old 5th December 2017, 01:34 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
So this shall be a thread about the efforts of the Trump administration to solve the Israel/Palestine issue and the effects caused by them.
You'll have to enlighten me on the efforts to solve anything there. I haven't seen any, therefore I haven't seen any effects of those efforts.
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Old 5th December 2017, 01:39 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
You'll have to enlighten me on the efforts to solve anything there. I haven't seen any, therefore I haven't seen any effects of those efforts.

It's in the early stages, they so far have "listened". Read the linked article.
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Old 5th December 2017, 01:43 PM   #4
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I read it. It's typical Trump talk (via Jared, this time) on any issue. "I have the best plan, but I can't tell you anything about it but believe me it is the best plan ever and I will get it done because I am the best negotiator in the history of the planet."

As I said there's nothing there yet.
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Old 5th December 2017, 01:47 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
I read it. It's typical Trump talk (via Jared, this time) on any issue. "I have the best plan, but I can't tell you anything about it but believe me it is the best plan ever and I will get it done because I am the best negotiator in the history of the planet."

As I said there's nothing there yet.

If you read my OP as well you might have guessed why I thought it would be a good time to start the thread now. It could be dominating the news as soon as tomorrow. The calm before the storm.
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Old 5th December 2017, 01:51 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
If you read my OP as well you might have guessed why I thought it would be a good time to start the thread now. It could be dominating the news as soon as tomorrow. The calm before the storm.
Sorry, my bad. When you said you wanted to discuss the efforts of the Trump administration, I didn't know you wanted guessing on what they are GOING to do.

Don't worry, it won't be dominating the news for at least a few days. There's a female entertainer being accused of sexual harassment, that's good for a few more days, even though I've never heard of her.
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Old 5th December 2017, 01:55 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
If you read my OP as well you might have guessed why I thought it would be a good time to start the thread now. It could be dominating the news as soon as tomorrow. The calm before the storm.
Kushner might have trouble conducting foreign policy from a prison cell.
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Old 5th December 2017, 01:59 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The three orthodox jews are Jared Kushner, Jason Greenblatt and David Friedman, the coptic christian is Dina Powell. They make up the team Trump assigned to the task of making the "ultimate deal" in the Palestine/Israel issue, and Kushner joked about that himself at the Haim Saban Forum a few days ago.

Now it's rumoured for a few days that Trump will announce to recognize Jerusalem as capital of Israel, which is against conventions the UN and the international community have established since the late 60s. Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. This has been met with warnings and loud protests from almost every capital in the region (except Tel Aviv of course), with hothead Erdogan saying that such a decision would be "a catastrophe for all mankind" and all hell would break loose.

Yesterday Trump had telephone calls with some regional leaders including Netanyahoo and Abbas, and today it is reported that Abbas said that he was told Trump will move the US embassy to Jerusalem and announce it this week. Which is by far not as extreme a measure as recognizing the city as capital.

So this shall be a thread about the efforts of the Trump administration to solve the Israel/Palestine issue and the effects caused by them.
No. Fumble fingered Trump will simply obey his masters.
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Old 5th December 2017, 02:12 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
You'll have to enlighten me on the efforts to solve anything there. I haven't seen any, therefore I haven't seen any effects of those efforts.
Well, there's this: Jared Kushner Failed to Disclose He Led a Foundation Funding Illegal Israeli Settlements Before U.N. Vote

Originally Posted by Newsweek
Jared Kushner failed to disclose his role as a co-director of the Charles and Seryl Kushner Foundation from 2006 to 2015, a time when the group funded an Israeli settlement considered to be illegal under international law, on financial records he filed with the Office of Government Ethics earlier this year.

The latest development follows reports on Friday indicating the White House senior adviser attempted to sway a United Nations Security Council vote against an anti-settlement resolution passed just before Donald Trump took office, which condemned the structure of West Bank settlements. The failure to disclose his role in the foundation—at a time when he was being tasked with serving as the president’s Middle East peace envoy—follows a pattern of egregious omissions that would bar any other official from continuing to serve in the West Wing, experts and officials told Newsweek.
That should get the Palestinians to the negotiating table.
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Old 5th December 2017, 02:17 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
So this shall be a thread about the efforts of the Trump administration to solve the Israel/Palestine issue and the effects caused by them.
Wrong from the start. I don't think Trump wants to solve the issue. He wants to escalate the issue in a way that best motivates his base.
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Old 5th December 2017, 02:27 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
That should get the Palestinians to the negotiating table.
So we are formally giving up on a two state solution, figure we will endorse apartheid or ethnic cleansing?
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Old 5th December 2017, 02:37 PM   #12
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My guess is that some Fundamentalist nutjob in the administration has suggested that they should just rebuild Solomon's Temple so that Jesus will come back and solve everything...
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Old 5th December 2017, 02:46 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
My guess is that some Fundamentalist nutjob in the administration has suggested that they should just rebuild Solomon's Temple so that Jesus will come back and solve everything...
That's a good bet with this bunch of idiots.
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:04 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Wrong from the start. I don't think Trump wants to solve the issue. He wants to escalate the issue in a way that best motivates his base.
And don't forget that many in his base are eagerly awaiting war in the Middle East to bring on the End Times. That's the primary motivation for the religious right's love of Israel. Actual Jews, they can do without.
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:33 PM   #15
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Trump risks backlash as he prepares to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital
Quote:
Donald Trump appeared on the verge of formally recognising Jerusalem as the “capital of Israel”, in a move that would upend decades of US presidential diplomacy and could trigger unrest across the Middle East.

The suggestion came ahead of a key speech on the issue on Wednesday, as Trump called the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, and other Arab leaders, to tell them that he plans to move the US embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv.
The best plans
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:34 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The three orthodox jews are Jared Kushner, Jason Greenblatt and David Friedman, the coptic christian is Dina Powell. They make up the team Trump assigned to the task of making the "ultimate deal" in the Palestine/Israel issue, and Kushner joked about that himself at the Haim Saban Forum a few days ago.

Now it's rumoured for a few days that Trump will announce to recognize Jerusalem as capital of Israel, which is against conventions the UN and the international community have established since the late 60s. Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. This has been met with warnings and loud protests from almost every capital in the region (except Tel Aviv of course), with hothead Erdogan saying that such a decision would be "a catastrophe for all mankind" and all hell would break loose.

Yesterday Trump had telephone calls with some regional leaders including Netanyahoo and Abbas, and today it is reported that Abbas said that he was told Trump will move the US embassy to Jerusalem and announce it this week. Which is by far not as extreme a measure as recognizing the city as capital.

So this shall be a thread about the efforts of the Trump administration to solve the Israel/Palestine issue and the effects caused by them.
When I did a tour of Jerusalem, the guide took us to a sculpture of a giant menorah and said the building it was in front of was where the government sat.

So it is the capital city in all but name.
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:45 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The three orthodox jews are Jared Kushner, Jason Greenblatt and David Friedman, the coptic christian is Dina Powell. They make up the team Trump assigned to the task of making the "ultimate deal" in the Palestine/Israel issue, and Kushner joked about that himself at the Haim Saban Forum a few days ago.

Now it's rumoured for a few days that Trump will announce to recognize Jerusalem as capital of Israel, which is against conventions the UN and the international community have established since the late 60s. Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. This has been met with warnings and loud protests from almost every capital in the region (except Tel Aviv of course), with hothead Erdogan saying that such a decision would be "a catastrophe for all mankind" and all hell would break loose.

Yesterday Trump had telephone calls with some regional leaders including Netanyahoo and Abbas, and today it is reported that Abbas said that he was told Trump will move the US embassy to Jerusalem and announce it this week. Which is by far not as extreme a measure as recognizing the city as capital.

So this shall be a thread about the efforts of the Trump administration to solve the Israel/Palestine issue and the effects caused by them.
Casual bigotry is not a pleasant look for anyone.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:47 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
And don't forget that many in his base are eagerly awaiting war in the Middle East to bring on the End Times. That's the primary motivation for the religious right's love of Israel. Actual Jews, they can do without.
One wonders when they'll start blaming diaspora Jews for delaying the Rapture, and advocate they be made to go to Israel. Which Netenyahu would not object to at all.
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Old 5th December 2017, 05:49 PM   #19
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Last time I checked, you didn't get people on your side by pissing them off first.
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Old 5th December 2017, 06:58 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Last time I checked, you didn't get people on your side by pissing them off first.
That would certainly explain my lack of sympathy for the Palestinians.

But it doesn't really explain Japan. We interfered in their empire building and slapped them with punishing sanctions. We nuked them--twice!--invaded and occupied, imposed martial law... And somehow this all transformed them into one of America's closest allies.
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Old 6th December 2017, 12:40 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
When I did a tour of Jerusalem, the guide took us to a sculpture of a giant menorah and said the building it was in front of was where the government sat.

So it is the capital city in all but name.
And?

Yes, the Israelis have housed the Knesset and most of the ministries in Jerusalem; but who could stop them? That is quite another matter than that other states recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. And the USA moving their embassy to Jerusalem comes very, very close to a formal recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

(of course, to put a fine line on it, the capital is not necessarily the government's seat).

Walking roughshod over the Jerusalem question, as well as, in case of the UN resolution, the settlements question, makes that Trump has pissed off the Palestinians in two of the three stumbling blocks (the third being the right of return) in previous peace talks.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:02 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That would certainly explain my lack of sympathy for the Palestinians.w... And somehow this all transformed them into one of America's closest allies.
Just like with Russia the right on conquest trumps all. So we need to end all those sanctions over that BS Ukrainian issue. If the Ukranians wanted their own state they needed to properly lay down and accept Russian leadership.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:08 AM   #23
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Why is it even up to Trump to have a preference? Isn't that an Israeli issue?

ETA: I know it's sensitive. I'm not a fan of Israeli overreach. But IMO the Palestinians are not very far along in the process of forming a state. They are fixated on injustices of which there have been many, but it doesn't seem to help them get their act together politically. Israeli Jews knew how to go about forming a nation. I don't think Arabs in the area had much experience of that.

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Old 6th December 2017, 04:30 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Why is it even up to Trump to have a preference? Isn't that an Israeli issue?

ETA: I know it's sensitive. I'm not a fan of Israeli overreach. But IMO the Palestinians are not very far along in the process of forming a state.
Yea it is almost as if the decades it has been since they had things like function infrastructure matter. Kudos on Isreal though they have managed to get to the point where fewer and fewer people can remember the last day that they had power for 24 continuous hours.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...820-story.html

And we can forget about closing the settlements those are here to stay forever, to large a percentage of the Israeli population lives in them.

So we can finally accept that this two state solution is never going to happen and it is political fiction. As I see it the only solutions are ethnic cleansing or formal apartheid.
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Old 6th December 2017, 05:47 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
It's in the early stages, they so far have "listened". Read the linked article.
It notes the plan is decidedly short on detail.

It seems to all boil down to "were are friends, because we are all enemies of Iran, so surely we shall cut a deal".

They won't.
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Old 6th December 2017, 06:40 AM   #26
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If this whole affair goes bad, how long will it be before Trump denies involvement and blames it all on Jared?
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Old 6th December 2017, 07:37 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat View Post
If this whole affair goes bad, how long will it be before Trump denies involvement and blames it all on Jared?
Do we have any devices that can measure things in units of Planck Time?
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Old 6th December 2017, 09:38 AM   #28
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A collection of statements: World unites to condemn Trump over Jerusalem/Al-Quds scandal

Trump statement expected for 1 pm EST today.
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Old 6th December 2017, 10:11 AM   #29
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Old 6th December 2017, 10:42 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So we can finally accept that this two state solution is never going to happen and it is political fiction.
Netenyahu has repeatedly sworn on his mother's grave and evey other Jewish mother's grave that he will never accept a two-state solution, and he was one of those who called for Rabiln to be killed as a race-traitor for doing so. It's a founding principle of Likud and defines the Revisionists (who tried to kill ben Gurion for pretending to accept it).

Quote:
As I see it the only solutions are ethnic cleansing or formal apartheid.
There's an informal apartheid option : just wall the Palestinians into ghettos. They are, after all, aliens in the Land and should be grateful for not being cleansed.

Another intifada would provide a welcome distraction for Netenyahu and Trump in difiicult times for them both. Just saying.
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Old 6th December 2017, 10:43 AM   #31
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Let's not forget that Trump is going to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. That is, the whole of Jerusalem, not "West Jerusalem". The eastern half of Jerusalem is occupied territory. Israel has annexed it as Israeli territory, but that's not recognized by anyone in the world. Moreover, since 1967 Israel has been expanding the city limits of Jerusalem. Israel has been building Jewish settlements (i.e., settlements for Jewish Israelis) in East Jerusalem, and they've been pulling all kind of tricks on the inhabitants of East Jerusalem to drive them out. These are all so-called "facts on the ground" that Israel creates in order to let the Palestinians have even less than the 22% of former Mandate Palestine that the West Bank and Gaza constitute.

When Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, he de facto also recognizes the annexation of East Jerusalem and endorses these policies.
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Old 6th December 2017, 10:47 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Why is it even up to Trump to have a preference? Isn't that an Israeli issue?
The Israelis declared Jerusalem as their capital decades ago. West Jerusalem is their official seat of government. However, East Jerusalem is not officially recognized by the international community as Israeli territory. Trump's preference breaks with international convention, but agrees with the official Israeli position on Jerusalem.
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Old 6th December 2017, 10:55 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Why is it even up to Trump to have a preference? Isn't that an Israeli issue?
The matter is that Trump the USA recognizes, as only country in the world, Jerusalem (AFAICS the whole of Jerusalem) as Israel's capital. That's the issue.

I heard today on the radio that apparently, Congress had already passed a law that the USA should move its embassy to Jerusalem, during the Clinton years. However, the law had a loophole, and Clinton, Bush the Lesser and Obama all dutifully signed a waiver each six month to postpone implementing the law.

The only upside to this, as I can see it, is that never again any Arab nation or the Palestinians will view the USA as a honest peace broker. Of course, it never was.
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Old 6th December 2017, 11:05 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The matter is that Trump the USA recognizes, as only country in the world, Jerusalem (AFAICS the whole of Jerusalem) as Israel's capital. That's the issue.
Not quite the only country. Israel also recognizes Jerusalem as their capital.

Quote:
I heard today on the radio that apparently, Congress had already passed a law that the USA should move its embassy to Jerusalem, during the Clinton years. However, the law had a loophole, and Clinton, Bush the Lesser and Obama all dutifully signed a waiver each six month to postpone implementing the law.
So much for having our cake and eating it too. Trump just wants to eat the cake.

Quote:
The only upside to this, as I can see it, is that never again any Arab nation or the Palestinians will view the USA as a honest peace broker. Of course, it never was.
Nor did they ever view the US that way in the first place. Nor are the Arab nations or the Palestinians honest peace brokers.

But maybe that's an oversimplification. The US goes through a rolling regime change on a 4-8 year cycle. Each previous president has declined to recognize Jerusalem, and waived the legislature's requirement to put the embassy there.

Each President has taken their own approach to brokering peace. I think that it's more reasonable and accurate to say that each successive US president may or may not be seen as an honest peace broker, depending on how they act towards the peace process. It's not really correct to refer to the US as a whole in this context, as if it were a monolithic entity with a consistent long-term executive branch policy. Things vary greatly from president to president.

I know it's fashionable to blame Trump for everything, and prophesy the direst possible consequences for every little thing he does. But it's probably not correct to say that because of this, other stakeholders will never see the US as an honest broker in the peace process. I think that the leaders in the region probably understand that each president must be dealt with on his own terms.

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Old 6th December 2017, 11:06 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
My guess is that some Fundamentalist nutjob in the administration has suggested that they should just rebuild Solomon's Temple so that Jesus will come back and solve everything...
That word implies there was a Temple of Solomon in the first place. There's not a shred of evidence for that; in fact, all archaeological evidence points to Jerusalem only being a small village in "Solomon"'s times.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
One wonders when they'll start blaming diaspora Jews for delaying the Rapture, and advocate they be made to go to Israel. Which Netenyahu would not object to at all.
Would it really be beneficial to Israel or its leaders if five million US Jews would immigrate to Israel? In the 1940s and 1950s, the Mizrahim provided cheap labour that the Zionist founders found themselves too good for (and the Mossad helped a hand with that migration with bombing campaigns in Iraq and Egypt). Ditto the Russian Jews that migrated in the 1990s. But well-educated, good earning US Jews? They'd only be competition.
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Old 6th December 2017, 11:14 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not quite the only country. Israel also recognizes Jerusalem as their capital.
Really? No, they don't recognize Jerusalem as their capital, they designate it. Recognition is for other countries.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nor did they ever view the US that way in the first place. Nor are the Arab nations or the Palestinians honest peace brokers.
You seem to have a problem with simple English words. A peace broker is a third party that helps to get a peace treaty. So obviously, the Palestinians cannot be a broker because they're one of the warring parties. Ditto for Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and a few other Arab states that are still at war with Israel from 1948 on.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But maybe that's an oversimplification. The US goes through a rolling regime change on a 4-8 year cycle. Each previous president has declined to recognize Jerusalem, and waived the legislature's requirement to put the embassy there.

Each President has taken their own approach to brokering peace. I think that it's more reasonable and accurate to say that each successive US president may or may not be seen as an honest peace broker, depending on how they act towards the peace process. It's not really correct to refer to the US as a whole in this context, as if it were a monolithic entity with a consistent long-term executive branch policy. Things vary greatly from president to president.

I know it's fashionable to blame Trump for everything, and prophesy the direst possible consequences for every little thing he does. But it's probably not correct to say that because of this, other stakeholders will never see the US as an honest broker in the peace process. I think that the leaders in the region probably understand that each president must be dealt with on his own terms.
I bet that for many years, moving the embassy back to Tel Aviv (or any other place) will be a precondition for the Arab side to even try the USA as a broker.
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Old 6th December 2017, 11:19 AM   #37
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He did it. He unilaterally recognized Jerusalem as capital of Israel and announced to build a ("magnificent") US embassy there.

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Old 6th December 2017, 12:14 PM   #38
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The new Trump Hotel embassy I am sure will be magnificent, how much is it going to cost?
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Old 6th December 2017, 12:18 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The new Trump Hotel embassy I am sure will be magnificent, how much is it going to cost?
Hopefully less than a wall.

If construction costs get too high, Trump could do what he has often done in the past. Don't pay the sub contractors.
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Old 6th December 2017, 12:33 PM   #40
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At least he explicitly mentioned the fact that there is a border dispute down the middle of Jerusalem and said the decision to recognize Jerusalem does not imply any position on how that dispute is to be resoved - i.e. he accepts the status quo that East Jerusalem is Palestinian.

Still wishy-washy and short on detail about future peace, except that Saudi Arabia looms large.
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