ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 6th December 2017, 09:31 AM   #1
Undesired Walrus
Penultimate Amazing
 
Undesired Walrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,602
Stupid question about Palestine

I recognise that they would not see them as such, but are people in areas of Palestine like Gaza and the West Bank still technically Israelis? Are those areas still technically a part of the recognised nation state of Israel?
__________________
Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945
Undesired Walrus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 09:51 AM   #2
crescent
Graduate Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,828
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
I recognise that they would not see them as such, but are people in areas of Palestine like Gaza and the West Bank still technically Israelis? Are those areas still technically a part of the recognised nation state of Israel?
Jews (Israeli settlers) who live in those areas are Israeli citizens, with all the protections that entails. They get to vote in Israeli elections.

Everyone else who lives in those areas are not Israeli citizens, they don't get to vote in Israeli elections.

The amount of control over one area or another by the Israeli or Palestinian governments in the West Bank is shown in a map here: Maps: The occupation of the West Bank

Gaza is under internal Palestinian Control, there are no Israeli settlements or military installations there, although Israel still maintains full control of coastal and aerial access to Gaza.

Within areas annexed by Israel there are "Arab Israelis", many of whom self identify as Palestinian, mostly Muslim but some Christians as well. Those people are Israeli citizens, I think they make up about 10% of the population.

There remains significant dispute as to what makes up the "recognized state of Israel". Israel has "annexed" some areas such as the Golan Heights and parts of Jerusalem, they consider those to part of Israel proper, but most other nations still dispute that. Syria, for example, still considers the Golan Heights to be part of Syria, albeit under Israeli occupation.

Last edited by crescent; 6th December 2017 at 10:24 AM.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 10:11 AM   #3
crescent
Graduate Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,828
This map is a bit more clear:

Commerce is the vanguard of illegal settlements

I'm just linking for the map, although the article itself is not bad.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 11:07 AM   #4
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,681
Well Trump is about to make yet another of his ill-advised moves by officially recognizing Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel.

This man is a dickwad!! He creates trouble every time he opens his gob.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 11:30 AM   #5
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 63,813
Reckless along with delusions of grandeur is a very bad combination for a POTUS.

Notice he was sniffling again as he read this announcement. I do wonder what drugs he is on.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 11:53 AM   #6
Undesired Walrus
Penultimate Amazing
 
Undesired Walrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,602
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Jews (Israeli settlers) who live in those areas are Israeli citizens, with all the protections that entails. They get to vote in Israeli elections.

Everyone else who lives in those areas are not Israeli citizens, they don't get to vote in Israeli elections.

The amount of control over one area or another by the Israeli or Palestinian governments in the West Bank is shown in a map here: Maps: The occupation of the West Bank

Gaza is under internal Palestinian Control, there are no Israeli settlements or military installations there, although Israel still maintains full control of coastal and aerial access to Gaza.

Within areas annexed by Israel there are "Arab Israelis", many of whom self identify as Palestinian, mostly Muslim but some Christians as well. Those people are Israeli citizens, I think they make up about 10% of the population.

There remains significant dispute as to what makes up the "recognized state of Israel". Israel has "annexed" some areas such as the Golan Heights and parts of Jerusalem, they consider those to part of Israel proper, but most other nations still dispute that. Syria, for example, still considers the Golan Heights to be part of Syria, albeit under Israeli occupation.
Thanks. But if I am a Palestinian in the West Bank or Gaza, what is my nationality proper? As I understand it Palestine isn't recognised as a state by much of the international community so what is my passport, for example?

Israel really defines its citizens by whether they are Jewish? So if my parents are a Palestinian and an Israeli Jew, am I then Israeli?
__________________
Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945
Undesired Walrus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 12:07 PM   #7
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,734
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
I recognise that they would not see them as such, but are people in areas of Palestine like Gaza and the West Bank still technically Israelis? Are those areas still technically a part of the recognised nation state of Israel?
No, they're not Israelis and they've never been. The Palestinians that live in Gaza and the West Bank (and East Jerusalem) are citizens of the State of Palestine, but that's not a universally recognized state (oh, Israel is neither but has wider recognition).

After the failed UN partition plan, in 1948 war broke out between Israel and its neighbours and in 1949 an armistice was signed with the "Green Line" delineating Israel. Pending a final peace resolution, the "Green Line" is the recognized border of Israel. Egypt occupied and militarily administered the Gaza Strip. Jordan annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem; no other country save the UK recognized this annexation.

In 1967, Israel conquered the Gaza Strip as well as the West Bank and East Jerusalem, as well as the Syrian territory of the Golan Heights.

Within Israel proper, i.e., within the Green Line, approx. 80% of the population are Jewish Israelis and 20% are Arab Israelis, the latter mainly in the Galilee, and some very small groups (Bedouins, Circassians), all Israeli citizens. Until the 1970s, the Arab Israelis lived under military administration. They've gradually gotten nearly the same rights as Jewish Israelis, mainly due to various court cases. Every election cycle, routinely the government outlaws Arab political parties who then have to go to court to get on the ballot.

The Golan Heights have been annexed by Israel somewhere in the 1990s; nobody recognizes this annexation. Its inhabitants are Israeli settlers - only Jewish ones, of course.

The West Bank has been divided into three areas A, B, and C. Area "A" is under Palestinian administration, except for security issues, i.e., the Israeli army can barge in at any moment under any pretext. Area "B" is mixed administration, and area "C" is under Israeli administration, i.e., it consists of Israeli settlements for Jewish Israeli settlers. Of course, area "A" is not one contiguous area but consists of four or five disjoint areas that are separated by road blocks and checks and walls.

East Jerusalem is separate from the West Bank and has been annexed by Israel right away in 1967. This annexation is recognized by no country, except now apparently by the USA as it recognizes "Jerusalem" as the Israeli capital, not "West Jerusalem". Its borders have been widely expanded from the British/Jordanian borders and Israel builds large Jewish settlements on its eastern borders. The Palestinian inhabitants of East Jerusalem have "permanent resident" status but Israel pulls all kind of tricks to make their life difficult. For instance, if you're born and raised there, and then decide to go a year abroad to study, you'll find that you won't get back your resident status.

The Gaza Strip only had six small Jewish settlements when Sharon evacuated it in 2002. Gaza is now administered by Hamas, but Israel still controls its airspace, its sea shore and all of its land borders except for the Rafa border crossing with Egypt.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 12:15 PM   #8
crescent
Graduate Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,828
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Thanks. But if I am a Palestinian in the West Bank or Gaza, what is my nationality proper? As I understand it Palestine isn't recognised as a state by much of the international community so what is my passport, for example?

Israel really defines its citizens by whether they are Jewish? So if my parents are a Palestinian and an Israeli Jew, am I then Israeli?
I am not the expert on this, but here is my understanding....

Palestinians are Palestinians, they travel under Palestinian passports. Israel does not recognize Palestine as a nation, but still recognizes Palestine's ability to do some things done by nation states, subject to Israeli oversight. Many other nations do recognize Palestine as an independent nation state.

Israel seems to recognize the right of anyone with Jewish ancestry to become Israeli, if they live in Israel, at least for a time - they call it the Right of Return.

I have no idea if any of the Jewish people who lived in the area in 1947 refused Israeli citizenship, or if there are any Jewish people living in West Bank or Gaza who have not sought out nor want Israeli citizenship.


ETA: I see that ddt posted a really good answer while I was typing. That's good, and more informative than mine. It can be very hard to find actual answers to questions about Israel and Palestine, as many people jump straight into the political/cultural/religious conflict. Hopefully other forum members can help with that, as I am far from the expert on this subject.

Last edited by crescent; 6th December 2017 at 12:20 PM.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 12:15 PM   #9
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,734
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Thanks. But if I am a Palestinian in the West Bank or Gaza, what is my nationality proper? As I understand it Palestine isn't recognised as a state by much of the international community so what is my passport, for example?
There is a Palestinian passport, issuance subject to Israeli oversight.

Until 1988, Jordan gave Jordanian citizenship to all inhabitants of the West Bank.

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Israel really defines its citizens by whether they are Jewish? So if my parents are a Palestinian and an Israeli Jew, am I then Israeli?
When it comes to marriage law, Israel is a theocratic state. I presume your first parent is a Muslim? Or a Christian - never mind, the Rabbis who rule over Jewish marriage would never perform such a marriage. Your parents got married in Cyprus? Or in Berlin?
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 12:59 PM   #10
Undesired Walrus
Penultimate Amazing
 
Undesired Walrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,602
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
There is a Palestinian passport, issuance subject to Israeli oversight.

Until 1988, Jordan gave Jordanian citizenship to all inhabitants of the West Bank.


When it comes to marriage law, Israel is a theocratic state. I presume your first parent is a Muslim? Or a Christian - never mind, the Rabbis who rule over Jewish marriage would never perform such a marriage. Your parents got married in Cyprus? Or in Berlin?
Thank you very much for all these comprehensive answers. It's a lot to understand.

So essentially, boiled down to it, based on all you say, the areas of the West Bank and Gaza are contested territory between Israel and the Palestinian authority? As there are Jewish citizens in the West Bank with all the rights of Israelis, then does the Israeli government consider these areas to belong to Israel? All of the West Bank? What is their end target, to take all of the West Bank?

On the issue of the parents issue, you are saying that a Palestinian Muslim and Israeli Jew are not allowed to marry? There is no recognition of a marriage anywhere? If I were born in Berlin to these parents, would I be an automatic citizen of Israel?
__________________
Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945
Undesired Walrus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 01:04 PM   #11
Undesired Walrus
Penultimate Amazing
 
Undesired Walrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,602
Also, why are there Palestinian refugee camps even today? Am I right in thinking that the Palestinians are there because they were booted out of Israel back in the 40s or whatever? Are they still there because there is nowhere for them to go?
__________________
Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945
Undesired Walrus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 01:18 PM   #12
crescent
Graduate Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,828
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
So essentially, boiled down to it, based on all you say, the areas of the West Bank and Gaza are contested territory between Israel and the Palestinian authority? As there are Jewish citizens in the West Bank with all the rights of Israelis, then does the Israeli government consider these areas to belong to Israel? All of the West Bank? What is their end target, to take all of the West Bank?
I don't know what end result the Israelis are looking for. I get the impression that there is no unified "Target". Many Israelis object to the settlements, many don't care, and many are very supportive of expanding the settlements. Some Israelis want to pull back from most of the West Bank, other Israelis want to expel the Palestinians from West Bank and annex the whole thing.

In the absence of a clear political or cultural mandate, the Israelis just keep muddling along. Existing settlements, especially those in or near Jerusalem or Hebron keep growing, but there is less establishment of new settlements than there used to be. Many of the settlers are Jewish immigrants, especially from the old USSR, they live there in part due to financial incentives and nationalism

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Also, why are there Palestinian refugee camps even today? Am I right in thinking that the Palestinians are there because they were booted out of Israel back in the 40s or whatever? Are they still there because there is nowhere for them to go?
I don't know about the camps in Palestine itself, but many of the surrounding nations never allowed the Palestinian refugees citizenship or property rights. They kind of forced the Palestinians to behave as if leaving Palestine were a temporary thing. Israel would not let them return to Palestine, not even West Bank or Gaza, but the nations that hosted the camps would not allow them to live as citizens of those host nations.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 01:30 PM   #13
Undesired Walrus
Penultimate Amazing
 
Undesired Walrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,602
Wouldn't the simplest thing just be to forget about dividing the country and make it one secular nation state where Palestinians and Israelis have the same rights? That would seem the most rational solution to me. Give it some funky name that doesn't favour either.
__________________
Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945
Undesired Walrus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 01:34 PM   #14
mikado
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,564
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Wouldn't the simplest thing just be to forget about dividing the country and make it one secular nation state where Palestinians and Israelis have the same rights? That would seem the most rational solution to me. Give it some funky name that doesn't favour either.
Now you're being sensible, that will never happen.....sadly
__________________
member formally known as Renmarkable.
mikado is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 01:37 PM   #15
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23,496
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Wouldn't the simplest thing just be to forget about dividing the country and make it one secular nation state where Palestinians and Israelis have the same rights? That would seem the most rational solution to me. Give it some funky name that doesn't favour either.
Israel is already a secular nation where Jews and Palestinians (both Israelis) have the same rights. The only places Palestinians don't have the same rights as Jews is where by intransigence, violence, and an enabling international community they have carved out Palestinian ghettos in which they reject Israeli sovereignty. To the extent that Israel tolerates those ghettos, rather than imposing its sovereignty, the Palestinians living there necessarily do not enjoy the same rights as peaceful Israeli citizens living outside the ghettos.

Aside from the name of the country, your solution is what we have already today. The problem is that Palestinians don't want to share a secular state with equal rights for Jews. The simplest solution would be for Palestinians to get over it.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 01:58 PM   #16
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,734
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
On the issue of the parents issue, you are saying that a Palestinian Muslim and Israeli Jew are not allowed to marry? There is no recognition of a marriage anywhere? If I were born in Berlin to these parents, would I be an automatic citizen of Israel?
They can't get married in Israel. There is no secular marriage, only religious marriage that is recognized by the state. So you'll have to find a Rabbi, an Imam or a Priest who will perform that marriage. Good luck with that. Oh, and the Jewish marriage is controlled by the Orthodox Chief Rabbinate, so also many atheist or liberallly-religious Jews are unhappy with it and go to Cyprus to get married. That's a bone that Ben Gurion threw the religious to get them on board with founding Israel.

And yes, foreign marriages are recognized.

I don't know if in your hypothetical case, the child would be an automatic citizen, but they would be entitled to Israeli citizenship. The Law of Return entitles anyone to citizenship who was classed a Jew or half-Jew under the Nazi Nuremberg Laws. That's not a Godwin, that is the actual rationale.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

Last edited by ddt; 6th December 2017 at 02:41 PM.
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 02:01 PM   #17
Undesired Walrus
Penultimate Amazing
 
Undesired Walrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,602
Prestige: I see what you're saying, but I'm a bit flummoxed as to why the default position is that it is the State of Israel that claims dominion over these lands. By what right?

Also, you said that Israel is a secular state. I can only go on what others here say as they know better, but it appears to be the case that an Arab and a Jew cannot get married, and the state does not provide for secular weddings to allow this. That does not sound secular.
__________________
Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

Last edited by Undesired Walrus; 6th December 2017 at 02:04 PM.
Undesired Walrus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 02:11 PM   #18
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,734
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Also, why are there Palestinian refugee camps even today? Am I right in thinking that the Palestinians are there because they were booted out of Israel back in the 40s or whatever? Are they still there because there is nowhere for them to go?
Except for Jordan, which offered the Palestinians citizenship, the surrounding Arab nations treat them as trash, and certainly don't offer them citizenship. Also, the current refugees are the children or grandchildren of those who fled in 1948 and later in 1967, and they're also granted refugee status by the UN.

And yes, the Palestinians were booted out.
Some fled for the atrocities of the approaching Israeli forces, such as the Deir Yassin massacre, a joint operation of the two terrorist groups Irgun, led by Menachem Begin, and Lehi alias the Stern Gang, led by Yitzhak Shamir - yes, Israel had two terrorists as PM. Others were ethnically cleansed, such as the inhabitants of Lydda and Ramle, who were force-marched over the green line, under the direction of Yitzhak Rabin. Oh ****, another PM who was a war criminal.

However, it's part of the Israeli national myth that the Palestinians went all of their free will. It's also part of the Israeli national myth that the neighbouring Arab states made radio broadcasts that the Palestinians should leave their towns. Patently false, as "New Historians" in the 1980s showed.

Oh, and those hundreds of empty Palestinian villages and towns have been thoroughly razed to the ground.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

Last edited by ddt; 6th December 2017 at 02:30 PM.
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 02:20 PM   #19
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23,496
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Prestige: I see what you're saying, but I'm a bit flummoxed as to why the default position is that it is the State of Israel that claims dominion over these lands. By what right?

Also, you said that Israel is a secular state. I can only go on what others here say as they know better, but it appears to be the case that an Arab and a Jew cannot get married, and the state does not provide for secular weddings to allow this. That does not sound secular.
Marriage is weird. I think a state can be broadly secular, and still make concessions to the religious sensibilities of its citizens.

As for the default position, you may want to read up on the history of the region and the origin of Israel as a state. Basically the entire region was part of the British Empire until the 20th century. The British, as sovereigns there, ultimately granted independence to the various territories. In a nutshell: it was Britain's land and they could do with it what they wanted. All of Arabia was already an Arabian homeland. It's not like Arabs scattered around the world were lacking a place in the Middle East they could call their own.

The only people who were inconvenienced by this arrangement were Arabs living in Palestine, who a) didn't want to live in Jewish homeland, and b) didn't want to move over the border.

Last edited by theprestige; 6th December 2017 at 02:27 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 02:23 PM   #20
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,957
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It's also part of the Israeli national myth that the neighbouring Arab states made radio broadcasts that the Palestinians should leave their towns. Patently false, as "New Historians" in the 1980s showed.
Is this the case? I can't say Israeli 20th century history is an area I have really been able to wrap my head around, but the reading I have done (which admittedly has been written by friends of Israel, though not utter jingoists) gave the impression that there were broadcasts that did play a role, but that violence and the generally coercive/unfriendly environment Palestinians now found themselves in were the ultimate reasons for why Palestinians left. That is, that it was not exactly forcible, but not exactly voluntary either.
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 02:28 PM   #21
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,734
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Wouldn't the simplest thing just be to forget about dividing the country and make it one secular nation state where Palestinians and Israelis have the same rights? That would seem the most rational solution to me. Give it some funky name that doesn't favour either.
Why don't you first try to get everlasting peace and a unified country in that island to the west of yours?
Ireland for those who don't know UW's locale

I faintly remember you had a psychopathic politician who actually succeeded quite a long way in that. One of his best achievements actually. After his national career, he became the special envoy for the Quartet (UN / USA / EU / Russia) to try to get peace in the Israel/Palestine question. How did he succeed?

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Prestige: I see what you're saying, but I'm a bit flummoxed as to why the default position is that it is the State of Israel that claims dominion over these lands. By what right?
Israel always touts that they accepted the 1947 UN partition plan, and the Arabs didn't. However, the Green Line which is the de facto recognized border of Israel gives them quite a bit more of the former Mandate Palestine than the partition plan. They've never formally claimed the West Bank, nor Gaza.

It is not the case that the Palestinians have carved out ghettos there. The Israelis have carved up the place in various bantustans that are separated by the wall, by road blocks and check points. Getting from one town to the next in the West Bank can be a tedious, time consuming and humiliating affair if you're Palestinian. Of course, the Jewish settlers in the settlements have no such problems and they can use special roads that are exclusively open for them.

As I said before, Israel has ultimate control over both West Bank and Gaza. And viewed as such, Israel is an apartheid state.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 02:33 PM   #22
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,734
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Is this the case? I can't say Israeli 20th century history is an area I have really been able to wrap my head around, but the reading I have done (which admittedly has been written by friends of Israel, though not utter jingoists) gave the impression that there were broadcasts that did play a role,
IIRC, Benny Morris found half a dozen such broadcasts that only were aimed at a single town in the front line. But it's part of the national myth that this was massive.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
but that violence and the generally coercive/unfriendly environment Palestinians now found themselves in were the ultimate reasons for why Palestinians left. That is, that it was not exactly forcible, but not exactly voluntary either.
You missed the part about Lydda and Ramle? The expulsion of those two cities accounted for 10% of the total refugees.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 02:40 PM   #23
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,734
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Marriage is weird. I think a state can be broadly secular, and still make concessions to the religious sensibilities of its citizens.

As for the default position, you may want to read up on the history of the region and the origin of Israel as a state. Basically the entire region was part of the British Empire until the 20th century. The British, as sovereigns there, ultimately granted independence to the various territories. In a nutshell: it was Britain's land and they could do with it what they wanted. All of Arabia was already an Arabian homeland. It's not like Arabs scattered around the world were lacking a place in the Middle East they could call their own.

The only people who were inconvenienced by this arrangement were Arabs living in Palestine, who a) didn't want to live in Jewish homeland, and b) didn't want to move over the border.
The British had a mandate from the League of Nations, which went over to a UN mandate, so no, the British could not do as they saw fit.

And they couldn't even control the situation, despite having more military in Palestine than in the whole of India, what with zionist terrorists like Begin's Irgun who blew up the British HQ of the King David Hotel, and Shamir's Stern Gang who murdered Lord Moyne, the British High Commissioner in Cairo and later UN envoy Bernadotte.

But really, what it boils down to is that a huge spate of recent immigrants displaced those who had lived there for centuries. Now, I understand that Jews wanted a state of their own after the Holocaust. But that was not the Palestinians' doing. They should have founded a Jewish state in Pomerania or Silesia, after all, it was the Germans who perpetrated the Holocaust.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 02:42 PM   #24
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,957
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
IIRC, Benny Morris found half a dozen such broadcasts that only were aimed at a single town in the front line. But it's part of the national myth that this was massive.
OK, that makes sense.

Quote:
You missed the part about Lydda and Ramle? The expulsion of those two cities accounted for 10% of the total refugees.
No, I stated it sloppily, I didn't mean that physical violence was nonexistent or insignificant. My point was rather that even though one might say that a majority (I think?) left "voluntarily", it wasn't really voluntary as much as due to massive social pressure and the apparent threat of violence in the immediate future.
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 02:46 PM   #25
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,957
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The British had a mandate from the League of Nations, which went over to a UN mandate, so no, the British could not do as they saw fit.
Moreover, I believe by FAR the most widely supported option by the people living there was for a "pan-Arabic" "Greater Syria".
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 02:50 PM   #26
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,957
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Basically the entire region was part of the British Empire until the 20th century.
I... think the one who needs to read up on history here is you. It was part of the Ottoman Empire who annexed it from the Mamluks and the Akkoyonlu in the 16th century. Those parts came under British and French mandates in, 1920, I believe?
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 03:02 PM   #27
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23,496
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
I... think the one who needs to read up on history here is you. It was part of the Ottoman Empire who annexed it from the Mamluks and the Akkoyonlu in the 16th century. Those parts came under British and French mandates in, 1920, I believe?
Sounds good to me. Let's go with what you said.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 03:15 PM   #28
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,734
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
So essentially, boiled down to it, based on all you say, the areas of the West Bank and Gaza are contested territory between Israel and the Palestinian authority? As there are Jewish citizens in the West Bank with all the rights of Israelis, then does the Israeli government consider these areas to belong to Israel? All of the West Bank? What is their end target, to take all of the West Bank?
There is no unified Israeli policy goal, and the peace question is the overriding question in Israeli politics.

If you look back to the 1920s, the Zionist Labour Movement (the precursor of the nowadays Labour party) wanted to claim the whole of Mandate Palestine, extended to the north in Lebanon up to the Litani river - that's the area that Israel controlled in the 1980s and 1990s in the fallout of the Lebanese civil war until Hezbollah made the price too high to keep controlling it. Nowadays, Labour would be most inclined to compromise with the Palestinians for peace. But they're not a shadow of their former self under Ben Gurion or Golda Meir, when they were by far away the largest party and controlled government.

The religiously-inclined point to the Bible verse where God promised Abraham all the territory from the Nile to the Euphrates.

Likud, the party founded by the aforementioned terrorists Begin and Shamir, and currently led by Netanyahu, is quite clear in its program of principles. They advocate annexing the West Bank, which they call "Judea and Samaria".

However, even if the main party in power was willing to compromise they have to face internal opposition in the government. Both main parties need smaller coalition parties to top up a majority, and those are typically religious nutbars who are not willing to compromise. Oh, and Likud is allied with Lieberman who even advocates expulsion of Arab Israelis, i.e., of Israeli citizens.

And a major roadblock against peace are the settlements, i.e., the "facts on the ground". There are large settlement blocks in the West Bank that provide cheap housing to Israelis. No Israeli politician will be able to sell that those settlements will be handed over to the Palestinians. That is why building yet another settlement is such a crucial issue; each settlement means yet another part of the West Bank that will not be ceded to the Palestinian state.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 09:55 PM   #29
Cleon
King of the Pod People
 
Cleon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,151
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Wouldn't the simplest thing just be to forget about dividing the country and make it one secular nation state where Palestinians and Israelis have the same rights? That would seem the most rational solution to me. Give it some funky name that doesn't favour either.
When I suggest that I'm called an anti-Semite.
__________________
"People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich
Cleon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th December 2017, 10:22 PM   #30
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,957
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
When I suggest that I'm called an anti-Semite.
Well duh. That would be denying Israelis their national identity, which is basically genocide, unlike denying Palestinians their national identity, which is totally cool.
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 01:26 AM   #31
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,481
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Marriage is weird. I think a state can be broadly secular, and still make concessions to the religious sensibilities of its citizens.

As for the default position, you may want to read up on the history of the region and the origin of Israel as a state. Basically the entire region was part of the British Empire until the 20th century. The British, as sovereigns there, ultimately granted independence to the various territories. In a nutshell: it was Britain's land and they could do with it what they wanted.
I want to challenge these assertions, as my reading of that history has produced conclusions entirely different from yours, in terms of simple facts.

The region was not part of the British Empire until the 20th century, but part of the Ottoman Empire from the sixteenth century until 1917, when it was occupied by Britain during WW1. So it came under U.K. control only towards the end of the second decade of the 20th century.

You state that it was Britain's land that the Empire could do with as it pleased? I find otherwise. Britain governed the land under a League of Nations Mandate, defined thus:
... the Mandate is granted to Britain "for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations". That article, which concerns entrusting "tutelage" of colonies formerly under German and Turkish sovereignty to "advanced nations" with specific regard to "[c]ommunities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire" that they "have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone."
Can you give me a link to your dissenting source of information that tells you that the UK was unlimited suzerain of the entire area prior to the twentieth century?
Craig B is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 05:38 AM   #32
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 40,338
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Wouldn't the simplest thing just be to forget about dividing the country and make it one secular nation state where Palestinians and Israelis have the same rights? That would seem the most rational solution to me. Give it some funky name that doesn't favour either.
Not going to happen, Israel has way to much focused on being an jewish ethno religious nationalist state. How would you reconcile the right of return with being a secular nation?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 05:40 AM   #33
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 40,338
Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Prestige: I see what you're saying, but I'm a bit flummoxed as to why the default position is that it is the State of Israel that claims dominion over these lands. By what right?
.
The most traditional one, force of arms.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 05:42 AM   #34
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 40,338
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Marriage is weird. I think a state can be broadly secular, and still make concessions to the religious sensibilities of its citizens.

As for the default position, you may want to read up on the history of the region and the origin of Israel as a state. Basically the entire region was part of the British Empire until the 20th century. The British, as sovereigns there, ultimately granted independence to the various territories. In a nutshell: it was Britain's land and they could do with it what they wanted. All of Arabia was already an Arabian homeland. It's not like Arabs scattered around the world were lacking a place in the Middle East they could call their own.

The only people who were inconvenienced by this arrangement were Arabs living in Palestine, who a) didn't want to live in Jewish homeland, and b) didn't want to move over the border.
And the jews down't want them to have any real political voice, because how can it be a jewish homeland if muslims have any significant political power?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 06:10 AM   #35
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,411
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sounds good to me. Let's go with what you said.
...and...?
Why did you not start going? E.g. by retracting in full your uninformed post, including, explicitly, all the stupid conclusions you drew from your bizarrely false premises?
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 06:31 AM   #36
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 15,411
Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Well duh. That would be denying Israelis their national identity, which is basically genocide, unlike denying Palestinians their national identity, which is totally cool.
A Palestinian national identity arose only fairly recently as a result of the way borders were forcibly drawn after WWs 1+2. It is essentially negatively defined as those Arabs caught in limbo between Israel on one side, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt on the other. With Jordan playing a low-key, special role. In fact, it has long been said by some sypathetic to Israel's territorial claims that a recognized Palestinian state already exists, and its name is Jordan.

Prior to the establishment of Israel and the invention of Jordan, Iraq etc, indeed the whole region was merely called "Palestine" as a historic geographic term referencing an ancient Roman province named after a Kanaanite tribe, the Philistines, if memory serves (I am slightly unsure about the "Kanaanite" designation), but it was inhabited mostly by Arabs identifying as Arabs and muslims. Hence the locally prefered option in the early and mid 20th century to create a greater Syria as an Arab state, which could have included modern Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and parts of Iraq. Had an Israel been wedged into such a greater Syria, there would have been a place for displaced Palestinians to go and have rights as full citizens of a recognized, strong state.

Israel, in contrast, has indeed had a rather clear identity, both ethnically and territorially, all the time since at least the Maccabean time.

The problem is that we can't roll back time and implement better solutions that might have been feasible before lots of **** hit multiple fans. We have to deal with a Palestinian identity, even though that has emerged rather recently and we' d perhaps be collectively better of if we could all forget about it.
__________________
Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)
Oystein is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 06:37 AM   #37
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,258
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
A Palestinian national identity arose only fairly recently as a result of the way borders were forcibly drawn after WWs 1+2. It is essentially negatively defined as those Arabs caught in limbo between Israel on one side, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt on the other. With Jordan playing a low-key, special role. In fact, it has long been said by some sypathetic to Israel's territorial claims that a recognized Palestinian state already exists, and its name is Jordan.

Prior to the establishment of Israel and the invention of Jordan, Iraq etc, indeed the whole region was merely called "Palestine" as a historic geographic term referencing an ancient Roman province named after a Kanaanite tribe, the Philistines, if memory serves (I am slightly unsure about the "Kanaanite" designation), but it was inhabited mostly by Arabs identifying as Arabs and muslims. Hence the locally prefered option in the early and mid 20th century to create a greater Syria as an Arab state, which could have included modern Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and parts of Iraq. Had an Israel been wedged into such a greater Syria, there would have been a place for displaced Palestinians to go and have rights as full citizens of a recognized, strong state.

Israel, in contrast, has indeed had a rather clear identity, both ethnically and territorially, all the time since at least the Maccabean time.

The problem is that we can't roll back time and implement better solutions that might have been feasible before lots of **** hit multiple fans. We have to deal with a Palestinian identity, even though that has emerged rather recently and we' d perhaps be collectively better of if we could all forget about it.
What do you think is the best plan today?

I guess a better question is what is the goal.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 7th December 2017 at 06:45 AM.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 06:53 AM   #38
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,734
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Prior to the establishment of Israel and the invention of Jordan, Iraq etc, indeed the whole region was merely called "Palestine" as a historic geographic term referencing an ancient Roman province named after a Kanaanite tribe, the Philistines, if memory serves (I am slightly unsure about the "Kanaanite" designation),
The Philistines were one of the "Sea Peoples", who invaded the area and then settled on the coast, not indigenous Kanaanites.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
but it was inhabited mostly by Arabs identifying as Arabs and muslims.
"Arabs" only in a cultural sense. Genetically, Palestinians are the descendants of the local population, so of Jews and Samarians, who over the centuries converted to Christianity and/or Islam.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Israel, in contrast, has indeed had a rather clear identity, both ethnically and territorially, all the time since at least the Maccabean time.
Not really. There were big cultural differences between the three strands of diaspora Jews - Ashkenazim who lived from the Rhineland to Western Russia, and spoke Yiddish, Sephardim who lived in Southern Europe and spoke Ladino, and the Mizrahim who lived in the Arab world from Morocco to Iraq. Hebrew was a dead language that was only used in liturgy. The ZIonist movement has managed to revive Hebrew as a living and primary language of all three and managed to unify them under a national myth of the founding of the state of Israel.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 07:13 AM   #39
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,957
In addition to ddt's astute comments, the Ottomans definitely recognized Palestine as distinct, not least due to Jerusalem. They actually did their best to NOT have Jews move there.

Palestinian national identity arose as part of the anti-Ottoman movements and certainly existed within a pan-Arabic movement, with most favouring a Greater Syria occupying most of Mashriq. It's very Orientalist to just see them as a foil to the Israeli nationalist movements, which are absolutely nothing like ancient and quite diverse. The Palestinians too desired self-determination, they opposed the British probably as much as or more than the settlers, etc. Although (to Amin al-Hosseini's chagrin) nothing like a remotely unified Palestinian movement ever materialized, that doesn't mean they, as a people, should be denied their unique identity.
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th December 2017, 07:20 AM   #40
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11,957
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Not really. There were big cultural differences between the three strands of diaspora Jews - Ashkenazim who lived from the Rhineland to Western Russia, and spoke Yiddish, Sephardim who lived in Southern Europe and spoke Ladino, and the Mizrahim who lived in the Arab world from Morocco to Iraq. Hebrew was a dead language that was only used in liturgy. The ZIonist movement has managed to revive Hebrew as a living and primary language of all three and managed to unify them under a national myth of the founding of the state of Israel.
As you imply it is really quite ridiculous to suggest a common Jewish-Israeli _national_ character existing continuously from ancient times to the 20th century. For comparison one would be on way better footing to assert the existence of a continuous Iranian national character from Cyrus to the present day, but even that would be questionable to ridiculous, as that overarching view of continuity from the Achaemenids through the Sassanians and Islamic times only really emerged with the Mongol rulers of the Ilkhanate who saw it fit to paint Chingiis Khan as the second coming of Cyrus the Great. And of course the modern movement began in earnest only in the 19th century!

So... a continuous Israeli identity? Uh, nope.
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy

Last edited by TubbaBlubba; 7th December 2017 at 07:22 AM.
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:58 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.