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Tags Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , US-Israel relations

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Old 8th December 2017, 10:25 AM   #41
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Now for the serious answer: we don't know, Trump has not said that AFAIK. He hasn't denied it either, and frankly, with him everything is possible. Last night, Dutch Labour leader Lodewijk Asscher (a Jew) said that the move is like a "bull raging through a China shop where half of the cups and saucers are broken to begin with".
Why is it important that Lodewijk Asscher is Jewish?

I don't disagree with the characterization of Trump, but that's a separate issue.

I just did a bit of research, and it turns out the US consulate in Jerusalem is just barely on the Eastern side of the Green Line, and is there deliberately so it can serve the Palestinian population.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You're putting that as if the USA has ever put pressure on Israel. Quod non.
Don't be silly, of course the US pressures Israel. All diplomacy is pressure of some sort.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The USA has the simplest and most effective pressure lever ever: money. American aid to Israel is $1bn/year civilian and $2bn/year military. Has the USA ever threatened to cut that aid? No. Every time the IDF bulldozes a Palestinian house, because a cousin twice removed committed a terrorist action against Israel, that bulldozing is sponsored by the USA.
Show me evidence that "a cousin twice removed" is the standard for bulldozing a home.
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Old 8th December 2017, 12:45 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What then is the relevance of that alleged fact, as far as settlements in the occupied areas are concerned? I say it makes no difference at all.
Alleged fact? Really?

One way it’s important is to highlight the hypocrisy of people who only see a problem with Israel taking land by force and who may not condemn other nations such as Egypt and Jordan who have also taken land by force and even refer to it as an “alleged fact”. You know, like they’re in denial that someone acting against Israel may have themselves done something wrong.

Another way it’s important is to remind you that previous to bits of it being illegally seized by Jordan and Egypt, these parts were a part of an integral whole, which was the British Mandate for Palestine, and that these lines which separate the West Bank and Gaza from the whole were armistice lines from the Israeli war of independence (often times called the “Nakba”) and do not comprise any official national border.

Interestingly, Palestinians also share this view, seeing the West Bank, Gaza, and everything in between (Israel) as part of an integral whole they call “Palestine”.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Do you say that Syria was in illegal occupation of Golan prior to 1967?
I think you need to re-read all of my previous statements and see if you can find me saying that. If you cannot find me saying that I think you should then be required to write “I will stop making up stupid straw-men” one hundred times on a chalkboard. Perhaps this would break you if this dishonest and time wasting debate tactic.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
If not, do you condemn the subsequent Zionist clearance and settlement, and Israeli annexation, of that region, which we have discussed in the past?
I think if Syria wants it back they should be required to come to the table and make peace with Israel as a condition of getting it back, just like Egypt did with Israel for the Sinai Peninsula.

Do you think Israel should be required to make peace with enemies who refuse to make peace with Israel? If so, how do you justify this double standard?
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Old 8th December 2017, 01:08 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think if Syria wants it back they should be required to come to the table and make peace with Israel as a condition of getting it back, just like Egypt did with Israel for the Sinai Peninsula.

Do you think Israel should be required to make peace with enemies who refuse to make peace with Israel? If so, how do you justify this double standard?
Then it makes no difference that allegedly Jordan and Egypt were in illegal occupation of land. Syria was in unchallenged legal ownership, yet was treated like the others. So your reference to legality was mischievous. Golan has been cleared of its previous population, resettled and annexed. That displaced population was committing no crime. My prediction is that Jerusalem will be cleansed. In that case the annexation came first.
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Old 8th December 2017, 01:24 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Then it makes no difference that allegedly Jordan and Egypt were in illegal occupation of land. Syria was in unchallenged legal ownership, yet was treated like the others. So your reference to legality was mischievous. Golan has been cleared of its previous population, resettled and annexed. That displaced population was committing no crime. My prediction is that Jerusalem will be cleansed. In that case the annexation came first.
You need to read the whole post, Craig.

Israel and Syria are still at war because Syria refuses to recognize Israel, unlike Jordan and Egypt who have both made Peace. When Egypt made peace, they got the Sinai Peninsula back.
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Old 8th December 2017, 05:20 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That seems a bad reason. The Knesset is the Israeli equivalent of the US Congress. Ambassadors and their deputies don't primarily talk with MPs, but with government ministers.
And if Israel was like the US, and not a parliamentary democracy, you might have a point.
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Old 9th December 2017, 11:17 AM   #46
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No embassy has been moved.

I don't expect it to happen for a while.

There is already a US Consulate in Jerusalem and funny thing is it sits right smack on the 1949 Armistice Line. The State Department could easily simply declare the Consulate has turned into an embassy.

But they won't be doing that any time soon, unless they are truly insane.
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Old 14th December 2017, 02:18 PM   #47
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Did anybody happen to notice that yesterday the entirety of the OIC unanimously declared that it no longer recognizes the US as the impartial facilitator of the Israel/Palestine peace process, and is currently seeking another nation to fulfil that role?
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Old 14th December 2017, 02:28 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Did anybody happen to notice that yesterday the entirety of the OIC unanimously declared that it no longer recognizes the US as the impartial facilitator of the Israel/Palestine peace process, and is currently seeking another nation to fulfil that role?
About time.
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Old 14th December 2017, 03:26 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You need to read the whole post, Craig.

Israel and Syria are still at war because Syria refuses to recognize Israel, unlike Jordan and Egypt who have both made Peace. When Egypt made peace, they got the Sinai Peninsula back.
I don't think Sinai is in the Biblical Promised land, so the Jewish and Christian Zionists are reluctant to settle it, and prepared to relinquish it. But in no circumstances will they give up Golan or E Jerusalem.
After God brought the ten plagues on the Egyptians, they allowed the Israelites to leave the land of Egypt and to begin their journey to the "promised land." ... After leaving Mt. Sinai, the Israelites headed toward the promised land.
https://truthfortheworld.org/bcc/cou...cc_ibs_l8.html
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Old 18th December 2017, 06:09 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Security for the new site must be off the scale, nevermind finding a location.
There is a lot of land "available", in eastern Jerusalem. Just evict the locals. Then start negotiating peace with... uhh, those locals.
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Old 18th December 2017, 06:19 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Is the embassy going to be built in the parts of Jerusalem that are disputed?
No.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I don’t see that any pressure is being applied to the Palestinian side
You may not have noticed the roadblocks, the huge military wall, the nightly curfews, the expropriation of lands, imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians, the trade and transportation restrictions both for imports and exports, the difficulty of Palestinians abroad getting a visa to visit Palestinian lands, the fear of locals to travel abroad if they might not be allowed to return back home.

How much more pressure do you want on Palestinians?


Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
How does it say that?
By acknowledging the legitimacy of land grabbed by military force.
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Old 18th December 2017, 06:22 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Don't be silly, of course the US pressures Israel.
Look at Cuba, and you know what it means when USA wants to pressure a country.

No, USA is not pressuring Israel. It may softly express some very humble suggestions from time to time, without demanding that any suggestions are listened to.
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Old 18th December 2017, 06:24 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I don't think Sinai is in the Biblical Promised land
What about the Greater Israel promised to Abraham? It reached from... here to there, lots of area.
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Old 18th December 2017, 07:18 PM   #54
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Quick question - when was the last time the United States was the sole dissenting vote on a Security Council resolution?
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Old 18th December 2017, 11:08 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Quick question - when was the last time the United States was the sole dissenting vote on a Security Council resolution?
I don't know but there have been many times when the US has been the sole dissenting voice w.r.t. Israel over the decades.


edited to add:

Here is a list and the last time the US exercised it veto in the Security Council was 2011 - subject "Middle East situation, including the Palestinian question"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...il_resolutions

Since then it's been Russia and/or China doing the vetoing...

Last edited by The Don; 18th December 2017 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 19th December 2017, 09:07 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
You may not have noticed the roadblocks, the huge military wall, the nightly curfews, the expropriation of lands, imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians, the trade and transportation restrictions both for imports and exports, the difficulty of Palestinians abroad getting a visa to visit Palestinian lands, the fear of locals to travel abroad if they might not be allowed to return back home.

How much more pressure do you want on Palestinians?
"The Beatings will continue until Morale Improves" is highly effective HR policy so why not foreign policy?
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Old 19th December 2017, 09:09 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Quick question - when was the last time the United States was the sole dissenting vote on a Security Council resolution?
Not just a dissenting voice - a veto. This must be the show of supremacy the OP was talking about.
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Old 20th December 2017, 05:20 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not just a dissenting voice - a veto. This must be the show of supremacy the OP was talking about.
The Security Council, whose role affects the whole UN more broadly, is designed on supremacy of the winning powers of WWII. It seemed like a good design back then. Nowadays USA feels frustrated that it is not the sole supreme country, alas, a handful of lesser powers have the same veto rights.

Last edited by JJM 777; 20th December 2017 at 05:22 AM.
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Old 20th December 2017, 08:19 AM   #59
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More aggressive words from the US regarding Jerusalem:

Quote:
The US says it "will be taking names" during a UN General Assembly vote on a resolution criticising its recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

Permanent representative Nikki Haley warned member states that President Donald Trump had asked her to report on "who voted against us" on Thursday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42424666

Quote:
The other 14 members of the Security Council voted in favour of the draft, but Ms Haley described it as an "insult" and warned that "it won't be forgotten".
Are the US attempting to alienate all their allies so that they can sit in the corner, complain about how mean the other kids are and whine that they have no friends ?
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Old 20th December 2017, 11:14 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Are the US attempting to alienate all their allies so that they can sit in the corner, complain about how mean the other kids are and whine that they have no friends ?
They just take their cue from our president:

"The media/liberals/FBI/anyone the wrong color/too poor/who disagrees with me/who doesn't worship the smell of my flatulence is out to get me!"
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Old 20th December 2017, 11:44 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
The Security Council, whose role affects the whole UN more broadly,
More like, the UNSC is the part of the UN that actually has any meaningful effect at all.
Quote:
is designed on supremacy of the winning powers of WWII. It seemed like a good design back then.
It was a good design then, and it's still a good design today.

Quote:
Nowadays USA feels frustrated that it is not the sole supreme country, alas, a handful of lesser powers have the same veto rights.
Somehow I doubt that's what's going on here.
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Old 21st December 2017, 06:58 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
More like, the UNSC is the part of the UN that actually has any meaningful effect at all.

It was a good design then, and it's still a good design today.


Somehow I doubt that's what's going on here.
Why is it a good design now?
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Old 21st December 2017, 11:37 AM   #63
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When was the last time the UN voted to condemn something the US did?
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Old 21st December 2017, 11:49 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
When was the last time the UN voted to condemn something the US did?
When was the last time the UN voted to do anything meaningful, about any serious issue that hadn't already been decided by the UNSC?
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Old 21st December 2017, 12:12 PM   #65
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The UNSC is literally part of the UN.
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Old 21st December 2017, 12:29 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The UNSC is literally part of the UN.
I guess? Its proceedings are pretty distinct from the General Assembly, which is what I was referring to. UNSC votes are independent of UN GA votes. And unlike GA votes, SC votes actually matter.
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Old 21st December 2017, 12:35 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess? Its proceedings are pretty distinct from the General Assembly, which is what I was referring to. UNSC votes are independent of UN GA votes. And unlike GA votes, SC votes actually matter.
Why would you say their votes matter? They can't compel anything.
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Old 21st December 2017, 12:44 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
When was the last time the UN voted to do anything meaningful, about any serious issue that hadn't already been decided by the UNSC?
Shockingly, that doesn't appear to answer the question I asked.
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Old 21st December 2017, 12:49 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why would you say their votes matter? They can't compel anything.
What benefit to me, from answering this question?

But I was being relaxed in my terminology. Of course GA votes matter a lot to someone--otherwise there wouldn't be so many of them. It would be more accurate to say that SC votes matter a lot more than GA votes.
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Old 21st December 2017, 12:52 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Shockingly, that doesn't appear to answer the question I asked.
It does kind of put it in perspective, though.

Let me know when you're ready to argue why the data point you're asking about really matters. Bonus points if you actually find that data point first.
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Old 21st December 2017, 01:46 PM   #71
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nvm

Last edited by NoahFence; 21st December 2017 at 01:48 PM. Reason: to prevent further derail.
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Old 21st December 2017, 03:01 PM   #72
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Interestingly (and I haven't seen this mentioned in the two or three media outlets I skimmed), this GA resolution was not voted on in a regular GA session, but an emergency special session was convened - only for the 11th time in UN history. 7 of the other 10 occasions were about the ME, too (and I presume all involved Israel, though I didn't check in detail).

They have a news report up on this vote:
128 for
9 against
35 abstentions

Actually, 128 for is a pretty low number, and 35 a pretty high number for GE votes on Israel - for example, just yesterday, a vote was taken in the current regular session on a Resolution about "Permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources", and the result was 163-6-11
I haven't found a break-down detailing which countries abstained. I heard on German TV news that Germany and most other EU countries voted "for".
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Old 21st December 2017, 03:05 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I heard on German TV news that Germany and most other EU countries voted "for".
I'd seen a report that Germany had typically abstained on Israel related votes, but this time they'd decided that the fate of Jerusalem must be determined by the final solution.
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Old 21st December 2017, 06:15 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Actually, 128 for is a pretty low number, and 35 a pretty high number for GE votes on Israel - for example, just yesterday, a vote was taken in the current regular session on a Resolution about "Permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources", and the result was 163-6-11
I haven't found a break-down detailing which countries abstained. I heard on German TV news that Germany and most other EU countries voted "for".
According to Nikki Haley's tweet, it were 65 countries who abstained. Quickly scanning I only see Croatia, Czech Republic and Romania as EU members on that list.

Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I'd seen a report that Germany had typically abstained on Israel related votes, but this time they'd decided that the fate of Jerusalem must be determined by the final solution.
That's an unfortunate slip of the pen.
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Old 21st December 2017, 06:35 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I haven't found a break-down detailing which countries abstained. I heard on German TV news that Germany and most other EU countries voted "for".

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Old 21st December 2017, 06:47 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
According to Nikki Haley's tweet, it were 65 countries who abstained. Quickly scanning I only see Croatia, Czech Republic and Romania as EU members on that list.

These are the 9 who voted against the resolution (<5% of world population, without the US and Israel safely <1%), plus 35 who actively abstained, plus 21 who didn't show up. Hungary, Latvia, Poland and Bosnia-Herzegovina among the abstaining Europeans in addition to the ones you mentioned. Ukraine and Georgia not showing up.

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Old 21st December 2017, 07:10 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why would you say their votes matter? They can't compel anything.
One Mister Saddam Hussein would like to have a quiet word with you, regarding 1990-1991 and your incredibly false statement. So too would a few people in Korea. If you actually read the articles around which the collective security provisions are written, you will find that the UN can in fact compel, and it takes the UNSCR to do it. It's not often done.
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:22 PM   #78
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess? Its proceedings are pretty distinct from the General Assembly, which is what I was referring to. UNSC votes are independent of UN GA votes. And unlike GA votes, SC votes actually matter.
The UNSC can't actually compel anything any more than GA votes can.

However between the two, GA resolutions are a more accurate description of the opinion of the UN's membership as a whole because GA resolutions cannot be vetoed by anyone.
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Last edited by Checkmite; 21st December 2017 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 21st December 2017, 09:43 PM   #79
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
One Mister Saddam Hussein would like to have a quiet word with you, regarding 1990-1991 and your incredibly false statement. So too would a few people in Korea. If you actually read the articles around which the collective security provisions are written, you will find that the UN can in fact compel, and it takes the UNSCR to do it. It's not often done.
Those did not actually force nations to take an action. They have no power to enforce their own rulings.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 03:09 AM   #80
ddt
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
These are the 9 who voted against the resolution (<5% of world population, without the US and Israel safely <1%), plus 35 who actively abstained, plus 21 who didn't show up. Hungary, Latvia, Poland and Bosnia-Herzegovina among the abstaining Europeans in addition to the ones you mentioned. Ukraine and Georgia not showing up.
Thank you for the correction, I feel stupid for overlooking half of the EU members on that list. I figured it must have been including the no-shows why Haley got such a high number.
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